Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources

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Contents

[edit] VG Chartz

A big problem in writing video game articles is the sales information. Sources discussing sales figures are hard to find and coverage is often incomplete. VG Chartz is a nice, centralized resource for finding such information. I realize that WP:VG had already discussed this issue several months (a year?) ago and decided it might not be reliable enough but I'd like to bring this up again since their methods and standards may have changed. I'll just point to their current About us and Methodology pages which may or may not assuage the previous discussion's concerns about reliability. Axem Titanium 16:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the link; I had never even heard about this site, which is annoying, considering the other tracking sites offered like NPD weren't working at all. Really, this is the only site I've seen which easily accessible and complete figures. David Fuchs (talk) 17:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Concerns

This proposed guideline IMO is definitely something that is needed for the project, but only if it is done well. If done poorly, we could end up with something that doesn't clarify matters any better than WP:RS. Also, we should keep in mind that WP:VG actually covers more than the games themselves: character articles, system articles, series articles, and such could also use consideration.

  • The section on fansites needs to give better guidance on determining what is an unreliable fansite and what is a niche-market news website. This is particularly important when it comes to blog-format sites; some people have a strict "no blogs evar!" viewpoint, which does not take into account the fact that more and more reliable news sites are using a blog format. In the past, I've looked around potential sites for a page describing who exactly posts the articles. If it names just one person, I avoid the site, but if it names several "article writers", "editors", and such I'm more inclined to trust it. Also, if an article has a statement "Some fans believe X, although the game publisher denies this", a fansite could well be used to support the first clause. Anomie 23:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. I was reluctant to write up some clear guidelines on which sites are reliable and which are not, because that would mean needless bureaucracy. The guideline that best serves the project, is one that emphasises that fansites in general are unreliable, and allows for exceptions. Maybe a change in the organisation of the section would help, grouping the information related to recognising reliability. User:Krator (t c) 23:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree that fansites in general are unreliable, the only thing I have trouble with is determining if something is a fansite or if it's a niche news source. Anomie 01:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The section Video games suffers from primary source paranoia. There is not necessarily a need for the Plot section to cite any secondary sources, if the Plot section is just a summary of the game's plot and any analysis comes in a Design or Reception section. Also, FWIW, if a game's manual claims that it "... takes place in a high fantasy setting", that may well be an acceptable primary source for the fact. Anomie 23:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Good point on the manual case. The guideline needs to make a clear distinction between that and using the game itself. I disagree that the plot section should not have to cite any secondary sources. For example, recognising plot elements (e.g. a deus ex machina or quibble) should be done in the plot section, and requires secondary sources. One cannot cite the scene in question and write it is a quibble. User:Krator (t c) 23:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
You have a point about recognizing plot elements, I suppose I've just never bothered trying to do so. ;) One could occasionally identify a plot element if it's so obvious that it's not "likely to be challenged" (as WP:V says), although if it's that obvious it would be as effective to just let the reader identify it themselves. Anomie 01:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The Official information section incorrectly refers to WP:N, which seems to be an extremely common misunderstanding even though WP:N clearly states "These guidelines pertain to the suitability of article topics but do not directly limit the content of articles." WP:FICT is also often misused in this way. When discussing the content of articles, the appropriate references are WP:WEIGHT, WP:WAF, and WP:NOT. Personally, I try to avoid the word "notable" completely in discussing article contents for this reason and prefer "relevant to the topic". Anomie 23:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Should be changed indeed. I will be editing tomorrow, but feel free to change whatever you want to now. User:Krator (t c) 23:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Done. Anomie 01:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • A more in-depth treatment of WP:SPS is needed, especially with regard to what constitutes an "expert on the topic". WP:SPS is written to apply to academic subjects for use in fighting fringe theories, and applying it to fields where "reliable third-party publications" don't exist is difficult or impossible. This is especially important when dealing with aspects of the topic that are often not considered "newsworthy" for all but the most popular games. For example:
    • We can't directly cite "the routine at ROM offsets 0x32d0f–0x32df9" as a source for "In the original NES version [of Final Fantasy], [the weapon elemental and creature-type effectivity] properties and the critical hit chance were not used due to bugs". But if a ROM hacker who has worked heavily on the game describes that bug, can we cite that?
    • Regarding hardware technical characteristics, most official publications (at least those available without being a major game company and signing an NDA) and reviews in news sources are not going to have much detail, and what is available will likely gloss over the details and may be distorted by marketspeak. If a major homebrew game programmer or emulator author produces a more in-depth document, can we cite that?
    Anomie 23:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I will collect some thoughts on this overnight. In principle, this guideline was written with two main goals on improving the project in mind. One of these is changing the perspective of video game articles from a fan's perspective to a neutral point of view, hence the first and third section. The other is to decrease the amount of source paranoia going on, by explicitly stating in a guideline that in some cases forums and blogs can be cited. The above certainly fits the last goal. I think regarding blog and forum posts as unreliable journals is an important step here. User:Krator (t c) 23:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Particularly regarding sales figures but relevant in general, a list of sources considered to be reliable (and unreliable sources that keep coming up) would be helpful as a starting point for anyone trying to find sources. Anomie 23:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
My only concern here is length. Maybe we should just start writing such a list, and see what becomes of it. Properly identifying some of the reliable websites in the area would help, especially concerning the open source/hacker communities. User:Krator (t c) 23:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
    • This is where I point to the issue I raised above about the reliability of VG Chartz. Axem Titanium 23:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:4X

Here's a list from the talk page for 4X. All comments are made by User:Mckaysalisbury. I'd like you to discuss them. SharkD (talk) 02:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

  1. CGW, reliable. Yes
  2. Strategy Gaming Online. Probably not? UGO network, yes.
  3. Deaf Gamers. I'm going to say "no". So will I.
  4. RPG.net. probably not. Yes, part of a commercial network with a proper editorial standard.
  5. GamersInfo. probably not. Just a yes.
  6. Strategy Page. No Not relevant to video gaming.
  7. Taticular Cancer. No Couldn't find this one.
  8. IGN, yes, but we're linking IGN Reviews. It's a user-submitted guide? So I'm kinda iffy on this one too. IGN yes of course, user submitted content not.
  9. Gamespot. Yes reliable, but it doesn't mention the term "4X", it's being used in this article to discus RTSs Yes
  10. Google search for "4X". No way. No.
  11. MOO2 Guide at Blogspot. No No.
  12. Faqs.org. No No.
  13. Apple. Yes Yes.
  14. Gamespy. Yes Yes
  15. Rakrent/RTSC. No No.
  16. MobyGames. It's user contributed, sure, it's an established wiki-like project, but using it to establish notability? Yes, reliable.
  17. Georgia Institute of Technology. Yes. Not relevant to video gaming

Commented some. Only ones I disagree with the original author are 2,4,5. User:Krator (t c) 13:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Browser/flash/MMOG games

I'm especially curious as to what is considered a reliable source in the browser/flash [edit: & MMOG] gaming market. Are they being ignored by the mainstream press because they don't come in a box? Or, are they just not notable? Are they being reported on in some cases and I just can't seem to find them? I'm not that familiar with these games, as I've not played them. SharkD (talk) 04:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Well you're going to have a hard time with this due to the transient nature of this class of games, the difficulty in identifying the origin of the game in some older games that have poor credits and are copied on about a dozen "game portals". I think you would really be limited to games that hit some form of critical mass. For instance I would definitely include Xiao Xiao in a list of notable flash games. You're also going to need to reference some of the earliest games which were actually Java based though. This would certainly be lots of work.BcRIPster (talk) 06:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Oooh. Just had a thought... if you're going to say browser games, then you'd also have to touch on their origins of rudimentary text like adventures based on Gopher systems. And early Graphical Adventure style games that utilized ImageMaps for hotspots on an graphic that took you to the next page (akin to Choose Your Own Adventure type games). Even currently you'd probably have to include (at least peripherally) web based games/emulators like the web based Z-Machine emulator for playing Infocom style text adventures. Really where do you draw the line in defining what is a "Browser" based game? I'm guessing this isn't the can of worms you were looking for :P BcRIPster (talk) 06:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear, I'm not so interested in discussing the games themeselves; rather, I want to understand more about sites that cover them. SharkD (talk) 07:07, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The specific issue is over the usage of JaGeX.com (the creator of RuneScape) as a source on RuneScape. See [1] for the relevant discussion. Nishkid64 (talk) 07:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
No, that is not the issue. I haven't started that topic yet. My concern in this topic is regarding non-affiliated sites that cover these games in the form of news, interviews or reviews. SharkD (talk) 17:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah! Ok, I understand. Well personally a reference here or there that points to a press release or other timestamped material that is used to establish chronology via the related site in and of it self doesn't bother me, but I can see where it can get to be excessive. There should be a balance wherever possible to spread sourcing around. As for publications that specifically cater to covering browser based games? I can't think of any. You may be able to find references to certain games like Runescape, Gaia, etc... in the mainstream gaming media whenever one of them has gotten some spotlight exposure due to some event (most simultaneous log-ins, licensed some patented tech, star developer/artist involvement, commercial enforcements, etc...), or in an article comparing the platforms, but good luck with that. Plus that class of game has to much bleed over with other thin client MMOs so it's hard for alot of people to make a distinction at that point since it almost becomes artificial. I think I can count on one hand the number of sites I've run across that cater to this and I think they're all gone now, surely replaced with others, but I'm not confident if they would count as credible sources in the eyes of the WikiCops.BcRIPster (talk) 16:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I was a little too strict in limiting the subset of games I feel this topic applies to. I've broadened the topic title to include MMOGs. Secondly, I'll just list some sites that I've either come across previously, or are featured prominently in Google results: Online Free Gaming, Blitz Gamer, Massive Online Gaming, Online Multiplayer Games Network, Business Week Gameroom, Multiplayer Online Games Directory. What do you think of these? The Business Week site seems like a good source. Massive Online Gaming is a print magazine. The directory-type sites seem to be quite common; they've sort of become the stereotypical online gaming site in my mind—they're the main reason why I'm doubtful there are any good sites covering the subject matter. SharkD (talk) 18:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd dump the first two on your list. They're aggregation sites. Businessweek would get high regard as just based on their name I would imagine they have an editorial standard. mogonline.com would come next as they publish strategy guides and appear to be doing industry news as well. The other sites look like portals with basic news feeds, not sure how I would qualify them from a cursory glance. I'll see if I can recommend some others for you in light of your expanding this to cover MMOGs.BcRIPster (talk) 19:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
MPOGD isn't really any better than game ogre, they just dump links to video games and push advertising. I find Game Tunnel helpful for citing indie games, particularly casual ones. They have annual viewer-voted awards for the games they've covered with write-ups, and when the game developers receive them they seem extremely happy to display them on their sites. Jay Is Games provide actual articles instead of just links, and again hold contests of their own (I've seen numerous mentions of this site around the web, it's held in high regard). One good example from there is this article about a period costume drama bitch-slapping game I read about on Kotaku. Any number of sites will mention it or offer it for download, but to actually come across something worth citing.. We've got Kotaku themselves of course, who can deal with various obscure games of all kinds. Gamezebo is a nice site with lots of casual game reviews, they also host the Zeeby awards. Casual gaming's become big business, and whereas Xbox magazines may offer one short paragraph on an XBLA game, there's every chance one of these has an entire review dedicated to whatever it is, to back it up. Someone another (talk) 10:13, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I notice GameRankings isn't on the list, is there a reason for that? There's also two good adventure-game specific sites, Adventure Gamers and Just Adventure. Someone another (talk) 13:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
The list is incomplete. Feel free to add whatever you want. User:Krator (t c) 13:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
OK, I didn't want to slap more in if there was a reason, I'll add the above three but I'd like to hear what others think before adding Game Tunnel and Jay Is Games. Someone another (talk) 15:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Self-published sources

I know that game manuals are commonly cited for information on game mechanics, rules, fiction, etc. Could you clarify the position on use of self-published online resources, such as wikis, online manuals, self-published "news" sites, etc.? My concern is that they in part act as a sort of advertisement for the game they're covering, as well as the community surrounding them. I know that paper game manuals often feature advertisements in them; so this issue is not necessarily limited to online sites. The issue is discussed in part here. I was directed to WP:SELFPUB, and it handles the subject, but I thought it was kind of vague. It also doesn't cite any actual examples. SharkD (talk) 18:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The golden rule is that self published sources may only be used in two instances.
  1. When the author is an expert discussing his field of expertise, material he has self published is acceptable. For example, a past case I've seen discussed a "letter to the editor" of a newspaper by a Harvard professor. That is acceptable. For video game related issues, I would not hesitate to use Chris Taylor (game designer)'s blog as a source for commentary on any RTS game. He sadly has no blog I know of, though.
  2. In articles about themselves. For example, the Supreme Commander manual can be used in Supreme Commander.
The above two are exclusive, as in, there is generally no other exception to the rule. User:Krator (t c) 10:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Of course, what are the criteria for being an expert in a field where there are no peer-reviewed journals?
Personally, I've always thought there should be an additional "exception" that isn't really an exception. WP:SPS applies to use of the SPS as a secondary source, although it doesn't actually say so anywhere. It seems to me that there is nothing wrong with using it as a primary source in any article (e.g. "The Supreme Commander manual says X about this topic" in that topic's article, perhaps in a discussion of common misperceptions or fictionalizations of the topic) subject to the normal restriction that the statement it is being used for is relevant to the topic (e.g. "Is that relevant information or useless trivia?" But this applies whether we're citing the manual or some RSS that mentions the manual's information).
In reply to the original question, note that a forum or open wiki is not likely to fall under instance #2, as they're "published" by the collaboration of many unassociated authors. Instance #1 could apply to an individual post or diff depending on the author, or instance #2 could apply to a wiki which only certain strictly-authorized people can edit. Anomie⚔ 13:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's another question: does the overuse of self-published sources (as in, well over half the sources; especially online self-published sources that link to subscription/membership/purchasing forms) constitute advertisement-like language? The way I see it, overuse of self-published sources lends an aura of notability to those sources which may or may not be justified. Additionally, those sources make the subject of the article look more notable through their affiliation with the subject (i.e., it appears as if the article is saying, "Look at us, we have a notable source on our side/in our ranks; that makes us even more significant"). SharkD (talk) 05:52, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IDG Entertainment

I was wondering what your opinions were on the reliability of other gaming sites (other than GamePro) by IDG Entertainment:

  • Games.net
  • GamerHelp.com
  • GameProFamily.com
  • GameGirl.com
  • SucksOrRules.com

SharkD (talk) 08:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

GameProFamily is a great little site which offers a very specific niche, I'd be quite happy to slap a reliable label on that one. GamerHelp didn't impress me much, at a glance it looks like poor man's GameFAQs. The FAQs posted are probably no less reliable than those on G-faqs, but why bother at all when there's slim chances of anything being unique to that site? Or have I missed the point? GameGirl seems to be little more than a social blog, regardless of IDG's affiliation, nothing on there struck me as something which wouldn't be covered in more depth by a more reliable source, seriously suggest leaving that one out. SucksOrRules seems to be a user-driven timewasting tool, not something which would ever be a source. Games.net looks OK... except they seem to have very little original content, the 'top ten' lists were good for a laugh, again it's probably something that not many would have a use for as a cite. Someone another (talk) 19:30, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MMOGChart.com

Is this site reliable? The BBC has cited some of the site's ratings in some of their reports. Just thought I'd ask. SharkD (talk) 04:10, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template:VG Reviews

I've noticed that some of the magazines listed in this template do not match the list found here which supposedly is the most reliable one (Cincinnati Enquirer, wtf?). Also, there were some concerns on the talk page there about people wantonly adding magazines/websites without discussion. I'm hoping to achieve some level of synchronization between these two pages. One other thing, perhaps CNET is overrepresented in the "aggregate sites" category? Both websites currently listed are owned by CNET. Perhaps adding GameStats (owned by IGN) for good measure? I have nothing against CNET, but NPOV concerns is all. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. I too am ambivalent about adding in newspapers in general, and all the game publications in particular. We should be striving for a selection of some of the most high profile, not every single one we can dredge up. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 22:43, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reliable Sources in Sega Mega Drive

Hi. I've been working on the Mega Drive article for a little while now, and sent it to peer review. The peer reviewer had a couple questions about two sources used extensively in the article, and said he was not sure himself if they were reliable sources or not. The first is source 10, at the url http://www.skillreactor.org/cgi-bin/index.pl?megadrv . While it appears to be someone's report on the Mega Drive with a personal touch, the person who wrote this information has sourced his report, making this a tertiary source. It has proved to be invaluable, and I hope it can be deemed reliable. The second source is source 12, http://www.consoledatabase.com/consoleinfo/segamegadrive/index.html . Console Database provided information that I was unable to source otherwise, and I believe it is reliable. However, the reviewer suggested I ask here to be sure. Thanks for your time. Red Phoenix (Talk) 23:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

  • I will only comment on the second article as that is the one I have read. While the article does have some factual information spread throughout it, it is also heavily weighted with personal opinion about company motives and personal opinion about market events that have little substance. I would reference this second piece with a grain of salt and only use it as an article to give you some ideas that you can use to track down more accurate historical references.BcRIPster (talk) 23:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why is "blogs" a useful category for the list of sources? Why do we have categories anyway?

As title. User:Krator (t c) 14:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a better question—why should we consider a blog reliable? Pagrashtak 15:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
If it's an official blog run by a game making/publishing company, I can see it as being reliable. Otherwise, I can't really think of a case where a blog would count as reliable. --Eruhildo (talk) 18:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Blogs are never a "useful" source in and of themselves. A blog can be a way a compny makes an official site work, but that would be the extent of it. Seems this needs some cleaning up here. 2005 (talk) 20:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the Blogs section. Not to say that you'll never find anything reliable there, but I don't think we can imply any sort of across-the-board reliability for them. Pagrashtak 21:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I had a talk with Ealdgyth about blogs such as Kotaku and Joystiq and he basically came to the point that we have to prove that each writer we use in those sources can be considered reliable. It's not hard, actually; I found that my writers had also been in Gizmodo and The Escapist, but it means we can't *always* rely on them. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 21:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I would consider a developer's official "blog" as a reasonably reliable source, especially for details on the development of the game. By official, I mean one that is hosted on the company's website and is by a member of the developement team. Well known technical blogs, they will need to been seen on a case by case basis, mainly because you need to establish that the author of that particular blog is reliable. It also depends on what you are trying to source to the blog. Something not too controversial, by a well known games writer, on a well regarded blog site (like Joystiq, say), would probably pass muster. Something by an unknown writer, stating some claim that is pretty farfetched, on an unknown blog site would probably not pass muster. I'm not really that mean and nasty about sources, I promise. Luckily, video games aren't often subject to BLP concerns. And, by the way, I'm female. (grins). Ealdgyth - Talk 22:40, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree, that's what I was basically trying to say, but your wording is better. --Eruhildo (talk) 15:55, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with removing the blogs category, they're just websites who use that format rather than personal blogs, but aren't we past the point of hanging question marks over Kotaku and Joystiq? They're well established sites reporting on video games rather than the nesting habits of rare birds from the rain forest. Game Set Watch is run and written by staff from Gamasutra and a developer's magazine - not only is it reliable but it is useful in covering some more obscure topics, there's an entire column devoted to roguelikes for instance. Someoneanother 06:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

How did this turn to a section discussing the reliability of well established websites who just happen to use a particular technology? My initial post was to question the sorting of websites into a category "blogs", because you wouldn't really need to look up sites under "blogs", because there's no information that specifically appears in "blogs". User:Krator (t c) 15:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I added the "blogs" category because I wanted to give people the heads up about them being blogs. One should be cautious with blogs becuase they tend to have a more informal tone which is at odds with the objective tone expected of truly professional journalists. SharkD (talk) 03:42, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
That's a joke right?BcRIPster (talk) 05:13, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Set this up and knock it down

Ok, here's my proposal:

  • We thoroughly clean the decks of this page and get verifiable lists of how these pages are notable; if they are only notable in some cases, we put these caveats down.
  • We then sync this list to {{VG Reviews}} and remove all the (gaming) publications we determine are not notable. Thoughts? --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 21:48, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Agreed. --MASEM 22:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Agreed. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Sounds good to me! Fin©™ 15:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Confused. Why is notability relevant here? User:Krator (t c) 10:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Now a bit confused too. Notable or reliable? There's been discussion of that here too. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I mean notable, which I believe should be the threshold for those reviews we put in {{VG Reviews}}. Reliability does come into play, but I think to serve both purposes we should focus on proving the reliability of the source here, and then deciding whether it is notable enough to go with the reviews template (ideally, they will satisfy both.) As noted on WT:VG about the review sites (link above), The NYT and other newspapers are reliable, but I don't think we should clog up the reviews template with print sources which are not exclusively or strongly tied to games themselves. The less links in the template, the easier it is to use and if we establish a good criterion, there won't be a pile-on to add sources. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 15:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Some investigations
  • Shacknews is as long-lived as GameSpot or IGN. Its editorial staff are paid professionals ,[2] and are experienced in the gaming industry.[3]
  • The Adrenaline Vault (Avault) used to be one of the premier gaming sites but slowly died due to an internal conflict.[4] It has recently been resurrected and is small scale. The current staff are volunteers,[5] and some of its news are sourced from other major news sources.[6] Some of its staff such as Bob Mandel, have been heavily involved with the games industry for years. It can possibly be used for reviews and features but I am uncertain on its usage for news (perhaps older archives from its heydays could be considered reliable for old games?).
  • Voodoo Extreme used to be an independent site heavily focused on games using the Voodoo graphic cards. It is now, however, part of IGN.com.[7]
Certain concerns
  • Yahoo games are basically a regurgitation of GameSpot. Pointless to use them when GameSpot can serve the purpose.
  • GameFAQs are certainly not reliable. If there are claims of GameSpot using them as sources for release data, then quote GameSpot as the source. Jappalang (talk) 12:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Re The Adrenaline Vault, I tried a link at [8]] to an Avault news announcement, and got a 404. I used to like Avault a lot, but have been unable to get anything good and usually unable to get anything at all from it for about a year. We might have to go to webarchive for pre-catastrophe Avault content. Philcha (talk) 13:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok, my plan is for the clearly notable ones, put the information regarding reliability and notability into a ref as justification. Depending on what happens at the Halo (series) FAC, we might add justification for the GameCritics one. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 14:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I was going to suggest a four column table: Source name, general type of info found, any stipulations/limitations on how used as a ref, and justification w/ references. Having the justification out of the footnotes seems to be perfectly appropriate for a page that discusses sources. --MASEM 14:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good to me, could you change it? (I suck with wiki-markup and would just spend twenty edits tweaking it properly.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 14:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Boldly added TLeaves.com

A few people have tried to start this discussion on the video games wikiproject talk page, but to no avail. I've boldly added it, and I'm willing to go to bat for it. Here's a link, for anyone concerned: Tea Leaves. Looking forward to any discussion. Randomran (talk) 20:41, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It looks like a blog, so how is the author a shown expert in the fields of video gaming? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 15:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I thought I'd already explained why I'd regard Tea Leaves as a reliable source. Oh, well:
PS I've restored Tea Leaves to the RS list. Philcha (talk) 17:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Here's what I suggest. Ealdgyth is basically FAC's source-checker. Leave him a note on his talk page pointing him to the web site and giving him the rationale you described above; see what he says. Then, if he gives a green light, I'll summarize up the findings and put it in the sources page. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 18:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
First, I'm a she (grins). Yes, that mythical "female who games". That's one reason David picks me for this stuff, since I didn't go "What's IGN? What's Game Informer?" That said, I'm not convinced by the above. To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. I'm not seeing anything given above that shows that. Note that for reviews, I'm not very picky, especially if you go with the cheaters method (as I like to call it) of saying in the article "So-and-so from Review-Site-A said in a review of the game that "quote from review"" which nicely gives attribution without needing to show reliablity. It's giving an opinion, so you don't need to worry about the reliablity, with one caveat that you must be citing to the site that gave/hosts/published the review. Going to Amazon and culling out a blurb from the product page doesn't give the full context of the review. Note that this also applies to the next section below too. As a general rule, blogs, unless they are "official game development blogs" won't pass muster. Remember that when the article makes FA, it will eventually go on the main page. When it's on the main page, it will garner criticism, and video games seem to garner more than their fair share, so having your sourcing be excellent helps insulate you from critics. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Grrl Gamer!
Your "It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated" is the key point, with which I totally agree. As often the devil is in the details methods:
  • IMO sites' statements about QA methods are of little value. I'm a retired computer consultant, and I've seen too many organisations that mess up projects despite having impressive standards libraries. The most usual reason is political pressures to shorten project schedules or otherwise make the results politically acceptable to the management. These pressures are also significant at big name mags, see MTV Multiplayer » Reviews Week and Why No Lester Bangs of Gaming? (especially page 2). For example IGN's MoO2 retroview contains 2 serious errors in one paragraph, and they undermine the article's comments on a very important aspect of Master of Orion II.
  • I'm not at all convinced by "backed by a media company/university/institute". It seems that in the last 40 years or so any crank can set up a "university", and setting up an "institute" or media company is even easier. IMO "backed by a media company/university/institute" is a circular argument, because it begs the question "How do we know the media company/university/institute is reliable?"
  • In the free world long-established universities and those set up with government backing are generally regarded as reliable (universities elsewhere are usually reliable on subjects that have no religious or political implications), but only because centuries of experience have shown that their output is good. Academic publications have a QA process, peer review, but that is not infallible - for example Cyril Burt got published, there have been other cases of Scientific misconduct discovered after publication, and further cases where published articles have been condemned because of failure to provide access to raw data or because it turned out that the raw data did not support the articles' theses (for a fairly recent example see Permian–Triassic extinction event#Impact_event). Even for these august institutions the ultimate criterion is whether the articles / books stand up to prolonged critical examination by outsiders.
  • Articles in big name mags are in general not peer-reviewed. In the gaming world the nearest things I've seen to peer review are:
  • "official game development blogs" are not an intrinsically reliable source, as they are a form of advertising and therefore not Wikipedia:Independent sources. They can be useful on some issues (e.g. what earlier games have had an influence), but are unreliable on anything to do with the quality of the publisher's games - an outstanding example of this is the official Master of Orion 3 site, which produced many interesting articles / diary entries / etc. but the product was a turkey.
  • The hard truth is that there's no such thing as a 100% guaranteed-in-advance reliable source - one always has to look for issues on which the author and / or publisher might have a POV for whatever reasons, and one always has to take account of the known strengths and weaknesses of the author. I've come across several examples of variably-reliable sources recently while editing articles on top chess players, but I won't bore you with them unless you absolutely beg ask me to.
  • As far as I can see articles from the various self-published sources I've mentioned are free from the POV, political and schedule pressures that can cause trouble in big name publications. And so far I've seen in self-published video game articles no examples of the proverbial odium schaccisticum that quite often distorts articles on chess from "reputable" sources.
  • Returning (at last!) to the main point, the best source for a "reputation for reliability" is the attitudes of recognised experts writing in POV-free outlets. For that reason if someone like Soren Johnson or Troy Goodfellow treats a source with respect, that's good enough for me. Yes, that's a circular argument - but reliability of sources is always circular, and at least in this instance it's a very tight circle with minimal room for the distortions I've described.
    Grrrouch Gamer Philcha (talk) 09:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
One question: Who are the authors of Tea Leaves? In other words, who are "peterb" and "psu"? If their names are unknown, how can anyone vouch for their credentials? In fact, what are their credentials as reliable sources of video game information? Who judged them and openly stated so?
Game developers and reviewers have the same amount of equal rights as anyone in posting on whichever forum/site they choose to. Just because they post on a certain site does not make that site an acknowledged site for reliable information. Neogaf has many reviewers and developers from established gaming sites and companies posting on it. That does not make the Neogaf forums a reliable place to get information. Developers and reviewers are just like normal people who post in whichever environment that made them feel comfortable or valued. Jappalang (talk) 12:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I should also point out that we do not need our sources to be peer reviewed, but we do want editorial oversight. They are two different things. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 14:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Re "credentials" AFAIK one does not need a PhD in the theory of games or UIs or whatever to be a game designer, programmer or journalist. What Jappalang is demanding that all reliable writers must be controlled by some "reputable" institution. That is exactly the same as what Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs has just said.
Unfortunately the institutions are not performing particularly well, and the "editorial control" that Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs considers so vital appears to be part of the problem. - see MTV Multiplayer » Reviews Week and Why No Lester Bangs of Gaming?. I'm not even sure if either Jappalang or Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs either of these. So here's a little test: what's the most serious of the problems described in Why No Lester Bangs of Gaming?
Who are the individuals who exercise "editorial control" over each of the big name mags, and what are their credentials? I've just looked at a random sample (the first few cited in randomly chosen Wikipedia games articles), and have not been able to find this information on the mags' web sites. The only place where I found a games mag editor's name was at Sex, Fame and PC Baangs: How the Orient plays host to PC gaming’s strangest culture - and that is a self-published games blog! According to your arguments that is not a reliable source, so we don't reliably know the name of PC Gamer UK's editor. And of course when PC Gamer UK changes editors, we will be back to the usual situation of not knowing the editor's name or credentials. Gentlemen, your criteria just shot themselves in the foot. Philcha (talk) 20:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
What are you talking about? I asked simple questions, looking for simple answers. Just answer them. Who are "peterb" and "psu"? Who called them experts in the gaming industry? Jappalang (talk) 15:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other self-published sources that are worthy of respect

As respected journalists/et al that meet WP:SPS are the exception rather than the rule, however, we should probably leave most of them off this list, as they will have to be justified on an article-by-article basis regardless. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 18:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
WP:SPS says, "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." That would seem to include Troy Goodfellow, Soren Johnson and Trent Polack.
"in some circumstances" (WP:SPS) is regrettably unspecific, and I suggest should include where there is good reason to doubt the reliability of the big names - see Why No Lester Bangs of Gaming? and MTV Multiplayer » Reviews Week for the reasons, and MoO2 retroview for an example.
In fact the wholde idea of "reliable third-party publications" is a case of circular reasoning - what are the criteria for deciding what is a "reliable third-party publication"?
As for the other sites on the list, if they're good enogh for Troy Goodfellow and Soren Johnson they're good enough for me. Philcha (talk) 19:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd be cautious against what people cite on their blogs. A lot of the time people just include links for the sake of links, or simply want to reflect on someone else's opinion: which may be interesting yet unreliable or uninformed. That said, I support the addition of a few of these experts, particularly Soren Johnson. Randomran (talk) 23:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I included links so that others could check what the citations said - they are certainly not "links for the sake of links", and certainly do not treat the cited pages as "interesting yet unreliable or uninformed".
Johnson's citation of BoardGameGeek says, "... the Risk franchise has been undergoing a bit of a renaissance lately, based on some spin-offs with surprisingly high BoardGameGeek ratings" - in other words Johnson thinks highly enough of BoardGameGeek's ratings to link to 2 of them in as many words, and expects his readers to understand this.
Troy Goodfellow's page criticises one point in Trent Polack's "A Glimpse into Modern Real-Time Strategy (part 1)" but concludes "As a history, it is quite good so far." Goodfellow's comments on part 2 of Polack's history states that he partly agrees with and partly disagrees with Polack on the games in question. AFAIK that's fairly common when people discuss the boundaries of (sub-)genres, and Goodfellow's "since they are, to my mind, simply wargames with some RTS interface" indicates that these points are matters of opinion, on which he respectfully begs to differ with Polack. (PS: This time I linked to part 1, as Goodfellow did in his first entry; previously I linked to part 4 because, as usual with series, the last part has the links to all previous parts.)
Troy Goodfellow's page says "spotted at Tacticular Cancer" - implying that he finds Tacticular Cancer worth watching.
For another sample of Tacticular Cancer's work, try Lost Empire Review. Don't be fooled by the artless writing style (for all I know it might be fashionable right now; I've just seen an episode of Britain's Next Top Model in which a major designer was talking like a Jamaican - hey, mon, it de faashun). Note the game version number at the top left (has the reviewer experienced Simtex games?), the often amusing way in which the review makes you experience the game through the reviewer's eyes, and the link to a technical article about an algorithm the game's designers should have used for a particular graphical effect. Not so artless after all. Philcha (talk) 01:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
One thing I should point out reading your posts above is just because someone reliable or whatnot cites it doesn't make the source cited reliable. For example, VGChartz is unreliable for units sold because it measures volume shipped, not actual sales; that doesn't stop publications like the New York Times from quoting it. Likewise, Wikipedia won't be a reliable source even when it's commonly used for at-a-glance items. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 18:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)