Talk:William Barrington-Coupe

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[edit] Original name?

There has been a suggestion on Usenet by Robert Bahr of BIS records that his original name was "Barrington Cooper" not Barrington-Coupe". Anyone else know about this? Grover cleveland 23:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Explanation of "Havagesse"

If we want to keep this information in the article, then it must be expressed in an encyclopaedic manner. Also, please be sure it is referenced -- I don't have the Private Eye ref in front of me so I can't check for myself. How is this information expressed in the reference?. Thanks Grover cleveland 15:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

A suggestion: if the reference itself includes the phrase "Have a guess!", then we should use a direct quote from the reference to resolve the issue. Thx. Grover cleveland 16:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything in any Wikipedia guideline precluding the use of the phrase 'Have a guess'. All the same, I've now appended a reference which "itself includes the phrase 'Have a guess!'" -- Jmc 20:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

As an aside: I own a copy of this same recording (with different sleeve art though) where the spelling is 'Wilhelm Havagest' ("have a guest"). By the way: the recording of this Sheherazade was licensed from the "Music Treasures of the World" recorded library, a mail order label from the fifties. Max Schoenherr conducts the Austrian radio Symphony of Vienna.91.1.229.190 07:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC) E. Lumpe

[edit] Reference to being "reunited" with Hatto unexplained

When did Hatto and Barrington-Coupe marry? If this is unknown, the sentence describing their reunion should be edited to point out that they were together before Barrington-Coupe was thrown in the pokey for tax evasion. The only prior reference to Hatto is in the introductory paragraph where she is identified as his wife (with no other details given about the length of that relationship).

[edit] Concerns of E. Lumpe

(Moved from talk page of User_talk:Yellowdesk)

Hi Mr "Yellowdesk", I had contributed the few corrections to the Barrington-Coupe article yesterday, not being aware that these would be erased immediately even though they corrected blatant errors and obvious missinformation. Nobody would really try to defend what B-C did with re to the Hatto Hoax,but there is no reason either to draw a wrong picture of this somewhat shady person who nonetheless had also quite some merits. To tell the simple truth seems to be the best and surely would fit into Wikipedia's rules. I would finally stress again that some of the info which is based on what is reported in those links is absolutely wrong and missleading. Reading Charles Haynes' little book attentively would have given enough reason to doubt some of the things which appear as kind of "facts" in this article here. yours, E. Lumpe - Soest/Germany (elumpe@freenet.de ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.1.197.198 (talk) 10:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
In short: apparently someone can't read here. Why is my contribution qualified as 'unsigned' when my name and email appear at the end?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.1.245.105 (talk) 10:58, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
E. Lumpe:
Your comments are misplaced. The person who made the edits you complain about was not me, as this history of the article shows.
Your concerns about William Barrington-Coupe should be placed at Talk:William Barrington-Coupe.
As for signing, if you put four tildes after your comments, the wiki system shows the time and account name of the person making the edits.
-- Yellowdesk 14:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for helping me to get along with the Wiki rules, I am only a beginner here!
I would wish that some inconsistencies and rough mistakes would be corrected in the B-C piece. E. g. the info that Marcel Rodd was the founder of Saga. It was instead the business of pianist Leonard Cassini ( a Hoffmann pupil) in the first place, then Barrington and Major W. A. Banks joined in, and at some time Cassini left. Only after the original Saga label went into liquidation Marcel Rodd bought the remainders. He was not the founder, let alone a co-founder with Barrington. The source giving this information is just wrong, at least ill-informed. There are more such things in the piece but enough for the moment.91.1.249.63 07:59, 13 November 2007 (UTC) E. Lumpe
Thanks for raising these issues of inconsistencies and mistakes in the article, Herr Lumpe. Corrections and additions need to be sourced. Can you tell us the source of your information about the establishment of the Saga label? -- Jmc 08:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I can. Besides owning original correspondence from the Saga label (addressed to pianist Sergio Fiorentino in 1958) where W.H. Banks, Barrington-Coupe and Leonard Cassini figure as members of the board on top of the letters. And I can point to the various contributions re Saga after the Hatto hoax broke, among these an article published by MusicWeb and a statement by Major W. H. Banks' son Garth. However I did not keep the links. But a superbly kept and updated page on the Hatto hoax and all affiliate questions can be found by googling for "Hatto Andrys". I also think it is rather a joke than decent information to present the Private Eye story about a piece of tape being put backwards into a recording of a Tchaikovsky Symphony. As a long-standing collector of dubious recordings and researcher on pseudonyms I can only tell that all these years I failed to find such a 'doctored' recording of Barrington. It is satire, not information what PE reports. 91.1.238.189 11:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC) E. Lumpe

Well, Playback, The Bulletin of the National Sound Archive (see References in the article) has Rodd as the founder of Saga, and that seems a pretty reliable source. As for Private Eye, while it does have satirical content, its 'Music and Musicians' column deals in fact. The fact is that the W B-C saga really needs no gloss to appear satirical.
I think we really need more substantial sources than the ones you quote, Herr Lumpe, to establish that Rodd was not the founder of Saga.
-- Jmc 06:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I must say I am amazed! There is no better and more reliable source than the original label's correspondence, isn't it? And what concerns Playback, aren't you quite a bit too trustful? The trrue story is: Rodd ACQUIRED the remainders of original Saga in 1961 after the label had gone into liquidation (please read the appropriate chapter in Charles Haynes' book in case you have access to it.). Acquiring the remainders of a company does not at all mean to be the 'founder'. I would also doubt that Rood himself would have approved of this epithet. You should take in mind that many of those people who write about such things don't have the slightest idea about the real way things went so many years ago. This also shows to me a big problem of Wikipedia writings: the urge to mention 'sources' for everything is legitimate but merely naming sources which spread doubtful or plain wrong information does not contribute to Wikipedia's reputation as a high standard source itself. Nonetheeless I would agree that the whole Barrington business isn't perhaps worth that much trouble here. Perhaps you might be interested in knowing whith whom you have corresponded, so if you can spare a moment visit the following link: http://www.geocities.com/elumpe/ . My research in this field as such is regarded as a source per se. And here's one last little hint you have overlooked while researching the content of your contribution: http://joemeekpage.googlepages.com/triumph_1_E.htm . I will now leave it at that and stop bickering about the piece of information you have put together. (Prof. Einstein: "e=mc2". Prof. Wiki: "Show me where that's referenced!" :-)))
best regards 91.1.248.235 09:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC) E. Lumpe
Ooops, forgot this link which you may have also overlooked:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Feb07/saga_remembered.htm
It's written by Robin O'Connor, a former employee of LATER Saga, e. g. the Rood business. If it hadn't been for an attentive witness of the real thing to write an addendum to O'Connor's story we would have been left again with one of those 'reliable' sources about the Saga label. As one can see, even someone who worked for LATER Saga did not know, or bother to recall, what the company's real history was about. Quite telling again re the nature of 'references' and 'sources' 91.1.248.235 09:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC) Regards, E. Lumpe
I suppose I could respond to Herr Lumpe's latest by indulging in a deep discussion about sources and reliability, but the Wikipedia section on sources really says it all.
So I'll content myself with responding to individual points:
 There is no better and more reliable source than the original label's
 correspondence, isn't it?
Source for what? For establishing the nature of Rodd's involvement with the inception of Saga? I really can't see that a Saga letterhead from 1958 naming Banks, Barrington-Coupe and Cassini reliably answers that question.

As I can see below this question and your constant doubts seem to have received a somewhat final answer from the son of Major Banks. Would think, however, this will NOT prompt you to finally change your misleading article. 91.1.229.4 (talk)E.Lumpe, March 4th, 2008

 Perhaps you might be interested in knowing whith whom you have
 corresponded
Anyone who's followed the Hatto/Barrington-Coupe affair would've known that, I'm sure. Ernst Lumpe (B-C: "my personal Internet publicist") is a leading character in Mark Singer's recent accounts of the affair in the New Yorker and the Telegraph (see refs in the Hatto article).

You mistook me in the first place. I wanted to point you to my work as a researcher. Yet following your line of understanding my words: Yes, I agree, my position in the "Hatto disaster" was an unhappy one, not at all my intention, in no way my wish, and it was absolutely not my business (alas, I can't name references for all these :-)). By the way (when talking abut correct quotes): It was Miss Hatto who so "kindly" called me her "personal internet publicist", not B-C. Besides then: who do you think supplied Mark Singer and the write of the Telegraph with all that information in hourlong telephone calls ans dozens of detailed emails? 91.1.229.4 (talk)E.Lumpe, March 4th, 2008

 Prof. Einstein: "e=mc2".
 Prof. Wiki: "Show me where that's referenced!" :-)
Irrelevant! See No original research: "Wikipedia is not a venue for publishing, publicizing or promoting original research in any way".

I did not know this. What a pity since this opens the door for stupidities of all kinds, provided they have been printed somewhere and can be referenced. Now I understand much better the rather low reputation of Wikipedia in spite of some very good things I have found.91.1.229.4 (talk)E. Lumpe, March 4th, 2008

 Ooops, forgot this link which you may have also overlooked:
No, I for one am well aware of Saga Remembered by Robin O'Connor, including Alan Bunting's response. But Bunting can't even get O'Connor's first name right - thrice misspelling it - so one has to wonder about his reliability as a source.

jmc, you aren't serious, are you? Are you an English teacher?

-- Jmc 20:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Concerns

Saga Films was not Barrington-Coupe it was originally Leonard Cassini's work. After financial problems SAGA was taken over by Major W A Banks. Records were released from the film soundtrack under the initial label SAGA Films, subsequently SAGA Records Limited. It was a classical Label. Barrington-Coupe's wife Joyce Hatto had recordings in the SAGA portfolio. Barrington-Coupe subsequently joined SAGA in about 1958 when the first 'Pop' singles were released under the SAGA label see RSM Brittain's 'Regimental Rock'/'Swinging Sporrans'. At that time he was involved in the promotion of the SAGATONE range of Hi-Fi equipment. Joe Meek was 'introduced' after his financial and other problems and Triumph records was formed from Major Banks's offices in Empire Yard Holloway road. It took over the 'Pop' side of SAGA. Barrington-Coupe was a 'figurehead'. After a serious financial problem involving Barrington-Coupe, SAGA was sold to Marcel Rodd who took over the music library and continued SAGA under his pressing and distribution company (which included DANDY records). Triumph had distribution problems because of the big labels dominance (HMV, EMI, TOP RANK, PYE etc). A decision was made to set up RGM records with their own studio at 304 Holloway Road. Joe Meek was then free to make his own recordings and have them released through the major Companies distribution network. Barrington-Coupe was involved for part of the time. The entire financial backing and support was from Major Banks. The Joe Meek connection was severed after financial disputes.

garth banks

Garth 18:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC) This was left by User:Garthbanks at Talk:William Barrington-Coupe/Comment and moved here. Master of Puppets Call me MoP!☺ 21:14, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Ha, finally someone who should know the facts has joined in and gives mr jmc some necessary background which he can't figure out himself. but I gather he will again doubt everything and point to the misinforming note in that record magazine naming Rodd as the founder of Saga. Funny that he stepped into another trap: who else except he would really consider David Hurwitz's funny "review" of the "autographed Hatto series" as fact instead of a splendid little joke? 91.1.233.38 (talk)e. lumpe, coulnd't resist after all mr jmc wrote. —Preceding comment was added at 09:59, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Herr Lumpe, if you check back through the history of this article, you will find that it was not I who added the reference to "David Hurwitz's funny 'review' of the 'autographed Hatto series'; on the contrary, as you can see below, I've been suspicious of it from the start and support its removal. So your remark about my stepping into a trap is altogether misguided and must cast doubt upon your own ability to represent the facts accurately.
I should also point out that it was I who was instrumental in having Garth Banks' above comments moved here from a backwater location in which he'd mistakeningly inserted them and in which they were being overlooked. (See the entry for 19:28, 1 March 2008 on my User contributions page.)
Furthermore, as you check back through the history of this article, you will see that it was I who amended the characterisation of WB-C to an "employee" of The Saga Films and Records Company, on the basis of Garth Banks' published comment on the Times article 'Piano ‘genius’ is branded a fake'.
Apologies would be welcome.
-- Jmc (talk) 19:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hatto Plays Hatto

"Also subsequent to the breaking of the scandal, Barrington-Coupe's label released a recording of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, with Hatto incredibly credited as both composer and performer; an included orchestral version is similarly misattributed (the original recording apparently having been made by BIS)."

Actually, I'm pretty certain that this was an April Fool's Joke by the website given as the source for this. I remember it appeared on the site on April 1 last year. It should probably be removed. MarkB79 (talk) 02:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're surely right, MarkB79. The Concert Artist website (amazingly still functioning) offers her (?) recording of the Pictures (Mussorgsky's ones) on CACD 91292 (c/w Rachmaninov Piano Sonata No.1) and, most tellingly, has the same cover art as in the referenced Hurwitz review, where it's been crudely altered to obliterate Mussorgsky's name as the composer and substitute Hatto's.
But Hurwitz's spoof review is fun - "The Great Gate of Kiev" renamed "The Barn Door at Manchester"!
Seems a pity to remove it, but WP is a serious encyclopedia, so I've given it the chop.
-- Jmc (talk) 03:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Cheers for that. The Concert Artist (or 'Con Artist' for short) website is certainly still there but dosen't seem to have been updated since the scandal broke as far as I can tell. You would have thought Barrington-Coupe would have taken it down by now although I heard he still sells Hatto CD's but with the disclaimer that it might not be (i.e. isn't) her on the recordings, not sure if that is actually true. Hurwitz's review certainly is good fun, I noticed the 'The Barn Door of Manchester', very witty! It is indeed a shame to take it off the page but we can't really report April Fool's jokes as fact sadly! With regard to the remarkable 'Autograph Edition' claim, that comes from the same source and I can't find any other reference to it aside from the one given (Hurwitz again) and this Wiki page. Not sure if this is any more factual that the Mussorgsky claims, it does seem extraordinary, but I'm not sure either way as there appears to be no other reference to it online. It does sound extremely dubious. MarkB79 (talk) 05:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
You've deepened my suspicions about the 'Autograph Edition', MarkB79. It too has very much the feel of a spoof about it, and of someone taking delight in making fun of poor old WB-C (the sample cover signature is really quite OTT). I wouldn't try to revert if you deleted the reference! - Jmc (talk) 09:24, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for not replying until now, haven't been back on Wiki for a few days. Re-reading the 'Autograph Edition' page I am 99% certain that it's another spoof. I initially thought that it wouldn't be a spoof because they'd be unlikely to do two April Fools jokes on the same subject on the same day but the claims on that page are just too ridiculous, unless Barrington-Coupe has an :::: extraordinary sense of humour. There is no way he is going to seriously try and convince the public that his wife personally signed thousands of CD's as she lay seriously ill (and some in crayon!). It could be a prank by WBC to make light of the whole Hatto fraud but given the fact that he appears to have largely gone into hiding and seems rather ashamed of the whole enterprise, I rather doubt it. As I say, I can't find any other reference to it online and surely there would be if it were real (WBC would be advertising it somewhere I imagine). I think it should probably be removed and will do so if you or anyone else has no objections. Still, it is another amusing dig at Barrington-Coupe and I look forward to seeing the next Hatto spoof that Hurwitz comes up with, April Fool is only a few weeks away after all. MarkB79 (talk) 02:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)