Talk:Wind: A Breath of Heart

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[edit] Regarding the title of the article...

>Rvalles (Wind -a breath of heart- moved to Wind 〜a breath of heart〜: Real name is like this.)

You are wrong.

For the love of god, it doesn't take a genius to read the title of the damned game. Also, your adding tons of pictures affects the readability of the article. Please stop being an idiot.

Reverted your changes. First of all, mind your manners. We're a community and if you can't do this much please refrain from editing here, since you'll be not welcome. Having said that, I don't think there are too many images or they disturb at all reading, specially considering how they're thumbnailed and completelly aligned on the right of the page (maybe you're using some broken theme or webbrowser?). The title... It can be discussed, I'm not sure a subtitle should be treated like that, but anyways the japanese seem to be using that character, not -. For the sake of keeping history, let's better discuss what the title should be here, and later have some experienced user (which do have privileges to move pages, like me) move the page.Rvalles 02:59, 1 October 2005 (UTC)


Both of you, please review Wikipedia:Avoid personal remarks. I have "crossed out" a few phrases which don't seem directly related to the task of improving this article. Uncle Ed 03:08, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Someone should write something about the actual anime and not just the game.

[edit] For the love of god...

Is it so hard to go to the official website, which is LINKED TO ON THE ARTICLE, and look at the title of the game?

http://www.minori.ph/lineup/wind.html

"Wind -a breath of heart-".

Let's take a look at some of the other sites linked to on the article.

http://www.alchemist-net.co.jp/products/wind_dc/

"Wind -a breath of heart-".

http://www.kazunecity.tv/

"Wind -a breath of heart-".

There isn't anything to discuss. You are wrong. That is a fact.

[edit] What the hell?

Why does the first line of the article say "{{{{{2|{{{2}}}}}}|1 {{{media=void|2={{{3}}}}}} | Infobox CVG/media | {{{media}}}}}" --SoothingR 07:20, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Looks like...

...a problem with the infobox.

I guess it'd be a good idea to remove it for now, at least till someone can fix it.

[edit] Fixing mess

I have merged the page histories from the unicode version. Now feel free to change stuff around. Redwolf24 (talk) 00:18, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Rvalles, your adding unnecessary images is affecting the readability of the article. And yes, big chunks of blank space DO affect the readability of the article. Please stop.

Besides, this article is about the game, not the translation patch. If you really want to add screenshots, it'd be better to add ones from the original game.

[edit] Explaining the reasons behind my recent edits (mostly to Omgwtflolz)

I've looked into the text/image layout problem you seem to be suffering; this is not how a image should be displayed with "right|thumb". The images are suppossed not to disturb layout, so that text continues in an independent manner. This is the expected behaviour and it can be observed in all browsers I've tried. They are:

  • On Linux/x86
    • Firefox 1.0.7
    • Opera
    • Konqueror
  • On Solaris 8/UltraSPARC
    • Netscape 6.x
    • Firefox 1.0.7

I should note I've not logged in with any of them, so the default stylesheet was displayed. It seems them it's a very specific problem affecting just your webbrowser. Many browsers are known to have problems with some wikipedia features, Internet Explorer being one of the kings (see Wikipedia:Browser notes), and being, in general, problematic with format, having very incomplete/outdated/bad support for Web standards. I personally recommend to switch to Firefox; there are many other options of capable browsers, but the reason I do recommend this one is that on wikipedia, the use of open standards are important. There's why we avoid GIF and use PNG instead, or why we use Ogg-Vorbis as per-policy and not MP3. On the matter of the html code itself, Web standards are religiously respected, and Firefox is, at this moment, the most popular webbrowser which is both free software and available for many platforms (important from a universal access to wikipedia point of view) On Wikipedia, we don't try and work around browser bugs on articles themselves. The right|thumb method constitutes a very useful way of placing images, allowing for the placing of a lot of them without disturbing the article text at all. It is then popular and you'll see a whole lot of articles using this method (like Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu or Full Metal Panic!: The Second Raid, being both good examples of articles using that feature extensivelly. Check Wikipedia:Picture_tutorial for futher info on image formatting.

Having addressed this browser-specific issue, I should say that I disagree with the other arguments you've used so far to defend removing them. Let's be specific: This is the english wikipedia. We speak/read/write/whatever english here. Additionally having some screenshot from the original version of the game may indeed add some value, but let's stick to the english versions whether available, by default. Now, you might think there were too many images on the first place. Well, let me explain. Unlike a dictionary, a anime or game database, or whatever other sort of place, an article here it's supposed to be an enciclopedic article. It is supposed to be extensive, verbose, enciclopedic, to cover as much as possible. One of the points needed to archieve that on an article about this kind of game is, without a doubt, documenting the characters (or possible girlfriends...) on an extensive way. From the graphical front, that does mean having screenshots showing each of them; it would not be complete otherwise, and in my own, personal bias I'm positive as someone who likes this kind of games that having those is something that is very apreciated.

On the matter of AniDB links, it seems you've removed them twice; your reason as told in your edit summary seems to be "Those sites are very obviously not in Japanese.". Well, this is the english enciclopedia. There's why links written in english are valuable; more than that, we try to link to sites which are in english, on purpose. When for some reason that is not possible and we feel we should include a link to a page written in a different language (let's say, the official site for wind, which is in japanese...), the common policy is to warn (in japanese) on the link comment, so that the reader knows before opening it. Having said so I think those links should be there. We're still a long way from reaching that point, but AniDB is a very valuable database for many of us, and we're trying so that all entries about an anime have a link to their AniDB node. To make it even easier, a macro was created, and we use it instead of placing the whole URL there, very convenient considering AniDB does indeed have many domain names, is hosted in a non-ludicrous way, have had some of them non-working on the past, and is likely to drop many of them on the future.

On the matter of naming, I was very wrong when I renamed the page to the name with double-width ~s instead of -. I don't recall where I got that idea from (bad memory), but I must have followed bad leads, probably from some shop instead of just looking at the official page itself (my bad!). The reason I so quickly reverted your article move in the first place doesn't have anything to do with believing either name to be the most apropiate, tho. On wikipedia, atribution is important. We keep track of who did change what, as a way to give proper credit to our editors. When a page is moved by the cut and paste method, this list of changes isn't moved, leading to the loss of them. To avoid that, we have other methods to move pages without this trouble, but to avoid problems such as vandalism, only registered users and only those which a considerable number of edits and/or age (I'm one of them but I personally don't know why... been here since 2001, 2002 or so with this user, both a lot of time and edits). To make things easier for those without the privileges, On Wikipedia:Requested_moves a list of moving requests is kept, and if they're well argued, experienced users or moderators do that job. There are situations where this can't be done, though. This is the case of images, music and other uploaded goods which should be reuploaded. This is the case of the images you've added to the article, unfortunably. Since everything shares the same namespace, and to make names more unique, it's a policy to make names very descriptive. Like "Wind -A Breath of Heart- demo Insani NNL Minamo childhood promise.png" as oppossed to "Windtitlescreen.jpg". This means It'll take a bit of work for me to move them to the -'d name from the ~'d name. I won't move the ones you uploaded in order to let you be the uploader on the history of the image itself. There are other matters to be taken care of regarding your images, though. I recommend Wikipedia:Uploading_images, which is a very good guide on doing so. The problems I've noticed so far are naming, the choice of format; you chose JPEG for an image that should be PNG (policy: JPEG should be used for photos, PNG for everything else), computer graphics/screenshots tend to compress very well with PNG; and the lack of technical details on the image description (it's encouraged to explain how the screenshot was done, like "I used windows 98 and photoshop 9.1 to capture this screen from the point of the game where blah blah and being it in windowed mode. Then I edited the borders out...").

To make conversations easier to follow, it's desireable to sign them. It can be done easily by putting four consecutive ~ characters at the end of the post. It'll get expanded in a format like my signature.

After explaining all of this, I must say thank you for your contributions so far and future, and welcome to Wikipedia. You seem very knownedgeable on japanese culture and I'll be looking forward to your future contributions.

Feel free to futher discuss any issues as a reply to this post. (edit the thread, and put : on the beggining of your reply). Rvalles 00:26, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Er.

1- The English patch is not official. There is no real English version avaiable.

2- Like I said, read what's said.

202.156.6.54 01:27, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] In regard to the title of the article

Refer to the Japanese version of the article.

The game is ALWAYS referred to as "Wind -a breath of heart-", and never as "Wind ~a breath of heart~". I'm sorry, but I have to say this- how many of you have actually played the game? Not the translated demo, which covers about five minutes of it, but the actual game? If you haven't, could you please refrain from editing the article? It really doesn't help.

Omgwtflolz 01:36, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

That's the Japanese article. Over here at the English wikipedia, its customary to seperate subtitles with :. The game's name should probably be Wind: a Breath of Heart (Capitalize Breath and Heart as they are part of a proper noun). I'm sure in Japan they'd prefer it that way, but this is the English Wikipedia. Redwolf24 (talk) 01:42, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

One problem, though- that would be wrong. For a precedent, refer to hitomi.

Anyway, I give up on this article. I had no idea that fixing mistakes even so blatant would be this difficult, and I think I've contributed more than my fair share of actual content. Omgwtflolz 01:49, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I referred to Hitomi. I saw no subtitles used with hyphens. All I've seen you do around here is be rude to rvalles. There barely is any content in the article, and its really a rather lame edit war. Every 'mistake' you've fixed, you pretty much insulted whoever made the mistake. Before you do such a thing, think. Also one other thing, up there where you say 'One problem, though-', most of us would say 'One problem though:' (I'm not gonna get started on the sarcasm). Its just the grammar of English, and I hope while speaking English, you use our methods and grammar. Thanks, Redwolf24 (talk) 01:56, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Capitalization.

"The title of this article is incorrect due to technical limitations. The correct title is hitomi."

Omgwtflolz 02:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Ah. Much like iPod. Yes, proper nouns such as that if specifically uncapitalized should be left as such. I was thinking it would be in Japanese characters (since there is no official translation, where as hitomi does have releases in America) where perhaps subtitles are always lowercased. Much like a lot of albums WRITE EVERYTHING IN CAPITAL LETTERS ON THE SLEEVE but we don't do as such here as that's just a norm. I thought if there were to be an official translated version it'd be in the lines of Wind: a Breath of Heart (the 'a' may be capitalized too). It would be helpful if we had a picture of the cover for the game though... Redwolf24 (talk) 02:19, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

The title is, and always has been, "Wind -a breath of heart-" in English. That's what is says on all of the Japanese websites linked to in the article, on the cover of all the versions of the game, console and PC, and on the title screen.

Anyone who has played the game can't possibly not know what the title is. :/

Ah, and Google's image search has the Dreamcast version's cover on the second page.

Omgwtflolz 02:26, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

The general precedent for Japanese titles on Wikipedia is to transliterate the hiragana, katakana and kanji, but leave romaji, punctuation and so on accurate including case: see for example D.C. ~Da Capo~. So I think Wind -a breath of heart- is the right name for this article. I also think it's good to have the pictures but positioned as they are now (19th October). --AlexChurchill 09:17, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello, I am from Japan, I am very suprised at that there is argument about the title of the game

I just want to say, the one who say :Wind -a breath of heart- is the correct title is correct, for evidence you can go to google http://www.google.co.jp/search?as_q=&num=100&hl=ja&btnG=Google+%E6%A4%9C%E7%B4%A2&as_epq=wind+a+breath+of+heart&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=lang_ja&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=

221.117.22.194 16:33, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

The Japanese version of English grammar does not apply on the English Wikipedia. I have moved the article to Wind: A Breath of Heart and have policy to back it up, see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks).

  • First, the capitalization: "Lowercased trademarks with no internal capitals should always be capitalized". That means 'A', 'Breath', and 'Heart' get capped per normal English rules of grammar.
  • Second, the colon instead of two hyphons: "Avoid using special characters that are not pronounced, are included purely for decoration". Using -hyphons- or ~tildes~ falls under this category. It is a non-standard practice for subtitles. The proper English format is the use of a colon.
  • Also note that other English websites use this format as well. ANNIGNPlay-Asia GameSpot GameFAQs
  • Finally, what is official is not what is right. Kiss (band) lost that fight. It's officially 'KISS'.

So unless anyone can cite policy stating otherwise, the article should stay where I have moved it.--SeizureDog 04:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please provide a summary of the story

Can someone provide a summary of this game? Like, what the story is about? A popular story like this deserves a summary. Thanks.--141.213.196.250 08:06, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is quite funny that there are so many arguments about formating going on around here, and yet no one has even bothered to give a synopsis about what the game is about. --71.107.222.219 (talk) 22:55, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use image gallery

I removed several fair use images from this page because they violated Wikipedia's fair use guideline. I did leave the images that were in some sort of context, but just having images of all the characters next to a list of their names does not count as "critical commentary." Secondly, these images constituted a gallery (images without any corresponding article text), specifically disallowed on WP:NOT. I don't believe all of the extraneous images currently present are necessary or within policy. Comments? ~MDD4696 04:24, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

They were made into a gallery by someone in order to workaround some bug in some surprisingly popular and really faulty browser that they call IE; they used to belong to the code lines of each character. If we're going to talk about a game of this kind, showing the available girls is a requisite. Since it's just citing, I do believe we can fairly call it Fair Use.-- Roc VallèsTalk|Hist - 11:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
About the gallery--I was referring to the fact that they are simply a collection of images without any discussion of the images or their subjects, not the actual formatting. Anyways, I'm not sure what you mean by "just citing." I see no discussion of the characters beyond a list of their names; that's skating on thin ice. Since I'm not familiar with this game, could you elaborate on why showing the girls is important for this kind of game? You may have justification there for including the images then. ~MDD4696 02:46, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need two pictures of Minato but none of Hikari? I'd upload a pic of Hikari but I don't know much about using copy-right licensing, so I'll wait for someone else to do it. --Charizardpal (talk) 10:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Copyright infringement

Per WP:C and Wikipedia:External links#Restrictions on linking, the website where the infringement is hosted should never be linked. The fact remains that if the info about the translations is in the article, someone will invariably add in a link to "verify" said translation at some later date. I was merely trying to cut out the very strong possibility that a link to the translation site would be added if the information was kept, thus I removed all the information regarding the translation. If you believe I am wrong in assuming this, then what do you suggest we do about it?--十八 07:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'll point out that according to WP:EL, "The subject of this guideline is external links that are not citations of article sources." So it doesn't directly apply to the case you mention. That being said, I think we want to strike a balance between completeness of the article (which would demand mentioning that the game has been translated), and not linking directly to the material. Perhaps a link like [1] is appropriate, as it's a news article (albeit on a site that also mirrors the patch). That puts the patch a few more clicks away from the reader.
I also think we should keep this in Category:English-translated H games, as it clearly fits. — PyTom (talk) 09:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
The fact remains at WP:C#Linking to copyrighted works that linking to anything that leads a reader to a site holding material that has copyright infringement materials should not be linked. It states: If you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. External links and web references are both external web sites. So again I ask you, how can we simultaneously prevent the inclusion of said websites while also supplying the information that a translation exists without having to perform a revert every time someone adds in the infringement websites?--十八 09:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps have some sort of textual citation, rather than a hypertext link? Something like: "Visualnews.net, 2007-02-07". To be honest, I think regardless of what we decide, we'll have to monitor and revert the article, because people will put the link into it. I don't think we should omit information about the translation (which is one of the major reasons why this game is of note to English-reading audiences) in the hope that we'd have to revert less. Perhaps adding a comment in the source of the page asking people to refrain from adding the link would be enough.
It's a weird situation we're in, where we have reliable sources for information, and can't link those sources because of copyright concerns. — PyTom (talk) 04:05, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Adding in a textual citation still wouldn't work according to WP:C#Linking to copyrighted works: Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States. Even saying where the information comes from seems to be in violation, and seeing as how Wikipedia needs sources for it's info, I think you'd be hard pressed to verify that a translation exists without directing people to said translation. No matter what you're trying to work around the copyright problem, and it isn't working. The fact that an unofficial translation exists, also, should not be as notable, as say an official one, especially considering the copyright problems surrounding the fact that the translation even exists. This is the reason why we have a fansub article, but no links to fansub groups or naming fansub groups by name, because of the infringement problems. Same reason we don't link to youtube videos.--十八 04:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, we do have a number of similar articles, and they seem to come up with compromises. Probably the closest is the good article Final Fantasy V, which links to romhacking.net. The Grey Album also links to sites mirroring the work in question. I'm adding a link to a FAQ on gamefaqs, which, while not the most reliable source, mentions the translation without linking directly to it. — PyTom (talk) 18:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)