Talk:Windsor, Berkshire/Archive 1

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The proposed target for the move altered at 20:30, 4 October 2005 by Francs2000

Requested move

Windsor should disambiguate, as Windsor, Ontario is at least as notable as the subject of this article.

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• Support -- SwissCelt 14:20, 3 October 2005 (UTC) As amended- see below.
• Oppose -- Windsor is synonymous throughout the world with its 1,000 year old royal residence. Its history and importance is far greater than any other place of the same name. MRSC 14:30, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

  Comment: The subject of this article is the town, not the royal residence. There already is an article about the royal residence, at Windsor Castle. Perhaps Windsor should redirect to that? -- SwissCelt 14:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. Windsor, its castle and its royal house are famous throughout the world. Windsor, Ontario, may be bigger, but it's nowhere near as significant historically or as well-known. -- Necrothesp 15:23, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose --I agree with the comments of Mrsteviec and Necrothesp above. If people want to find other meanings of Windsor they can go to the disambiguation page. Secondly, on the basis of it's political and cultural importance, Windsor deserves it's own entry on the same basis as Oxford, Cambridge and London and many other historic places. If Windsor is changed then it is setting a precedent and all such places should be disambiguated which would be a time-consuming and pedantic waste of time.Vivenot 15:30, 3 October 2005 (UTC) as amended below.
• Oppose on two main grounds - The subject of this article, with a whole millennium of history to its name, is considerably more notable than Windsor, Ontario. The subject of this article is also the original use of the word Windsor that has been replicated throughout the world. Incidentally if it is moved it should not be moved to Windsor, England because that goes against naming conventions that have a taken a lot of work to put right - the correct name would be Windsor, Berkshire. -- Francs2000 15:48, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

  comment doesn't the castle predate the town? And isn't the proper naming convention for English towns, xxx, England ?132.205.45.110 18:40, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

  No the town predates the castle (at least it's name does). And the naming convention afaik is xxx, County. -- Francs2000 21:12, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

  Besides which the problem with calling it Windsor, England is that there is also a Windsor in Cornwall and Lincolnshire, both of which are in England. -- Francs2000 21:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

• Support Let's not have the tail wagging the dog.--Mais oui! 18:32, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support it needs to disambig between Windsors - England, Ontario, Castle (England), Family (Royal House of England), Station (Montreal), etc. 132.205.45.110 18:37, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Such a page exists here Windsor (disambiguation). It is as yet unclear what is to be gained by moving Windsor, the original use of the name, from its current position. MRSC 19:00, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support --Image:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 19:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support. This discussion is backwards. Here is the guideline:

  Some topics have a primary topic which editors agree is the primary meaning for the term (Rome, for example). In this case the disambiguation page is named Rome (disambiguation), and the primary topic keeps the topic word or phrase. Ensure that the disambiguation page links not to the primary meaning, but to an unambiguous meaning (Rome, Italy rather than Rome, for example). The ambiguous meaning might redirect to the unambiguous meaning, or visa versa. In other cases, where there is no such consensus, disambiguation pages are named after the topic itself (Table, for example).

• There is obviously no consensus here, so the disambig page should be at Windsor. — mendel ☎ 19:23, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support as per Mendel. Zhatt 19:54, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support disambig. This discussion is backwards (as per Mendel). Move should have been done and not requested. — Image:Ca-on-sb.gif  UTSRelativity (Talk)  20:17, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Admittedly it's not Athens or Alexandria, but it's still "the primary meaning for the term". –Hajor 20:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose - Rubbish. Practically nobody in Australia has heard of Windsor Ontario. Jooler 20:37, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support. (but Windsor, Berkshire not Windsor, England). cf Perth where both Perth, Australia and Perth, Scotland have good claims to be the primary topic, the first on size grounds and the second on historical grounds. In that case which is similar to the Windsor one, we agreed to make Perth a disambiguation page some time ago. And so it has remained despite occasional efforts to change it one way or the other. -- Derek Ross | Talk 20:39, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support The issue is not whether a group of people in one region knows of a particular context of Windsor, but rather how many such groups exist, and their numbers. In north-eastern North America (and most of Canada, obviously), the term Windsor is overwhelmingly associated with the Canadian city for several reasons, primarily its association with the NA auto industry and as a major throughway for trade between Canada and mid-western USA. Roughly 60-80 million people make this association, at a minimum. In this case, I think there is sufficient reason to use Windsor as a disambiguation page. Mindmatrix 20:58, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
  • No it's what most people are looking for when they look up the word Windsor. Take a look at the "what links here" to this page and then to the other Windsors. Clearly with a thousand years of history attached to it the VAST majority of links for Windsor are going to be for this one. This topic deserves primary disambiguation. Jooler 21:19, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Actually they're about the same (what links here) -- Francs2000 21:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Eh? There's less than 50 links to Windsor Ontario, and several hundred for Windsor Berkshire Jooler 21:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
        • Well I don't know what you've been looking at but I count over 300. -- Francs2000 22:13, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
    • It's not the length of history that affects the distribution of links to this page; it's that the majority of links are already directed to the currently existing titles. Most links to this page are intended for the Windsor in Berkshire because the Windsor in Berkshire is the existing topic of this page, and the majority of links intended for Windsor, Ontario already point directly to Windsor, Ontario. In other words, this is an entirely tautological argument which has no bearing on the matter. Bearcat 23:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
      • You misunderstood. I referring to the number of links to each page. But as it turns out I miscounted anyway. Jooler 22:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
  • You say, Roughly 60-80 million people make this association, at a minimum. In this case, I think there is sufficient reason to use Windsor as a disambiguation page. What about the 60 to 80 million Brits who naturally associate Windsor with the town in England, leave alone the countless millions of other individuals around the world whose primary association is with the town with the castle in it? It feels to me that there is a bit of North American bias going on here. -- Francs2000 21:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
    • No, it would be a North American bias if people were arguing in favour of Windsor, Ontario owning the undisambiguated title Windsor, but that's not what's being requested here. What's being requested is a disambiguation page. Bearcat 23:57, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
    • The current situation is a pro-UK bias; moving this article and putting thr dab page here would correct that. <sarcasm>But obviously, a pro-UK bias is a good thing, since it helps cancel out the pro-Merkin bias that everything online must automatically be assumed to have.</sarcasm> -- AJR 01:51, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support Personally, I would think of the House of Windsor, Windsor Castle and Windsor, Ontario before Windsor, England - Jord 22:02, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support with move to Windsor, Berkshire in line with naming conventions, rather than to Windsor, England. Rationale as per Mendel. Being a Brit, I think of "our" Windsor first, but from looking around online, Windsor, Ontario seems to be just as notable. -- AJR 01:51, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose: It is not the case that the north-eastern United States thinks first of Windsor, Ontario. I would believe it of Michigan; but it is false of Massachusetts or Pennsylvania. Since the argument of numbers is fallacious (and in any case, it is an Anglo-American dialect argument,which is deprecated), the question is whether the dab page is more convenient at Windsor or Windsor (disambiguation).With all due respect to Windsor, Ontario, more people looking for Windsor want this page, if only because many of those looking for "Windsor, Ontario" are searching with that phrase. Septentrionalis
• Support making this page a dab page. I think of Windsor in reference to the castle and the "house of..". The town in isolation isn't that interesting. Secretlondon 04:03, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support move to Windsor, Berkshire and creation of disambig. While I appreciate the significant history of the original place, the economic and geographical importance of other places of that name weigh it out. Radagast 12:31, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• I Support the move to Windsor, Berkshire and not Windsor, England - I initially opposed to the whole idea because I thought it was just down to the Ontario versus the Berkshire options, however bearing in mind that the terms Windsor Castle and House of Windsor are just as popular if not more so then moving the disambig page to Windsor would probably be the best option. -- Francs2000 17:14, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• I would support the dab page, but not solely because of Windsor, Ontario. Windsor Castle, House of Windsor and two other Windsors in England alone strongly suggest that the primary title should be the dab. But also support Windsor, Berkshire. Proposer needs to be aware that when disambiguation is necessary for English towns and cities, they should be to Town, County, not Town, England. Bearcat 18:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

• Proposer supports the proposal as amended. (This supersedes my initial vote.) -- SwissCelt 05:30, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

• Comment - I have altered the target page for the move in the initial proposal above to Windsor, Berkshire so that the move is in line with Wikipedia naming conventions for British places. -- Francs2000 20:34, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Primary topic. Proteus (Talk) 21:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support the dab page. --Angelo 22:14, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose, keep with primary topic disambiguation. James F. (talk) 00:24, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose, the Windsor with the castle must be the place that I expect to see if I go for Windsor. Andreww 11:32, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Support. I'd support this move even if Windsor, Ontario didn't exist. I would contend that 'Windsor' in UK media usage usually means the castle, not the town. Morwen - Talk 15:58, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

• Support as suggested by User:Bearcat. I am thinking in terms of a potential wikipedia user who wants to look up Windsor. They might be looking for the castle, the royal family, any of the towns in England or Windsor, Ontario. We have no way of knowing which. A dab page would point them in the right direction and inform them of the other uses of the name. So, it is not an (unresolvable) issue of relative notability but of usability as an encyclopaedia. Luigizanasi 16:53, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support I have changed my mind and now support the move to Windsor, Berkshire in line with the naming conventions for British places. Vivenot 14:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support. I think it is unfortunate that in proposing this change, SwissCelt chose to talk about notability. This change has absolutely nothing to do with notability, and everything to do with usability of the encyclopedia. Some places are so universally well known that formal disambiguation seems pedantic and hence gets in the way of usability. For example, only a dolt or a perverse pedant would be confused by an unqualified reference to 'London' or 'New York'. It is clear from the debate above that 'Windsor' does not fall into this category, and properly disambiguating both the major contenders is the correct way to go forward. -- Chris j wood 14:25, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

• Comment: I did so because this article has apparently been at both Windsor, England and Windsor, Berkshire. However, someone has moved it to its present location, thus preventing the move back without an administrator's intervention. Notability is thus an issue, as the alternative uses of "Windsor" will need to be of sufficient notability to overcome the bias towards primary topic disambiguation. I believe that they are of sufficient notability; not just Windsor, Ontario, but House of Windsor, Windsor Castle, etc. -- SwissCelt 20:14, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

• Support as Windsor is more associated with House of Windsor than with the town. --Monkbel 10:11, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support move to Windsor, Berkshire on usability grounds. — Dale Arnett 22:05, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
• Comment. I'm currently counting 8 for oppose and 22 for support. When will the change be made? Zhatt 18:57, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support. The castle is more famous than the town in Berkshire. -Hapsiainen 19:15, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

User:UTSRelativity moved Windsor to Windsor, Berkshire at 20:35, October 12, 2005 --Zhatt 17:28, 13 October 2005 (UTC)