Talk:Wilna Administrative Area

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Shouldn't this article be moved to either Wilna Gebiet (its official name at the time) or Wilna Area (as the translation would suggest)? Halibutt 05:59, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

This is the direct translation of Lithuanian name "Valdžios nuovada" (government precinct), which is written on the original map together with German name (and as I don't speak German, I couldn't have translated it directly). I thought at first werether to leave untranslated German names such as Litauen Sud but later decided just to make redirects from these names and translate to English as this is English Wikipedia. Is Wilna Gebiet the same thing BTW? In the German translation of map there is no such written thing as Gebiet anywhere. The boundaries are explained as "Grenzen der Verwaltungberzike Kowno, Wilna und Litauen-Sud" in German. Maybe it was formed only after Lithuanian Province was formed and Wilna Gebiet was previously? DeirYassin 06:55, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No idea, really. As a matter of fact it's the first time I hear of such entities. Were they parts of Ober-Ost, of Lithuania, or were they just proposals of administrative reform in the German-occupied eastern Europe? The article series yoiu created so far does not give a hint...

As to the name - the Wilna Gebiet was the name of the administrative area of the Ober-Ost formed in late 1915. The following year a census was held there and the name was used there. Was the Verwaltungberzik Wilna any different in terms of borders or was it simply a name change? Also, "Wilna Gebiet" should be translated as "Wilna Area" or "Area of Wilna" while the "Verwaltungberzik Wilna" should rather be translated as "Wilna Administrative Area" (Verwaltung is administration in English). The German name you give does not mention any government, contrary to the current name of this article. Halibutt 09:15, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

I am unable to find any map of Wilna Gebiet so I could not compare. I myself did not hear much about these entities, but seen them in a few maps of this time and such, so I created articles and written what I know and left the else to be completed by someone who knows more. Unfortunately, not much is available on Lithuanian history online, maybe I'll try to search for some book about WW1 in Lithuania later (however, WW1 is kinda neglected as for books, there are way more books on interwar period, WW2 in Lithuania, partisan war and such). At the map I used to draw the map on Southern Lithuania and such, the explaination given is: "During the World War 1 the German-occupied Lithuania belonged to Ober Ost: administrational-territorial unit, established in 1915 in lands occuppied by German army in Eastern front. The administrational division of Ober Ost was constantly changing. In July of 1918 the government/administration (same word can mean both in Lithuanian) of German Eastern front established the Lithuanian province" (Lithuanian: Lietuvos sritis). However in the map you previously linked me to, at www.lietuva.lt , Vilnius is named as "Center of Lithuanian province since 1917 03 15, Capital - since 1918 02 16".

In the map I have a copy of (which is from a book with copies of various original historical maps of Lithuania) there is also mentioned in the legend of the map the borders of "Provinzialverwaltung Kurland" (which is outside Lithuanian Province), "der Gouvernments in Polen und der Regierungsberzike Ost-preuBen" (there should be that German s instead of B). Also, "Kreisverwaltung Suwalki", which is art of Lithuanian province, but seems to be outside all three government precincts as it is separately mentioned. The wide borders, called "Landegrenzen", separates the Lithuanian province, East Prussia, Kurland, Poland, Ukraine and Russia; names for all these countries are written (Deutsches Reich as for East Prussia). The eastern border with Russia (of both Lithuanian province and Courland) goes along the line of the separational peace treaty between Germany and Russia. Courland by the way seems to include more areas than Courland and Semigallia duchy did, probably it encompasses Latvia in general, although it is not clear from the map as only Lithuanian province is shown as a whole and north of Courland is not. So maybe this was a German attempt to establish permanent entities in the area based on local nationalities... Anyways, maybe User:Zivinbudas or User:Dirgela could tell more as they seems to know more about history of Lithuania than I do.DeirYassin 10:15, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] textbook

My textbook "History of Lithuanian state and law" (Lietuvos valstybės ir teisės istorija, Vilnius, 1997) and article in German wikipedia on Ober Ost says following:

• Lithuania was occupied in Autumn 1915.
• In 15 June 1915 Feldmarscahl Hindenburg in Tilsit has created Zivilverwaltung (civil administration) for Army Memel, which included parts of former Kaunas and Suwalki governorships. In 1916 6 districts (Verwaltungsbezirke) were created: Lithuanian, Vilnius, Suwalki, Bialystok, Grodno and Kurland. These deistricts were divided into subdistricts (Kreise). Administrations of districts were acting in the name of senior commander for East front. In 1916 in Kaunas-Suwalki military adminstration (Militaerverwaltung) was created. In March 15, 1917 Lithuanian military administration (Verwaltungsbezirk der Militaerverwaltung Litauen) was created by uniting former smaller military adminsitrations. It was subdivided into smaller units (Kreis - 31 in total). To find out German names for these divisions in 1917-8 I used map created in 1918 by G.Schultze printed in collection of maps "Lietuva žemėlapiuose" (1999).

I am probably not good in English, but I've never heard the combination of words "government precinct" before and I think it is completely inapropriate here. As it is clear from what I was writing above, all these divisions had nothing to do with self-government which was not existing until the end of 1918. Dirgela 17:15, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

btw. both Vilnius government precinct and Kaunas government precinct seem to me a complete nonsense, as these articles are inacurate in facts and written based on accidental sources and guesses. Dirgela 17:19, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lithuanian is "Valdžios nuovada", I translated directly ("Valdžia" - "government", "nuovada" - "precinct"). So Lithuanian province established in 1918 July is not true also? Strange, as I have information indicaing that it is. Or do you mean self government by that Lithuanian province? ("Lietuvos sritis" in Lithuanian). Those are subdivisions of that Lietuvos sritis (government precincts I mean). I guess you have same book as I do if so than these units as well as explainations are in 164th page. (hough mine is probably rerease, it's also called "Lietuva Žemėlapiuose" but is released in 2002)DeirYassin 17:42, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is a genious idea to translate the name of administrative area into Lithuanian and then translate it to English. The final result - complete nonsense ;) "Nuovada" means "police-office" in English. What it has to do with any kind of administrative division of Lithuania during WWI? And valdžia is not "government", it's "(state) power" in English. So what we've got? "State power police-office"? Where have you got this "valdžios nuovada"? Do you understand what does it mean in Lithuanian? "Lietuva žemėlapiuose" has only 151 page, sorry. Dirgela 21:28, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As I said, in that book I have, also called Lietuva Žemėlapiuose, there is a map of Lithuanian province with explaination near it whcih I already translated in this discussion. That map is bilingual in both Lithuanian and German, both legend of it and city/town names are bilingual; it is a real map released at the said time. The Verwaltungberzike in Lithuanian is written as "Valdžios nuovada" on the map. The translation is not mine, it is written taht way on the map. Actually, the excerpts from the legend of map: "Kauno, Vilniaus, pietinės Lietuvos valdžios nuovadų ribos, Sąvalkų apskričio valdžios siena, Kuršo provincialinės valdžios Lenkijos gubernijos ir Rytprūsių valdymo nuovadų ribos.", "Valdžios nuovadų buveinė Lietuvoje, provincialinės valdžios Kurše, Lenkijos gubernijų ir Rytprūsių nuovadų valdymo buveinės". As for authors of map, Friederichsen and Keller are mentioned. And nuovada also means precinct BTW (precinct is also used for police office). DeirYassin 22:37, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Do not use litteral translations. If you would look closer to this map you will find translation Landesgrenzen - Valdijų ribos. In contemporary Lithuanian we would translate that as "Žemių sienos". The same with "Landesbezirk - nuovada", in contemporary Lithuanian it should be translated as "apskritis".Dirgela 19:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

As I indicated earlier in this talk, the correct translation of the German terms quoted by DeirYassin should be either Administrative Area or simply Area (depending on whether we accept the "Wilna Gebiet" or "Wilna Verwaltungberzik". Halibutt 19:58, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Demographics

What is the ground of the claims of nationality of the people ? What about their ethnicity ? --Lysy ^(talk) 22:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)