Talk:Winchester College

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Two things - firstly who is 195.172.14.67 (Westminster College) and good job for changing the Cookson to Cockson. Secondly, who is 137.222.10.58 and what makes you so sure that Kenny's isn't also written 'Kennaez'? I am a scholar at Winchester College and I know that Kenny's is often written 'Kennaez'. Gingekerr 10:37, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't think the fact that the son of a previous headmaster was expelled from the school for drugs-related offences really merits mention, especially mis-spelled mention (perhaps I should have written "menshun") in an article about the school. Last time I checked, wikipedia was not a gossip collumn. If you disagree, feel free to flame me / put things right. Gingekerr 10:16, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

  • I agree wholeheartedly that the chap's expulsion is meaningless. I'm afraid, however, that there are those on Wikipedia who have substantive malice against, say, the aristocracy, etc., and feel it necessary to rake up whatever dirt they can and plaster it on Wikipedia, instead of following old encyclopaedic and Dictionary of National Biography yardsticks, which tend to exclude, as you rightly put it, "meaningless" comments. You might like to have a look at the entry for the late Lord Nicholas Hervey and some of the sneering comments made on the talk page. Sussexman 18:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I have heard that Winchester students were formerly known as "Wicamists" - how common is this usage today? Mmartins 15:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Winchester students are still known as Wykehamists, and old boys as Old Wykehamists.

"You can tell a Wykehamist, because you can't tell him anything." Gingekerr 13:58, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have never seen the spelling "Wicamist" as a noun. However, the adjective "Wykehamical" is sometimes spelt "Wiccamical", and "Wiccamica" means antiquities, documents and other information connected with the school.

I think you'll find that Parson Woodforde (1740-1803), a College man, uses the word "Wiccamist" in his diaries. Millbanks (talk) 09:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Harold Wilson used to say of certain Old Wykehamist economists: "I wish I could be as certain about anything as they are about everything".--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 16:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Sirmylesnagopaleentheda, are you sure about the Wintoniensem -> Wintoniam bit? If you're right I'm surprised that the other version went uncontested for so long. I was pretty sure that Wintoniensem was the correct version (if it is wrong, it's someone else's mistake, as I heard people using that version when I was at school), though I'm not a Latin or medieval scholar. Do you have a source? --Holmoak 23:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I am quite certain. In medieval Latin, "Wintonia" means "Winchester", and "Wintoniensis" is an adjective meaning "of Winchester". "Prope Wintoniensem" would therefore be grammatical nonsense. The formal name of the college, as found in the original statutes, is "Collegium Beatae Virginis Mariae Wintoniae, Anglice Seynt Marie College Winchester"; and if you were making a deed of covenant or a will in favour of the College today, the form would be "the Warden and Scholars of Saint Mary College Winchester, commonly known as Winchester College". Later sources sometimes add "prope Wintoniam" to distinguish it from "Collegium BVM Wintoniae in Oxonia", alias New College. The confusion arises because the name was usually given in abbreviation: "Coll: BVM Winton: prope Winton:". ("Collegium Sanctae Mariae Wintoniensis", without the "prope", would also be grammatically acceptable: I shall check whether it occurs, for example in the title of the Mathews poem.) With your permission, I shall therefore correct it back again.--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 15:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
My Latin is now very sketchy, but I did ask half a dozen people who'd been to the school to ask if they had any faults with it, and they didn't. However, I bow to your superior knowledge. Thanks for correcting it. --Holmoak 18:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Most Famous Schools?

"Winchester is often mentioned alongside Harrow School and Eton College as one of Britain's three most famous public schools." Ok fame is perhaps subjective and I'm not sure what evidence could be gathered for this purpose, but I would think I am right in saying that Rugby school should be in here, and I wouldn't be surprised if its fame is not greater than that of Winchester, primarily because of the varoius football codes (two keeping its name) that evolved from its sporting traditions.

Absolutely true. There is no point to this sentence. There are a number of famous public schools in Britain. To say that any is more famous than any other is simple POV pushing. Only Eton could probably get away with it, but it's unnecessary even when describing Eton. -- Necrothesp 09:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think that in "Establishment" circles people might be more inclined now to say, "Eton and Winchester" rather than "Eton and Harrow", but that was not the case until fairly recently, and I imagine that more people would have heard of Harrow than Winchester. Rugby has the advantage of Tom Brown's Schooldays, and of having invented a major sport.

I can remember a newly arrived Australian telling me that as far as he was concerned there were "only two public schools and they were Eton and Harrow and (he) couldn't care a piss about the others". Speaks volumes for perception, doesn't it? Millbanks (talk) 08:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I've heard that Lord Peter Wimsey (Eton and Balliol) once made derogatory remarks about Winchester. Did he, and if so, what did he say?Bill Tegner 22:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

When asked what he meant by a public school, he answered: "Eton. Oh, and Harrow. And if you're not too particular, there's some little place in Winchester." The other person said "I once met a man who'd been to Marlborough", and Wimsey answered "I'm sorry to hear that". I forget which book this comes in. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It's in Murder Must Advertise, p.142. The exact words are "And I've heard that there's a decentish sort of place at Winchester, if you're not too particular." When someone mentioned Rugby, he said "No, no: that's a railway junction." --62.25.109.195 15:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prefectorial system

Has the College officer system been changed recently to eliminate one of the Cap: Praes and introduce another office instead? This was not the case when I left in 2002, but a recent short roll suggested that it might have been. (I don't have it to hand, otherwise I'd have more information). In that case, the article should be updated to reflect it. If that is not the case, I am probably remembering incorrectly. --Holmoak 18:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The article states:

"There are then a number of Co: Praes (Commensalibus Praefecti, Commoner Prefects) with authority throughout the school (except, formerly, over Collegemen)."

Should it be: 'except, formally, over Collegemen?' Otherwise, formerly to what? When I was at Winchester (until 2002) I was under the impression that the rule still stood, at least notionally (=~ formally). --Holmoak 18:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Very difficult one. Obviously a Co: Prae: cannot march into College and start throwing his weight about: the question is whether he can discipline a Collegeman found transgressing elsewhere on the school premises.
Your understanding (that he cannot) is certainly the traditional one. However, I have a feeling that, if it came to a constitutional crisis, any Headmaster would take the view that, when push comes to shove, College is just another house and a Co: Prae: is a school prefect as opposed to a house prefect, end of argument.
The original basis of the rule is that Commoners were not part of the foundation at all, but a private commercial venture of the Headmaster; thus, from the point of view of College, their existence could be ignored. This certainly cannot be maintained after the reforms consequent upon the Public Schools Act 1868.
In my time, the justification was a little different. College fell within the jurisdiction of the Second Master, and the Headmaster had no right to interfere in its internal affairs. (Again, this understanding was not uncontested, and there was a running battle between the Headmaster and the Second Master, each Second Master warning his successor: "Whatever you do, don't let the Headmaster into College!") College prefects were appointed by the Second Master by authority of the Warden. Co: Praes were appointed by the Headmaster by his own authority. Ergo, Co: Praes had no jurisdiction over any Collegeman. Again, I question whether this can survive the separation of the office of Master in College from that of Second Master. If the rule survives at all, it can only be on the reasoning that, while the Headmaster has the power to interfere in College to the extent of giving Co: Praes jurisdiction over Collegemen, he has not so far exercised it.
The parallel question is that of the College Co: Praes. It was certainly once thought that all prefects in full power had jurisdiction over Commoners; but Dr. Ridding laid down that this is only the case where the prefect acts officially, that is in the capacity of an Officer or Bible Clerk. (The Bible Clerk was appointed weekly to read the lesson in Chapel and to keep order in School.) However, if this were still the case the distinction between College Co: Praes and other College prefects would be meaningless, as there is no longer any post of Bible Clerk (though in my time the Co: Praes still took it in turns to take Preces: do they still?). There was once a time when prefects in half power only had authority in their own chambers, as shown in their appointment formula "praeficio te in sociis tuis concameralibus", but this is long obsolete. In my time there was usually only one College Co: Prae: (very occasionally two), and he was always Coll: Lib: Prae:. Since Coll: Lib: Prae: was made an Officer, are there still any College Co: Praes (apart from the Officers), or has the custom of appointing them lapsed?
I have not been in Winchester recently enough to be able to comment on whether there are still two Cap: Praes. I would be interested to read anyone else's comments on this.
Reverting to the question of Co: Praes and Collegemen, I shall tweak the article to use some adverb such as "traditionally".
On an entirely different topic: might it not be better to describe the sweat and writers systems as they now exist, and then say that they date from the 1970s or earlier, rather than the other way round? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 12:19, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I have revised the whole section, and tried to make it clear what applies only to College and what applies to the rest of the school. When I was in College every member of the sen: roll was a College prefect, with authority over junior collegemen. There were three different levels:
  • six officers (Aul:, Bib:, Schol:, Sen: & Jun: Cap:, and Coll: Lib: Praes),
  • six officers' prefects (one chosen by each officer to be a "second in command" in his chamber for the year), and
  • two or three further non-officered prefects (sometimes known as jemimas) who did not have a fixed officer, numbers depending on the size of the roll.
All prefects (i.e. everyone in the top year) took turns doing things like taking toytime, nursing and reading at Preces. The officers met with the Master-in-College weekly to discuss internal College affairs. Some had specific duties outside College (the Aulae Prae:, the Cap: Praes) but I don't think they were in the habit of exerting authority over commoners. I am not sure what the notional power of an officer is these days.
No-one in College was ever called a Co: Prae: -- that was reserved for the heads of houses of Commoner houses. No-one below the top year was ever a prefect. I think the only change since 2002 is that the Jun: Cap: Prae: has apparently been replaced by Ollae Prae:.
I expect the article could do with further rationalisation. I am sorry if I've trodden on anyone's toes!
--Holmoak 14:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The entire premise that any of the various kinds of prefect exercise any authority over anyone was, during my time at least (A, 1994-1999), total bollocks anyway; they might have had notional power, but they certainly never used it. I'd be astonished if it has changed since then. The only thing we ever cared about was what prefects within the house did or didn't want; the same (as far as I can tell) was true of collegemen; the heirarchy within each house mattered, but official wincoll-wide titles didn't. Within A, everyone in the top year (unless busted down as punishment for some transgression of the rules), had to perform such duties as supervising toytime and confiscating alcohol; I presume other houses were similar. As an aside, X was used on a hell of a lot more than laundry; its use was really quite routine, by both collegemen and commoners alike. Pissed off certain traditionalists, of course, but fuck 'em. DrPizza 16:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

We were told that there was an obsolete position of Tinea Prae, the senior non-officer prefect, who was responsible for checking that noone had developed tinea over the hols. Incidentally, why aren't there any pictures of college men in gowns ? I was trying to demonstrate the reality of Harry Potter to an innocent American the other day, and couldn't find anything.

When I was in College (mid-80s) the Aulae Prae and usually one other Officer ranked as Co Praes (I did once witness the "other" - I'd best not name him - officiously telling some kid "I'm a Co Prae" as he told him off in Flint Court). The Aulae Prae also used to give the address Ad Portas (ie. receiving distinguished OW visitors like Willie Whitelaw) and read out the school roll at Morning Hills. Officers got to wear a black velvet stripe on the edge of their gowns, the Aulae Prae a coloured one (usually, but not always, red). Also at that time the College Tutor (the late J.H.Durran) was listed on the school roll on the list of housemasters (this may have been just honorary - don't know if he actually attended housemasters' meetings), the Second Master being of course housemaster of College at that time (for real - that certainly wasn't a legal fiction). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.192.0.10 (talk) 13:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] End of November edits

I'm afraid I've reverted everything back to 23 November 2006 as there have been a lot of useless edits since then.

Firstly, Tai Kit, Winchester is both a public school and an independent school. It is more commonly (within the UK, at least) classed as a public school, so I don't think this needs to be changed.

Secondly, 81.138.2.87 goes well beyond the boundaries of accuracy and good taste.

I do not believe that there is a Fo: Prae:, and I am sure he is not an officer, so I am inclined to doubt anything that 81.105.181.61 says.

I have restored 69.137.169.43's addition.

--Holmoak 15:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, Tai Kit, my mistake -- the Independent School and Public School articles are one and the same. I have re-updated the article to link to Independent school (UK).
--Holmoak 15:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Fo Prae was once a title jocularly given to the junior prefect in Second Chamber. However, the Prefect of Hall's Book records a decision of the Second Master to abolish this post and give the Prefect of Hall responsibility for all matters in re foricarum.

If it is true that the newly revived Ollae Prae is in charge of computers, it is worth saying, however much rubbish appeared in the other edits by the same author.--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 17:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

There's been far too much rubbish from 81.138.2.87, and if it were an individual it should be banned from editing. Unfortunately it is the whole current Win Coll user community! What shall we do? ---Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 19:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

How do you know it is not an individual? The IP address is for a single, dynamic IP broadband connection (host81-138-2-87.in-addr.btopenworld.com), which suggests an individual or at most a connection shared between three or four people. Most of his/her contributions (almost all vandalism) are non-Wykehamical and many are for entirely different schools. If s/he had anything useful to contribute s/he could always sign up for a proper account. --Holmoak 23:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant 81.105.181.61. The talk page for that user has a warning beginning "This IP address, 81.105.181.61, is registered to Winchester College and may be shared by multiple users". This is corroborated by the fact that some of the edits from this source are rubbish and others are quite sensible. I don't know who 81.138.2.87 is, though he/she is equally guilty of contributing rubbish. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 11:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Winchester used to have a leased line and fixed IP addresses in the range 212.219.8.160 - 212.219.8.191 (and still does according to the whois database). However, it looks like 81.105.181.0 - 81.105.181.63 also belong to the college now. Would the solution not be to block anonymous users only? Those students who wish to use Wikipedia seriously can still do so by registering an account. An alternative would be to email the computing department at Win: Coll: to complain, but I suspect that it would not be productive; they might well end up banning this site altogether.
--Holmoak 14:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Let's wait and see. If there is a lot more rubbish, perhaps we should go with your suggestion of blocking anonymous users. How does one set about this? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
You need to be a Wikipedia administrator. See WP:BP (Blocking Policy). As far as I can tell, the way to get an administrator's attention is to post on WP:AIV (Administrator intervention against vandalism). --Holmoak 02:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notions

Why is it that information under the title 'Notions' is so out dated. Surely people who go to Winchester should update this by writing about current trends in notions, especially considering it is such a big part of life at wincoll. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.151.255.146 (talk) 00:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

This is already addressed in the "Notions" article. Here we need nothing more than the briefest sketch. (In any case the old notions are far funnier and more interesting!) --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Old Wykehamists

Please could someone add: Douglas Jay, Peter Jay, Hubert Doggart, Nicholas Monsarrat and Antony Beevor. I'd do it myself, but I don't have their dates handy.Bill Tegner 22:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added Paul Bergne, the intelligence officer, linguist and diplomat, who died in 2007. See the Times obituary. Well worth creating a WP article on this impressive OW—which is why I've added a proleptic link to encourage someone to do so ... --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 13:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
PS And what about Giles Radice, who as it happens was a friend of Bergne's? (I think he wrote an obit in the Grauniad.) --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 13:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
PPS Yes, he did write a short obit. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 16:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Y Done Radice now added. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 20:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Y Done Both Jays, Beevor & Monsarrat added.
A couple of points:
  • Someone should check that all the OWs are indeed correctly listed by date of birth, not entry to the school. Most of them are probably OK, but Richard Noble was listed under 1964 rather than the correct 1946.
  • Make sure that all OWs with WP entries have Category:Old Wykehamists at the foot of their pages. Clicking on this category provides a handy list of notable OWs in alphabetical order. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 12:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I have now developed a prototype sortable list. Please see my comments on the OW Talk page. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 22:19, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dulce Domum (Winchester College Song)

This article was considered at afd and the result was merge into this article. I have redirected the page to this article. Please feel free to dig through the redirect history and merge in anything useful. Thanks. Spartaz Humbug! 20:14, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mark Easton

Is Mark Easton really an OW? His name has been added to the List of OWs, but his name doesn't appear in the 2007 OW Address Roll. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Could someone with access to the information please respond &, if appropriate, correct this? --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Y Done Now deleted. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 21:12, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re-assessment

I have upgraded this article to top importance. It is one of the oldest and most well-known English public schools as testified by the number of books written about it and also by the large number of foreign language Wikipedia articles. The article is in desperate need of some references. Dahliarose (talk) 22:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Coordinates removed

I don't know where on the planet Winchester College is, suffice it to say it can't be at bogus coordinates like "51.058N, -1.312W" which is a location in the middle of Germany. Someone with a better idea feel free to fix that. 91.33.198.17 (talk) 07:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

The above coordinates are correct and nowhere near Germany. The problem is that N and W are not recognised; the signs are sufficient to denote the hemispheres. Viewfinder (talk) 10:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)