Talk:William I, German Emperor

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]

Contents 1 Naming 2 Infobox Germanykstyles 3 Titling 4 Rename 4.1 Result 5 Full title 6 Use of "ect." 7 Proposed Move 8 Requested move 8.1 Survey 8.2 Discussion 9 Apology

[edit] Naming

If he was born in the House of Hohenzollern then wouldn't that be his actual surname and shouldn't that be included in his full name? i.e., William Frederick Louis Hohenzollern. Please clarify. Thanks.

Yes he was born a member of the House of Hohenzollern. No he didn't use Hohenzollern as a surname. Let's not make things up about William. Noel S McFerran 21:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Even if he did not used it as a surname though, wasn't it still legally his name? Or was that name officially dropped somewhere along in the order of succession?

Is he in English really called Wilhelm I of Germany? He was king of Prussia! In German he is called Wilhelm I, König von Preußen (Prussia) 82.82.117.83 23:30, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)

• He was König von Preußen _and_ Deutscher Kaiser. Weialawaga 20:27, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

He is my great, great grandfather. He had an affair with a non-royal and through her had a son. She had to flee the country for her safety. She died five years after giving birth. Their son returned to Germany, but left because of the war... (Drea 14:12, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've mostly heard him called Wilheim I not William I. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.215.67 (talk) 17:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox Germanykstyles

I would like to hear some opinions on the recent addition of {{Infobox Germanykstyles}} and {{Infobox prussiakstyles}}. They seem to take up an awful lot of screen real estate for communicating little useful information. Should there be a need for them, they might be better arranged in landscape rather than portrait orientation. Rl 09:42, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

It has been condensed into Imperial and Royal styles now. Charles 05:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Titling

Yes, in english he is usually reffered to as William I of Germany, not wilhelm. Not even his grandson is called wilhelm in textbooks. The page title should reflect this. -Alex, 12.220.157.93 00:25, 28 January 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Rename

• I support moving this to William I, German Emperor. Shilkanni 05:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Weak-ish support If brought up for move, I support the format William I, German Emperor, but would optimally prefer to have "unique" cases of titling discussed as additions to the naming conventions. Charles 05:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Weak-ish support, in that I support the move away from the wrong "of Germany" to a correct ", German Emperor", (which I had done) but I prefer the unique German Wilhelm I over the ambiguous English William I. Only 3 letters are different here, while for example the Category:Polish_monarchs lists monarchs with Ł and Ś in their names, which is hardly English. --Matthead 10:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Support. I think he (unlike his grandson) is better known as "William" than "Wilhelm". And I much prefer use of "German Emperor" to "of Germany," which is ambiguous and awkward, and possibly simply incorrect. john k 11:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Support and agree with John. Olessi 13:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Weak support, "of Germany" is an artificial WP convention, and does not claim to be usage. However, changing it, in these three cases, may be useful as disambiguation. Support name; who uses Wilhelm I? Septentrionalis 17:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose Pointless move. The of Germany is there for disambiguation, as in hundreds of other articles. It isn't a statement of title. Otherwise Queen Elizabeth would have to be at Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Albert II of Belgium would have to be at Albert II of the Belgians. The French president would have to be universally have to be described as President of the Republic, etc. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 20:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

  Presidents of the French Republic do not have that office affixed to the end of their name and few royal/imperial titles take the form of Adjective title. The difference here is a very important one... Germany wasn't really a unitary state and there was explicit discussion and opinions regarding German Emperor vs Emperor of Germany. Belgium isn't a collection of various little statelets as Germany was at the time and, well, the United Kingdom is as official as Canada is for the Dominion of Canada, but no one is going to, in that instance, rename everything regarding Canada with reference to the Dominion of Canada. Belgium and the United Kingdom exist, but Germany didn't exactly exist from 1871 to 1918 as a country. Charles 20:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, I don't understand the mentality of "if we do this, that means we have to do other things." Especially when it applies to comparing monarchies to republics. I think the big issue is to distinguish the title of "German Emperor" from the distinct title of "German King" held by the Holy Roman Emperors. Given that moving the three German Emperors to the format "Name Ordinal, German Emperor" would allow us to remove the awkward "(Hohenzollern)" disambiguator from our article on the 2nd German Emperor, I think it's worth whatever vague bad precedents it might set (vague precedents already being set by our articles on the Holy Roman Emperors, in any event). john k 00:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• Support Noel S McFerran 02:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Result

The opinions above reflect a rough consensus in favor of William I, German Emperor. More importantly, move requests at Frederick III and William III ended. Consistency directs this. Let's regard this renaming round to be over. ObRoy 17:57, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Full title

Today Charles removed William's full title on the grounds that this was "not his, this style was adopted in the time of William II". That is patently incorrect, since ALL the titles other than German Emperor had been used for years by William's predecessors. Noel S McFerran 01:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

This site gives the history of the styles used by the Hohenzollerns. It gives the following as the titles for all Prussian monarchs after 1866.

Grand form: German Emperor; King of Prussia; Margrave of Brandenburg; Burgrave of Nuremberg; Count of Hohenzollern; Sovereign and Supreme Duke of Silesia and of the County of Glatz; Grand Duke of the Lower Rhine and of Posen; Duke of Saxony, Westphalia, Angaria, Pomerania, Lüneburg, Holstein, Schleswig, Magdeburg, Bremen, Gelderland, Cleves, Jülich, Berg, the Wends, the Kashubs, Krosno, Lauenburg, and Mecklenburg; Landgrave of Hesse and Thuringia; Margrave of Upper and Lower Lusatia; Prince of Orange; Prince of Rügen, East Frisia, Paderborn, Pyrmont, Halberstadt, Münster, Minden, Osnabrück, Hildesheim, Verden, Kammin, Fulda, Nassua, Mörs; Princely Count of Henneberg; Count of the Mark and Ravensberg, Hohenstein, Tecklenburg, Lingen, Mansfeld, Sigmaringen, and Veringen; Lord of Frankfurt.

Middle form: German Emperor; King of Prussia; Margrave of Brandenburg; Sovereign and Supreme Duke of Silesia; Grand Duke of the Lower Rhine and Posen; Duke of Saxony, Westphalia, Pomerania, Lüneburg, Bremen, Holstein, Schleswig, and Lauenburg; Burgrave of Nuremberg; Landgrave of Hesse; Prince of East Frisia, Osnabrück, Hildesheim, Fulda, and Nassau; Count of Hohenzollern; Lord of Frankfurt.

According to this site, the following titles were newly added (apparently in 1873, but I would guess actually over the course of a period beginning in 1849 and continuing through 1873): Duke of Lüneburg, Holstein, Schleswig, Bremen, and Lauenburg; Landgrave of Hesse; Prince of East Frisia, Pyrmont, Osnabrück, Hildesheim, Verden, Fulda, and Nassau; Count of Mansfeld, Sigmaringen, and Veringen; Lord of Frankfurt.)

Of the new titles, Sigmaringen and Veringen would have been attained with the annexation of the Principalities of Hohenzollern in 1849. Holstein, Schleswig, and Lauenburg had been conquered from Denmark in 1864, and annexed in 1866 (or, possibly, a bit later in the case of Lauenburg). Lüneburg, Bremen, East Frisia, Osnabrück, Hildesheim, and Verden came from the annexation of the Kingdom of Hanover; Hesse and Fulda from that of the Electorate of Hesse; Nassau from that of the Duchy of Nassau; and Frankfurt from that of the free city of Frankfurt. I'm uncertain where Pyrmont and Mansfeld derived from. john k 04:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

It is possible that I mixed it up. I remember participating in a discussion about the grand style of William II and am quite sure that changes were made. If I was incorrect, let's work on getting it right. Charles 15:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello. Link number 1 links to his untalented retard grandson who screwed up The German Empire. - Jimmy da Frogg

[edit] Use of "ect."

You do not use "ect." in any formal essay, especially reference material. this is common sense, and I will be making the necessary adjustments. whoever put "ect." in "full royal title" is a moron —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.249.9 (talk) 03:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Quite apart from the fact that it's spelled "e-t-c"! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.74.234.178 (talk) 14:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Move

I propose that this article be moved to Wilhelm I, German Emperor. Wilhelm is much more common than William. Also, Franz Joseph is at Franz Joseph and not Francis Joseph and Ivan IV of Russia is not at John IV of Russia. He's one of those cases where the native name is more common in English. Emperor001 (talk) 21:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Thoroughly oppose. Francis Joseph should be at that name and Ivan vs John isn't comparable. Charles 22:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Why isn't Ivan vs. John comparable? John is the English variation of Ivan and the two Wilhelms are more frequently called Wilhelm, not William. Far more sources say Wilhelm. Emperor001 (talk) 00:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Ivan itself can be seen as an English name. The same is true of Maria/Marie/Mary. Charles 00:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

So, Anything can be an English name. There are probably people in Enlgish speaking countries named Wilhelm. Emperor001 (talk) 20:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Wilhelm isn't established as an English name though. The reason for Maria/Marie is the heavy influence of Latin and French (the latter being a court and diplomatic language for many, many years). Charles 20:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

What about Ivan? Was there ever a "heavy influence" of Russian?Space Cadet (talk) 21:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Maybe after Doctor Zhivago? Space Cadet (talk) 21:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, it seems to be carried over from French via Yvan, etc. Charles 23:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Support weakly. I believe that he is best known in English as William I, simply because during his life English usage was to translate foreign names. However, via back formation from the name of his grandson, Wilhelm II, I believe that most English users are likely to search for -- or at least find -- him under Wilhelm I. Therefore I support this as an exception, that does not constitute a precedent, outside of his dynasty. Also, please review & consider previous discussions on this topic, especially this one. FactStraight (talk) 04:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

William I, German Emperor → Wilhelm I, German Emperor — From all of the sources I've seen, he is more frequently referred to as Wilhelm (even in books where monarchs' names are frequently anglicanized). These sources include the World Book Encyclopedia, my World History Book from High School, and multiple other history books and school textbooks. He seems to be one of those exceptions. —Emperor001 (talk) 23:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose He is at his English name. Charles 00:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose I haven't seen any evidence that Wilhelm I is common in English-language publications (as opposed to his grandson). Noel S McFerran (talk) 01:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support Of course, I support it (see above). Emperor001 (talk) 01:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose Not common. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments: Emperor001 (talk) 23:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The tendency to use Wilhelm seems to be a recent trend, especially amongst Americans. It will be interesting if this article remains at William but his grandson is moved to Wilhelm and great-grandson remains at William. — AjaxSmack 02:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Apology

I would like to apologize for some canvassing I have recently done. I didn't know it was frowned upon. I was only trying to help Wikipedia which I thought would include enlisting others into discussions and polls. Emperor001 (talk) 00:12, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no need to apologize about it, it's just that some people may use it as ammunition to have your RM thrown out. It was just a note and nothing you need to worry about me reporting since it was an honest mistake. Charles 00:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for being understanding. Emperor001 (talk) 00:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)