Talk:William N. Page

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Contents

[edit] Photo needed

We really need a photo of William Nelson Page. That is the biggest thing lacking in this very comeplete article. Help, anyone? Vaoverland 09:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I have been advised a photo will be available within 60-90 days. Meanwhile, any other would be great. Mark in Historic Triangle 14:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
UPDATE: There was a delay on permission for the photo, but it is still in the pipeline to add. Mark in Historic Triangle of Virginia (talk) 15:41, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] William N. Page

This was a self-nomination for featured article. I have been working on research on Col. Page for several years. This remarkable man was cofounder of the Virginian Railway. While Col Page's partner, millionaire industrialist Henry Huttleston Rogers, has received most of the published credit for building the VGN over the years, many of us have come to realize that Col. Page's role was a crucial portion of their partnership. It is a pleasure to record add this man's story (and that of the building of the Virginian Railway) to Wikipedia.

The information used in the article has been reviewed for accuracy and improvements by members of Virginian Railway (VGN) Enthusiasts yahoo group, which has over 750 members and includes authors and historians. I got a lot of help on content, but I am still learning how to write for Wikipedia, and appreciate suggestions and/or edits by others, and will try to respond to objections.

On this page, I will try to copy various threads from other pages will be copied here regarding changes and research items not used in the article, but possibly helpful for background.

[user:vaoverland].

I have searched far and wide for a photo of Page, without success to date. Thanks for all the help, suggestions, and encouragement in making this and the other articles more accurate and easier to read and work with. [user:vaoverland].

He seems to have been married[1](didn't look close enuf), and may have written a book, which I'm still trying to track down.(guess not, an unfortunately common name) BTW, you can sign your entries on Talk and 'backend' pages by typing ~~~ and add a time stamp using ~~~~ instead. Niteowlneils 04:10, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I also haven't been able to determine any information about William Page's marital status or whether he had any children. I have also found information about an author of the same name, but with different dates of birth/death. Thanks for tweaking the photos; they look much better. Vaoverland 05:33, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This[2] seems to indicate he had a female relative named Mary, but its not clear if it's sister, wife, or daughter. Seems like worth contacting to see if they can clarify, and if any pics/paintings of him are included in the documents. Also, if you search amazon.com for his full name in quotes, you get two books--might be worth trying to find them in a library, and/or contacting the authors to see if they can help with either issue. Great job merging the battle info into the battle article, BTW. Niteowlneils 15:50, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Great find on the additional description information of the WNP papers at UNC Chapel Hill! I have found other indications that Page had "relatives" in Staunton, VA (Augusta County). And thanks for the comments about the work on the Battle of Hampton Roads, a topic for which web searches turn up far more information! I have noticed a discrepancy about the length of the March 9 battle, 4 hours in one version of events, and over 9 hours in another. The longer period is more logically correct, but like the dates Page started work on the C&O, to be safe I have side-stepped the issue for now. BTW, for the dates I originally used to be correct, he would have been through with UVA and gone to work on the C&O at rather young age of 17 or so. It is possible that the birthdate used in wrong instead, as he was supposedly only 10 years younger than Rogers who born in 1841 (according to H. Reid). I will post this new information about Col. Page to VGN yahoo group and see if that helps anyone there with more info. Vaoverland 16:19, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Apparently, the collection of WNP papers donated to Duke University in 1952 found their way to UNC Chapel Hill. The description and even the item number matches, although the reference to the collection at Duke provides a little but more information, including the donor's name. Vaoverland 17:03, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There have been some improvements made during the past week, including more personal information, and I located and added a photo of the ship William N. Page. I have also run an additional spell check using the ieSpell program which was recommended by other Wikipedia users, and it caught several errors that my WP program had missed. Members of the VGN Yahoo group have been trying to help located a photo of Page. Thanks to all for the improvements to article as well as the help on the research to round things out. Vaoverland 01:56, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have been in email contact with folks from Lynchburg and Rustburg (Campbell County, VA) who had more information about Col. Page's family. The additional information won't fit into the article, which I am trying to edit to reduce the size, but it turns out that I have actually been in the house Page grew up in and know the current family. His brother is believed to have been a US Ambassador, possibly to France or Italy, and I have names of other relatives as well. This Wikipedia projects has proved rewarding to me in a number of ways I couldn't envision when I started working on it. Some additional information uncovered ion this process will be used in other articles I am also working on. Thanks to all who have contributed to this work-in-progress. Vaoverland 07:23, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • Object for now, although I would add that the article is generally impressive and I would like to see it featured. Some obvious problems: inadequate lead section; no references section; only the first word and proper nouns in headings should be capitalized. Markalexander100 03:45, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Lead section has been enhanced, references section added, and improper capitalizations in headings corrected User:Vaoverland
  • Support. This really does look impressive and it's well written. The objections above seem to have been addressed, the references section is truly impressive now! One comment, I'm unfamiliar with the history, but there seems to be a lot of adjectives used in headings and text, are these generally NPOV?
  • Support - very impressive - ZayZayEM 08:42, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Regarding neutral point of view, I may need help or suggestions in that area if y'all think it is biased. I know that Wikipedia articles are used by teachers as a basis for school projects. When composing, I visualize school children of middle school or high school age, and I try to keep it factual and interesting to read. It is an exciting and true story, and I would like the reader to be able to relate to some of the emotions the people involved experienced, if that is appropraite in the encyclopedia setting. However, I may have overloaded it with adjectives in my enthusiasm. I'm open to help or suggestions to make it a better article for Wikipedia. That is more important to me than the need to change anything from the way I have done it. In other words, please HELP if you can make it better, or guide me in doing so. Thanks. user: vaoverland

  • Support.Close, but I think it has too many duplicate links, IE Henry H. Rogers is linked 19 times (even after I removed a few while correcting spelling errors[3] [it's not as different as it looks--apparently removing blank lines sometimes confuses Wikipedia's diff feature]), and up to 3 times in a single paragraph. Seems like once per section, at most, would be better. Niteowlneils 22:57, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC) Niteowlneils 15:25, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Since they are not being voted on, this is NOT an "oppose" issue, but ideally some of the articles it links to, and the way they are linked could be tidier. I cleaned up Virginian Railway a bit, but, for example, Chesapeake and Ohio Railway has a 'missing image' message, and many links are to redirect pages (eg City, ST, instead of City, State), and at least some are to disambiguation pages (EG New River). I'll try to work on some of these issues myself, but given my short attention span, I'm not likely to do them all. I've looked at them all and tweaked the ones I had issues with, except I didn't look at any city/county/state page as they are very rarely problematic. I noticed you've worked more on some, as well. Niteowlneils 04:10, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
That said, I think Wikipedia is MUCH better served by people like you that contribute a smaller number of very high quality articles, rather than the recent trend towards contributing dozens, or even hundreds, of 6-10 word articles. Niteowlneils 23:36, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have gone back through the article and removed many of the duplicate links, especially those to Henry H. Rogers. I have added a little more information, as my research on Col. Page is ongoing, aided by members of the Virginian Railway Enthusiasts Yahoo group. At the same time, I have been trying to make improvements to some of the linked items, such as Jamestown Exposition, Sewell's Point, Battle of Hampton Roads, and the other railroads. I am not familar with some of the wiki editing tools, so I go through the articles word by word. A downside of that approach is that sometimes you can lose the big picture while working with individual details. Also, I have searched far and wide for a photo of Page, without success to date. Thanks for all the help, suggestions, and encouragement in making this and the other articles more accurate and easier to read and work with. User:Vaoverland.

He seems to have been married[4](didn't look close enuf), and may have written a book, which I'm still trying to track down.(guess not, an unfortunately common name) BTW, you can sign your entries on Talk and 'backend' pages by typing ~~~ and add a time stamp using ~~~~ instead. Niteowlneils 04:10, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I also haven't been able to determine any information about William Page's marital status or whether he had any children. I have also found information about an author of the same name, but with different dates of birth/death. Thanks for tweaking the photos; they look much better. I have been working this evening on cleaning up the articles on Hampton Roads and the Battle of Hampton Roads, and eliminating duplicative information. I have also fixed the misisng logo on C&O and added a table to the Virginian Railway article. I am also working on major overhauls of the Virginian Railway and Henry H. Rogers articles. Vaoverland 05:33, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have revised the article to address some additional questions/concerns shared on the Talk page for the article. I have also gone back through it to add some additional personal information and a physical description of Col. Page, even though I still cannot locate a photo of him. I also have removed some dates about his early work with the C&O, which, although documented from a govt. source, just do not make logical sense to me. I would rather sidestep the issue than present what may turn out to be incorrect information. Vaoverland 11:54, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This[5] seems to indicate he had a female relative named Mary, but its not clear if it's sister, wife, or daughter. Seems like worth contacting to see if they can clarify, and if any pics/paintings of him are included in the documents. Also, if you search amazon.com for his full name in quotes, you get two books--might be worth trying to find them in a library, and/or contacting the authors to see if they can help with either issue. Great job merging the battle info into the battle article, BTW. Niteowlneils 15:50, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Great find on the additional description information of the WNP papers at UNC Chapel Hill! I have found other indications that Page had "relatives" in Staunton, VA (Augusta County). And thanks for the comments about the work on the Battle of Hampton Roads, a topic for which web searches turn up far more information! I have noticed a discrepancy about the length of the March 9 battle, 4 hours in one version of events, and over 9 hours in another. The longer period is more logically correct, but like the dates Page started work on the C&O, to be safe I have side-stepped the issue for now. BTW, for the dates I originally used to be correct, he would have been through with UVA and gone to work on the C&O at rather young age of 17 or so. It is possible that the birthdate used in wrong instead, as he was supposedly only 10 years younger than Rogers who born in 1841 (according to H. Reid). I will post this new information about Col. Page to VGN yahoo group and see if that helps anyone there with more info. Vaoverland 16:19, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Apparently, the collection of WNP papers donated to Duke University in 1952 found their way to UNC Chapel Hill. The description and even the item number matches, although the reference to the collection at Duke provides a little but more information, including the donor's name. Vaoverland 17:03, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • Support. Mark1 00:42, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There have been some improvements made during the past week, including more personal information, and I located and added a photo of the ship William N. Page. I have also run an additional spell check using the ieSpell program which was recommended by other Wikipedia users, and it caught several errors that my WP program had missed. Members of the VGN Yahoo group have been trying to help located a photo of Page. Thanks to all for the improvements to article as well as the help on the research to round things out. Vaoverland 01:56, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I would highly recommend the ieSpell program. It is especially helpful with my Adult ADD disability (please see my talk page if you want to know more). I have been in email contact with folks from Lynchburg and Rustburg (Campbell County, VA) who had more information about Col. Page's family. The additional information won't fit into the article, which I am trying to edit to reduce the size, but it turns out that I have actually been in the house Page grew up in and know the current family occuppying it. Page's brother is believed to have been a US Ambassador, possibly to France or Italy, and I have names of other relatives as well. This Wikipedia projects has proved rewarding to me in a number of ways I couldn't envision when I started working on it. Some additional information uncovered ion this process will be used in other articles I am also working on. Thanks to all who have contributed to this work-in-progress. Vaoverland 07:27, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A little more. More e-mail from the lady in Rustburg, who inquired while she was at church today. It turns out that the Page in the Rustburg house may have been a different one. We cannot even confirm that Rustburg was the place in Campbell County where this particular Page grew up, so I have edited the article to remove one statement of questionable veracity (to wit: "grew up in Rustburg"). It really isn't important to the story, anyway, BTW, Thomas Nelson Page, a US ambassador to Italy, and most likely a relative at some level, but exact information has not been confirmed. I have tried to edit down some of the article, as it is a bit larger than desired for a WP article. Vaoverland 18:24, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I want to say that I appreciate all the support, criticism, and new information which has resulted from this article being a featured article candidate. I realize that the subject was not a famous person, and that neither he, or the railroads he helped build may be interesting enough to have broad appeal in this setting. Nevertheless, I'm very pleased with the results and the fine-tuning efforts a number of users have put into it. One Wikipedian (?) went down to the local library and actually dug up some new leads, which in turn, have opened other doors in my Yahoo rail group with over 400 members (including some published authors) to even more sources of information. The folks in my group are just now becoming aware of the wonders of Wikipedia. Bottom line: for the article and me as its' primary contributor, the fac process has been great, win or not! Thanks, folks. Vaoverland 14:37, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • Support. A very fine article on something I knew absolutely nothing about. Filiocht 14:54, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

Through the Yahoo group, we have located a photo of Page, but it looks unlikely that we will be able to get the needed permission to use it. We are still working on it, though. Vaoverland 18:03, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I published two articles in West Virginia History that document W.N. Page's life and work. They are: Athey, Louis L. "William Nelson Page: Traditionalist Entrepreneur of the Virginias." West Virginia History 55 & 56 (1984-85 & 1985-86): 41-49; 1-24. Published in those articles are poems and geological activities of Page in addition to family photos and an assessment of his family, life and work in Virginia and West Virginia before he departed WV to Washington, D.C. as a representative of the coal industry. loua90@hotmail.com

[edit] Questions/comments

Some issues:

  1. Page is considered one of the more energetic and successful men Considered by whom? We need a quote, or at least attribution.
  2. posing as fishermen (on a Sunday in February!) For those of us ignorant of fishing practices in Virginia, why is this surprising? Is it relevant?
  3. When they later learned of the encirclement at Norfolk by Col. Page and the Tidewater Railway, the N&W management must have felt much the same as General George McClellan had after Confederate J.E.B. Stuart's daring and famous cavalry ride completely around the Union's large siege force during the nearby Peninsular Campaign during the US Civil War just over 40 years earlier: The move was so bold that neither saw it coming. I removed this, as it gives us no information about Page or the railway; if we need an illustration of Page's boldness, can we find a quote from someone?
  4. It is believed that one of the factors in selecting the location was that the brand new Virginian Railway transported the high quality smokeless West Virginia Again, believed by whom?
  5. NS today uses it to help compete efficiently in the intermodal transportation markets of the 21st century What is an intermodal transportation market? Does this sentence mean anything other than that the railway company runs trains on the railway? ;)
  6. the Virginian Railway, has turned out to be a fitting and lasting tribute "Fitting" is POV- we need a quote for this.

Mark1 07:16, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have attempted to address each of the items listed. Please review and advise if they still would benefit from more changes. Thanks. [user: vaoverland]08:33, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! Mark1 00:38, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nit: "To enable the building of the new railroad to this location, the City of Norfolk donated a right-of-way extending virtually completely around the city through Norfolk County to reach Sewell's Point." makes it sound like the city donated county lands. Any way to make this clearer? Niteowlneils 16:09, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I will rework this. Vaoverland 18:29, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Looks good. I finally broke down and went to the library to try to confirm the wife. Found an entry for him in Who Was Who in America, which confirmed he married that Gilham gal. Put a few other things from the entry in a variety of places[6]. Oh, I do have the names of their children, if anybody thinks they're relevent. FWIW, Who Was Who says page 'Built and operated Victoria Blast Furnace. Goshen, VA 1885-1889, and doesn't mention the powellton bridge. Maybe he did both? Niteowlneils 01:33, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for all the "new" info. coincidentally, I worked as a contractor with Sheltering Arms and MCV Hospitals here in Richmond for about 15 years! It is a wonderful organization. I have modified the perosnal info in our atricle to reflect a little more, as well as pass the new info on the the VGN Yahoo group. I'll bte he did the Powellton Bridge thing as well. Whew! Col. Page must have had even more drive than the Energizer Bunny! Thanks. Vaoverland 04:39, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Powellton was only a short distance from Ansted, and appears to have also been in Fayette County, WV. I found a photo of the coal town of Jodie, WV, also in Fayette County, was operated by Gauley Mountain Coal Company, which we know from other sources was founded and headed by WNP. All of this is a good little distance from Goshen, but by the 1880's, from what I have read, the fortunes of the iron outfits and Goshen were already dimming. 05:16, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A websearch on WNP's wife's name turned up some more family information which is not needed in this Wikipedia article, but I will share with the authors in the VGN Yahoo group and keep for my other research. William Nelson Page's Heritage: Parents: Edwin Randolph Page, Olivia Alexander Siblings: Mary Mann Page, Edmonia Randolph Page, Spouse: Emma Gilham married 1882, Children: Delia Hayden Page, Edwin Randolph Page, Josephine Page, Evan Powell Page. Vaoverland 19:55, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Note posted 12/16/2004, I published two articles in West Virginia History that document W.N. Page's life and work. They are: Athey, Louis L. "William Nelson Page: Traditionalist Entrepreneur of the Virginias." West Virginia History 55 & 56 (1984-85 & 1985-86): 41-49; 1-24. Published in those articles are poems and geological activities of Page in addition to family photos and an assessment of his family, life and work in Virginia and West Virginia before he departed WV to Washington, D.C. as a representative of the coal industry. loua90@hotmail.com --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:48, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sheltering Arms

When we learned of Page's involvement in helping found Sheltering Arms Hospital, I thought we were referring to the one in Richmond, Virginia. I have since learned of another at Paint Creek, West Virginia, which would have been much closer to him in the 1889 time period identified. I am seeking more information, and have changed the article to be deliberately vague about this until we can ascertain more facts.

[edit] Emma Hayden Gilham

I found an article about the future Mrs. William Page in an old Richmond newspaper story about the Richmond Germans, which was sort of a débutante affair of society folks (and had nothing to do with the country of Germany). I have also found reference to a J. Hayden Gilham who it seems to me (based upon the dates) may have been Emma's brother. He is buried at Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond. His parents are listed as William and C.A. Gilham. there was a William Gilham from VMI who wrote a Confederate drill manual. I wonder if he was her Emma's father? Vaoverland 15:21, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

Subsequent research confirms her father was Major William Gilham of VMI and Civil War note, and 1860 Federal census records from Rockbridge County Va indicate the brother was named Julius Hayden Gilham. Both Emma and William Page were also buried at Hollywood Cemetery although I haven't been able to obtain a date of death for her.

[edit] FARC

While on the hunt for FARC, I decided this has a good chance for improvement: 1) add a pic of the William N. Page 2) split 'Accomplishments and heritage' section from his biography. If this comments are adressed, this article cannot be FARCed. Otherwise, it likely will. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:48, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We have searched high and low for a photograph of Mr. Page without sucesss, so far, and the effort continues. I will attempt to address item 2. Vaoverland 05:13, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Continued updates

Despite the continuing lack of a photo, information has been periodically added to this article, as well as that of his wife and several other related articles. Vaoverland 05:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:S VGN System Map Dec 1954 large.png

Image:S VGN System Map Dec 1954 large.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Virginian Herald.png

Image:Virginian Herald.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 02:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)