Talk:William R. King

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[edit] Controversy

Considering the controversy over exactly whom King County, Washington is named for, should we add a note to this entry? I imagine it's the only major thing still bearing his name, but don't want to suggest a non-NPOV on the question of which King is honored by King County. Just curious: I'm new here, and don't want to step on toes. -- Jwrosenzweig

I don't have a problem with it Smith03

I deleted the reference to being sworn in at Havana. He was sworn in by the American consul at Havana, but the oath was not administered in that city. PedanticallySpeaking

[edit] March 4 or March 24

King was sworn in as Vice President on March 24, yet his term began on March 4 (according to the US Constitution). When did he become VP? Mightberight/wrong 19:53, 8 November 2005 (UTC).

When his term began. john k 05:00, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• Just as I thought, March 4. Have you noticed in the articles Vice President of the United States & List of Vice Presidents of the USA length of time in office (also vp vacancies) the date seems to always be March 24? It seems there's 2 interpretations? 1) a person becomes VP when term begins (by date) or 2) a person becomes VP when the oath of office is administered. PS. I agree March 4 is correct Mightberight/wrong 1:52, 12 November 2005 (UTC).

• I've corrected both lists. March 4 is the correct date. The Oath does not make someone the officer. --Mark Adler 18:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

His Congressional biography indicates his swearing in was also on March 4th, not the 24th. The other independent sources I have found agree with this. It is possible he had multiple oaths (the first one counts, as did Calvin Coolidge's first swearing in by his father who was only a justice of the peace). Given the Congressional biography, we need sourcing for the 24th and that any previous oath he may have taken was invalid, before we can assert that he was not sworn in on the 4th. NoSeptember 02:29, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

You're right. The only support for March 24 seems to be the Senate's web site, http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/VP_William_R_King.htm, which states,

In November, King began to suffer from a worsening cough. A month later, he described himself as looking like a skeleton and told friends he doubted that he would ever recover. On December 20, two weeks into the short December-March congressional session, King resigned his Senate seat and made plans to regain his health away from wintertime Washington. On January 17, 1853, King left for the more salutary climate of Cuba, by way of Key West, Florida; he reached Havana in early February. Soon realizing that he would be unable to return to Washington in time for the March 4, 1853, inauguration, King requested that Congress permit him to take his oath in Cuba. Consequently, for the only time in this nation's history, Congress passed legislation allowing the vice-president-elect to be sworn in outside the country. On March 24, 1853, near Matanzas, a seaport town sixty miles east of Havana, the gravely ill statesman, too feeble to stand unaided, became the nation's thirteenth vice president. Deciding that he would make every effort to return to the United States, King set sail for Mobile on April 6. He reached his Alabama plantation on April 17, but his struggle was at an end. The sixty-seven-year-old King died there the following day. An opposition newspaper praised his "purity and patriotism" and concluded, "[t]hough not, perhaps, brilliant, he was better—sensible, honest, never running into ultraism, but in the contests between the State and the federal government, maintaining the true conservative medium, so necessary to the preservation of the constitution, the rights of the States and the Republic."

This conflicts with the other sources, however, including the usually-reliable Congressional Bioguide. Here's another source in support of March 4, which User:NoSeptember sent me: http://www.alabamastuff.com/wrk.html. It has this curious statement:

I am writing to you to give you some more information on the inauguration of Mr. King in Cuba. As reported in your write up, you say that he was inaugurated in Havana Cuba. I would like to clarify that point. He was inaugurated on my great-great grandfathers plantation in Matanzas Cuba. I have investigated this and found an article in the archives of the New York Herald dated March 12, 1853, and again on March 19,1853. He was sworn in at the 'Ariadne' Plantation of Col. John Chartrand. If you desire, I can send you more information in the future. Thank you. C. Richard Chartrand.

I recommend we continue to investigate this for a definitive source. I've contacted the Senate's Historian and I'm hoping for a reply soon.

As a sidenote, it still remains that his term began on March 4, regardless of the oath. But I don't think that's what we're discussing here.

--Mark Adler 11:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Part of the problem may be that the constitution does not define who may administer an oath, only that the office holder must take the oath. If King read the oath out loud from a piece of paper on March 4th, he satisfied the constitutional requirement, and if a Cuban official conducted it, he satisfied the requirement also. The subsequent oath taking could have been done for the avoiding of any disputes. There are many instances of office holders taking the oath multiple times (For example, big inauguration ceremonies on Sunday have been avoided for religious reasons, so a private ceremony on Sunday would be followed by the public event on Monday). The solution for this article may be to delete any reference to the oath and just go with the date he took office. NoSeptember 12:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the oath is irrelevant for any reason other than interesting history. I think, however, it should be kept in this article (William R. King) only, but not other articles (e.g. List of U.S. Vice Presidents by time in office). --Mark Adler 18:00, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

His physical location outside the US at the start of his term (and the reason for it, illness) is the interesting thing, not the date. If the date can be confirmed, of course, we can easily keep it. NoSeptember 18:12, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Hmmm… The Havana thing is really interesting. The date, if true, is still a small bit of trivia worth keeping here and leaving for the sake clarifying future researchers' confusion. Let's see if we can verify it. --Mark Adler 18:30, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Senate Historian

An email I received today from the Senate Historian's office, stated:

Hello Mark -
I took a look through our files and it is true that there are conflicting sources on this date even at the primary source level (several news sources gave varying reports). It appears that most sources, including the Senate Journal in 1853 and primary correspondence from the National Archives, indicate that the date was March 24, 1853.
Mary Baumann
Researcher - Writer
U.S. Senate Historical Office

So now what do we do? --Mark Adler 00:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC) (PS- Thanks to Ms. Baumann for her help!)

Perhaps we should report that there is a controversy over exactly when he took the oath. We should find out when Congress passed that bill relating to this inaugural. Since the VP is the President of the Senate, I would cite the Senate historian's interpretation in the article text itself, and then footnote the fact that there is uncertainty on the issue. NoSeptember 09:05, 15 November 2005 (UTC)