Talk:Will Kirby

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Contents

[edit] The weight of Will Kirby's opinion

Why is there so much deference being given to what Will Kirby wants or doesn't want? This is supposed to be a public encyclopedia entry. Presenting only what Will Kirby wants is just as NPOV as things that people who hate him would want to include. This article should be objective. The place for him to present only the information he wants presented should be his personal website, not Wikipedia.68.166.88.10 19:51, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] comments by AuntJulie

Auntjulie 02:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)AuntJulie

I made changes per Will Kirby's request. (SeekTheTruthFirst 17:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC) edit: was this post by AuntJulie? If so please verify and use the four tildes to sign your post as indicated in the talk page instructions)

SeekTheTruthFirst 17:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC) I removed references to Janelle Pierzina...first it's Will Kirby's biography and therefore irrelevant to indicate who evicted him. The eviction was as much due to Erika Landon as it was to Janelle.

- removed references to tributes because they have no significance.

- could add Will's charity work. It is part of his life and therefore, his biography.

AuntJulie 02:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC): I worked on Will's page on Friday per his request. I initially added his dermatology and skincare info per his request in addition to other changes. All of the changes were reverted because they were considered "highly promotional." Before the changes were reverted, I edited his pics, his residence, and I added his dermatology info. He reviewed it and requested that I remove mention of any HG other than Boogie, since Boogie is his business partner. He never got to see the final changes since the article was reverted back to the original before he saw them. I went back in and made all of his requested changes again and excluded the dermatology and skincare in keeping with the Wikipedia policies. He may or may not have liked the verbiage about the tributes as I did not ask him specifically about that. I just did what he asked in removing mention of any BB HG's other than Boogie.

I inadvertently added the mugshot of Janelle link by accident while dualing with another poster on changes. It was not intentional and I would have removed it if the other poster had not. I lost my temper going back and forth with the poster and I have sinced publicly apologized to Janelle.

[edit] Including mention of Janelle Pierzina or other house guests

BBhoneybunny 21:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC) I am not trying to cause a fight here. I just wanted to add that Janelle was the one who evicted Will. If you go back to the episode of Wills eviction, Janelle does say "I choose to evict you, Will" after Julie Chen asked Janelle to make her decision between Erika and Will.

I would also like to give you a quote

"On Day 65, Janelle used the final veto to save herself forcing Mike to put up Will. Then, Janelle, the only houseguest who could vote, evicted Will who had never been evicted before." This is from the Big Brother 7 Wikipedia site

   Big Brother 7 (US)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_7_%28US%29#Week_10

SeekTheTruthFirst 21:59, 20 May 2007 (UTC) I suggest that references to other house guests on Big Brother be excluded since the purpose of this article is to present a biography of Dr. Will Kirby. Janelle Pierzina, for example, as her own biographical page on Wikipedia and has no personal or business affliations with Dr. Kirby at this time. Mike Mallin, on the other hand, is a business partner of Dr. Kirby's and a long-time friend. Other than him, I see no reason to include Janelle or any other Big Brother house guest in anything regarding Dr. Kirby's biography.
As far as to specific references to certain events on Big Brother All Stars the inclusion of these are redundant. As you have just shown, they are already detailed in the Wikipedia article Big Brother 7:All-Stars that is referenced on Dr. Kirby's page. It is my understanding from reading the Wikipedia guidelines, overlapping information is to be avoided.
BBhoneybunny 22:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)Reference to Janelle Pierzina is under the BIG BROTHER section.

[edit] Inclusion of the "Showmance/Flirtmance/Romance/Fauxmance"

TRUTH TEST 05/21/07 - No malice or ill will towards Dr. Will Kirby or Janelle Pierzina is intended by the inclusion of these points. This information is not provided in an inflammatory or negative light to either party involved. Dr. Will Kirby’s current popularity is, in large part, due to his recent appearance in Big Brother All Stars, and more specifically, his interactions on this reality show with fellow contestant Janelle Pierzina. This can be evidenced by the following examples;

I would dispute that his popularity is "in large part, due to his ... interactions on this reality show with fellow contestant Janelle Pierzina." Dr. Kirby was well known in Reality TV long before Janelle was. He was a producer's choice and had more extensive contract negotiations with the shows' producers than anyone else including a better pay schedule, the stipulation that Mike Malin appear on BBAS, and TAR consideration. He has also appeared on several other Reality shows and is a member of Realty TV Hall of Fame (http://www.realitytvhalloffame.com/cgi-bin/ae.pl?mode=1&article=article1031.art&page=1). I've commented on some of your other points at the end of your post. ItsGottaBeRight 20:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Thousands of video clips of their interactions during Big Brother All Stars have been posted by fans at www.youtube.com. A simple search of “Will and Janelle” done on this site brings up a result 13,700 video clips ( http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Will+and+Janelle ).

2. Hundreds of video tributes to their showmance from Big Brother have been made by fans of both Dr. Will Kirby and Janelle Pierzina which can also be found on http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=will+and+janelle+tribute . Again, a simple search here results in 400 hits. This is a testament to the many fans of Dr. Will Kirby and Janelle Pierzina who have found their interactions engaging and created a phenomenon surrounding them.

3. A fan website created to chronicle this story ( www.willandjanelle.com ). Dr. Will Kirby has promoted this website himself, in several chats that he has had with his fans which is evidence of the validity of it’s content.

4. Thousand of posts discussing this phenomenon on several internet boards, some of which have been created with the sole purpose of discussing Dr. Will Kirby and Janelle Pierzina. http://willandjanelle.informe.com/ ; http://wandjnobash.informe.com/index.php ; http://forums.jokersupdates.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&ShowCat=1&Board=BBDiscussion ; just to name a few. It is a timely and relevant subject that is continued to be talked about in chat rooms and debated about with posts as recent as today.

5. Dr. Will Kirby’s Wikipedia page itself is a prime example; the controversy surrounding the inclusion of this information and the many arguments provided here illustrate the relevance of this topic as it is related to Dr. Will Kirby.

I understand one of the arguments to the inclusion of these points is that the wishes of the subject at hand may be to have any mention of other Big Brother contestants (more specifically Janelle Pierzina) removed from his Wikipedia page. I say “may” because I have not seen any evidence of this request other than what one over zealous fan (who admittedly used poor judgement and acted out in anger) has said that she was told. Dr. Will Kirby holds frequent chats with his fans (one as recent as yesterday, where this very subject was brought to his attention) and also maintains a public website ( www.willkirby.com ) and has not expressed this request in either forum. In the event that Dr. Will Kirby ever publicly requests this change to his Wikipedia page, I will still be hesitant to agree to it‘s removal. I hold Dr. Will Kirby in very high regard as an entertainer and a physician and while I understand that some of his fans, like many of us, may wish to rewrite history, or erase a certain event from the public eye, it is a very dangerous precedence to set and is not in the nature of what Wikipedia represents.

I don't dispute that the whatever-it-was-mance between Will and Janelle was widely discussed on many Big Brother Internet forums and you've done a good job of outlining it; what I question, however, is whether it's biographical and therefore worthy of inclusion in this article about Dr. Kirby. The case could be made that the "saga" deserves adding to the existing Wikipedia page devoted to Big Brother All-stars. One could even make a case it deserves its own page since the phenomenon involved thousands of participants and countless posts and tributes. It should be documented somewhere, but probably not here. I would be interested in what others think about this and hope they evaluate it based on the guidelines for biographies and not fan bias. The small bit you added today seems appropriate. Have you thought about documenting the W/J craze elsewhere on Wikipedia? Someone should do it.
The point you raised about Dr. Kirby's wishes regarding who or who should not appear in this article raises another, perhaps more important, point and that is I don't believe these articles should be autobiographical. IOW, as long as the information is factual, neutral in its POV, and referenced it should be added if its relevant to his biography (i.e., an account of his life). I for one, wish to remain neutral and care only about what is true and accurate whether it is good or bad. I don't believe the subjects or their ardent fans should control the content. I've made this point on Janelle Pierzina's talk page as well. ItsGottaBeRight 20:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Auntjulie 02:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC) - Will requested the changes through his webmaster Sandy Polley. I'm sure she will confirm that he requested removal of all other HG's with the exception of Boogie, his business partner. I only made the changes he requested with the exception of inadvertently posting Janelle's arrest record which was up for less than a minute and I would have removed it if Truth Test had not already done so. It seems the controversy seems to stem from acknowledging Janelle on Will's biography. He is not mentioned on hers so why do people insist on adding Janelle on his? Details of the game are on the Big Brother page itself which I personally think is an excellent compromise. Also why not make a Winelle page?
Interestingly enough, someone already had Janelle's arrest record on HER page on May 4th. Another poster removed it on May 20, 2007. I want it to be clear that I have NEVER edited her page and only edited Will's page during the weekend of May 18th, 2007.
There are countless message boards dedicated to their "flirtmance." This is a biography page about each individual and should remain as such. The mention of any tributes has been removed by another user, so there really should be no remaining controversy. Auntjulie 02:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for participating in the discussion and following the Wikipedia guidelines for resolving disputes, the only thing I would add is to reiterate my previous post: these articles are not autobiographical. I appreciate Kirby has taken interest in this article, but he should not be the sole determiner of content. I can see his input with respect to matters of fact and it would be good if he added things he felt were not adequately addressed, but to perserve Wikipedia's neutral POV the biographies should not be biased good or bad. I'm sure he and his fans realize that. I think the case for what other house guests including JP should be mentioned or not is given in the previous heading topic. I agree with your's and the other poster: Malin seems to be the only one that has an established business relationship and BB alliance with Kirby. They have also been friends for a number of years. ItsGottaBeRight 16:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you that Will's article is not autobiographical, however what he's asking for is not unwarranted. There were other things he wanted included but are not under the Wikipedia guidelines, so they are not included. So I hardly think he's getting his way. In keeping with the theory that one should be objective, the other HG's do not have any mention of flirtmances on their pages, so Will's page should not either. Auntjulie 18:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should references to his other BB aliases be made (aka Dr. Evil, Dr. Delicious, etc)?

Quite unlike any other BB USA player, Kirby has been referred to by the media, other contestants, and fans by several nicknames the most famous of which is Dr. Evil. In BBAS he was also referred to as Dr. Delicious. Should these aliases not be mentioned? And if not, then why not? I've seen well known nicknames mentioned or explained in other biographies. ItsGottaBeRight 17:08, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What about his work with Charities and his voluntary medical work?

Should Kirby's charitable work be included? He did go to Ecuador on a medical mission and he also regularly donates his time working at medical clinics. It would seem these should be mentioned. Does anyone know the details on these matters? ItsGottaBeRight 17:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Showmance"

You can't copyright a word. Paris Hilton tried to copyright "that's hot" and Trump tried to copyright "you're fired", and they got turned down flat. You can trademark a word - Pat Reilly trademarked "Threepeat" when used on clothing and other memorabilia, but he can't stop people from using the word, nor can Will Kirby stop people from using the word "showmance" (as can be proven by Big Brother 8's use of the word this season). Corvus cornix 17:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup of 25 October

Well, I came back to find the article once again full of what I would euphemistically describe as promotional stuff, which I feel serves to flatter the ego of Will Kirby. The businesses he is merely invested in merely advertised for him, again without bringing any encyclopaedic value: if he is the principal, then fine within limits, but to list every business he's invested in is pretty indiscriminate - imagine listing in Warren Buffet's biography every share he holds! There were of course weasel words, like "considered an authority on xyz", which I have now also removed. The TV.com link is an open wiki, which fails WP:RS.

I'm beginning to suspect that there may be some conflict of interest editing here: the Dr Tatoff logo, which I removed from the page, carried a rationale of "To show the logo of a company owned by Will Kirby to improve its brand recognition". Incidentally, it was also of a considerably higher resolution than any which I could find on the Dr Tat webpage. Has anyone perchance noticed the similarity between the Early life section and the biography on his personal website? I have for the moment refrained from deleting it per WP:COPY, in the hope that someone will re-write it.

All this, and I haven't even touched any of the big brother stuff! but don't worry, I'll leave that for another day ;-) Ohconfucius 06:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Someone has seen fit to remove the {{fansite}} tag I placed on the article without comment. I fail to see how much of the stuff in the sections involved is in any way encyclopaedic - it's just show trivia. I am replacing the tag. Ohconfucius 02:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)