Talk:William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin

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William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: September 25, 2006

Contents

[edit] Heavier-than-air flight

The paragraph in question: "In 1895, as president of the Royal Society, Kelvin is quoted as saying, "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible,"[33] proven false a mere eight years later with the flight of Orville and Wilbur Wright's Wright Flyer at Kitty Hawk in 1903."

The source given seems highly dubious to me; does a throwaway reference in the abstract of a biochemistry article ("We conclude that the GPCR modelling field is riddled with ‘common knowledge’ similar to Lord Kelvin’s remark") really constitute a reliable source for something like this?Deadlyhair (talk) 02:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong year of marriage

I cite: "He married Margaret Gardner in 1817 and, of their children, four boys and two girls survived infancy."

Lord Kelvin wasn't even born in 1817. It would be nice to know how many children they had, but maybe that's asking too much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.153.151.172 (talk) 22:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)



[edit] Thermodynamics missing

His contributions to thermodynamics are missing.

The observation under "luddite" in this discussion needs to be addressed. He does not seem to be against progress ... quite the contrary. However he does reflect the scientific complacence that was setting into nineteenth century Physics due to crowning successes of Newton, Hamilton, Maxwell ... and most importatly the science of Thermodynamics to which Thompson was himself a pioneering contributor.

His remark was more like "All the laws of Physics are now known. It only remains to make more precise measurements". He was of course in for a rude shock if he lived into the next century beyond the first decade.

Considering his zealous support for practial and applicable nature of science his condescending remark "In science there is Physics. All otehr is stamp collection". Of course the nature of Botany and Zoology in his time perhaps reflcted that.

Thus some of his strong opinions need to cast in the context of his times ...

His more sanguine remark seems to be "We have the sober scientific certainty that the heavens and earth shall 'wax old as doth a garment" Refer the link at zapatopi

--Yajnikiitb 2 July 2005 05:59 (UTC)


[edit] English ...?

He was "petted by older students"? I wonder if that's some local dialect that could be translated into something like standard English? Michael Hardy 01:46 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)

As per the Wikipedia naming conventions, the page ought to be at William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin. Several individuals know Sir William as Lord Kelvin, so I cannot submit the objection that the title of a commoner is much more well-known than that of a peer in the case of Lord Kelvin. -- Lord Emsworth 15:40, Jan 4, 2004 (UTC)

It's very confusing now. He is referred to by 3 different names with no explanation of Baron vs. Lord. Doesn't everyone know him as Lord Kelvin?Bhny 18:35, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Source

Much of this text originally came from the book Heroes of the Telegraph by John Munro, available at Project Gutenberg: [1]. Lupo 14:16, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] a luddite?

When I watched the comedy movie "Around the world in eighty days" by Jackie Chan, the Lord Kelvin portraited in the movie was against scientific advances. He made comments like "Whatever scientific discovery needed by mankind was already found". Then the movie director's commentary said that this character was based on the real person and his ridiculous comments and views. The movie purposely ridiculed him for what he was. Though it is POV to judge on his personality and belief, it would be neutral to quote some of his views here in this article. Kowloonese 23:39, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)

Well, certainly a Jackie Chan movie is an authoratative source of unassailable integrity, so that's good enough for me. Also, don't forget the information on Charlie Chaplin that can be gleaned from "Shanghai Knights". --P3d0 18:33, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tide predicting machine

We have a picture of an alleged tide predicting machine with no mention in the article body itself. --P3d0 18:14, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Heritage

Would not he be considered Scottish, rather than Irish? Anglius
This bothers me too. We have here an Irish Glaswegian! It think that Irish-Scottish is probably right. Cutler 23:50, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
Just because he lived in Scotland? That's very tenuous at best, he was born in Northern Ireland to Northern Irish parents, therefore Northern Irish and no Scottish in him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.234.249 (talk) 15:24, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I thank you, Mr. Cutler, for having written that. --Anglius 17:43, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
He is what is called an "Ulster Scot." Hamilton 19:52, 9 October 2007
I notice that the opening line of the article describes him as Irish and links to the article on the Republic of Ireland. Presumably that needs to be changed? VJDocherty (talk) 12:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Extra content

I found this text hidden in a comment at the end of the article! Bizarre!

I feel that as much of the technical detail as possible sould go to transatlantic telegraph cable (an article needing attention) while trying to keep Thomson as self-contained as possible.

< !-- More detail which belongs elsewhere It was known that the conductor should be of copper, possessing a high conductivity for the electric current, and that its insulating jacket of gutta-percha should offer a great resistance to the leakage of the current. Moreover, experience had shown that the protecting sheath or armour of the core should be light and flexible as well as strong, in order to resist external violence and allow it to be lifted for repair. There was another consideration, however, which at this time was rather a puzzle. As early as 1823, Francis Ronalds had observed that electric signals were retarded in passing through an insulated wire or core laid under ground, and the same effect was noticeable on cores immersed in water, and particularly on the lengthy cable between England and the Hague. Faraday showed that it was caused by induction between the electricity in the wire and the earth or water surrounding it. A core, in fact, is an attenuated Leyden jar; the wire of the core, its insulating jacket, and the soil or water around it stand respectively for the inner tinfoil, the glass, and the outer tinfoil of the jar. -->

Cutler 07:38, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Moved content to Submarine communications cable or deleted as duplicated. Cutler 15:56, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Fears were realized" confusing paragraph

I was confused by this paragraph, mainly by the first sentence because it stated earlier that Thomson did experiments to find better ways of doing things for the cable went head-to-head with Whitehouse before on it. Why would his "fears be realized" when a comparative study showed that his experiments actually were better than Whitehouse's?

"Thomson's fears were realised and Whitehouse's apparatus proved insufficiently sensitive and had to be replaced by Thomson's mirror galvanometer. Whitehouse continued to maintain that it was his equipment that was providing the service and started to engage in desperate measures to remedy some of the problems. He only succeded in fatally damaging the cable by applying 2,000 V. When the cable failed completely Whitehouse was dismissed, though Thomson objected and was reprimanded by the board for his interference. Thomson subsequently regretted that he had acquiesced too readily to many of Whitehouse's proposals and had not challenged him with sufficient energy"

[edit] President of Royal Society box

The President of the Royal Society box is confusing. Why are there two boxes each for preceded and succeeded, and what do "New Creation" and "Extinct" mean? This should be fixed or at least made a little more self-explanatory.--ragesoss 16:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Now I see that it refers to his title of Baron, created for him and not passed down. But for people who happen upon this article without being familiar with the nobility boxes, it will seem like it is part of the royal society box (unlike Lister, where the boxes are separate).--ragesoss 16:23, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did I miss something?????

Didnt he invent the electrostatic generator? Why wasn't mentioned Or did i miss something (which is possible).

[edit] Some references may need double-checking

I just reformatted the references to the new cite.php style and repaired some broken links and ambiguities in the process. Specifically, the reference names "KT11" and "S5" had been used twice for different references, there were references named "KT7", "KT8", "KT9" and "Bu" at the bottom that weren't used in the body of the article, and there were links in the body of the article to the nonexistent references "bu1", "wt6", "wt7" and "wt8". I believe I've corrected all of these, but since I'm not familiar with these references could someone double-check me? Now that cite.php is in use it should hopefully prevent this sort of problem in the future since incorrect labelling and linking is a lot harder to do by accident with it. Bryan 01:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Doozy of a claim in Geology section

"Though Thomson continued to defend his estimates, privately he admitted that they were most probably wrong." It would be nice to have a citation for this. I haven't seen this claimed anywhere else. As far as I understand the history Kelvin's objections to evolution, based on estimates on the earth' s age, were a serious problem for Darwin and company. --Sam nead 05:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Burchfield, J. D. 1975. Lord Kelvin and the age of the earth. Science History Publ., New York. 260 pp is apparently a reference for this; Age of the Earth has a nice story about Rutherford giving a lecture with Kelvin in the audience where he realised he was about to contradict Kelvin.

Apepper 15:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Knot theory/atomic theory

Why isn't there any information here about how he was responsible for the start of Knot theory (a branch of mathematics)? He proposed that particles could also be waves if they were large knots in aether.

[edit] Auto Peer Review

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.

  • Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at WP:LEAD. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.[1]
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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Mal 06:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lord Kelvin's dictum

Lord Kelvin's dictum, If you cannot measure, then your knowledge is meagre and unsatisfactory is an oft-quoted but abbreviated summary of, "I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced to the stage of Science, whatever the matter may be." DFH 16:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Fails

I am failing this one instead of giving the hold I had expected because of one major issue:

  • DEATH. Biographies, whether scholarly tomes or online open-content encyclopedias, usually give some information about how the subject shuffled off this mortal coil. But this article just sort of peters out around 1900, leaving the last seven years accounted for. I cannot even begin to consider this comprehensive without it.

And the other issues:

  • Unsourced sections On the other end of the biography, the family section has no footnotes whatsoever, despite the kind of specific facts that are sourced in other sections. Some other paragraphs also need sources, or more sources.
I am tagging the article before that section. Daniel Case 20:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Huh?' What the hell is this sentence:"To understand the technical issues in which Thomson became involved, see Submarine communications cable: Bandwidth problems" doing smack dab in the middle of that paragraph under the transatlantic cable? We just don't do things that way. Find a way to write the link into the article without being self-referential.
  • Wife and family The first Mrs. Thomson shows up in the story only so she can die in 1870 and clear the way for the second. I'd like to know more about both of them, and any children they had. He had to have a life outside of work, after all. If you can have a section on his religious beliefs, you can have a section on his personal life if the source is there.

That said, the article is otherwise comprehensive and well-written, not always easy for a physicist bio. Keep up the good work. Daniel Case 03:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nothing about panspermia?

I think that it would be interesting to mention. Thomson, William (Lord Kelvin) - David Darling's encyclopedia --Extremophile 06:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did he say: Radio has no future?

I saw in the page Failed predictions that Kelvin in 1897 said "Radio has no future" (citation needed). Is it true? What is the source of this sentence? Thank you. [Hamlet 4th apr 2007]

There are lots of references to the quotation on the web; around 133,000 hits on google. I can't find the origin of the quote - he also apparently said that "X-rays will prove to be a hoax". Apepper 18:27, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Also where is the source for "heavier-than-air flight is impossible"? Would he really have been unaware that heavier than air flight was a well established fact in 1895? What he did say was that it was impractical and had no commercial future. (Letter to Baden Powell 1896 and interview with Newark Advocate 1902) Robin Herbert61.88.244.4 (talk) 02:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Listing for re-assessment

I'm listing this article for re-assessment. --Setanta 02:18, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Good article reassessment is not the appropriate place to carry on this discussion. The article is not on the GA list, and was last reviewed as a Good Article Nominee over 1 year ago, when it failed. The discussion has been archived. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Can you please clarify your advice? As far as I was aware, Wikipedia:Good article reassessment is the place one submits articles for reassessment for GA status. At least - that makes logical sense to me.
“ if you believe that the explanation given was unreasonable, and that the article does fulfill all the requirements, or that the explanation given was inadequate and you need more feedback, then you can ask other editors to reassess the article and/or the decision here ”
“ It is not necessary to go through this process unless there is a disagreement about the article's status. ”

I disagree with the article's status. I can't follow the logic in what you have said. However, a member of the GA team has given me the information I need to know, and I will act on that now. Cheers. --Setanta 05:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC)