Talk:WingTsun

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[edit] Userboxes

For those that are interested in this sort of thing, I created a userbox for those that study WT, you can use it by adding the following to your user page.

{{User:DarkCryst/Userboxes/WingTsun}}

User:Aeontech has created a variant of this for those that also teach WT, you can use it by adding the following:

{{User:Aeontech/Userboxes/WingTsun}}

They add you to the correct categories, and hopefully someone will find them useful :) DarkCryst 21:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

WingTsun is the correct trademarked spelling of the branch founded by Leung Ting, not Wing Tsun. BlitzDefence is the correct spelling of the condensed form of WingTsun, not Blitz Defence.

  • Technically true, but it is used throughout the world as "Wing Tsun" in common form. When referring explicitly to the organization it would be more correct to use WingTsun however.

[edit] External Links

External links should conform to Wikipedia's external links guide.

In general if a link:

  • "does not provide a unique resource beyond ... the article"
  • contains "objectionable amounts of advertising"
  • "require[s] external applications (such as Flash...)"
  • is "A website that you own or maintain (unless it is the official site of the subject of the article)."

Do not include it! Regarding the last point - "if it is relevant and informative, mention it as a possible link on the talk page and wait for someone else to include it, or include the information directly in the article."

Like many martial arts pages too many external, irrelevant, links are a problem. I think we should narrow it down to important ones, as most of the ones getting linked seem to be specific schools (some claim "national association" level, but lack evidence of it being anything but name only). I'd recommend keeping just the International and European Association websites, and cutting everything else, unless there is an obvious reason to keep it. DarkCryst 22:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Martial Arts Project

Is any practitioner of WT going to be participating in the Wikipedia Martial Arts Project? (a5y 19:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC))

heh, "practitioner" is very specific in WT - and I think there are only 4 people in the USA that have reached that rank :) However I'm studying WT (admittedly low level atm) and have already tried to tidy things up and bring it closer to the projects goals. I'll continue that as best I can. DarkCryst 03:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Why are there two articles for the same subject?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.193.182 (talk) 08:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


There's not. This article is about Leung Ting's branch and art. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 16:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] famous practitioners?

Not really sure what to even put there... Emin is certainly one - but I suppose people will argue that he does not belong on this page since leaving IWTA and starting his own organization. And at any rate, there are hundreds of high-level people in Europe (not so many in the USA) - what, should _all_ of them be put here? And assuming "famous" means known outside the WT community, then even Leung Ting barely qualifies - perhaps Bruce Lee would be the only example that's truly famous according to those criteria... Aeontech 02:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I assumed "famous" being both famous in the real world, and also additionally within the martial arts world. Bruce Lee barely studied WC (a lot of JKD seems to be trying to replicate things in WC that he hadn't learnt) and is only really mentioned by WC people trying to capitalise on the Bruce Lee legend. Considering that there are.. well probably less that 10 'famous' martial artists, and most of those are actually martial art stunt performers (Jackie Chan comes to mind) I think 'famous' should be also famous within Martial Arts. (speaking of that.. Sammo Hung is a friend and student of Leung Ting, so he should probably be listed).
Also - just because they aren't studying now, doesn't mean they aren't a famous practioner - Emin certainly knowns WT, and is famous, so... he's a famous "person who knows and uses WT" which is pretty much all you need to be listed I would say. Especially as WT seems to have heavily influenced his own school.
Just my thoughts :) DarkCryst 18:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wing Tsun And Wing Chun merge

There are a few derived subsidiary styles off the traditional Wing Chun, but all of them nonetheless carry the same authentic chinese name and all of them recognize themselves as belonging to the original Wing Chun style.

The style of Wing Tsun was only 'founded' in 1947 and is really not all too different from the original Wing Chun, therefore the two should be merged and WT to come under a sub-section of the Wing Chun page to prevent confusion. I also notice the original page creator attempting to advertise his/her own school and attempting to partition from the association with the original Wing Chun as well as emphasising that Wing Tsun is more prefered than Wing Chun, need some NPOV there!

--WiKID Daryl 15:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the idea for the vandalism you did or that it would justify what you're proposing. Completely unfounded. --Marty Goldberg 15:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

U CALL THIS VANDALISM? you call a Proposal vandalism? i have written a whole paragraph of reasonable explanation as to why i proposed a merge, and WHAT reason have have you to justify calling this vandalism? NONE is the answer WgungFu or whatever your name is! Well you better come up with one, otherwise i don't deserved to be accused. And i don't care if you are a patroller or member of the martial arts project, if you do not justify your accusation i think your integrity is pretty much questionable and i will bring it to the admins and mods if i have to. . If i was vandalising i would have actually moved the page if you are smart enough to realise. And considering WingTsun did branch off from WingChun i think it is only fair that it comes under WC. That said, i don't mean i dont recognize WT, but intended it to be under a section on the Wing Chun page, which would be clearer and helpful to those confused by the name variations. I would have actually moved the page if i intended to be selfish and vandal if you are smart enough to realise! You may disagree merging the two, BUT YOU CANNOT ACCUSE ME OF VANDALISING BECAUSE IT'S NOT!

--WiKID Daryl 06:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, your edits to the main article were vandalism (which is what I was refering to) and the only one whose integrity (and emotional state) is in question is you. Full of rediculous claims (Leung Ting was born in 1947, so it would be a little hard to "create" wing tsun then. Leung Ting is not dead, hence there is no "late" Leung Ting, which is slandor. Bruce Lee did not study under Leung Ting or his Wing Tsun), POV statments ("little difference in skills and style"), and more. If you had simply put forth a suggestion to merge and not done those edits and claims, that would have been different. It also would most likely have been declined by consensus, since the Wing Tsun page had been moved off the Wing Chun page in the first place. Likewise, it is viewed as a seperate version of the art by its founder and its practitioners, which is why it was also moved off. Other "versions" and "branches" also have their own entries on Wikipedia as well, and would make no sense to merge with the main Wing Chun page - which is about the generic art as a whole, not individual branches and versions. All branches are part of the whole, it makes no sense. Threatening to call in mods and admins because you don't like being told you vandalised an article is funny actually, they have much more important things to deal with and quite frankly, their roles are well defined here already. Lastly, questioning someone's intelligence and then stating "WgungFu or whatever your name is" also adds humor to your claims, when my name is clearly stated here as my signature. --Marty Goldberg 07:40, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


If you did not realise already, saying 'whatever your name is' is a ridicule of sarcasm, meaning either i saw your name and forgot it because if its insignificance, or i could not care less to find out. And that's quite obvious when i point out your online name as Wgungfu, is it not? Going back to the article i already corrected some of the factual mistakes made in my first edit here already. But i do want to apologize for over-reacting, but what i proposed was well-intended, and you called me a vandal without reasoning or informing me why, and that was impolite and offensive.Bold Note i did not know this page was split from WC! If a merge is not appropriate, You have got to admit, the two styles are principally the same, so i think this page should have more inferences to the original art.--WiKID Daryl 07:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

You obviously have very little knowledge of WT. They are very different in teaching style, and the application of the principles behind the style. To say "the two styles are principally the same" demonstrates your lack of knowledge on the subject (not to mention the mistakes you made in your edits). References to the original art are made right at the top where it says "WingTsun Kung Fu (alternatively Wing Tsun, or 咏春) is a branch of the Kung Fu style Wing Chun developed by Leung Ting." what more needs to be said? DarkCryst 21:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Varketh 14:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC) Hi guys, I'd just like to add my thoughts to this section. WT and WC share very little in common, the main reason for this being that Wing Chun is taught differently by every single teacher, having no set-down standard format or structure. What I'm getting at here is that there is very little evidence at all to suggest that WT and WC articles merge, as Wing Chun (as taught by Great Grand Master Yip Man) is a completely different style to WingTsun (as taught by Great Grand Master Leung Ting). WT contains principles, threories and concepts that are missing from Wing Chun. WT relies on sensitivity and logic, WC does not. WT never stops evolving as both Great Grand Master Leung Ting and Grand Master Kernspecht are both still alive and constantly improving and updating their students. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97nmajore (talk • contribs) 14:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Titles

Hi there, I've recently noticed that Grand Master Kernspecht does not have his title when his name is presented in the WingTsun article. I just wandered why, and can it be added? Seeing as Wgungfu will not let me change it. Varketh 14:42, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

No, titles are not included on Wikipedia martial arts articles per WikiProject_Martial_arts#Honorifics_and_academic_titles. --Marty Goldberg 14:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Please see revision, as per Honorific and Academic titles article. Hope this suits better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97nmajore (talk • contribs) 14:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Its a start but actually, you also need references stating as such and you also need to describe the process he used to obtain such title as per Honorific and Academic titles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wgungfu (talk • contribs) 15:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

He is a 10th Grade Master, what more is there to say? He was awarded the title by Leung Ting (I can't tell you when, until I check his books). What type of citation or reference would be best to include? Does it need to be from an independent source or is citing one of his own books acceptable? Varketh 15:09, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wing Tsun characters

  • Wing Chun(詠春) is a South kungfu, created in Foshan, should be cantonese speaking.(詠) Wing only means 'Chant',it does not mean 'forever'.

--Aeontech (talk) 09:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Since Yong Chun(永春) is bring from Fujian,The full name is Yong Chun White Crane.Here Yong(永) means 'Forever',it does not mean 'chant'.
    • I'm not sure what your point is. There's dozens of families of WC, WT is just one of them.

--Aeontech (talk) 09:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Actually, they are different style of kungfu.Maybe Some guys want to make money by useing the name of 'Wing Chun', they confuse the other with Yong Chun,or 'Shaolin what what', or 'Chisin what what'.Ask thoese guys who is their Sifu and Sijo.--Koonleg50 (talk) 01:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Lineage is a notoriously thorny problem, but what does it have to do with the characters used in the name?
  • Both sets(two sets-i.e they are different) of characters are pronounced Yong Chun in mandarin.
  • The article is about wing chun(詠春), not(永春). Nobody here is confusing the two.
  • In wing chun history,no sifu's will used 永to replace 詠,It is not respect to the founder Mr.Leung Jan.
  • Wing Tsun (詠春) is nothing related with Yong Chun(永春).
    • he founder of yong chun is Chisin the monk,then Luk Kam(red boat yong chun),then Fung Siu Ching(yong Chun),then Yuen Chi Wan And Yuen Kei San brothers.
    • But the Far Kuen man,Tang Sung,claim that his sifu Chu Chung Man is the grand student of Fung Siu Ching. Actually, Chu Chung Man's Sifu is Far Kuen Wong Jee Shing (黃哲誠).He created 'Shaolin Weng Chun Kuen, ('Sholim Yong Chun' )in 1960 at Hong Kong. His Student Tang jik said it is Far Kuen, not Wing Tsun.

Special:Contributions/218.255.39.233|218.255.39.233]] (talk) 09:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

      • citation?
Yong Chun is simply the Mandarin pronunciation of the characters. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Wing(詠) Chun is South Kungfu, It should be Cantonese pronunciation.--218.255.39.233 (talk) 01:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
However this is an encyclopedia, and Mandarin is often included as well (being as its the one of the main dialects for scholarly resources and publications). --Marty Goldberg (talk) 01:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

+Wing Chun(詠春) is a South kungfu, created in Foshan, should be cantonese speaking.(詠)Wing only means "Chant',it does not mean 'forever',Ok.

  • Since Yong Chun is bring from Fujian,The full name is Yong Chun White Crane.Here Yong(永) means 'Forever',it does not mean 'chant'.
  • Actually, they are different style of kungfu.Maybe Some guys want to make money by useing the name of 'Wing Chun', they confuse the other with Yong Chun,or 'Shaolin what what', or 'Chisin what what'.Ask thoese guys who is their Sifu and Sijo.--Koonleg50 (talk) 01:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)--Koonleg50 (talk) 01:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


A) This is an encyclopedia. Terms are used in the more common Mandarin as well as Cantonese. Both sets of characters are pronounced Yong Chun in mandarin.
B) The article is about wing chun, not white crane. Nobody here is confusing the two.
C) In wing chun history, sifu's have used both characters.
D) The section you keep altering is referenced. It is against policy to alter a referenced section like you continue to try and do based on WP:OR. You can certainly provide counter references, but do not continue to alter referenced sections based on personal opinion.
E) It is also against style guidelines to keep trying to create a Wiki link for a page that does not exist, as you keep trying to do for the yong chun wording. More than one editor has stated this to you, yet you continue to ignore it. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 02:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
  • It is not personal opinion.Wing Chun is a English name for '詠春', Do anyone disagree that?
    • Than who had used '永春' to replace '詠春'?
    • '詠春'is a complete set of kungfu ,the name had used by Leung Jan?
    • What is (永春)'Yong Chun'? Who is founder, passed to who.And Who is your sifu? Any connection to Leung Jan's family tree? —--Koonleg50 (talk) 06:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


A) Once again, without verifiable references, it constitutes your personal opinion and is subject to WP:OR.
B) Numerous people historically used '永春', including Chan Yiu-Min, Lui Yiu-Chai, Lai MiuHin, (All students of Chan Wah Shun), as well as Chu Chong-Man, Lai Hip-Chi, DaiFaMin Kam, Pan Nam, etc. etc.
C) Yong Chun is a pronunciation of characters, not a "system". Both '永春' and'詠春' are pronounced "Yong Chun" in Mandarin.
D) Someone's sifu has no bearing on editing on Wikipedia. You don't even have to be a wing chun practitioner to edit here. What you do have to have are valid references, and the ability to follow established editing and content policies. That includes *not* removing references and referenced sections. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 06:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I am seconding Wgungfu here; especially point C. Both character sets should be listed, as both are valid. Yes, Leung Ting's WT uses 詠春 characters, and nobody's arguing with that. Both sets of characters are valid however. It's the same as arguing whether Wing Chun or Ving Tsun or Weng Tshun is the correct name - all three are just different ways of spelling chinese characters, and none of them are absolutely correct when we pronounce them. --Aeontech (talk) 09:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] White Crane / Jee Shim WC listed as separate martial arts

After a bit of research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Wing_Chun had the most information, ironically enough), it seems that while White Crane Wing Chun (永春白鶴拳) is a separate martial art in which the 永春 characters refer to the city it comes from, so it is fair to list it here.

However, the Jee Shim Wing Chun traces their lineage back to Leung Jan ([1]), who is in the main WC lineage, so it should be strictly speaking considered a branch of WC, not a separate martial art. It is even listed as a branch of WC on the Branches of Wing Chun article [2].

As such, it would be fair to either list ALL WC branches as using these characters in the third paragraph of the article, or none of them, and refer the reader to the main WC article for information about other branches.

Ideas?--Aeontech (talk) 16:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


That's not the case. The Jee Shim Wing Chun link you provided is not Jee Shim Weng chun. That's some people from Yip Man linneage who appropriated the name for their school, they're students of William Cheung and Wong Shun Leung. The actual Jee Shim (Chi Sim) people most certainly do no trace their linneage through Leung Jan. The actual Jee Shim Weng Chun and Wey Yan affiliated linneage is at [www.weng-chun.com]. Likewise, the reason its on the linneage page (and I had something to do with that), is because there's been so much historical mingling between that and wing chun (some sifu's were sifu's in both) that it is considered by many to be related to the wing chun family as a whole, including its current practitioners. As far as the village, that is correct. The characters are also used for a village and a hall. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 21:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


Well, I was just going by the link that Koonleg50 provided. The school at the link he provided does indeed trace it back to Leung Jan. What do you suggest? 76.21.23.72 (talk) 19:41, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Again, its not a valid reference. Its just somebody from Yip Man line who started calling their school "Jee Shim Weng Chun". --Marty Goldberg (talk) 20:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so, does Jee Shim originate from the Wing Chun city/village, like the White Crane style mentioned earlier? Ie, can we list them together in the same sentence?--Aeontech (talk) 02:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
No, Jee Shim doesn't tie itself to the village. Mythically, it ties itself to the "southern shaolin temple" and Jee Shim, the monk - hence the name. Stylistically, it resembles general hung village arts. As I had been trying to explain to Koon, the characters for Weng Chun are used in various places - within our art, within the jee shim weng chun art, within young chun/weng chun white crane, and there's a hall in southern china that uses it as well. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 03:05, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
You agree that Weng Chun are used in hung village arts. Actually,Pang Nam ,Cheung Po and Chu Chung Man are the men of Hung village. --Koonleg50 (talk) 05:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Once again, that's not what I said, and once again leave your WP:OR and disruptive editing practices out of these articles. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 16:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)