User talk:William P. Coleman

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Note: I've now relaxed from ultra-paranoid Faggot_Defcon Level 5 around Wikipedia to approximate Faggot_Defcon Level 3.6, so I'm starting to make corresponding changes here and in my user page -- including I'll probably stop self-describing as "faggot" for a while. I'll try to restore/archive the deleted messages soon. William P. Coleman (talk) 15:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yes, you are!

Wow!! Thanks!!! . . . And also -- also, also, also -- actually, the picture shows I'm way hotter than I thought! Why doesn't my mirror tell me these things???? I should be a lot more self-confident. . . . Uhhhh, actually, which of the two guys in the picture am I?

Seriously, though, Allstarecho, thanks!

Thanks too, BTW, for incidentally showing me how to use {{Clr}}. I've been looking for that. You seem to a reliable source of wikitech -- considering, also, the way you sign your name.

William P. Coleman (talk) 20:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Well gee

Even though you won't see it apparently, I never even realized you had replied above! But I hate to see you leave Wikipedia. You'll be missed and are definitely a flaming star! If you change your mind, drop a line on my talk page. ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 21:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hope you'll reconsider

Sorry it's been a bit of a disappointment. I hope you'll reconsider for the same reasons you teach and write. Good luck in all you do! Benjiboi 00:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I second that emotion. We at the LGBT Project need editors like you. It's very easy to become discouraged here, but don't let the bastard[s] get you down. Jeffpw (talk) 00:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I really take exception to that comment Jeff. ^Avruchtalk 02:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Really. Perhaps it wasn' directed at you but you might try empathizing why someone would feel as though there time and contributions at Wikipedia were just no longer worth it. You might try living your entire life as an outsider always hoping that the next homophobe with a baseball bats out to get their kicks doesn't find you, that the next boss doesn't fire you for being different as in too gay or too butch if you're a woman. Perhaps you'll consider that LGBT people tend to thrive online because we are generally treated as equals as long as no one knows we are LGBT; but once that info is revealed all manner of "interesting things" seem to take place. For those reasons and thousands of queer kids worldwide who deserve to live a life free of hate many of us choose to slog through the endless abuse and sophomoric vandalism. We patiently reference things that would seem to generate no questioning at all if the article wasn't about an LGBT person. I see the benefit now that we are continually playing the don't let it get deleted game but it does take the wind out of one's sails - so to speak. I hope that frustration is sometimes evident as I've yet to experience a day of editing at wikipedia where homophobia wasn't all too real. Benjiboi 03:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I hope it isn't directed at me. I assumed it might be because all of Coleman's parting comments mentioned me specifically, but its possible it was a general comment. I won't pretend to understand the difficulty you or he have been through, it doesn't get much more privileged than my background I guess. Still, I am not and have never been among those who make life difficult for the LGBT crowd. I do my part (easy in Vermont...). Being seen as prejudiced for what I perceived to be fairly uncontroversial actions is a tough outcome for me, but I guess it is easier after all than living with the results of being the target of actual prejudice. ^Avruchtalk 04:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It's an instance (I think) of the great gulf that can exist between the intent of an action and its effect. There was, previously, a raging war over userboxes, particularly those involving personal characteristics and beliefs. I was eventually on the losing side of that one, but I retained a statement of my reasoning. No Wikipedian should feel the need to check their identity at the door as the cost of admission to this project. I'm confident you intended no such thing, either here or at the AfD we both participated in, and what I say here is equally applicable to most Wikipedians, myself included. In this case, the effect seems to have been different from the intent, so (to me) it is up to you whether to alter the action so that its effect matches your intent. --SSBohio 15:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC) (another gayass Wikipedian)

You're absolutely right, and just a few minutes ago I withdrew the UCfD nomination. As I said to Aleta on my talkpage - the controversial and disruptive nature of an action is determined by those who it effects, not the individual taking the action. I was aware of the userbox controversy, but assumed because of the recent prior deletion of similar categories that it was a generally uncontroversial nom. I was incorrect, and the nomination became far more disruptive than I think the category could ever be alone. When the usercat issue is finally resolved it will have to have been tackled comprehensively without singling out any particular category to avoid potentially offending its members. ^Avruchtalk 15:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Queer Wikipedian usercat

Just recreate it and moot the DRV, I'd say. Its clear that the consensus on the issue may have changed or may not have been well established, so recreate it and let someone nominate it for deletion if they feel the need. ^Avruchtalk 14:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, I have to sincerely thank you for trying to be helpful. I do have some eventual contingency plans based on your suggestion, but for the minute I'm sitting back and letting the discussion evolve without me intervening more and polarizing more. It seems by now that if someone is just going to recreate the category, it should preferably be someone with a lot more experience than a newbie like me (though I'd certainly serve in the last resort). Meanwhile, some very obviously, perceptibly fair admins have joined in, and I'd like them to do their thing. I think that DuncanHill's participation has been great, and I'm encouraged by DGG's comments and even fairly inspired by the Wikipedia:Eguor admins group he belongs to. William P. Coleman (talk) 16:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hi William!

Since I've found you in the recent AfD on Adult-child sex not too opposed to the general idea to strengthen our encyclopedia with reliable, comprehensive, substantial, and essential material also on unpopular topics, and since you obviously have a basic grasp of German, I've been meaning to ask about your support.

A thought I've been harboring lately is putting up an essay within my userspace on the main source for my draft (which is Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg 1985/88) to one day maybe be moved to Wikipedia, WikiBooks, or WikiEssays. I'd once put this up on the German Wikipedia as an article and it held up for half a year, from May 2006 until January 2007, until someone on a personal revenge crusade removed it by means of an AfD (where votes were split 50:50 and of course most wanting to get it deleted did nothing more than point to their severe disgust, although that AfD actually lasted for 2 months before it was closed). This essay of mine was actually so influential that I found literal quotes lifted from it in a nation-wide newspaper endorsing them, that literal quotes were endorsed by a German General Medical Council, and just the same with an official brochure issued by an Austrian government department, I found my very own words in all those cases. Googling for it, I found that a number of people had saved personal backups of the article in various places on the web, and there also were several forums debating its content while linking to my article on Wikipedia.

So, I've been meaning to ask you if you'd be willing to have a look at my German essay after I'll have put it up in my userspace here on the English Wikipedia and tell me whether you think it's a good idea for me to translate it to English and for the time being leaving it as the draft of an English Wikipedia article in my userspace to one day maybe be moved to Wikipedia, WikiBooks, or WikiEssays. The basic idea of this essay of mine is a Wikipedia article on an existing work (Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg 1985/88), comparable to articles such as Civilization and Its Discontents and Dialectic of Enlightenment. --TlatoSMD (talk) 03:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your message. However, you must not have read my posts in that thread much at all. I repeatedly wrote there that I find adult-child sex repellent, and I even took some criticism because I refused for that reason to so much as read the article under discussion. Since I refused then even to read it, I certainly don't want to actively contribute to it in any way now. My support was entirely limited to the negative sense that I thought it was unfair to automatically delete the article -- and, further, I did advocate thoroughly revising the article to make it strictly NPOV and under no circumstances interpretable as even a possible limited endorsement of anything.

Please do not imply that you think I might be an advocate. I have no personal inclination to adult-child sex and I find it extremely difficult to imagine circumstances in the modern world in which it would be other than exploitative and harmful.

My participation in that discussion, as my comments clearly stated, was strictly limited to a desire to help Wikipedia -- by ensuring that it adhered to certain underlying general principles of fairness, objectivity, and cross-cultural awareness. Quixotic as I sometimes am, such generalities and principles are important to me.

However, adult-child sex is nonexistent on my radar; and if someone did bring it to my attention I think it should be stopped. William P. Coleman (talk) 16:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your frustrations

Yeah, I know. But they deleted it because they thought it was an insult. --Gp75motorsports ^{REV LIMITER} 15:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Apology and Thanks

_____Notice_____

I am returning to Wikipedia.

Since I left Wikipedia, Avruchtalk has made obviously sincere attempts to explain that he did not intend prejudice, and he's made several gestures of reconciliation, of which withdrawing the deletion nomination was only one. There may have been mutual misunderstanding, but it's more important that there clearly was no malice, as there was none on my part. I accept his explanations, I thank him for his gestures, I bear him no ill will, and I apologize for whatever degree I was the cause of our misunderstanding.

My frustration with Wikipedia has therefore cooled down to just below the boiling point and I am returning. I hope soon to be back to normal, participating in the Novels project collaboration of the month and working on Modernist Poetry and its relatives.

I'll soon move this message to my talk page -- as soon as I figure out how to restore the talk page from the deletions I made. (I think I know how, but it'll be a great learning experience for me in Wikitechnique.)

I would like to very sincerely thank several people who spoke decently about gays or kindly about me during the discussion.

--Bill

William P. Coleman (talk) 15:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Original Barnstar

		The Original Barnstar
		For your efforts in improving the article Nausea (novel)

		The Working Man's Barnstar
		For your efforts in improving the article Nausea (novel)

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		For the good efforts in the Nausea (novel)

I'll drink to that.

On February 4, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Nausea (novel), which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome back

Thanks for joining my favorite project, WP:ROBO, and thanks for coming back regardless. My partner John is just great on the kinds of issues that were causing problems, and fortunately he now owes me a big favor, so I am very much hoping he will now get up to speed at Wikipedia and participate in the LGBT Wikiproject. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 18:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Dan, thanks very much for your kind message! I don't actually know what I can do in WP:ROBO. I signed up there mainly because I hoped to learn something about the topic. I'm deeply interested in cognition as a theoretical subject and am just starting a long-delayed software project on it -- kind of a proof-of-concept for some ideas. But, anything hands-on or hardware related (like actually building or using robots) is usually beyond me. I'll try to look around WP:ROBO and see what I can do. If you have any suggestions or requests for help, please ask. -- Bill William P. Coleman (talk) 18:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

You're most certainly welcome. I'm going to add some articles on WP:ROBO for the newsletter, and that may give you some ideas for how you can help...you have a very wide range of very relevant skills. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 19:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] sandbox

I have moved William P. Coleman/Achilles Painter to User:William P. Coleman/Achilles Painter. -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 19:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• Sorry! That's what I actually intended. Thanks for fixing it for me. Like my user page says, I'm new here -- so I do sometimes screw up. William P. Coleman (talk) 19:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:ROBO

William (do I call you William?), there is absolutely something you can do. After a lot of discussion with WP:MoS people, admins, and participants in other WikiProjects, I am absolutely convinced that we need to do things in a different way...namely, we need to "insulate" the "workers" on the WikiProject from anything and everything that gets in their way. Anyone who contributes to that goal, even if they've never seen a robot in their life, does more to make the project succeed than 10 new roboticist-participants. I will create a new category at WP:ROBO in the box on the right called "Copyeditors", that would be the place for you to peek in from time to time to see if there's anything you want to help with. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 20:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually...strike that, the link called "Admin's Edit Log" would probably be better...I'm wrestling with Jameson over keeping the page just as simple as possible, so I can't afford to create an additional link myself :) And...I'm spending a lot of time on this but I still quite having figured out where we're going from here, so I'm not sure how fast I'll get the relevant content into that link...keep an eye on it from time to time please! - Dan Dank55 (talk) 13:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your contributions, William, and btw, you've got mail. Also btw, I am right smack in the middle of a big hairy fight at WT:MOS. It's got math, drama, and politics, so you might enjoy :) - Dan Dank55 (talk) 17:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm enjoying helping out, and gratified if people are finding my changes useful. People that have encountered me around here will probably find this very hard to believe, but I actually hate drama and politics -- even though I've been doing a lot of both. In real life, I'm very work-oriented and team-oriented. If challenged, I'll stand up for myself -- and I'm especially sensitive and touchy if I think I or anyone is being discriminated against for being LGBT. But I don't like being pushed into acting like that. After all the drama I've been through (and caused) around here lately, I feel a powerful need to bury myself in work. . . . BTW: in answer to your question, friends call me "Bill." William P. Coleman (talk) 05:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment issues at WP:ROBO

William, I have an idea, and there is a lot of support around Wikipedia for this idea, but Jameson is not so sure, please tell me what you think (email or my userpage, please).

After talking with people in a lot of wikiprojects, what I'd like to do about assessment is to let participants at WP:ROBO assign a grade of "stub", "start" or "B-class" to their own articles. I don't think there's any formal WP review process for these assessments. The higher ratings (Good, A-Class, and Featured) will still exist, and people who have been around WP a while and know what they're getting into will be encouraged to try for the higher assessments. We already have 3 featured robotics articles (including the portal), Jameson says. However, I would prefer we not promote this process to the newbies at WP:ROBO, because my sense is that "making better pages" is not the focus of most of the people I'm trying to attract...namely, people with expertise in one or more areas of robotics. We would really rather let them worry about whatever they're worried about and let us worry about higher assessment issues.

As a bonus, if we don't talk about the higher assessments at WP:ROBO, then we can let them assign their own assessments to their own and each other's articles. If we think they're making the wrong call, I'd prefer to discuss with someone how to tell a "stub" from a "start" from a "b-class", and ask them to look at it again...I think that process will be much more encouraging than the process of slapping a label on their article that they don't understand and feels vaguely like a failing grade.

Feedback would be very welcome.

Dan, Dank55 on WP, dank55@gmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dank55 (talk • contribs) 03:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Dan, I'm not sure -- especially because I really, really am a newbie around here and am not confident I know what I'm talking about.

In my typically perverse way, I probably agree with both of you: with what Jameson is saying now -- and with what you were saying to me earlier.

• If I understand what Jameson is saying, then I agree that we ought to be ambitious and go for as many articles with high classifications as we can get. This is based on my (very limited!) experience with Nausea (novel) last week. Maybe I'm totally delusional, but here's how it looks to me: I showed up, at the end of the month, for the Novels project Collaboration of the Month, hoping to get some training working along with more experienced novels editors. (I hadn't read Nausea or thought about it in years.) Guess what? Nobody else shows up. I get kind of frustrated, so I go to my bookshelves and start looking up Sartre in the index of everything I have on novels -- and I search Amazon Reader similarly. Pretty soon, I've got a pile of citations. So I just start rough-sorting them into the text of the article, while periodically restructuring to keep the result halfway coherent. Outcome? After 5 days of sweat and hard work, the WP:DYK editors compliment me, put my hook on the Main Page, and tell me I ought to be looking into WP:GA. And, if you want my own honest opinion, I think the article looks like a mess that was thrown together with too much work over too short a period of time -- but I also think it will clean up well. I'm pretty positive I can get GA -- after a thorough cleaning. Then, after a Peer Review, I'm pretty positive I can get FA not too too long from now. (Please do bear in mind, though, that I myself have so far only gotten to DYK.)

• Moral of story: If you start out with a reasonably rich pile of references and are willing to work very hard, then getting a decent article is fairly inevitable.

• However, I also agree with you. The process I just described requires a tremendous amount of housework and wikitechnique. I agree that it's hard to imagine that a lot of domain experts in robotics are going to want to put themselves through it or will succeed very well if unaided. Therefore, we've got to be prepared to provide a lot of support.

What I (newbie that I am) would like to suggest is slightly different. I think that -- absolutely(!) without in any way discouraging people who really only want to write a stub or a start class -- we should encourage people to try for DYK then GA then FA -- and we should support them with copyediting and housekeeping. (Assuming that enough copyeditors will sign up and not too many copyeditees ask for help.) Rather than letting them self-assess and then drop their article off at start or B class for us to take it the rest of the way, we should make it their responsibility (and their pride in their work) to take the article from beginning to end -- but we should actively help them do it (within reason).

I actually wrote up a proposal along these lines earlier today -- and it's in my sandbox. I wasn't really sure it's what I wanted to propose -- and, even if so, I wasn't sure I like my present, verbose, pompous, overly detailed wording -- so I wasn't ready to release it. But, since you ask . . . William P. Coleman (talk) 05:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

(reply to William, copied to JamesonTai) It's true, if you put some work in, it's possible to get the higher ratings...and if you want to help people in WP:ROBO do that, that's fantastic. I want to say again, in case it wasn't clear...I have only one "passion", and that is that we don't lose newbies that I bring in...for all other issues, goals and people, I don't feel passionate, we can do whatever you guys like, and I'll help. I think Jameson is wondering if I'm going to screw things up by trying to keep things so simple and transparent for my newbies...but an easy fix would just be not to direct my newbies to the front page, to give them a link of their own in the project. I don't think the link should say "newbies", because of course they'll be oldbies before long, I think it just depends what they want to work on...I'll ask around! - Dan Dank55 (talk) 02:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Dan, I know you're disappointed with my response. We (all of us) need to talk more until we work out some vision that's exciting, focused, and practical.

• Please don't doubt for a single minute that I agree with and support 100% your basic, core instinct that

• We need to attract people who are experienced with robots and passionate about them -- not just library researchers and catalogers.
• We can't scare them away with the typically preposterous amounts of Wiki-obstruction.

• However, I was trying to temper that with three thoughts:

• It seems clear to me that the easy way to eventually get GA or FA is to start out with the references, get a bunch of quotes, organize them, and then fill in the blanks. If you start the other way -- trying to expand a stub or a start-class that's unreferenced -- it can be extremely difficult, not to mention painful.
• You seem to want me to help people, but I'm being honest about my personal limitations. If you asked me to turn a stub about poetry, novels or visual arts into a GA, then I'd pull books off my own shelves, check a few more out of the library, and look in Amazon Reader. But, when it comes to robotics, I personally don't know jack and wouldn't know where to start. I can help a lot, and am willing, but I can't supply raw material or expertise.
• You yourself have already made a big, big contribution by working with the MOS and FA about what, for robotics, would constitute a reliable source.

• Many of the good or better articles on WP:ROBO now seem to be general overviews. Or am I missing them? Maybe what we (Jameson, you, me, others) need to do is start a group project ourselves to create/expand a few articles on specifics: for example, a specific robot, then a specific manufacturer, then a specific anime. We'd try to get them at least to GA. Then maybe that experience would help us arrive at consensus about how to usefully publish guidance and models for the newer people we'd like to attract.

Generally, I'm saying, "?????"

--Bill

William P. Coleman (talk) 17:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Bill, do you mind if I copy this to WP:ROBO/ADMINLOG and answer there? It's great stuff...and there are reasons to want that page to be long, anyway. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 19:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Dan, go ahead an copy as much as you think is good. I very much think this should be a general discussion. -- Bill ... William P. Coleman (talk) 20:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hey

On the LGBT Wikiproject talk page, I forgot to mention that I am also wanting to create some human rights articles and need sources for them as well: Human rights in Canada, Human Rights in Chile, Human rights in Italy, Human rights in Poland, Human rights in South Africa. However, The link you gave me I think helps me on that as well. Can you think of any more sources? --Grrrlriot (talk) 04:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I've included pretty well every worthwhile LGBT link I know in the bottom half of the sidebar on my blog. There's a fair amount of worldwide news coverage, including human rights, at the Pinknews link there, some at 365Gay, and less at NY Blade (which is mostly US) -- all listed under "_ Gay news and journalism."

To some extent, the links under "_ Gay teen suicide" and "_ Youth in crisis" represent human rights issues and, in that form, very definitely include the US and Canada. (I'm especially interested in those problems and feel that the US, and other countries, are practicing virtual genocide against LGBT youth. I plan eventually to ensure that Wikipedia covers it adequately.) The Covenant House link under "_ Youth in crisis" makes some attempt to cover all of North and Central America. William P. Coleman (talk) 05:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, William. I appreciate it! :) Also, I hought you might be interested in this: Portal:Feminism/Feminism_Task_Force --Grrrlriot (talk) 23:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Bill, if I can butt in on this one (I do have more interests than robotics :), you'll get no argument from me that the gay-baiting tactics of the right, and general lack of resources in the U.S. (but not so much in Canada) for gay teens, contribute to gay teen suicide. On the other hand, this touches on something I was just talking about today with Orangemike and my partner John (and indulge me a short digression, I'll get there). The ACLU (or rather, successful local chapters of the ACLU) is the first example I can find of an organization with the full complement of "wiki-values", predating Wikipedia by decades, as far as I can tell (and my partner is considering writing an article on this topic, he's on the national board), and they did it because they faced exactly the same pressures as Wikipedia did: a steady onslaught of people yelling at them for not representing their values. This is why the ACLU found that they had to adopt "NPOV" in every statement they made, it was the only way to "stay sane", which is exactly what you hear WP admins saying. So I think both WP and the ACLU (and now I'm back to your point) would reject the language "virtual genocide" in an article or (in the case of the ACLU) a press release or a court brief; not because it's not true, but because if they allow strong language once, they get yelled at by all the other people who want to use strong language for their equally valid causes. This is, of course, no reason whatsoever not to use this language when talking with each other. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 00:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Dan, I do appreciate your attempt to be soothing.

But, gee, the whole thing is really dispiriting. . . . Around WP, even my friends misinterpret and misread me.

Could you please point out anything in my LGBT talk post where I said, implied, or hinted that such language or tone should be used in the main space?

• I was -- as always -- careful, despite my intemperance there, in my writing. I separated my suggestions about what I thought we should actually do (as opposed to just rhetorically using "this language when talking with each other") by setting my recommendations off in a series of 5 bullets. In none of those did I suggest we become non-NPOV. In 2 of them, I reiterated strong remarks about "maintaining our objectivity and factualness" and not "abandoning our mission, our integrity, or our policies."

• In the other discussion you and I are having, it's I who am the one wanting to stay wiki-proper and ingratiating to the powers that be by building our articles with references from the ground up. Why would you imagine I'd suddenly change?

• You've apparently read my user page thoughtfully and you are familiar with my background. For example, do you know why (besides massive wiki-discouragement, including about the deletion flak you've been getting, Dan) I've been quiet here for the last week or so? It's because I've been intensively working with a group of people to prepare a business client's submission to the FDA. Do you have any idea the level of science, NPOV, and care in tone and language that requires? This is my day job. I've been successful at it for 30 years.

• If you're interested in commenting on the topic I was actually writing about, could you please read the Teenage suicide article that was being discussed. Do you, any more than Pairadox or I, regard it as useful to the troubled teens who might come to read it -- or to concerned friends or relatives? Now, please try a hypothetical thought experiment. Suppose someone assigned you and I to start with the references in the sidebar of my blog and rebuild that article so that it could get WP:GA -- and also simultaneously, merely by the use of notable facts and a writing style with some trace of warmth or awareness, give people the encouragement, information, and wherewithal to contact the available crisis hotlines or professional help. Could we do it -- respecting both of the goals just stated? Think of it as a sheer challenge to our intelligence and writing ability.

• Now try a second thought experiment. Suppose, instead, that we were assigned to write such a WP:GA on homeless LGBT teens. The sidebar in my blog gives several references -- including a well-researched and -documented report from the NGLTF -- and including a series of 3 reports (from 2003, 2005, and 2007) paid for by the New York City Council and prepared by the nonpartisan, non-gay Empire State Coalition of Social Workers -- so such an article would have no possible problems with notability or research. In this hypothetical article, would we need to get rhetorical -- or could we just state the facts neutrally and let them speak for themselves? (Among the documented, neutral facts that would emerge are these: 3,800 people under 25 live on streets of NY City, and 30% are LGBT. This is 3 times the % of NY’s LGBT community. Social service agencies have 78 beds for them. 42% sleep on streets, in subways or empty buildings. Many turn to prostitution to spend the night.)

• Now try a third experiment -- a WP:GA on children who are abused at home or bullied at school for being (or being perceived as) LGBT.

• So, . . . er, . . . like, . . . uh, . . . what exactly is it about the suggestions I made in that post (although I do admit that my rhetoric and anger were way over the top) that could be construed as wild-eyed, flaming, impractical, or contrary to the nature, guidelines, or policies of WP?

All this of course, is just my not-very-humble opinion. I mean, you know how reasonable I am. William P. Coleman (talk) 15:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

To respond to the least important thing first, robot deletionism, I am very encouraged that I have gotten 2 emails from admins saying "we need you, keep it up", and I made a comment about that on my talk page. I am also supported by an enormous ego, big enough to believe that 1. I have some understanding of both sides of a certain cultural divide, and 2. I will eventually feel a sense of success in making a certain amount of peace between the two camps, although this is quite a difficult problem. But back to you.

>Around WP, even my friends misinterpret and misread me.

That's not my read of what I said...but then, if I'm misreading you, it wouldn't be, would it? The first thing I wrote in response was "Ack! That was a random thought that plopped out of my head, but I really appreciate the time you took to help me to get to understand your realities." But this is being flip, and also inaccurate. What's going on here is that simply the word "genocide" suggests that you feel the same way that I do, that many people are allowing themselves to treat the needs of gay teens in a cold and inhuman way which is contributing to teen suicide. What I told you is something that I have come to understand which makes me feel better about what sometimes seems to be a very stupid and unfeeling world. I read Teenage suicide, and I agree with your point completely. In fact, I think you're right on all the issues you mention, and if somehow I could get more of the GLBT community in NC to communicate with you and people like you on Wikipedia, I think it would help make them more effective. I've got an awards thing with the NC ACLU tonight (Lewis Black is speaking!), I'll talk with people there about the issues you're raising. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 19:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

P.S. John goes to NYC 4 times a year for the national board meetings, and occasionally I come along...please let me know if you're going to be in NYC in April or July, I'd like to catch a meal. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 19:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

P.P.S. The "wikiproper" thing is a good point, and I'll clarify over at ADMINLOG...you know the place. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 19:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

P.P.P.S. Actually the "clarification" is on my user (not talk) page...comments are welcome. I've been changing some of my comments over at WP:ROBO to be more "wikiproper", my guess is that my edits are entirely in line with what you and Jameson, and I, want now, but tell me if I'm wrong. Btw, I think you and I have a lot in common in our approach to activism, as you'll see. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 15:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Novels WikiProject Newsletter - Issue XXI - February 2008

The February 2008 issue of the Novels WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

This is an automated delivery by KevinalewisBot --12:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] User talk:Dank55/essays

Hi Bill, I'm writing an essay for WP:WPMoS, and you're welcome to give input if you like. I hope I can ask your advice now and then for projects like this. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 19:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Dan, please do. If I can help with this or -- as I mentioned before -- if you or any robotics people would like me to help with articles about specific robots or other specific topics, I'd be happy to. Please note, however, that I'm continuing to be in and out of town until at least the end of next week and snowed under with day job projects. Other than you and robotics, however, the work I've been doing lately reminds me how much I have to contribute in the real world. My feelings about Wikipedia and Wikipedians are extremely dim. My general plans are to revise my Nausea article and then to seek out other obviously notable articles that I'm interested but that I'm sure no other Wikipedian is likely to give a damn about. There are millions of such articles on arts topics. I'll work on them by myself, in my own time, and try to get them through the DYK --> GA --> FA process. Best wishes, Bill. William P. Coleman (talk) 20:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

>reminds me how much I have to contribute in the real world.

That put a smile on my face, it sounds like things are going well for you, good luck! There is much to cheer and much to curse on Wikipedia...it's just a collection of people, some of whom are wonderful, such as yourself. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 20:14, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] LGBT WikiProject Newsletter

The LGBT studies WikiProject Newsletter

The LGBT studies WikiProject Newsletter! Issue XIV - February 29, 2008 Article Milestones The leprechaun is a male faerie in Irish mythology. We have one new Featured Article this month - Emily Dickinson was recently promoted thanks to the hard work of Yllosubmarine! We also have 4 new GA-class articles: Ben Daniels, J. Michael Bailey, Rainer Werner Fassbinder, and Walt Whitman were promoted this month, but Dante's Cove was demoted. Wikinews Things are happening over at Wikipedia sister project Wikinews. First, Nicholas Turnbull became the first openly-Trans reporter to gain (resounding) accreditation by the Wikinews community. Second, project member David Shankbone is going to Rio de Janeiro at the invitation of the Rio Convention & Visitor's Bureau. Wikinews:Portal:LGBT Lambda Book Report Project member Moni3 has been working on the article for Barbara Gittings and noted that the Lambda Literary Foundation used the lead paragraph from Wikipedia, skillfully and lovingly written by Moni3, verbatim in the Lambda Literary Pioneers calendar. Moni3 contacted the Lambda Literary Foundation to let them know, and to ask if we could get a little write-up in the next Lambda Book Report. There is a preliminary text you can find here. Feel free to add to it. It should be no longer than 1,000 words, and it needs to be submitted by March 15. New members Let's give a big LGBT welcome to all our new members: Dylankidwell (talk · contribs), Jay*Jay (talk · contribs), Ftmichael (talk · contribs), AgnosticPreachersKid (talk · contribs), Phyesalis (talk · contribs) , Tullerk (talk · contribs), Ravenwhitehorse (talk · contribs), TigressofIndia (talk · contribs), Yohan euan o4 (talk · contribs), Masculinity (talk · contribs), Renegade Replicant (talk · contribs), and Youngwebprogrammer (talk · contribs)! User categories Place yourself in a user category so you can collaborate with other LGBT/Allied Wikipedians! Mostly for allies of LGBT people; To place yourself in Category:Wikipedians interested in LGBT issues, just add [[Category:Wikipedians interested in LGBT issues|?]] to your userpage and change the question mark to your username OR add this userbox by placing {{User:UBX/LGBTinterest}} on your userpage. Mostly for people who identify as either Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual or Transgender; To place yourself in Category:LGBT Wikipedians, just add [[Category:LGBT Wikipedians|?]] to your userpage and change the question mark to your username OR add a userbox found at User:Xaosflux/UBX/Sexuality#Sexual orientation. St. Patrick's Day In honor of Saint Patrick's Day, why don't you consider improving one of these articles: Homosexuality and Roman Catholicism, LGBT rights in the Republic of Ireland, Campaign for Homosexual Law Reform, Recognition of gay unions in Ireland, List of gay and lesbian resource centres in Ireland, or any of the articles in our to-do list? Women's History Month March is Women's History Month in the United States. Help us celebrate by improving History of lesbianism or Lesbian American history! You could also find references for women in our giant list of LGB people to be sorted. To stop receiving this newsletter, or to receive it in a different format, please let us know here. If you have any news or any announcements to be broadcast, do let us know.

Delivered by SatyrBot around 17:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC) SatyrBot (talk) 18:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Novels Collaboration of the Month

You supported The Betrothed, which has been selected as the Novels WikiProject's new Collaboration of the Month. Please help improve this article towards featured article standard. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 10:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Novels WikiProject Newsletter - Issue XXII - March 2008

The March 2008 issue of the Novels WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This is an automated delivery by KevinalewisBot --18:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Novels - 1st Coordinators Election

An election has been proposed and has been set up for this project. Description of the roles etc., can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Coordinators. If you wish to stand, enter your candidacy before the end of March and ask your questions of anyone already standing at Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Coordinators/May 2008. Voting will start on the 1st April and close at the end of April. The intention is for the appointments to last from May - November 2008. For other details check out the pages or ask. KevinalewisBot (talk) 14:21, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Novels WikiProject Newsletter - Issue XXIII - April 2008

The April 2008 issue of the Novels WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 23:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Novels WikiProject Newsletter - Issue XXIV - May 2008

The May 2008 issue of the Novels WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. SteveCrossinBot (talk) 08:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] LGBT WikiProject Newsletter

The LGBT studies WikiProject Newsletter

The LGBT studies WikiProject Newsletter! Issue XV: June 11, 2008 Hello, members and friends of WP:LGBT! I'm not one to be writing newsletters, but I miss our cruise director, Miss Julie, and our project is drifting along with a few leaking plugs in the bottom of the boat. Hey, it happens. Every group we join goes through changes. If Wikipedia weren't so interesting it wouldn't also be so frustrating sometimes. And vice versa. More than one Wikiproject has tumbleweeds blowing through it, but this is one that can't afford to let that happen. Even if you pop in to the talk page of the project, you can let us know you're still around. [edit] WP:LGBT's Role in HIV / AIDS articles It wouldn't be a proper gay community without a li'l bit o' drama! That's right. If we aren't arguing about something, then we should be asking if we're still queer. Maybe that's for the best, since we know we're still kicking. Our most recent topic is how far the role of our project should go in dipping our toes into HIV/AIDS articles. The main AIDS article was delisted as a Featured Article last month, sadly. (Sending a swift kick to WP:Medicine.) A spirited discussion is available for your entertainment on the WP:LGBT talk page about just how much of HIV and AIDS should we take on. As ever, we'll take your opinions under advisement. We're going to have to, because it doesn't seem to have been settled. [edit] Is Pride POV? We have a pretty cool sidebar that identifies core LGBT articles. Its symbol is the iconic gay pride flag, much like other Wikiprojects have iconic symbols denoting the topic is a core subject in a series of articles. However, a question recently arose asking if the symbol itself is not neutral. Should a pride flag show up at the top of the article on Conversion therapy? How else would anyone know the article is about queer issues? Is there another symbol that is as widely recognized and that includes all our many splintered facets? At what point do we stop asking ourselves all these questions and just go have a mint julep on the verandah and stop caring? [edit] Harvey Milk and Jim Jones For the love of all that is holy, no Kool Aid jokes. However, an editor involved in pioneering San Francisco Supervisor Harvey Milk's article has included a section about the late supervisor's support of Jim Jones and the People's Temple. While it may be accurate, there is a Request for Comment regarding how much emphasis the section places on Milk's support in light of his overall political influence on the city, and indeed the rest of the United States. Milk's article is a sad one in more ways than one. It lacks the detail and heart that honors its subject. Anyone want to do a barter with me? I'll bring Harvey Milk to featured status (give me a month or two so I can read stuff), if you do something of equal value to WP:LGBT?? Make me an offer... [edit] Queer Studies is offensive! The established branch of study known as Queer studies was brought up as an category for deletion because an editor was offended by the use of "queer" in the title. It was overwhelmingly rejected mostly by the usernames I see here on our Wikiproject page. (A clue that I know you are out there, hiding...biding your time...) So, I wish I could congratulate you, but now I'm all confused by my sympathy for the editor who was offended. So, if you're reading this, Moni has a short memory and can't remember your username. Don't be put off by our demonstrative pushiness. Join us. We can always use involved editors. [edit] Lambda Literary Awards What can you do to help the project out? Be a wiki-fairy, on many levels. There are all kinds of articles that need help. Why, just this morning I removed those ugly wikify and cleanup tags from four articles at random. If you can put [[ ]] around stuff, you can clean up articles. There's a list of articles that need attention at the top of the WP:LGBT talk page. Or you can start with the Lambda Literary Awards, where the goddess of my altar received a pioneering award, and was "reduced to rubble" by Katherine V. Forrest's wonderful speech. The 20th ceremony of the Lambda Literary Awards, which celebrates LGBT literature, took place in West Hollywood on May 29th [1]. The page needs to be updated with the new winners, to be found on the official website [2]. [edit] Yeshayahu Leibowitz, Arthur C. Clarke and Bernard Montgomery Why on earth would someone want to delete material about homosexuality? 'Tis truly a mystery. But these embattled articles have some random evil gnomes removing information that places these folks under our queer umbrella. Help us keep an eye out for the deletions. Take a peek at the articles, familiarize yourselves with the info, and be handy with the undo function in the article history. If tempers flare, take it to the Hall monitors and let them sort it out. Best solution is to make sure your sources are immaculate. [edit] This month's Wiki stars This is what I get for opening my big fat mouth and suggesting the newsletter should be revived. Here I am writing it. So, to pat self on back (*cough*) Mulholland Dr. became a featured article in May. This is A Good Thing since it is my personal declaration that there is no such thing as lesbian porn. I don't care what Benjiboi says about the video collection at goodvibes. Instead, we have hot women who connect on a deep, personal, soul-touching level, so this film should qualify as some of the skankiest porn available for lesbians. Plus, it's completely confusing and surreal! D'you think Laura Harring would care that the article is featured? I don't think so either... (Call me, Laura!) [edit] Compulsive hoarding of templates Once I saw a harrowing episode of Animal Planet's Animal Cops where this guy had, like, 250 cats in his house and it freaked me right out. I'm drawing a parallel between 250 cats and, well...three, really, templates in articles involving LGBT issues. Can we stick to one, maybe? In the aforementioned Harvey Milk's article there's a core LGBT template, a link to the LGBT portal, and a sidebar for LGBT rights. Jiminy! You'd think we weren't the folk to set industrial grey carpeting and track lighting in vogue. An LGBT footer was designed to link to articles of interest that aren't the aforementioned core articles. What do you think, can we have either an LGBT template for core articles, a footer for LGBT articles that are high profile but not core, or an LGBT rights template? As ever, anything's up for discussion on the WP:LGBT talk page. [edit] The Violet Quill and magazines Zigzig20s suggests we create an article on The Violet Quill, as it seems such a milestone in the advancement of gay/queer literature. Members of the Quill all have pages of their own (Edmund White, Christopher Cox, Robert Ferro, Michael Grumley, Andrew Holleran, Felice Picano, and George Whitmore). We need to find more info on the Quill per se to reference the page that we create. Perhaps Google Books - and libraries? - can help. A number of magazines also need articles, perhaps most notably QW, LGNY, and Lesbian Feminist Liberation. [edit] Mom's nagging for Pride Month It's June, Pride month. Wear sunscreen, stay hydrated, get a designated driver, then go half-dressed in the streets find a girlfriend or boyfriend, or some homo who's standing there looking lonely and kiss 'em up real good. Remember, it all started 39 years ago when a bunch of drag queens just got fed the f*ck up by the cops raiding the bar and dragging them all out to the pokey again. Rock on, queens! Enjoy your celebrations. My town's is in October, and 200 people attend. I miss Denver. [edit] Fresh faces to brighten our pages Hey, I've seen you around! Sorry there seem to be so many—it's been a while. But we welcome you all: Cheezisyum21, Taineyah, Dustihowe, Avesta69, RachelSummers77, Vivekgopinathan, AMK1211, Staffwaterboy , Ted Ted, Joe5150, Leahtwosaints, Robapalooza, Arthomure, Confusionball, Affinity likely, PrinceOfCanada, Yobmod, Npd2983, Neagley, Bvlax2005, Bvlax2005, Rhullsf, Textorus, Kieran.casey, Tyciol, Meojive, Sappho'd, Bookkeeperoftheoccult, Gaywarrior, Aujourd'hui, maman est morte, and Balin42632003. It looks like we've picked up a lot of talent lately. We have no doubt you'll be making your indelible mark on LGBT knowledge as we know it, here at Wikipedia. In the immortal words of Miss Julie, "May all your Wiki days be bright, and may your Love Boat never turn into a Poseidon." We miss you, Miss Julie, as well as all the others who have graced our project and are on wiki-breaks or just got fed up with all the nuttiness and went to live their lives. Get your stupid houses built and hurry up and come back. --Moni3 (talk) 16:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC) To stop receiving this newsletter, or to receive it in a different format, please let us know here. If you have any news or any announcements to be broadcast, do let Moni3 know.

This newsletter was delivered by §hepBot around 16:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC). ShepBot (talk) 16:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)