Talk:Wilhelm Reich/archive1

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Contents

Qi

Quote "(an "energy field", similar to qi or other New Age energy concepts)"

Is Qi a 'new age' concept, I'm not an expert but isn't this to do with tai Chi which actually dates back hundreds if not thousands of year? Can soembody who knows about these things please clarify and if necessary amend accordingly, ta quercus robur 10:36 Mar 19, 2003 (UTC)

Qi is refered to within certain New Age disciplines, the above wording was not intended to outline the history of the Qi concept, and the new wording is just as nice anyway... -- Jörgen Nixdorf
Qi is not a "New Age" concept, though it may be coopted by that movement. Qi finds its origins in Daoism, which has utilized it as an axiomatic principle of theology and cosmology for about 2500 years (via the fangshi). Chinese medicine likewise engages qi as the primary component adjusted by therapies (such as acupuncture and moxabustion, which have measurable, reproducible benefits which are unexplainable solely through placebo). I would be interested to know of Reich's level of familiarity and engagement with Chinese thought. However as described here, orgone seems to bear little resemblance to qi beyond the most broad and superficial.

The orgone stuff is now merged into this article. More is needed about Reich's early career before he diverged from the mainstream. -- Anon.

Bias

The Wilhelm Reich page is badly biased.

It seems that the really important part of his work - published early, left to the enlightened Humanity and not controlled by the extremely conservative board in charge of the rest of his work, and even some early work that was re-written later on - simply isn't here and that is as close to tragedy as one can get in cases such as this one...

Mass Psychology of Fascism, his early work on Orgasm and so on, with the original terminology unchanged - that is the crucial contribution to Humanity, opening up the social psychology field...

Pros, get on it, please... ;) :)

I get really disgusted when I read scientists talk about Wilhelm Reich. I do not make my living by science, although I am familiar with the scientific method. And I do not have an opinion on orgone energy and all of that stuff one way or the other, I've read a little bit about it, but have not done the experiments, seen if it is reproducible, read the case against it and so forth. Being as I have not looked into it in great depth, I concede that it is possible that Reich made errors in his scientific work. Which is not devastating - Einstein punched major holes in Isaac Newton's work, and he is still viewed with respect - going down blind alleys is not where the glory is, but it does help science as people can say "we examined this and see little worth to it, so examine the other areas first". To reiterate, I know a lot about Reich's political side and little about his scientific side and how his scientific theories panned out when looked at by the wider scientific establishment, and I have no opinion one way or the other about these scientific theories since I know little about them.

Conceding that it is possible Reich made scientific errors - so what? What should the punishment be? This man was hunted by the Gestapo after writing a book castigating them. Then he came to the United States and he was jailed by the US government and died in jail, and his work was, can you believe it, burned by the US government! Do these scientists think Newton should have been jailed for not mentioning relativity in his laws of motion? I find it disgusting how scientists look down their noses and mock this person who was hunted by the Gestapo, thrown in prison by the US government and died in jail, and his work burned by the US government. And this a man who was an assistant to Freud. What are these people advocating, anyone who is suspected of making a scientific error should be arrested by the Gestapo and sent to the death camps?

I am really disgusted by this mocking tone adopted towards Reich. This man fought the Nazis, and was hunted by the Nazis, and he deserves respect. I can barely believe what happened to him when he came to the US, it's one of American history's more embarassing episodes. Saying that the scientific community has come to conclusions which are not in his scientific work and so forth is fine. But adopting the tone of the Gestapo which hunted him is really sick. -- Lancemurdoch 08:55, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)


I would also like to add that in terms of religious belief, the US has no equal in industrialized countries. A very large percentage of the US population believe the Bible is literally true; that the Book of Revelations is true and predicts the future; that Jesus was born from a coupling of a virgin and a deity, had magical powers, and came back from the dead and ascended bodily into heaven; that people don't die but live forever and will eventually be resurrected and so on and so forth. "In God We Trust" was put on US currency and the words "under God" were put in the Pledge of Allegiance in the US in the 1950's, and when a court had a quarrel with that, the US Congress censured them by a vote which was over 95% pro-censure. School boards in Kansas and elsewhere fight constant battles against fundamentalist Christians who are trying to eradicate mention of evolution from biology classes. And on and on. In this atmosphere, I find it a little strange how Reich, a student and assistant of Freud, who wrote books castigating the Gestapo, was hunted by the Gestapo and came to the US - and who almost unbelievably was jailed for his scientific studies by the US government and his work burned, how he can be mocked and ridiculed for perceived failings in his science, which some have even called "pseudoscience". I am more aware of his political views than his scientific views, I know little about them and concede there may (or may not) be errors in them. But this is a man who was persecuted by the Gestapo and others in his life and is now being persecuted in his death. Disagree with his science if you want, but do not mock him, do not ridicule him, do not act as the Gestapo, the actual Nazi Gestapo actually DID act towards him. He deserves to be treated with respect, even if, like Isaac Newton, he made errors in his scientific analysis. -- Lancemurdoch 09:21, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The reason that Reich is criticized is not that he "made some scientific mistakes", it is that his "orgone" theory is utter and complete nonsense. He discovered a new form of primordial energy that is blue, is responsible for weather, is involved in most disease, and can be concentrated in boxes and used to beneficial effect on humans? Please. The analogy to Newton is absurd. Newton advanced physics immensely. Of course he didn't solve all of physics (I don't know that I'd say he made any mistakes; I don't think of failing to discover relativity and quantum mechanics in the seventeenth century to be mistakes). Reich advanced nothing. Saying so does not make me a Nazi.

No, but it does make you an idiot. You say his theory is utter and complete nonsense. Where is your proof of this? Just because you don't like the idea of something, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is nonsense. And you say that Reich advanced nothing, well, maybe if the word wasn't filled with closed minded blinkered fuckwits like you, he may have done.


The repeated juxtaposition of his persecution by the Gestapo and his being jailed in the U.S. is completely unfair. The Gestapo treatment was typical fascist repression. His trouble in the U.S. was completely different. The U.S. has rules against selling medical devices that have not been approved (approval requires proof of safety and effectiveness). These rules prevent me from coming up with some crazy contraption in my basement and marketing it as a cancer cure, and are intended, among other things, to combat medical fraud. A court determined that Reich was breaking these rules and told him to stop. When he didn't stop, he went to jail. Josh Cherry 21:59, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Reich's work was definitely pseudo-science... but the government definitely engaged in the unsavory practice of book burning. Words should either stand on their own, or fall own their own. No government should be in the business of deciding what people should read.

In any case, there is at least one statement that seems to border on POV:

  • ...many scientists still dispute and call pseudoscience (as of 2004).

Still and as of...? Despite claims to the contrary, modern scientists have examined Reich's work, and found that it does not meet the criteria of science. This isn't an opinion that is ever likely to change. Even if orgone energy were to some day be found to exist, the best one could say is that Reich made a lucky guess, and not a rigorous scientific examination.

I am a scientist (23 years professional experience since my M.Sc, Univ.of Bristol, UK) and I have read Reich's work. I do NOT agree that his work fails to meet the criteria of science. It does require further work in order to prove it, but unfortunately the scientific community are so incredibly closed minded that unless something fits their narrow viewpoint they will not consider it. Therefore, do not make blanket statements about what scientists allegedly think.

AdmN 01:53, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

One cannot clearly understand Reichs formal analysis without reading his books or minding the concepts of Orgone/Chi and natural energies (Higgs boson, anyone?). Reich didn't discover Orgone, or Chi/Qi. He just formalized the concept of Chi in the modern, western world.

To label it "pseudoscience" does not properly represent the nature of Reich's work, as it was suppresed and censored by the US government. How can work that was taken off the shelves, burned & never properly explored within the general scientific community, be viewed as fakery?

"orgone guns" and "weather engineering"

"Reich designed orgone "guns" called cloudbusters to suck DOR from the sky. It has been claimed that they can be used to manipulate the weather and to create rainstorms in a process called weather engineering. According to some accounts, the government of Eritrea financed several such projects in the 1980s and 1990s in order to change the weather in the region." (article as of 2 Nov 04)

According to which accounts? This statement seems somewhat unlikely on the face of it and definitely needs verifying. For a start there was no "government of Eritrea" as such in the 1980s since Eritrea didn't become independent till 1993. Also, scientific methods of producing rain (cloud seeding) had been in use since the 1940s and 50s. - Flapdragon, 2 Nov 04

I agree. I think thart this article shouldnt be categorised under science. Reich may have had a scientific education, however we pirmarily remember him for his countributions outside any standard framework of science. We chiefly associate Reich with orgone research, which was never peer reviewed nor was it conducted in any process resembling science. Salimfadhley 10:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Strong Opinions

Clearly there are some strong opinions regarding Reich and his work. While that's okay, these opinions (for or against) shouldn't be inserted into the article. Statements such as:

"His scientific discovery of 'orgone energy',
and various experiments with the orgone energy
accumulator, which have been confirmed by various
scientists in both the USA and Europe, even while
the professional 'skeptics groups' in the USA
have repeatedly misrepresented that evidence,
or tried to deny its existence."

show a strong and argumentive bias without citing sources to support this statement. Sources from skeptics should also be presented if the skeptics are mentioned. A link to articles is required here so that this work can be verified (as reminded in every edit window). 152.163.100.8 00:04, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

TAKE A FAST LOOK. http://www.rainengineering.com/

And now? What they will say?


There is no doubt about his works anymore.

What will you say? 98% Coincidence forever?

com ´on show your criticism now!


DissidenceIsConscience 03:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC) Are you kidding ? Reich was a founding memeber of the Vienna Psychoanalytic Association; he is a very historic figure in the history of modern Psychology, borrowed from liberally by his peers. The weird uncle of modern psychology deserves to get his proper due. This isn't a bad article, but could use some more refernces and his early history needs to be filled-out properly.

Reich's Politix

Reich's orgone lunacy aside, I had to alter the article as it stood, because an anonymous editor put in what is essentially a rightwing slur (masquerading as even-handedness on the question of "red/black" fascism).

I haven't read Reich's book on fascism, but I would be willing to bet a small sum that the anonymous editor might even have stretched the boox' message even more than this; but since I don't know, I have altered the sentence to a more accurate "stalinism" from the crudely propagandistic "communism" -- rather than excise it completely, which is really what I'd prefer myself.

Article Supporting Reich's Biophysics is NOT biased.

I have studied Reich's orgone research for over 30 years, and assembled the on-line Bibliography on Orgonomy. I did personal research with the orgone accumulator and cloudbuster, published that work under tha auspices of universities and governments, presented this research subject at all kinds of academic forums and scholarly societies, and conclude that the hostility to Reich's orgone energy theory, and against the scientific evidence supporting it, is purely anti-scientific scientism. The super-critics who always attack Reich's orgone energy research, I say, suffer from total bias and exhibit phoney scholarship of the worst sort. The attacks against Reich's biophysical work is often being pushed along by people who have a vested interest to try and mis-portray Reich as having "deserved" to be imprisoned, to have his books burned, and so on. They often are associated with the organzied "skeptic" groups, who attack all kinds of alternative medicine, and give the appearance they are "in the pockets' of the drug companies. Or, perhaps they don't want to see any kind of alternative medical approach be successful. it does not matter. A genuine scienitst must personally investigate what he or she criticizes, before making the critique. So I ask the critics of Reich's orgone research to moderate their tone until they have investigated! I have read virtually all of Reich's original publications, including the "banned and burned" ones, and now put a good list of these publications on the web page. Will they now just erase them? To make it easier to claim that such work "does not exist", just as they claim the orgone energy "does not exist", in spite of many good experiments?

I have read all the published verifying experiments, from the Journal of Orgonomy, Annals of the Institute for Orgonomic Science, Pulse of the Planet, Emotion, Lebensenergie, and other journals. I have read the various academic dissertations and theses which further support Reich. It is an excellent, and quite remarkable large body of positive supporting evidence. There are many such published experimental accounts. Hundreds in fact. What do the "skeptics" have to offer in the way of published negative results on orgone experiments? NOTHING. None of the "skeptics" who publish bad words about Reich's biophysical work have ever undertaken even ONE experiment. They are "armchair experts" who do no work, only criticize and censor, and then sit quietly when books are burned.

I challenge anyone to make a citation, to the work of anyone, which presents details of any experiment giving negative results, by which to contrast and undermine the many, many published accounts with positive results. As a practicing scientist and former university professor myself, I can make this challenge because I know the literature, and know what has and has not been done. So I ask everyone, to stop with all the bad words about Reich's biophysical work, calling him a "quack" or claiming orgone research has "no support" or is "psuedoscience" and so on, because these hard criticisms cannot be supported scientifically. In fact, it is the critics of Reich who behave like psuedoscientific quacks, because they do no experiments, do not read the literature, and speak without full knowledge. No genuine scientist acts that way. And in fact, the heavy weight of scientific evidence is on the side of Reich.

James DeMeo, Ph.D. http://www.jamesdemeo.org

Here you go: http://www.datadiwan.de/netzwerk/index.htm?/harrer/ha_001e_.htm
Will you stop messing up this article now? (BTW and article -supporting- any theory on wikipedia is biased by definition, this article should do nothing more than explicate) Kev 22:12, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Too long, too biased

This article is too long for a minor scientist whose works are controversial, to say the least. It is longer than the articles on, say, Kepler or Freud! Besides that, Mr. DeMeo's misplaced advocacy is a good example of how not to write an article for Wikipedia. I think it should be completely rewritten and drastically reduced.

Ah, so anything contraversial shouldn't be considered? Wasn't Einstein's theory of relativity contraversial when first postulated? Better not mention that either.

Too long? Funny, it's just a wee bit shorter than the article on the albatross...Soft helion 22:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Rewriting

I agree that this article needs a rewrite, so I've started one and have uploaded some pics. I don't agree that it needs to be shorter, but it does need to be more readable. I've taken the NPOV tag off as it was placed on the page by an anon AOL proxy without discussion. Hope that's okay with everyone. SlimVirgin 21:58, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

You can't possibly expect anyone to believe that's the best headshot available.

A big thank you to the people who cleaned up this article.

Just the opinion of a regular reader who stumbled on this, but I agree that the length is fine. Freud's entry isn't that long because a lot of his theories are split off onto separate pages. If all of Reich's related topics are going to be under one entry, it seems like a reasonable length. It sounds as though he's had enough impact in psychoanalysis for that to be relevant and even the orgone stuff seems to be drawing interest from various quarters no matter it's legitamacy (or lack thereof). I agree that there's stuff that could still be reworded to be clearer or less biased (and maybe flip the position of the two head shots?), but it doesn't seem all that far off to me at the moment (Dec 13 05).

Change of Picture?

I admit I know very little about this man and whilst he may not be a completely credible member of the scientific community, it seems unneccessary to use a picture of him which makes him resemble a lunatic. If there are any pictures of him taken on a day in which he did not attempt to comb his hair with a combine harvester, I move that they be posted instead. Wencer 03:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

LOL!! SlimVirgin (talk) 22:11, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Changes to intro

I've been asked elsewhere why I reverted to the old intro. There were a few reasons: first, it seemed unnecessary to include details like his joining a psychoanalytic society. Second, calling him one of the most innovative etc is POV if not attributed. Third, it's not clear what's meant by "the basic anthropological view of man" and it's being "covered" by his political activism. Fourth, I don't know what cold exclusion is as opposed to hot. Fifth, did he realize he was in danger on precisely Jan 30, 1933? Sixth, the detail about character analysis is meaningless to most people and therefore inappropriate for the intro. Seventh, "illnesses due to disturbed" etc: sounds like we're endorsing that view, and anyway it's odd English. That's not all but these are some of my reasons. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:11, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

There may be some odd English in it -- it's not my mother tongue. If you had improved upon this...OK. But more important seems to me the errors back now thanks to your revert. Reich was NOT trained by Freud, he just joined the psa. society (should I tell by whom he was trained ?) He did NOT claim to have discovered orgone in the 30s. ... numerous erroneous data... And so on --- see my text.

What's POV ? Reich was in fact one of the most innovative PsA in that time. I told why by key-words in brackets. "what's meant by 'the basic anthropological view of man' -- cannot be cleared in this article, but should be mentioned. Why ? see the following: Cold exclusion - odd English ? Improve it - should point to the process of his expulsion, which was a plot initiated secretly by Freud and has a background too complicated to tell here -- therefore the catch-word "cold exclusion". "Covered" by his political activism -- odd English too ? Improve it -- is important, because to insinuate Reich's activism as the reason for his expulsion covers/camouflages the underlying basic difference between the anthropological views of Freud and Reich. Yes, it was precisely that date of Jan 30, 1933 -- Reich had first to hide and then to flee Germany.

If you'd changed/improved my text, this would be OK. But that you prefer the old text with grave errors, lacunae and redundancy/overstating (e.g. the Einstein episode, the paragraph on "T-bacilli") is not OK.

<hapax@gmx.de> 28th dec 14:15 h

Category:Pseudoscience

Since it is backed up by reproducable experiments it cannot be considered as pseudoscience. I'll therefore better remove that category. Der Eberswalder 04:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

And in what reputable science journal can we find the results of these supposedly reproducible experiments? Haven't the claims actually been repeatedly falsified (no detectable health benefits, etc.)? Where is the peer review? Where are the functional devices based on these claims? The theory is decades old and we see no progress towards practical application. That seems to fit the definition of pseudoscience to me. Please provide some information about the reproducible experiments you are referring to. --71.242.104.138 21:39, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

"rm disguised whale.to link"

What exactly is the objection to the link removed in the edit with this cryptic summary? Surely what matters is the content of the source linked to. What's the URL got to do with it? Flapdragon 23:41, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


THANK YOU !!!

Dear Dr Wilhelm Reich, wherever or whatever you are now, please listen to my words: during early 1980s (when i first read about your theories on Larousse Encyclopedia) I tried to discover more about your studies, and after less than a decade, though I was just a University student in Maths and Physics, I got familiar with Psychology and Medicine; this background helped me to understand your works, I studied on my own some of your books and some other scientists' books relevant to your theories. Thank you: I've been able to win the pain in my life and gain a (sort of deistic) faith in the Universe and in the Humankind. Thank you: now I can understand the whole matter behind the "secrets" of Science that Governments want to hide. Thank you: I look almost 20 years younger now, and it seems that I deserve to be offered an opportunity for a new life. skysurfer 17:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Michelson-Morley experiment?

I could not figure out the reason why there was such a link, and no mention is in the article. Deleted. --Giocov 19:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

"intro restored"

For some time now there seems to be a little edit war between Slim Virgin and me about the intro lines. While I gave some reasons for my restoring (factual errors, missing info) SV keeps silent about the reasons of her doings. I can't understand why she insists that Reich was trained by Freud, talked about orgone already in the 30s or that he died just one day before his release from prison etc. Maybe she can give an explanation here. --Nescio* 15:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The writing you're introducing doesn't read well; you're adding that he was headstrong, which is your POV; he was trained by Freud; he did die one day before he was due to apply for parole; and it's not clear that Character Analysis is still a major textbook. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:48, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Slim Virgin, if you'd improved on my text I'd no objection. But you can't restore the intro by bringing back all the errors of the old version. "Headstrong" may have been not the most fitting word for what I meant - I changed it. There is no evidence for a training of Reich by Freud. But if you want to say that he was trained in the Vienna psa. group led by Freud, this should be expressed in different words - I improved on my former text. As to the status of Character Analysis I chose a more precise description. If you still have some objections, stylistic or factual, please don't "restore" the introducing lines by the old faulty text. Let's discuss it here and find aconsensus. --Nescio* 12:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Similarly, if you had improved mine, I'd have no objection. As you're the one who wants to change a long-standingintro, you're the one who needs to argue your case. I've removed that he was trained by Freud, because you don't like it, and also removed "one day before due to apply for parole," because you think it was longer, but otherwise I've left it as it was. Also, please don't remove valid links. If you have objections to the current intro, please list them here, but don't keep replacing it with a new one. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where your knowledge about Reich comes from. Why are you defending it so stubbornly against facts you can read in Reich's books as well as in any biography of Reich? --

  1. What he did "in the 1930s" is not what you describe and insinuate.
  2. He fled from Germany immediately after Hitler was appointed Reichskanzler at 30th Jan 1933, not because his Massenpsychologie des Faschismus (which appeared later in Danish exile) was banned by the NS.
  3. His MPF was the reason that he was excluded from the KPD (German Communist Party) in 1933 which you deleted as his exclusion from the International Psychoanalytic Association in 1934.
  4. The articles in the New Republic and Harper's were not about orgone, as you write, but on his new edition of Mass Psychology of Fascism, i.e., as I wrote, they were politically motivated.

I can't be thankful to you that you removed one of your errors, because I "don't like it".

I don't only "think" that Reich died more than 1 day before his apply for parole. Look at the sources.

Errors "long standing" or not: I won't stop correct them. --Nescio* 08:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Please stop adding odd writing to the intro. The lead section must be well written and flow properly. Sentences such as: "He was a .. a natural scientist far from mainstream (orgone research)" are not acceptable, and there are other grammatical errors. Also, we can't claim the stories were politically motivated. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I freely confess that I'm not a native speaker. So please correct my grammatical errors - as I corrected your factual errors. --Nescio* 13:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

But I am a native speaker, so if I tell you something is grammatically incorrect, please don't keep on blindly reinserting it. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I can't do better. But why don't you correct my errors? Why do you keep blindly reinserting the grammatically correct but factually erroneous text? --Nescio* 09:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The political motivation of the articles is beyond any doubt. One of them, Frederic Wertham's in the New Republic of Dec 2, 1946, ends as follows: "But could they [the intellectuals] not, each in his special sphere, be it science, literature or journalism, use their technical knowledge to combat the kind of psychofascism which Reich's book [The Mass Psychology of Fascism] exemplifies?" --Nescio* 14:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

You are not allowed to say it was politically motivated. You have to find a source that says that. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Sources are the articles. Did you read them? Did you read my quotation? --Nescio* 09:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The intro you keep trying to insert contains poor writing, and I'm requesting that you stop putting it on the page. For example:

Wilhelm Reich was ... a psychoanalyst of the circle around Sigmund Freud in Vienna, and author, later a natural scientist far from mainstream (orgone research)."

This is not acceptable English.

You said so - several times. I don't oppose. Why don't you try to improve on it, as I asked you? --Nescio* 09:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC) (But don't replace your old factual errors)

Please write out a list of the factual errors you see in the current intro, and then supply sources for what you want to replace it with. You must supply sources for what you want to say, because otherwise I have no way of judging it. For example, I can find no evidence from a mainstream, reliable source that his book is "regarded as a milestone," or as you were claiming earlier, is still a major textbook. On the contrary, it is entirely neglected so far as I know. I stand to be corrected, but you must show me what source you are using to make that claim. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Did you read my list above? I won't take the trouble to bring by sources for facts you can read in any article on Reich

(recommended: Paul Edwards, Enc. of Philosophy, 1968 ed.) or biography (recommended: Myron Sharaf). Moreover, if you'd only read this very wiki article to the end, you'd find some of the facts you keep trying to delete in the intro.

--Nescio* 09:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
You must supply sources for the edits you want to make, or they will be reverted, and from now on without discussion, because you are editing disruptively. Start with supplying a source for this one: that his book is regarded as a milestone in psychoanalysis.
Write out a list of what you see as the errors in the introduction, and supply a source for the replacements you want to make. And please review our content policies before editing further. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I did supply sources, you did not, but kept stubbornly reverting to the old erroneous text, now not only of the intro but of the paragraph on t-bacilli too. I really can't understand your motivation. Read under "dispute resolving": Do not simply revert changes in a dispute. When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate, improve the edit, rather than reverting it. Here it's not even about bias but about simple facts you can read in any text on Reich (see above).

--Nescio* 14:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and that applies to you too. YOU are the one who wants to make changes. I have asked several times for sources and you refuse to supply them. I've asked you to list what you regard as the errors in the current intro and sources for your replacement, but you won't do it. In addition, you're editing grammatical errors into the text. From now, I'll be using rollback to revert your edits without further comment, as I consider this to be disruptive editing. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Mainly I restored the chronological order. I guess you gave the home page of the Reich museum as source for biographical data only for a temporary standing, and removed it. What I wanted to include in the intro the reader can find in the article: that Character Analysis was a milestone in Psychoanalysis in 1933, and Reich nevertheless was expelled from it in 1934; that the defamatoty articles in The New Republic were written by USSR fellow travellers after the publication of The Mass Psychology of Fascism in the US, i.e. they were clearly politically motivated, and so on. --Nescio* 21:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Slim Virgin seems to be determined to smash anything I edit here. S/he even insists on a seriously distorted chronology in the intro passage, inconsistent with the source s/he gave and with what is written in this very article below. From the beginning of our edit war she kept being reluctant to improve on my text and simply reverted with utter stubbornness to her old erroneous story. How to stop this silly activity ? --Nescio* 19:32, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I have told you how to stop this "silly activity" many times. (a) List what you regard as the errors in the intro. (b) Say exactly what you want to replace them with and cite a source. Or if you simply want to add something, say what (here on the talk page) and cite your source.
You are removing properly sourced information AND the sources. Therefore, you're being reverted. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you to use the source you gave. Read it - and this very article - and please mind the chronology. --Nescio* 07:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

With utter patience - because and in spite of Slim Virgin's faible for reverts - I reworked the intro again. Please, don't simply revert it to the old version which is partly erroneous, partly incomplete. There is no need to give explicitly sources for what I wrote since you can find it in any serious account of Reich's life, two of them I noted above (Myron Sharaf, Paul Edwards). As to the nature of the articles in The New Republic and Harper's ("defamatory") you may read the articles or consult Sharaf or, for more and new details of the political background of the protagonists, the book by Jim Martin, Wilhelm Reich and the Cold War.

--Nescio* 15:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Slim Virgin again simply reverted to the old deficient version of the intro:

  • s/he still asserts that Reich was a member of Freud's "inner circle" (which is not true, he only "had access" to Freud);
  • s/he still ignores the biographical chronology (orgone period 1940-57 before WR as communist 1927-33);
  • s/he now even presents Reich as a cancer and impotence quack;
  • s/he still asserts that the 1947 articles, which appeared undoubtedly in a political context are "about orgone";
  • s/he's intercepting the most dramatic events of in Reich's career (1933/34);
  • s/he resorts partly to dubious secondary sources (note 2 and 3); and
  • s/he obviously refuses to consult serious sources as the generally esteemed biographies by Sharaf or Boadella, or the excellent and concise article of the noted American philosopher Paul Edwards in Paul Edwards (ed.), Encyclopedia of Philosophy, MacMillan, 1968

Now anyone interested in the quality of this article may judge and make suggestions as to what can be done to stop the stubborn and destructive reverting Slim Virgin did over several weeks or even months of my intro texts. Wikipedia should have developped regulations to handle with cases like this.

--Nescio* 20:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Topic continued below under Lead --Nescio* 07:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Reich in Prison

Is there any good particular reason we need an "illustration" of Reich in Prison? Rrose Selavy 17:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

We don't need any illustrations, but I see nothing wrong with this one, and it has a free licence. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, it adds nothing and looks like a form of vanity publishing to me. I'm sure I could get my work seen by many people if I inserted it in a few Wiki articles as "illustrations" . Rrose Selavy 18:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

One of the stupidist things I've heard in a long time. Isn't wikipedia the "user created encyclopedia"? You're saying that it's better to donate someone else's work than your own? Do you write your own words on wikipedia or just make "fair use" of the words of others?
I agree with Rrose Selavy: the illustration should be removed. It's merely an edited version of Reich's portrait at the top of the article. Apart from the three prison bars and the wallpaper it carries no additional information.Sluzzelin 13:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree. It has no encyclopedic value. It should probably go up for deletion as well. Fagstein 16:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed the foolish, hand-drawn sketch. This isn't an art class, but a biography. Let's use photographs, let's use things of substance to present information about this man whose work has not been fully explored yet. Terryeo 21:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • This artist says, in image:wilhelm Reich by Koehne.jpg:
I don't need to art for my sustenance, and this isn't a my propaganda. I don't make drawings by payment. Thanks.
Io non ho bisogno ad arte per il mio sostentamento, e questo non è una la mia propaganda. Io non costituisco disegni pagamento. Grazie.
Yo no necesito al arte por mi sustento, y esto no es un mi propaganda. Yo no hago los dibujos para el pago. Gracias.

...200.223.27.36 17:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Religion

Hello Slim Virgin,

I just wanted to write about the fact that WR was educated out of religion tradition. That mean free of religious education. I think that information bring some enlightment to that singular character.

That knowledge is displayed page 905, on "Dictionnaire de la psychanalyse" by Elisabeth Roudinesco, and Michel Plon.

She is historien, docteur ès lettres, directeur de recherche à l'université de Paris-VII, vice-presidente de la Societe internationale d'histoire de la psychiatrie et de la psychanalyse, psychanalyste.

He is directeur de recherche au CNRS (Centre National de Recherche Scientifique), membre du Centre de recherche universitaire psychanalyse et pratiques sociales de la Santé, psychanalyste.

It is probably not very well written, english is not my native tongue, I am french. So long ;)Yalla 12:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Yalla, I have no problem adding that he was an atheist if that's what you want and if you think it's relevant, but we'd probably need more details of what is said exactly in the Roudinesco/Plon work. Just because someone is Jewish doesn't mean they're necessarily religious, and your edit implied that usually it did. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Lead

(cont'd from "intro restored")

Nescio, the page has now been protected because of your repeatedly reverting to an intro — since December 2005 as an anon — that couldn't stay on the page because of the English, if for no other reason. Apart from the writing, it is far too detailed and it attempts to minimize that Reich is now principally known for his claim to have discovered orgone. You may think it's unfair that he's remembered for this, but we're here to reflect what mainstream sources say about him, rightly or wrongly.

I've done two things in an effort to get this right: (1) I've ordered a Reich biography; I forget the name, but it's the one you recommended above; (2) I spoke to another editor about this who recommends that we add to the intro that Reich is also remembered for having engaged Freudian theory with politics, especially the struggle against Fascism, which made him a sort of forerunner or fellow traveller of the Frankfurt School. Once I've read the bio, I'm happy to add that to the lead.

What you can do: (1) first you must stop reverting to a version with poor English. This is the English Wikipedia, and articles have to be written in decent English; you can't insist that other people copy edit your work, especially when they don't agree with it; (2) please understand that we edit according to what most published sources say, and that your personal opinion is irrelevant, as is mine; (3) we are going to use the current lead as a base, so please list exactly what is wrong with it, point by point; (4) also list, citing sources, what is missing from the lead, and why it's important enough to be included. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 06:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, it might help you to read WP:LEAD for a summary of what a lead section should do. It is not a chronology and should not be written as though it is. It is meant to pull out the most important points about the person regarding why he is remembered. You should also read our core content policies: WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV, and a related guideline, WP:RS. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate that now you decided to read a Reich biography. Though, Sharaf's book is quite detailed. So the article by Paul Edwards in The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1968 edition, may better for now. Edwards is a born Viennese and a noted American philosopher (the chief editor of the Enc.Phil.).

But actually I think it's not necessary for you to become a Reich expert. Why shouldn't we both work together in a joint effort? I could contribute the expert knowledge on Reich, and you could polish up my English.

Under "intro restored" I already listed many arguments, and I won't repeat them here. In reply to your last posting I'd like to add two points:

  • It may be true that Reich at present is widely known for his orgone theory. Though, this does not justify to underexposure more than two third of his life time in an encyclopedic article. The term orgone cannot be found in his work before 1940. And remember: Reich was rediscovered during the 1960s not as orgonomist, but because of his work before 1940, both in Europe and the US. Cf. Lee Baxandall (ed.): Sexpol. Essays by Wilhelm Reich 1929-1934
  • If the lead/intro is too long it should be shortened not by shunning the most decisive event in his professional life, i.e. the caesura of 1933/34, but by thinning out the end phase, just saying that Reich, claiming some medical effects of his orgone devices, came into conflict with the FDA, resulting in a prison sentence. The role of the Stalinist fellow travellers (see Jim Martin's book, or Sharaf's) of The New Republic can be exposed in the main text.

--Nescio* 08:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Nescio, please (a) list here exactly what is wrong with the current lead, point by point; (b) citing sources, list what you believe is missing from the lead, and why it's important enough to be included. Don't refer me to previous posts, because I didn't understand them. Please just make the list so I can see clearly what the issues are, and include your sources for each point, please.
Regarding orgone, we go with what the sources say. They say he is chiefly remembered for that. In fact, very few people remember him for anything else. Our article must reflect that; see WP:NPOV. Ditto with the prison sentence, the FDA, and the articles. That is why they're in the lead section. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, what is your source for the statement that "the most decisive event in his professional life [was] the caesura of 1933/34," and what exactly does the source say i.e. what words does the source use? SlimVirgin (talk) 09:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

You did not understand my previous posts? And not my alternative intro text? Because of my awful English? Was it that "odd" that you even were unable to ask for an explanation of indistinct passages? Not to speak of a helpful improving...

"The sources" say that Reich is chiefly remembered for orgone. What sources? Among those used for the article are some quite fishy ones. You easily can find many sources for the opinion that Reich is chiefly remembered as a madman and quack. To rely upon those sources is the opposite of WP:NPOV. As I said, and as you can read up in any serious source, during more than two thirds of Reich's life there was no orgone at all.

I'd suggest we wait a bit, until you'll have made yourself acquainted with the basic facts of Reich's biography and work, especially with the caesura of 1933/34. Then it may be possible to enter into a reasonable discussion.

--Nescio* 13:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

In the meantime, I'd like to ask for unprotection so that others can edit the article. Will you undertake not to revert to your version of the lead again?
Also, I genuinely didn't understand your previous points. Please start from fresh and explain them again here, but using sources for any points you want to add.
As for your understanding of NPOV, I'm afraid you have misunderstood it. See my post below. We represent the majority and significant-minority published views. When he died, not a single specialist journal ran an obituary for him. Time magazine did, and they talk about orgone. Time is regarded as a mainstream source. I suspect the publications you are referring to are tiny-minority ones (but so far, you've only mentioned two, one of them an encyclopedia of philosophy entry published in 1968, which we would not regard as authoritative). SlimVirgin (talk) 07:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
All this turmoil is so strange to me. As a psychologist for over 35 years, a faculty member and a supervisor of psychiatrists and psychologists for about the same amount of time, I am very puzzled by it all. I tried to edit this article once, and immediately had my changes reversed. Someone wants the Orgone business to be foreground, instead of emphasizing Reich's contributions to the history of psychotherapy and personality theory, which were enormous. Reich's book Character Analysis is really the beginning of so much that we now accept about the relationship between early experience and personality and the body. I wonder how long this note will stay up before it is erased. Most of us in the profession don't worry a lot about the Orgone business. Reich's reputation should not stand or fall based on it alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.177.208 (talk • contribs)
I'm afraid you've misunderstood the nature of Wikipedia. We are here to represent the majority and significant-minority published views on any topic. It's your opinion that Reich made an enormous contribution to psychotheraphy, but there are many psychotherapists who would disagree with you. That apart, Reich is widely known outside psychotherapy for his claim to have discovered orgone, for having his books burned, and for dying in jail. He is, in fact, famous because of those things. Had he not discovered orgone, it's unlikely anyone outside a very small circle would ever have heard of him.
We are here to represent the majority and significant-minority published views on any topic. Therefore you should mention the controversy surrounding him, that he's regarded as a quack by the scientific community, that he remains widely read, that he's a major influence on the field of bodywork and on the field of body psychotherapy, and that his theory of character analysis was regarded at the time as a major contribution to the psychoanalytic community. Seriously, this seems like a non-issue. One of you ought to have taken the initiative and edited your versions into one and not just keep reverting the page. I would have been happy to do so but now you've locked it and started an interminable mediation process.
There are numerous contentious subjects on wikipedia, many of them in the same field (e.g. acupuncture) and the pro and con factions manage to keep to their respective corners of the sandbox. The success of the wikipedia project is predicated on people working together to present a fair representations of the facts, not requesting mediation every time they get into an argument.
It's your opinion that Reich made an enormous contribution to psychotheraphy, but there are many psychotherapists who would disagree with you. You'd have a hard time getting psychotherapists to agree on any single individual as being an important and legitimate contributor to psychotherapy. Jung, for instance, is no longer regarded as an important figure in developmental psych or cognitive therapy, but that has no impact on his significance as a historical figure. the fact that there are numerous accredited institutions in Europe and the US that continue to teach both Reich and Jung's theories is enough to legitimate them as influential, 'significant minority' figures in the history of psychotherapy.Soft helion 22:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
We are here simply to reflect that, not to reflect the specialist views of psychotherapists. Of course, that doesn't mean those views have no place in the article, and if you feel they're not properly represented, I'd encourage you to create a section on Reich's contributions to the field. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I am against unprotection, even if the last update shows the old erroneous and incomplete version. Let's better wait some time until some other people will have read this strange discussion and commented on it.

--Nescio* 13:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

FYI from a psychology professional

To both members of the conflict re: what to write about Wilhelm Reich in the Wikipedia encyclopedia section on him:

Original author(?) Nescio, and Editor(?) SlimVirgin:

I am a psychotherapist, and professor of Psychology and have been doing this work for more than 20 years. I believe that the conflict that has happened over this page is for two reasons: (1) Never in 20+ years of work in this field have I heard anyone name the most lasting legacy of Wilhelm Reich to have been his work on Orgonomy. No matter how important this work was, in fact, what he is most remembered for by pretty much anyone in the field of psychology/psychiatry/mental health, who does not know his work in great depth, is his seminal (yes, SEMINAL... he is A SIGNIFICANT contributor, albeit controversial, to original Psychoanalytic thought, along with other members of the Vienna Psychoanaylitc Society such as Freud, Jung, Adler, etc) work on body armoring, social psychology and the emphasis of the symptomatology in the body (hence body armoring) of psychological issues (in the vernacular of that time, "neuroses." Virtually all BODY PSYCHOTHERAPIES, which are a significant and growing area of psychotherapy now, owe their original roots to Reich. Like Freud, the fact that there are controversial areas of his theory that people disagree with, and the fact that there is significant conflict and drama about his personal/political and legal life, are secondary to this MAJOR CONTRIBUTION to modern psychotherapy and the history of psychoanalysis. SlimVirgn, for a reference, see: "Current Psychotherapies," by Raymond Corsini and Danny Wedding, plus any other comprehensive psychology text which deals with the early psychoanalytic movement. There was tremendous (and still is) vitriol, for whatever reason, between many of these early theories and theorists, especially contemporaries of Freud and neo-Freudians (the generation of anaylists immediately around and after Freud) and I believe that because of this, along with the other named controversial issues around Reich's life and work, his most important legacy to psychotherapy has been buried and/or tarnished. To focus on the most controversial, least agreed upon and most looked down upon theories of his in this Wikipedia entry, instead of focusing most attention on the contributions he brought to modern psychotherapy and THEN naming the other issues, feels like putting the cart before the horse. His work on orgonomy and his arrest/political beliefs and conflicts are NOT what he is "MOST KNOWN FOR," in ANY psychological/professional/education circle I have ever been in over the span of more than 20 years of practicing psychology and teaching psychology (including teaching about the neo-Freudians).

If it were up to me (and it is not, this is simply a suggestion which might work for both of you)I would BEGIN the section describing his "most significant contribution," and what he is "most remembered for" with the section that is included fairly well down the page, where you name his contributions to Perls and Gestalt psychology/body psychotherapy, etc, and then FOLLOW IT UP with his work on orgonomy and the differing points of view on it. His other MAJOR, MAJOR claim to fame in this field which I would add to the entry, and would include before ever naming the other information is that his STUDENT and ANALYSAND (patient in psychoanalysis) ALEXANDER LOWEN is famous for using Reich's theories to go on to form BIOENERGETIC ANALYSIS. BioEnergetics has its roots in Reich's work, although also diverged from it, and is still very much alive and well and being practiced as a viable therapy around the world today, while the issues of orgonomy are fairly remotely referenced these days, from what I am aware of as a professional, at least here in the US, no matter how central they were to Reich's own focus. I believe the focus of this entry, to be fair to Reich, and to accurately portray what he is actually KNOWN by most for, should be far more weighted toward his VERY, VERY important contributions to psychotherapeutic thought.... he was the first and only of that early circle of thinkers who FOUNDED PSYCHOTHERAPY to say,. "What we do with our BODY physically is actually a mirror of what is happening in our psyche." In this age of more and more focus on the mind/body connection both in therapy and in medicine, it would be one more tragic loss to Reich, no matter WHAT one might think of him, to lose sight of his truly MAJOR contributions to psychoanalysis (body armoring (looking at how and where clients habitually hold their anxieties, freeze their feelings, etc), character analysis (looking at a client's whole character rather than looking at isolated neuroses) the roots of social psychology (society's effect on the individual, which I have also seen credited to Adler and his concept of "social interest"). These contributions were FAR ahead of his time and are still in use in some form today, although Reich was talking about them in the early 1900's. I understand the entry would also need to name the other things he focused on (orgonomy) because they were very important to him, and have largely fallen by the wayside, at least in some part because of differing views of their accuracy, and I am sure also in large part because of the controversy his theories AND his politics and legal entanglements caused. For the record, according to the website of the Reich society, his works were NOT ORDERED DESTROYED, (which would be a pretty unusual order for a US court over something that was simply discredited, given our first amendment rights) they were ordered to stop being PUBLISHED AND DISTRIBUTED. So the government burning of thousands and thousands of documents appears to be some sort of overstep or overreaction, but the only source for that I have is the Reich Society's website. Perhaps you, Nescio, or their website, would have some neutral third party source or record which could verify what the ACTUAL order of the court was regarding his publications, versus what actually happened to them. (It makes sense that the BOXES were ordered destroyed b/c they were seen, erroneously or not, as "false cures," but it does seem over the top that any judge in the US would ORDER EVERY SCHOLARLY WORK THE MAN DID BURNED, which is essentially what happened. That smacks of SOME sort of earlier form of McCarthyism or SOMEthing, I think, but I am way, way out of my element on that one and only speculating...I certainly think if it is going to be mentioned that all of his documents were destroyed, as is currently mentioned in the entry, that there should be some objective clarification of the facts around what the actual court order was, and how history views such an order now. This might be one way of getting at the alleged ulterior motives or foul play behind his bad press and the accusations which ultimately led to his imprisonment. FYI, also, according to his website, he was sentenced to a 2 year term, and died within his first year, so I would double check on what the actual parole situation was, because the current entry says something like, he died "after more than a year in prison," which contradicts the biographical facts listed on the Reich Society's web biography of him (which does not allege any foul play or political motives behind his imprisonment).

So, SLIMVIRGN, I THINK you are getting the heated and ongoing resistance from Nescio, b/c so much of the page focuses on controversial legal, personal and political issues, and focuses almost solely on the most controversial aspect of his practice (orgonomy, which he only discovered here in the USA, AFTER having worked for years, both with Freud and in high positions in psychiatric institutions in Vienna and only after having done seminal research on the body armoring AND character analysis issues). Perhaps if an honest (and backed up by accurate references) discussion of his controversial (and possibly scientifically inaccurate) research on orgonomy FOLLOWED a thorough discussion of his far less controversial and far, FAR more KNOWN, HONORED and remembered contributions to modern psychology, there would be less discomfort about the entry feeling biased against Reich.

NESCIO: In your misunderstading of the English language, and your passion to defend a thinker about whom you clearly know a great deal (and surely more than I do, from what you say you have studied) what you appear to be MISSING, is that SLIMVIRGN is NOT trying to impugn Reich or your knowledge of him by putting out incorrect facts; s/he appears to be TRYING TO MAKE THIS WIKIPEDIA ENTRY AS PROFESSIONAL AND UNBIASED a work as any other published encyclopedia would be. One cannot include statements indicating that he was imprisoned and his work impugned by Freud's followers and/or those who were angry at his politics, UNLESS THERE ARE VERIFIED FACTS and published articles/books which prove this. AT THE VERY LEAST, if you want her to include such thinking, you would need to provide her with references, such as, "Henry Smith in his biography, "Wilhelm Reich, A Man of Our Times" alleges that complaints about Reich's treatment of cancer came from followers of Freud," for example. Just because there are things that you KNOW, does not mean that she can put them in the entry, unless she can back up that "knowledge" with FACTS THAT ANYONE CAN GO LOOK UP FOR THEMSELVES. ANd it is not enough to tell SlimVirgin that s/he "can go look it up," you have to give him/her a CITATION of an article/research paper/published book, etc, that s/he can reference if you want the infomration to be included in the entry. As you must know, if you have studied Reich's resarch extensively, THIS IS HOW ANY SCHOLARLY WORK must proceed, and encyclopedias, even just online, attempt to be as close to objective scholarly works as possible. In your emails to her you keep saying, "I have told you already," or, You can read this in any text on him," but S/HE CANNOT USE THAT as enough evidence to put a "fact" into an encyclopedia entry. ANY OPINION, EVEN IF IT IS 100% CORRECT, has to be backed up by a SOURCE to be included in something like an encyclopedia entry, and THAT is what s/he keeps saying to you: not that s/he knows better than you about Reich, but that you need to provide him/her with the SOURCES for the information you tell him/her is accurate. If she is going to put in a fact, s/he must CITE where it came from.

So for the sake of both of your satisfaction with this entry, and for poor Reich's sake, whose name deserves to have both SLIMVIRGN's objective reporting AND NESCIO's knowledge of the facts, leave SlimVirgn's entry IN, and when you correct him/her on a fact, "He really did leave his country on such and such a date," simply NAME the volume/article/sourcebook, that you got that infomration from, and s/he will CORRECT the entry appropriately. This DOES NOT QUESTION your knowledge, it gives SlimVirgn and anyone else who reads the entry published information that they can go to for further research.

I am sorry to be so long in this post, and I am not a Wikipedia member, so am ACUTELY aware that my own information (re: URL, email address, etc) appears on this post. I DO NOT WISH TO BE SPAMMED re: this post, I just read through the Reich entry and all of your discussions about it, and thought perhaps my input could help. If not, please feel free to disregard anything that is not helpful.

On behalf of psychological professionals who come to this page to learn more about Reich, I hope you both use your knowledge to put together a fair, unbiased and accurate page about Wilhelm Reich, who IS NOT REMOTE at all, SlimVirgin, but who is every bit as important as Freud, Adler, Jung, Harry Stack Sullivan, Margaret Mahler, and many, many other very eminent psychoanalysts, whom those outside of the field may not have heard of, but who were SEMINAL in forming modern psychotherapy.

Why no pictures of Reich in the article? I would like to know what he looked like. Anon.

Technical:

Why does on top of this discussion page the following link:

To participate, help improve this article or visit the project page for ...

point to Chemistry?

--David Moerike 17:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Someone probably copied the chemistry template and forgot to change it to psychology. I've fixed it. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Einstein episode overstated

In my opinion the episode of the meeting between Reich and Einstein is overstated in the article. Above all, the only source we have on it is the account of Reich, given in the brochure of 1953 The Einstein Affaire, and the letters reproduced therein. No Einstein biographer was able to give additional information on it.

Therefore I'd suggest to reduce the chapter to the solid facts and add it just as a paragraph to the preceding chapter where it belongs.

The text could be as follows (with improvements of English grammar, if necessary):

In 1940, Reich wrote to Albert Einstein saying he had a scientific discovery he wanted to discuss, and on January 13, 1941, he went to visit Einstein in Princeton. Einstein agreed to test the orgone accumulator. Reich supplied the device during their second meeting, and Einstein performed the experiment in his basement, which involved taking the temperature atop, inside, and near the device. He also stripped the device down to its Faraday cage to compare temperatures. Over the course of a week, in both cases, Einstein observed a rise in temperature, and confirmed Reich's finding. However, contrary to Reich who took this as experimentum crucis for the existence of a primordial cosmic energy he had called "orgone", Einstein interpreted the phenomenon simply as resulting from thermal convection currents.

This is the whole story. Reich's later speculations of an influence of Leopold Infeld on Einsteins judgment (because Infeld went to Stalinist Poland after the war) have never been verified.

If there will be no argumentative objection within the next days I'll implant this change.

--Nescio* 08:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

It's understated if anything. The source is the Einstein-Reich correspondence and it's a very telling episode in Reich's life. The biography you yourself recommended devotes quite a bit of space to it. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Sharaf, as you should know, devotes not even 1 chapter out of 32, not even 5 pages out of 500, to this episode. It may be telling biographically, but not as a scientific "Einstein experiment". See Einstein's letter to Reich from 7 Feb 1941 about what really happened in his home, the only and most pertinent source. And there is no need to list the bulk of fringe science literature pertaining to it.
--Nescio* 16:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hawkwind

Why does the article open with a "Hawkwind" redirect? There are many other more prolific artists (writers, musicians etc) who have explored WR's ideas. It seems ultimately unnecessary, irrelevant and selfish to open the Reich article in this manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.148.84.140 (talk • contribs)

I agree. I've removed it. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Hawkwind was one of, if not, the first popular band to write and preform a song about Reich, that's why.

Revert War

SlimVirgin has reverted MY contributions three times to this article regarding the minor wording over 1 sentence.

As the article states, this man in the prime of his career:

In 1947, following a series of critical articles about orgone in The New Republic and Harper's, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) began an investigation into his claims, and won an injunction against the interstate sale of orgone accumulators. Charged with contempt of court for violating the injunction, Reich insisted on conducting his own defense, which involved sending the judge all his books to read. He was sentenced to two years in prison, and in August 1956, several tons of his publications were burned by the FDA. [5][1] He died of heart failure in jail just over a year later, days before he was due to apply for parole. [7]

Can someone else review the two wordings? The lead intro is POV, considering all things. Thanks.Kiyosaki 01:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The lead is balanced, and you're here only because you stalked me here, not because you're familiar with the subject.
The lead makes clear that he was a respected analyst, a controversial figure, regarded by some as having gone astray, but admired by others, then subjected to an investigation, book burning and jail. He is a complex figure and the lead reflects that complexity. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Please do not make personal attacks. The lead is far from NPOV and criticism should be mentioned in the lead, especially when he later served time in prison. I think my wording is more clear and neutral.Kiyosaki 19:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

A long standing revert war

About a year ago user:Slim Virgin started a revert war against me which is still going on.

For anyone interested this are the links of the discussions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wilhelm_Reich/archive1#.22intro_restored.22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wilhelm_Reich/archive1#Lead

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wilhelm_Reich/archive1#FYI_from_a_psychology_professional

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wilhelm_Reich&action=edit&section=3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/Wilhelm_Reich#Question_on_state_of_mediation

I'd like to see other users giving their opinions here.

--Nescio* 10:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate structure of the article (moved from subpage)

There are numerous errors in details of the article; they cannot be listed here. Some of them are already exposed in the talk page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wilhelm_Reich&action=edit&section=6

Still more important is the inappropriateness of the structure of the article:

  • 1 Early life
  • 2 His work
  • 2.1 Early career in Germany
  • 2.2 The bion experiments
  • 2.3 T-bacilli
  • 2.4 Orgone accumulators and cloudbusters
  • 2.5 Orgone experiment with Einstein
  • 3 Controversy
  • 3.1 The Brady article and the FDA
  • 3.2 Imprisonment and death
  • 4 Status of his work
  • 5 Reich in popular culture
  • 6 Notes
  • 7 Reich's work
  • 8 Further reading

Proposal of a new structure of the article

I'd suggest instead a rough structure as follows:

  • 1 Early Life
  • 2 Career as Psychoanalyst
  • 2.1 Orgastic Potency
  • 2.2 Character Analysis
  • 2.3 Expulsion from Psychoanalysis
  • 3 From Politics to Antipolitics
  • 3.1 Prophylaxis of Neuroses
  • 3.2 Freudomarxism
  • 3.3 Sexpol
  • 3.4 Work Democracy
  • 3.5 "The Children of the Future"
  • 4 From Psychoanalysis to Orgonomy
  • 4.1 Vegetotherapy
  • 4.2 Bion Research [incl. t-bacilli]
  • 4.3 The Discovery of the Orgone
  • 5 Orgonomy
  • 5.1 The Orgone Accumulator [incl. "Einstein Affair"]
  • 5.2 Cancer Biopathy
  • 5.3 Orgone Physics and conventional Physics [incl. cloud busting]
  • 6 "Conspiracy" [this is the title of a documentary volume Reich issued about the actions of FDA etc. against him]
  • 6.1 Articles in New Republic
  • 6.2 Injunction
  • 6.3 Trial, imprisonment, death
  • 7 Status of Reich's work today
  • 8 Reich in popular culture
  • 9 Notes
  • 10 Writings
  • 10.1 by Reich
  • 10.2 about Reich
  • 11 External Links

--Nescio* 21:22, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Nescio, do not remove properly referenced, relevant material. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Anybody around there who cares about the Reich article ?

For several months now user:Slim Virgin carries on an edit war against me.

Its history can be studied here (links to archive):

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wilhelm_Reich&action=edit&section=6

For some weeks it is in a mediation procedure which does not seem to arrive at a solution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/Wilhelm_Reich

The trouble is that I have to argue with a person who on the one hand obviously (and admittedly) has only a quite limited familiarity with the topic and on the other hand is determined to write this article alone resp. as the master author. Most of my corrections, beginning at May 30 this year, of even grave errors were answered by a revert. The quality of her replies to my queries you can see at the talk page, continued at the mediation page.

Over nearly six months there was, besides the mediator, only one person who interferred with a long statement.

Is there nobody else who has an interest in the improvement of this IMO utterly poor state of the article ?

--Nescio* 14:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I was in the process of improving it, Nescio, but you've put a stop to that work, so we're now in mediation, where you're currently also turning down the suggestion of the mediator. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Mediation is still going on

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/Wilhelm_Reich

--Nescio* 20:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Why revert a request for citation for the Frank Zappa reference?

Twice I've added in a request for citation for the declarative sentence: "Frank Zappa was also influenced by Reich's work." Twice it has been reverted. May I inquire what is the basis for this reversion? If a citation is not forthcoming, then this is OR and should be removed. Thoughts? Therefore 13:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

  • In the history of the article, I cannot find an edit by you. Could you provide the diff of the request for citation being removed? --דניאל - Danielrocks123 contribs 18:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

My two entries:

13:07, 13 June 2006 (hist) (diff) Wilhelm Reich (Requesting citation for statement that Wilhelm Reich influenced Frank Zappa directly.)

20:50, 15 June 2006 (hist) (diff) Wilhelm Reich (Citation needed for Zappa reference)

Thanks -- Therefore 08:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Delete Frank Zappa reference as uncited OR

Does anyone object if I delete the Frank Zappa reference: "Frank Zappa was also influenced by Reich's work?" I can find no confirmation. Therefore 15:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Go for it. :-) SlimVirgin (talk) 16:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a deletion out of sheer laziness and incompetence. It took me all of 5 minutes to find a reference for this. The time you spend deleting could be spent confirming, but hey, why bother, you don't CARE about the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.77.227 (talk) 08:20, March 16, 2007 (UTC)
Well, since Wikipedia's editors cannot all be equally consumed by the topic of all articles they contribute to, there is the requirement that when documentation is solicited and not found, any statements that are questioned may be removed. Fortunately, other editors again do have this zest and save important information from becoming lost. __meco 19:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Seeing that the information you found has not reached the rest of us, and thus the Frank Zappa information has not yet been restored, perhaps you could provide us with a references to what you found? __meco 19:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Picture of Wilhelm Reich

This article contains no picture of the subject. A Google Image Search revealed a lot of photographs of Reich. But I am not able to understand which is copyrighted & which is not. Can anyone help? TathD 14:38, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I see someone has added one, and also uploaded it to the Commons, where it says it's a free image. I'm wondering how we know this, given that the tag says the author is unknown. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I uploaded it from a web site that publishes all its material under GFDL. There are URLs on the image page documenting this. __meco 19:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
But do you know that they own the copyright? They can't release something they don't own, or that wasn't released elsewhere. Some of these websites don't check their material very carefully, or at all. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I figured this to be their problem. Of course if we investigate this we may find that they make a claim which is untrue. I'm not sure that we need to do this. This is, by the way, a photograph that seems to be rather widely diseminated. __meco 19:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I think it's our problem. We don't have to investigate every claim, but we do need reason to believe an image has been released, and we currently have none. The website doesn't even say explicitly that this image is free. It has already been removed from this article as a fair-use that is easily replaceable. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I wrote to the Reich musuem a few weeks ago asking for an image, but they didn't respond. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Reich papers to be unsealed in 2007?

In the end of this "re-enactment" video there is a mention that Reich stated in his will that his unpublished papers were to be unsealed in 2007, 50 years after his death. Does anyone else have any information about this? When it has or will happen and the like? Thank you.

Youtube link to video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=8L3tKddZFic —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.132.141.165 (talk) 19:26, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

Corrington stuff should be better presented

I originally entered the following on April 16:

Theologian Robert S. Corrington also emphasizes Reich's unusual thinking power in his 2003 Reich biography. He had an almost unparallelled ability to synthesize knowledge from vastly diverging fields "simultaneously maintaining several seemingly incompatible conceptual horizons in one expanding categorial and phenomenological space, while also making continual reconstruction and reconfigurations that correspond to an expanding phenomenal data field."[1]. Corrington asserts that while Freud at best could work out one or two categorial horizons simultaneously, "Reich [...] could hold a number of horizons in his mind while reshaping each one under the creative pressure of the others, [...]producing a rich skein from the game stragies of (1) transformed psychoanalysis, (2) cultural anthropology, (3) economics, (4) bioenergetics, (5) psychopathology, (6) sociology, and (7) ethics."[2]

This was severely trimmed to the point, I feel, that the significant elements got lost in the process. Perhaps this segment is too long for it to be in the introduction, however, I'd like a version of this that is closer to my original one than the current bland mention to appear somewhere in the article. __meco 23:18, 5 May 2007 (UTC)