Talk:William Bennett

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Contents

[edit] Old comments

Removed this part for reasons of comparative irrelevancy:

Bennett has delivered numerous speeches at various colleges and universities in the United States, including Harvard University and Hillsdale College.
Most likely due to his background as an educational administrator and for conservative views, he served on the search committee that selected Dr. Larry P. Arnn as President of Hillsdale College.

Populus 14:10, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)


How about putting something in that say Bennett is often asked to speak at colleges ? Smith03 14:14, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Fine with me. I just thought that making selecting a new president of Hillsdale Bennett's crowning achievement looked odd. Populus 14:28, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'm sorry.... but I deleted the statement according to which Bennett takes "somewhat RACIST views" on affirmative action ecc. Being a conservative doesn't at all entail being racist. Even being "against" quotas and Affirmative Action doesn't necessarily coincide with racist positions.

Not to polarize, muckrake, or troll, but I believe this is worthy of mention: This week (late September 2005) Bennett was on some talk show where the conversation turned to a supposed link between the increased number of abortions in the U.S. and the decreasing crime rate. Bennett said he found no reason to believe such a link existed. Unbelievably, though, he went on to say that he believed if every African American fetus in the country were aborted, the crime rate would plummet. (He qualified this by saying that actually committing such an act would be deplorable.) I heard the tape of Bennett making this statement played on the radio this morning, as well as a tape of an MSNBC commentator condemning it, so I'm pretty certain the exchange took place, but thusfar I've been unable to locate a transcription or any other mention of it on the web. I think this is big enough that it ought to be added to the article if it can be confirmed and sourced. 4.236.78.231 13:48, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

  • I've heard some discussion of this as well. From what I gather, a caller had said that a good pro-life argument would be that Social Security would be solvent if all those aborted had been born. Bennett said that was a bad argument because it allows naefarious arguments to be made. He then presented the hypothetical situation that he has been raked over the coals for. FWIW, he's adamantly pro-life so him making an argument that supports pro-choice is, IMO, prima facia not his opinion. BenWilson 21:30, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

To add to the comment above... all one needs is to look to the September 29, 2005 episode of The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. During the daily finale known as "Your Moment of Zen," Bill Bennett's suspect comments are clearly audible. Read more at Media Matters for America

Bennett has noted that he did not intend his comments to be racist, but it is suprising that a politician could be so clumsy in making a statement that can clearly be interpreted as racism or advocating (ar at the very least, agreeing with the central premise of) eugenics. The broader discussion of the correlation, if any, between crime and the rate of abortions in the U.S. remains controversial however, and probably deserves its own article on Wikipedia. (found it under Legalized abortion and crime effect, adding internal link to the William Bennett article in the relevant section)

RudolfRadna 18:04, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Yes, having heard the comment in context, the excerpt was a gross mischaracterisation of what he was saying. He properly caveated his statement, but those who have excerpted his comments have left out those caveats. So, to link Bennett to the view that more abortions = less crime would be incorrect. There's a scholar out there who has published this view and believes it, so linking to him is more prudent. IMO, it would be abjectly partisan of us to link Bennett so. BenWilson 21:34, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] default article for Bill Bennett

Can we make Bill Bennett the default article for a period of time? I came here after reading a news story, but found the Canadian politician instead. We could put it back after a while. It might give more visibility to this article so it can be cleaned up.

151.198.54.170 13:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up

I did a major clean up, but while I was working on it new edits were made by others. I tried to incorporate the new stuff best I could. Also, although I left it in, I'm not sure whether the controversy over the abortion discussion is about linking abortion to crime or about Bennett's apparent opinion that crime is caused by black people. Perhaps we should leave the stuff at the end out? Dyfsunctional 19:06, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I just went back to the page an hour or so later, and the "Controversial Comments" section has become POV, sloppy, and decidedly un-encyclopedic. (I don't ever remember seeing datelines in Funk and Wagnalls.) Can we please agree to be concise and factual? And while we're at it, can we skip the "this just in" jazz? This is an encylopedia, not a news wire. Dyfsunctional 20:01, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kudos

I popped in expecting to see something far worse. I think, at least as it stands at the time of this post, it's fair and evenhanded. Let's all hope it stays that way!Big Daddy 10:16, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes. I've been watching this article and it's definitely gotten a lot better since yesterday. Thanks everyone. 141.155.152.158 12:03, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] His intentions

Does the last sentance about abortion and crime belong? His whole point was not racist per se, because he was talking about black people trapped as a underclass. His comment that it was morally reprehensible clarified that these comments were not offered to encourage people to have abortions to kill unwanted children for the purposes of law and order. I think that also twists his meaning. He has done a lot more than make this comment perhaps more detail is needed in other parts of the article. Dominick 14:10, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

The standard response to whether it is racist includes: why does the speaker use the black race for a "hypothetical" rumination. Why not use white, or latin, or asian. A contemporary response today would be: Why a public person would even touch upon a conversation about blacks after the video horror of New Orleans. And the insensitive comments made by Barbara Bush at the Astrodome were to any public person notice that sensitivity is the order of the day, OPPS, I'm sure I'm being very POV here....Kyle Andrew Brown 02:16, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Racist intent depends on the attitude of the speaker more than the specific words. In poor areas, I am reluctant to flash money, and many poor areas are associated with large Black populations. In Miami, there were poor areas where I didnt feel uncomfortable associated with Latin areas. The difference is how I relate and fit in. I think in both cases this is more a case of xenophobia, and misrepresentation of the economic conditions in those areas. Bennett like many, think of black areas as being economically disadvantaged, and having crime problems.
The destruction of New Orleans is not a black issue, per se. What we don't see is a even smaller French Cajun population that has some of the same problems as rural black people, who lost it all and worse don't have the attention of many people outside the South. Dominick 02:39, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Formatting

Perhaps we can get better balance by separating bio info, achievments, criticism and trivia, tailing the article with links. I moved things about a bit. Does this work? Dominick 18:48, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Mary Beth Guinan Could there be an additional link to "crime and gender?" *Violent Crime and Gender When a social scientist uses a paradigmatic case as a premise, it should be both factual and non-controversial, as is the case with gender. The correlation with race is extremely problematic statistically, and controversial.

[edit] Balance

Not to defend Bennett's remarks, but is it really fair to devote more than half the article to the abortion quote? How about just an accurate transcription of the quote, and a few lines about the reaction? I'm at a particular loss as to why we need the blog entry from the Freakonomics author—shouldn't this be an article about Bennett's life and place in history, and not about what tangentally-involved people think about something he said on the radio? I'm thinking we should at least delete that bit, but it's been there long enough that I have to wonder what the majority opinion is. Dyfsunctional 13:38, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, he has been around long before these comments, using a single blog source like this, and hanging his reputation on one quote makes for a unbalnced article. If we compare column inches of spathe Abortion item is was over dominant. It should be prominent, since it is a current affair, but in a few years will not be what he is best remembered for. (pardon me I added a header) Dominick 13:45, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, other than Dominick and I, there doesn't seem to be much of an opinion on this one way or the other. (I suspect that now that the media coverage has faded people have stopped visiting the page.) I think I'll give it another day or two, then streamline the section in question. Also, I'll remove the "current event" tag if that's OK. Dyfsunctional 18:30, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Absolutely agree that, by my measurement, 56% of this article being comprised of the "Controversy" section is complete overkill. It certainly makes for the appearance of a smear, regardless of factual content. While important to keep the context of the controvery available, a link to the entirety of the radio comments and the responses should suffice. --Detriment (T-M-C) 01:15, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree that spacewise, the controversy section seems to be unbalanced, but upon closer reflection, it seems that the whole transcript might be needed to ensure the full context is available. Johntex\talk 04:02, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
How about just the pertinent quote, and a link for the context? 162.83.178.23 11:26, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I did some major surgery, incorporated all of the suggestions above. Let's see if it sticks. Also, somebody keeps changing the mediamatters link to a white supremacist blog entry. The link is there to provide an accurate trancript, not to voice a pro- or anti-Bennett sentiment. If you have an issue with it please say something in the talk page so we can know what your intentions are. Dyfsunctional 13:25, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Looked good, but it is still light on details about... guess who! I will look closer later, when I don't have a design I am paid for looking at me! Dominick 14:07, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Did he resign from the Education Secretary post in 1988 or 1989? The article has both. 162.83.178.23 12:02, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Someone took changed the quote and added a statement that Bennett was unfairly quoted out of context. Although the link to Media Matters was still there, without the context there it reads diffent than with the context. I put back in the full conversation. Also, someone removed the response by William Morris refuting the argument that Freakonomics says that blacks = crime. Can someone put it back in?

I don't know about William Morris, but Steve Sailor refutes the argument that "black abortions cut crime" here: http://www.isteve.com/Freakonomics_Fiasco.htm

[edit] Undue Weight

Tonight was the first time I looked at this biographical article. I have to echo the out of balance observation that was first made in 2005. Undue weight is being given to the abortion misunderstanding and too little weight is being given to his success as a an author and rise in the radio ratings. Of course, editors typically are not explicit in their intent for adding text to an article, but I don't think it's leap of logic to infer that there was a gotcha for his hypothetical to a caller on September 28, 2005. Another clue: the Controversies section is about half the article text. Controversies is code, of course, for stuff editors don't like about the subject. patsw 01:38, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Continuing Debate

Once again, the pro- and anti-Bennett POV additions are creeping in, clogging up the article. I ask again: What's so wrong about simply sticking with the facts and stating that Bennett made a statement that some people have taken offense to? Dyfsunctional 00:38, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

  • jeez, i'm no buckley fan but it seems kind of absurd that the radio comment he made should take up more than half the article. i'd vote for lowering it down to a sentence or two.66.28.14.123 20:36, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[Note: I moved the next two paragraphs from a section above; I think this is a separate matter. John Broughton 21:58, 17 January 2006 (UTC)]

[Note: I moved this line of discussion back to the relevant heading because I'd like it to be clear that what we are adressing here is an ongoing issue, and by making a new section every time it crops up creates the appearance that it hasn't already been addressed. Detriment 03:03, 18 January 2006 (UTC)]

No surprise, the politi-creep continues. I just removed 2 alleged "controversies", one of which being distilled from an admittedly left-wing activist site (that site being footnoted as some kind of corroboration) and the other being a diatribe about a single request for investigation from a single California representative for educational budget spending practices, 10% of which may be linked to an organization associated with Bennett. Spurrious, shaded, and entirely insubstantial.

John Broughton, please regard this site as an encyclopedic reference work, and not your personal mudslinging forum. Please read the posts above regarding this practice. Detriment 19:19, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I re-inserted the text deleted by Detriment. I don't think that the reason cited (Removed 2 "controversies" whose inclusion was obvious political shading) is compelling - controversies about political figures almost always have "political shading".
Part of the deleted text included a cite to a (Democratic) Congressman calling for an investigation. If that is not the sign of a controversy, what is?
You use a lot of interesting words: diatribe, spurrious, shaded, insubstantial, mudslinging. At no time do you state that the cited facts are incorrect. You don't do any editing changes that would eliminate what you consider to be NPOV. In essence, you want the reader to be unaware of these two issues, because YOU have decided that they are not important. John Broughton 21:47, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry if the terminology I used offends, but your contributions are very clearly POV and should not be included in this, or any other reference material. Your "Undisclosed potential conflict of interest" entry is simply an unsupported opinion by someone who authors "The Carpetbagger Report" as to what Fox News should or should not be saying when introducing their guests. This is not in any way related to Bennett's role as a participant, and these kind of speculations should go, if anywhere, to opine about Fox News. I don't believe that any editor worth their salt would consider a blog entry from the "Americans United for a Separation of Church and State" as a valid news citation.
The section regarding the congressman from California writing a letter to the GAO abount spending practices, 90% having nothing to do with Bennett whatsoever, is entirely over-reaching and shows an obvious intent to re-inflate the Controversies section. Are we to assume that every time any member of government writes a letter, that any person mentioned in that letter is to be subjected to the assumption of inpropriety? The letter doesn't even suggest impropriety on Bennett's part - it's questioning the spending practices of the Department of Education. When the GAO revisits this issue, and any kind of sanctioning or punishment is suggested against William Bennett (remember him, the subject of this article?), then we can argue that it's a public controversy. As for now, it is simply one congressman's inquiry to one accountant in D.C. regarding spending practices.
I would suggest that you check your political baggage at the Wikidoor for now, and refrain from re-inserting these paragraphs, in any order, until some discussion can be made about their merit. Let's err on the side of credibility, shall we? Detriment 03:03, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of radio show name

I added a sentence to the Trivia section of the article stating that the name of the radio show is based on the line from the 1984 Reagan campaign. That Reagan used this line is well-known, and that it figured in his re-election campaign is documented at pbs.org. Given Reagan's association with the quote and Bennett's association with Reagan, I believe the statement I added to the page to be correct, but I can't find anything on Bennett's site stating that this is the origin of the show name. --DavidConrad 02:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Daily Show appearance

Somebody should write a bit about his recent appearance on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. 71.16.224.178 08:54, 13 June 2006

Why? What was particularly important/newsworthy? John Broughton 13:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Philosopher"

I edited Bennett's profile to change his description from "philosopher" to political pundit, as I found describing him as a philosopher somewhat presumptious. After all, we're talking about the author of "The Book of Virtues" not Hegel or Kant.AlexMondo 03:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Las Vegas Domina?

Hey everybody, I just added a brief subsection on a supposed relationship Bennett may or may not have had with a dominatrix in Las Vegas. This is kind of dicey material, and I want it to be fair to Bennett and to comply with Wikipedia's policy of fairness towards biographies of living individuals. These rumors are in large part unsubstantiated, but on the other hand they're very persistent (as my article makes plain) and thus I think a section addressing them is warranted. I invite your comments, criticisms, and revisions if necessary to ensure that this section complies. If you feel it doesn't belong there, please discuss your objections here before deleting it and let's keep it civil. Dkostic 01:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Pardon me for deleting it immediately upon seeing it and reviewing some of the sources. I believe the matieral violates WP:BLP and while I am happy to discuss it at length, I think material that violates WP:BLP should not be left in the article while it is debated but rather left out while is being discussed. Lawyer2b 17:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
WP:BLP states, "Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Information found in self-published books, newspapers, or websites/blogs should never be used, unless written by the subject (see below)." The sources you gave for the material were blogs or partisan websites, hence the material cannot be used. Lawyer2b-blp 17:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, you might be right on that. :/ Dkostic 20:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of "Dr."

That somebody has a PhD does not mean that we refer to them as "Dr. X" for the whole article. Certainly we don't ever put "Dr." into the first line. If genuinely respected academics don't get this (and they don't), why should Bill Bennett? This is a stylistic issue, and stylistically, we don't generally use honorifics ("Dr.", "Mr.", whatever) on either first reference or in running text. john k 06:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of screenshot for illustration

I thought fair use of screenshots was limited to articles dealing with the television program or movie itself and could not be used on other pages to illustrate subjects (e.g. actors or guests). If I am correct, then the image with this article must be replaced. →Wordbuilder 20:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

If there is no objection, I will remove it. →Wordbuilder 17:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)