Talk:Winston Churchill

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[edit] Churchill's speech impediment

Several original quotes at my site www.stutterers.org - very convincing that Churchill stuttered. I've added that link to the Churchill section.

Thanks Keith Sharp Toronto May 2, 2008

Keith1952 (talk) 09:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith1952 (talk • contribs) 19:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


Since you reference them in mentioning the list, may I direct your attention to the Churchill Centre's rebuttal of the stuttering claim. Without forcing the point, I wonder whether the sources cited are quite as authoritative as one might wish and, more to the point, how much they were based on original research. All too often, as this article has seen -- q.v., Tonypandy -- a single source is referenced by many others, each reinforcing themselves. The and reference to your site can be left by a simple change to the tone of the language.Czrisher (talk) 21:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Further to the above, I notice the article suggests churchill may have suffered from cluttering. Leaving aside that I had never heard of this before, the article essentially only cites one source for this, from the guy who seems to have invented it. I have lately been reading Jenkins book about Churchill, which so far hasn't mentioned speech impediments at all. It has certainly mentioned the quality of his speeches, which seems to go against the suggestion of muddled speaking which would be associated with what is described in the wiki article about cluttering. From having heard some of his speeches, I can perhaps see why some people might argue he had some sort of impediment. However, there seems to be at least disagreement on stammering and very little at all about cluttering to merit mentioning what is essentially a novel idea. Sandpiper (talk) 01:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The 'cluttering' discussion indeed appears to be a novel idea with thin evidence. It would be appropriate to remove it. Keith Sharp Toronto Keith1952 (talk) 12:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Winston_Churchill#Funeral

« The funeral also saw the largest assemblage of statesmen in the world until the 2005 funeral of Pope John Paul II.[172] »

Trouble : the Tito (yougoslavian leader)'s article say exactly the same thing, for 1980 :

« His funeral drew many world statesmen.[19] Based on the number of attending politicians and state delegations, it was the largest statesman funeral in history.[20] » from Tito#Final_years.

Who is true ? 220.135.4.212 (talk) 20:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC) The pope isn't a statesman now is he?--87.210.52.227 (talk) 12:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

  • That link describes a statesman as someone with a long and respected career in politics at the national and international level. I think a pope would qualify, particularly that particular one. He was even elected. Sandpiper (talk) 01:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No criticism section?

Why is it that almost every major politician, from George Bush to Clinton, seems to have a criticism section, but not Churchhill? Aside from the Indian Independence controversy, this article seems to paint him as a saint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtd00123 (talk • contribs) 20:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

  • probably this article is written from the alternative viewpoint of avoiding arguing whether someone was good or bad, but presenting controversies as they arose historically, spread through the text? Sandpiper (talk) 01:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree. The article is far from critical; look at the section about India, pre-war remarks about Mussolini a.s.o. To me, this contextual placement is far preferrable to a separate "criticism" section. Asav (talk) 17:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Europe's soft underbelly

Shouldn't there be a brief mention of Churchill's alternate invasion plan after Normandy, i.e. diverting troops heading for southern France to the Balkans? Asav (talk) 17:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Buggery

Oh dear. Havn't read the article yet, but already there have been a couple of sentences about cluttering and a couple about a disproved charge of buggery. At the risk of repeating myself, and noting that some sources are claimed to have mentioned this, I have been working through a several hundred page modern biography which did not feel either point was sufficiently important to mention. These may be sensational points, but are they sufficiently important for a short description such as this? Particularly when both are right at the start of an article which quite a few people may give up reading shortly after establishing he was a politician prone to speech impediments and accusations of buggery? Sandpiper (talk) 01:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you make a good point, Sandpiper. I've looked at the source given and do not think it appropriate. Apparently the account doesn't come from a biography, but rather an interview with a biographer. Moreover, the wording in our article is not faithful to what was said. Churchill won a libel suit on this. We are an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. I'm removing the statement until someone can: a) prove that this is notable, 2) source it appropriately, and, c) word it correctly. We do not want Wikipedia to be the main source on the Internet for an inaccurate statement of this nature. Sunray (talk) 02:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I am in complete agreement that it should be removed. Its barely covered, if at all in any of the Churchill biographies. However I am in favour of keeping the mention of the speech impediments, albeit making the section more concise? LordHarris 17:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] war correspondent

The article implies he chased around the world looking for wars so he could report them and earn money. According to Jenkins, who even gets mentioned as source in that para, he chased after wars because he had a driving ambition to be important and rightly figured that to be noticed you have to take part in things. He set out to be a ruler, though it sounds like he also rather enjoyed war (though disapproved of slaughter unlike a number of his contemporaries). His war correspondence also made him famous, which was probably at least as important to his career as was the money gained from it. Similarly, the article quotes Deeds as arguing Churchill became a batallion commander at the front because they had alcohol available. Jenkins explains this was because he was at that point in his career jobless, having got himself fired from the admiralty for the dardinels debacle. He therefore politically needed to be a hero, and one way to do it was to become a field commander. His correspondence with his wife shows the two of them discussing the political advantages of his field position, contrasted against the not insignificant risk of being killed. He returned to government at the earliest opportunity, with another little sticker for his CV. He seems to have enjoyed the curious position as being both an army officer and a MP, that he could pick and choose and swap between the two jobs as he pleased. Sandpiper (talk) 02:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] first lord of the admiralty

The article does not explain that as first lord of the admiralty he had command of naval forces, not army ones. Thus he used naval troops and naval funding for his own pet projects when it might more reasonably have been army resources used. The navy and army were significantly in competition rather than cooperation. In part, the Dardanells disaster had a contribution from inter-force rivalry and failure to cooperate over a joint operation which was Churchills (naval) project. It also suffered because he failed to agree with his own admirals. He became chancellor of the dutchy of lancaster after demotion from the admiralty because it also allowed him to remain part of the war cabinet. However, when it became apparent he would be forced out of the war cabinet he resigned from the government also. Sandpiper (talk) 02:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] machine guns

After a bit of research I see that the very first version of this page contained the claim that Churchill advocated the use of machine guns against striking miners. I find this somewhat un-credible, though it has persisted through the article for years. Sources anyone, or should it be deleted? I have seen comments that machine guns were set up at pits, but that is not the same thing. Sandpiper (talk) 22:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] sub-articles

This article has spawned some sub articles, but still has massive chunks here going over the same ground. That might be ok, but I see the two alternate versions are starting to diverge noticeably. I would suggest anyone thinking of amending this article should check the supposed longer version first, and consider amending that as the primary version of this page. The sections here listed as having 'main articles' elsewhere should be summaries of those main articles. Sandpiper (talk) 22:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving

Substantial parts of this discussion seem to be missing. Archive 2 ends with an entry from 29 August 2005, and Archive 3 starts with an entry on 1 October 2007. Two years of discussions are are not on the present talk page and are not archived. Was there a glitch somewhere in the archiving? Kablammo (talk) 13:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Looks like the archives have been incorrectly named and that is what is causing the problem. Keith D (talk) 16:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the fix. Regards, Kablammo (talk) 16:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First state funeral since 1914 ....

In the article as written it states that this was the first State Funeral since 1914. However, the UK granted a state funeral to Sir Edward Carson. Please see the below from his wikipedia page.

Upon his death, in 1935, he was one of the few non-monarchs to receive a United Kingdom state funeral.

I suspect that this conflict is because Carson was laid to rest in Belfast rather than London but the UK includes Belfast just as it includes London and Carson was certainly given a State Funeral by the UK Government in 1935.

What do people think?

Regards

Jonnie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.202.134 (talk) 15:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)