Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Zoroastrianism

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Zoroastrianism page.

Hi, I'm the first member. Glad to have you here.

Amir85 (a Sassanid lover glad to join this project)

Hi, welcome Amir. Feel free to add the Zoroastrianism wikiproject image to your home page.
--Amin123 13:38, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Cool, I thought of starting this myself, but didn't think anyone else was interested. Where on earth do we even begin?! Khiradtalk 00:50, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I've expanded this page using the other religious WikiProjects (WikiProject Hinduism, etc.) as guidance. I'll continue trying to organize this just to get it started; after all, it can be changed later. Khiradtalk 15:48, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Resources

I thought it might be a good idea to list our resources, so we can coordinate, pool and discuss information better. The resources I use (from most to least, roughly) are:

  • Avesta: Zoroastrian Archives
  • Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices, Mary Boyce
  • Textual Sources for the Study of Zoroastrianism, Mary Boyce
  • The Dawn and Twilight of Zoroastrianism, R.C. Zaehner (also read Teachings of the Magi, but don't have my own copy)
  • Persian Mythology, John R. Hinnells
  • Zoroastrianism, Paula R. Hartz
  • Persian Myths, Vesta Sarkhosh Curtis
  • Man's Religions 5th ed. ch. 12, David S. Noss
  • Religions of the Silk Road, Richard C. Foltz
  • [http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/frontpage.htm Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies] - blacklisted URL per [1] & elsewhere. The Behnam 23:08, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Farvardyn
  • Vohuman
  • Traditional Zoroastrianism (for the Conservative Parsi POV)
  • various other random sites and books with some useful information, but not worth mentioning - Plus things like the Shahnameh, Book of Daniel, Rig Veda, etc.

Khiradtalk 16:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Adding to the above:

  • Parsiana - bi-monthly magazine of the Parsi community. Back issues available online. The Conservative Parsi POV (see above) considers the Parsiana "heterodox". :)
  • I have a hard copy of a 1400 page 2-volume work "Parsi lustre on Indian soil" published in 1939 which has tons of biographical material on the who-is-who of living (at the time) and dead Parsis. It also has a few short articles such as "Parsis and shipbuilding" (written by a Wadia, so you can guess which POV that comes from), and plenty of photographs, but of poor quality. It also contains descriptions of a couple of curiousities, such as a picture and description of the first bomb shelter (supposedly the first known construction built with that purpose in mind) - built by a Parsi in London in 1914.
  • I have a hard copy of 1979 edition of "What a Parsee should know" by an Ervad (priest) Jal Rustamji Vimadalal. Its a mess structurally (some paragraphs are four or five pages long and cover a multitude of topics), has a poor index, is (mostly) weak on citation, but contains some great passages on themes such as Dualism and (the lack of) a doctrine of reincarnation.
  • I also have access to the books/periodicals one would expect to find in a well-stocked university library.

-- Fullstop 13:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zoroaster

I think this article is actually not of good quality.. It doesn't mention much about where Zoroaster lived (I added a link), what is that stuff about Aryan theory being wrong, etc? Lol..I don't have enough time/info to fix it up at the moment --Kash 00:29, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The problem of the time, when Zoroaster (or Zarat-Ust-Rae) lived, is certainly not solved if we speak of only one Prophet, whose Hellenic title (not name) is supposed to be Zoroaster, which is translated in many ways. But, if we think in terms of several people, who lived at various times in history, then we shall get a more correct picture. And if, we try to use other languages (not only Greek, Sanskrit or something called Avestan), and their title-name Zarat-Ust-Rae, we might get much clearer picture about who those Prophets Zoroasters were! If, for example, we use ancient Slavonic languages, the title-name Zarat-Ust-Rae, makes sense, and it comes out as "Golden-Mouth (from) Raey"! And Raiy is the Paradise in all Slavonic languages, which was a town near modern Teheran (now, I believe, a suburb), where according to Marco Polo, were buried the Magi, who brought gifts to Baby "Saviour" called Jesus (Mat 2:1-12) Interestingly enough, the Saviour born of a "Virgin", who when bathed in a lake (sometimes in Se'istan=Sakastan or Ser'istan, sometimes in Lake Urmiya in Kordistan part of Iran), became impregnated, and gave birth to the Saoshyan or macho-man Mashya (the first man), which became Messiah in Judeo-Christianity. And according to Avesta, there are supposed to be three of them, all the sons of the Prophet, and one is called Maitreya (in fact Mitra, who was Yama's Twin or Mithras), who became Judeo-Christian Archangel Michael. YOURS Georgie ZORIastro, One of the Best Poets of the 20-th Century - www.Poetry.com - E-mail:zorgeo2003@yahoo.co.uk...Written on MAY 20, 2007...

Haha, you should seriously consider anti-psychotic medication. 213.112.137.133 (talk) 10:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Would someone please go over ...

I've made the following edits in the last two weeks. Would someone please go over them?

I've rewritten:

Significant rewrites:

  • Jamshid (the mythological part)
  • Faravahar - previous article was a copyvio of the Boyce article

To do:

Also... Someone please say something to my comment on Talk:Norouz. :)

-- Fullstop 16:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] tried organizing

I tried organizing the articles. --Dangerous-Boy 01:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zoroastrians in Iran

I am working on this article, if anyone has any opinions about the style, info, go a head and let me know. Much thanks, --K a s h Talk | email 16:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huma, Homa

Does anyone know anything about the Huma 'bird of paradise?' Is it Zoroastrian? Or is it Muslim? Or are there two myths confused here? See dicussion at Talk:Homa (mythology). Chris 14:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

A lot of Persian mythology is based on Zoroastrianism, and the fact that there is a Zoroastrian ritual called Homa as well, to me it looks like its most probably a Zoroastrian thing. I have never heard of it connected to Islam. --K a s h Talk | email 14:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Key articles for Wikipedia 1.0

Hello! We at the Work via WikiProjects team for Wikipedia 1.0 would like you to identify the "key articles" from your project that should be included in a small CD release due to their importance, regardless of quality. We will use that information to assess which articles should be nominated for Version 1.0 and later versions. Hopefully it will help you identify which articles are the most important for the project to work on. As well, please add to the Zoroastrianism WikiProject article table any articles of high quality. If you are interested in developing a worklist such as this one (new) for your WikiProject, or having a bot generate a worklist like this one automatically for you, please contact us. Please feel free to post your suggestions right here. Thanks! Walkerma 04:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Stub_types_for_deletion/Log/2006/December/6#.7B.7Btl.7CZoroastrianism-stub.7D.7D_.2F_.7B.7Bcl.7CZoroastrianism_stubs.7D.7D

it's up for deletion —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dangerous-Boy (talk • contribs) 23:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Category:Religious leaders

The current organization there is abit muddled, and needs some discussing how to deal with. A general proposal for cleaning it up is posted at Category talk:Religious leaders#Organization proposal, and more input would be great. It doesn't address the issue of Religious leaders/religious workers/religious figures, but that is another issue that exists. Badbilltucker 21:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 18:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Religion

The group indicated above was recently revitalized for, among other things, the purpose of working on those articles whose content is such that the article does not fall within the scope of any particular denomination. To most effectively do this, however, we would benefit greatly if there were at least one member from this Project working on those articles. On that basis, I would encourage and welcome any member of this Project willing to work on those articles to join the Religion WikiProject. Thank you. Badbilltucker 14:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] To Do List Needed

Hi everyone. I believe we need to create a to do list for this project same as Wikipedia:WikiProject Iran, in order to organise this project and find out what article needs immediate attention, and so on and so forth. Surena 13:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I also welcome contributions to the portal. Shabdiz 13:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Creating a guideline that applies to all religous articles

Please discuss this in a discussion here--Sefringle 03:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New project proposal

There is a new WikiProject task force proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Inter-religious content that is being proposed to deal specifically with articles whose content relates to several religious traditions. Any editors interested in joining such a group would be more than welcome to indicate their interest there. John Carter 15:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Portal:Zoroastrianism needs work

It looks like the portal hadn't been updated in over a month before I threw some new material in. It would really help if some member(s) were to step forward to help manage it. John Carter 23:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Project Barnstar?

Anyone have any ideas on what a barnstar for this project might look like? Personally, I'd like either Image:ZoroastrianismSymbol.PNG or Image:ZoroastrianismSymbolWhite.PNG maybe superimposed over a reddish star. Any opinions? John Carter 00:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The symbol of Zoroastrianism is this one. Which is also why you will find that symbol just about everywhere, including on all articles that include the {{Zoroastrianism}} pr {{Wikiproject Zoroastrianism}} templates. The ones you've pointed out are untypical (actually "fictions" is the more appropriate word).
IMO, its really is not neccessary to create another barn star. There are enough generic ones that - with the right text - would be just fine.
-- Fullstop 23:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Project scope

It's generally easiest on everybody concerned if a given project specifies a particular category which they think of as relevant to their project, and states as much on the project page. Generally, all the relevant articles can then be added to that category. The fact that this project deals with Persian mythology (and presumably some articles in the Category:Persian mythology, and that those articles/categories do not currently exist as subcats of Category:Zoroastrianism, is somewhat confusing. If members could perhaps create a subcat of Zoroastrianism for the relevant Persian mythology articles, I think that would help a lot. Also, I note all the subcats of Category:Zoroastrian history, many/most of which seem to me to be at best peripherally related to this project. I have tagged the articles directly in the Category:Achaemenid dynasty, but only those articles and not those in the subcats, based on the fact that it seems that the official religion of their "family" was Zoroastrianism in some form or other, so they as individuals would probably qualify for inclusion on that basis. I would welcome input from the others whether the subcats should be included as well. Personally, I think that they really don't relate to the main thrust of this project, and could easily be taken on by another group, but that's just one person's opinion. John Carter 01:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

This project deals with Zoroastrianism, not with Persian mythology. "Persian mythology" is a term for a literary genre (hence "Persian", i.e. language, not "Iranian", i.e. culture) that came to be in the around 1000 CE, by which time Iran was predominantly Islamic. Persian mythology does however draw on Avestan tradition.
There is no such thing as "Avestan mythology" or "Zoroastrian mythology" either. Mythology does not play a significant role in Zoroastrianism. Although there are divinities and demons, there are very few tales to go along with them. These divinities and demons simply reflect the stark division of good and evil. Moreover, the Avesta is primarily a liturgy, not a storybook. The one portion of scripture that does have such legends is the Vendidad, in particular chapter 1 of that text, which is incorporated in Persian mythology (with due acknowledgment).
If you go through the newer better-developed Zoroastrianism-related articles (example: daeva), you will find that they are usually divided into two principle sections: a) "in scripture" and b) "in tradition." If the "in tradition" section has a mythology subsection, you will find that the article also includes a category:xxx for the appropriate Persian mythology text being referred to, which is in turn a subcategory of cat:Persian mythology. .
Since "Persian mythology" (effectively) has only one text, that is (for the moment) also the only included cat you will find.
If you go through my older edits, you'll find that I had by default included cat:Persian mythology (and I mention Persian Mythology in the lede) for those articles. I no longer do that because I now know better, but I haven't gotten around to cleaning up the old ones.
-- Fullstop 06:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually, please note that the pre-existing "scope" section of the project page explicitly states that it does deal with Persian mythology, although I think that this was probably intended to mean that it dealt with those articles relating to "mythic" figures like Mithras and others who might make an appearance in Zoroastrian literature and history. In any event, having the subcategories of the Category:Zoroastrianism actually reflect the scope of the project would probably be a good idea. I think that Wikipedia:WikiProject Former countries would probably be the best people to deal with the articles related to the subcats of the Sassanid Empire, and if anyone knows how to include just the parts we want in the Zoroastrian category I think that would be more than welcome. Also, it does seem that some of the articles included in the Persian mythology category, Soma as an example, have content which does specifically related to Zoroastrianism, and that there should be some way to ensure that these articles are somehow included in the project's scope. John Carter 14:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
First, Mithras is Greco-Roman and does not appear in either Zoroastrian literature or in Persian mythology.
Second, Soma is Vedic, not Iranian. The Iranian equivalent is Haoma, but is not the same as the figure in mythology (which is Huma (mythology)).
Yes, Soma has Zoroastrian content, but that is because a certain editor believes that linguistically related terms should to be dealt with in one and the same article. Which - as you demonstrate - comes at the cost of confusion.
-- Fullstop 12:25, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
The primary cause of confusion I see is how two parties who are not members of this project are attempting to determine the scope of a project of which neither one is a member. Isn't that more than a little arrogant? Mithraist 17:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
For one, membership in a project is not a prerequisite for anything. Inversely, any idiot could come along, add himself to the list of members, and use that as a "justification" to play merry hell (which of course other people would then have to clean up).
For another, I do not list myself on Wikiproject pages for a reason. Not being listed doesn't make me any less a participant. Moreover, people who actually contribute to Zoroastrianism-related articles find out fairly quickly that its my wikisphere of competence. I don't have to be (or feel the need to be) listed somewhere to announce that.
Finally, I have no patience for people who don't educate themselves before opening their mouths. If that lack of patience earns me an "arrogant" epithet, then so be it, and it'll be a tag I'll wear with pride.
I'm happy that you're on board, and I hope that you'll be a fine contributor, always keeping {{NOR}} and {{RS}} in mind, and never ever citing the web or anything outdated. :) Happy wiki'ing.
-- Fullstop 22:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Understood. Please, however, directly answer the question asked of you. What gives you the authority to tell others what the scope of their project is? I think it is more than "arrogant" for anyone to tell others what they are doing. I personally think that goes well beyond arrogant into the range of dictatorial. Mithraist 13:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Just as you're entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. I'm sorry if you feel otherwise.
>> I think it is more than "arrogant" for anyone to tell others what they are doing.
Um, lets see. As in, for you to tell me what I am doing? Okaaay. Whatever you say.
-- Fullstop 17:42, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
NO. As in YOU having the arrogance and presumptuousness to tell a group of other people what you will permit THEM to do. Do try to get over yourself, please. No one has any real objections to your continuing to do what you want, as long as you do not have the gall to seek to tell others what their project, of which you are not a member, can do. If it is the case that this project in its entirety is answerable to you, as you seem to believe, then I think there is no reason for it to continue to exist. Mithraist 18:10, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
ok. Whatever you say. I don't remember ever having told "a group of other people what [I] will permit them to do." But if you say I did, then I bow to your judgment.
btw, have you edited before under a different username?
-- Fullstop 19:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Determining project scope

It seems to me reasonable that, under the circumstances, we actually define what the scope of this project is. I'd like to ask the rest of you members of the project what you believe this project should deal with. Given that you members are the ones who will be working with the project, I'd guess your opinions should be the only ones that count in this matter. As a newcomer, I find any attempts at outside coercion and control distressing, and would like to know what the internal opinions of the group itself are. Thanks. Mithraist 14:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expand {{Infobox church/sandbox}} to cover all places of worship?

There is a proposal to convert the draft infobox template {{Infobox church/sandbox}} into a template that can be used for all places of worship. We would like your views on whether you think this is a good idea, and if you are able to help identify parameters that would be relevant to the religion that your WikiProject deals with. Do join the discussion taking place at "Template talk:Infobox church". — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 03:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sassanid Empire

Sassanid Empire has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 05:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)