Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Thomas

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 WikiProject Thomas  (edit)
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Key discussions contained within:

  • Archive 1, created 10 Oct 2006.
    a complete list of all characters in Railway Series, TV Series, and movies.
  • Archive 2, created 06 Jun 2007.
    • 'Thomas' merchandising
    • Project Sidebar
    • Rationalisation proposals
  • Archive 3, created 24 Oct 2007.
    • Railway Series rebirth
    • More character rationalisation
    • Anti-Vandal Patrol
    • Categorising redirects


Contents

[edit] Project ToDo list

I've been keeping my eye out for how these are managed elsewhere.

Best one I've found is at WikiProject Trains. This utilises a custom variant of the {{todo}} box, called {{todo, trains}}. To see it in action, check out Talk:British Rail.

This box resides at top of a talk page, under the project banner, rather than in a side-bar. This has the benefit that longer sentences may be used!

EdJogg 15:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy with any format you can come up with. If I can see a way in which it can be improved, I'll be sure to say something :)
As for the contents of the "To Do list", I'll put below what's floating around in my mind as mental notes... (It's like a world full of Too Many Post-Its in there...)
General tasks
(Can be completed by any members of WP:THOMAS)
Higher tasks
(Can be completed by any member of WP:THOMAS who has a sound working knowledge of Wikipedia)
  • Creation of article Jack and the Pack, merging in all information from On Site with Thomas, which is to be then redirected, and links changed to reflect this
  • Fixing redirects - Check the "what links here" for articles (particularly major ones), and see if any pages link to the article via a redirect. If this is the case, open these articles and change the links so they link to the correct article.
  • Skarloey engines, Railway Series perspective. Complete edits as per project talk page.
Admin duties
(Can be completed by senior members of WP:THOMAS, who have both an excellent working knowledge of Wikipedia, and who have a strong record in useful edits, particularly large-scale)
  • Creation of a full list of articles - Bot generated?
  • Continued maintenance of Project page and its sub-pages
  • Exploring the "ratings system", in an attempt to get as many articles within WP:THOMAS' scope as possible to GA (Good Article) status, ideally one or two FAs (Featured Articles).
  • Re-assessment of major articles, for Wikipedia 1.0 (I haven't re-visited this since it was raised back in Archive 1!)
At this stage, I would reccommend only EdJogg, Mdcollins1984 and the Project Founders attempt admin duties, as these users have proven they have what is required for these tasks. I imagine *most* active members could attempt Higher Tasks. However, if you feel you could satisfactorily complete a task, regardless of its "level", then please feel free.
That's my 3½ cents anyway :)
Gonzerelli 06:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:THOMAS fair-use image crisis

There is a current WP-wide push towards the effective elimination of non-free images, especially from pages using multiple images. This has a potentially huge impact on the 'Thomas' pages, considering almost all the pictures are tagged as 'fair use'. So far, only List of Railway Series Books has been de-imaged (see its talk page for important initial discussions), but the bots are roaming about and delete-warning messages concerning screenshot images are already appearing on grouped-character talk pages.

I have posted a lengthy message at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#WikiProject Thomas and use of non-free images asking for formal guidance, as there is a potentially large workload to recover from this situation – too much for one person – and I don't want to waste what limited effort I can spare.

As I see it there are only three likely outcomes:

  1. Non-free images are not allowed on 'list' pages: Current pages remain as they are, but without images. (only tidying required)
  2. Non-free images ARE allowed on 'list' pages, but only in limited numbers: current character pages sub-divided into a greater number of smaller pages (lots of work, especially with redirects -- time for a bot!!)
  3. Non-free screenshots/book covers ARE allowed, but only one-per-page: character pages to be split up as per main characters (humungous amount of work)

It is a sad state of affairs, but I think that the first of these is the only really likely outcome, since to retain the existing set of images also requires the application of individual 'fair use rationales' to all of the images – and there's a lot of them.

Views on the sensible way forward are welcomed.

Regards -- EdJogg 12:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Update: This new policy has caused major waves – and not a little ill-feeling – within the WP community. You don't have to look far to find editors requesting reviews of the policy, guidance on what is allowed, how to write fair-use rationales, requests for leniency with delete timescales, etc, etc. Some of the discussions (including at the link above) are extremely heated, and they are going on in parallel in several places. It will take a while for the dust to settle, but, whatever the final decisions, there is a lot of work ahead for WP:THOMAS members.

The one thing we can say for certain is that there has been an effective paradigm-shift on the use of non-free images within WP. In future, screen-shots and book-cover scans need to meet WP:FUC and be covered by a 'Fair Use Rationale' (FUR). (To be fair, this has always been the case, it's just that it was not enforced in the past.) The FUR provides information to describe the image and its source, plus our reasoning (for each location it is used) why it is necessary to use a non-free image. This is mainly required for downstream users, so that they may determine whether their use of the image is legal.

I've had a brief chat with MDCollins, and the following is a start at determining some kind of plan to move the project forward.

EdJogg 17:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair-use Images: Plan of action

  1. Assign all images to an appropriate 'Thomas'-related image category. For example:
  2. Make downloaded copies of as many non-free images, in use by WP:THOMAS pages, as possible. This will allow restoration at a later date if appropriate.
    The following information must be noted or indicated as unavailable:
    • which pages they are used on
    • Image source (very important: where it came from) if known
    • userID of uploader
    • Other information, as available (please expand this list, as appropriate)
  3. Apply FURs to the images, starting with those for the individual character pages, since these are easiest to justify and hence safest. (They're only 'safe' once the FUR is in place, otherwise it would make sense to target the most threatened!)
  4. Ensure that appropriate 'critical commentary' of the image is in place within the article text (At present I am still not clear what this actually means!! [EdJogg])
  5. Work out what we do about the grouped character pages, bearing in mind that the use of multiple non-free images will not be tolerated. (Should get away with 2 or 3 on an individual character page though, provided they are otherwise acceptable.)

[edit] Useful pages


[edit] FU Image Crisis Plan: Comments

[edit] Where do we go from here?

At present I am thinking we will need to have a fairly serious rethink as to how the grouped pages are presented – that, or just accept that they will be clear of images. The following paragraphs list a few of my ideas, in no particular order...

  • As a good starting point, each of the Railway Series books can be given its own article. I know we were trying to avoid this, but I don't think we have much choice. The book cover images are the easiest to provide a FUR for, and there's no way that we can have the list article in its (former!) present form (ie with images). We will need to expand the coverage somewhat, including a plot summary for each story, but the Awdry's have provided us with much information in their books, and Christopher has even provided the inspiration for all of them in '...between the lines'. There's even scope for covering some of the characters on the same pages – I'm thinking mainly of those that appear in a single volume (Stepney, various Diesels) or minor-but-featured characters (such as Oliver, Duke, Mavis) if they cannot support an article of their own.
  • Skarloey Railway engines will need a new re-think. Having never properly grouped them, there is less work to do! Probably a good idea to create proper new pages for Duncan and Rusty, and link everything from the SR page. I think we can still get away with using the book covers for illustrations, but we will need to come up with some pretty good 'critical commentary' to justify it. It might be sufficient if each article has a section discussing the differences between the book and TV treatment (using the illustrations for reference), but I don't know whether that fits within WP policy.
  • Major characters: I think that any that could potentially support their own page (when book and TV coverage is combined) should do so, as this will make image use much easier to justify. I would suggest the following might be candidates: Oliver, Bill and Ben, Daisy, Mavis, Duke, BoCo (and others)
  • Railway Series Minor/Unfeatured character pages and the railway pages will not require a great deal of work, since these were never expected to use images in the first place. However, we might want to simplify/merge the major/minor pages since more of the information will have moved to individual pages again.
  • The TV Series has a much bigger problem. We cannot have multiple-image pages (period); we cannot obtain free-use images for them; most of the characters could not be developed sufficiently to stand on their own articles; almost none of the information can be verified (unless referenced to specific episodes -- but that's a whole other problem!). One solution would be to use photos of models – not ideal, but better than nothing.

The one thing we can say from this is that the coverage of the Railway Series will be much easier to move forward due to the wealth of 'reliable source' material we have to draw on. But I can see many more problems for the TV Series coverage in the future...

EdJogg 18:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Having just re-read the many comments at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content, there is an 'official' view that only the absolute minimum fair use content should be used in WP. This means: no album covers on album articles, for example, no book covers, and certainly no screenshots, etc. There is a lot of ill feeling about this, from other editors, but it is quite likely to be THE official view. If this policy remains unchallenged then the whole realm of WP:THOMAS will become image-less (apart from the maps). In which case there's not much point panicing now about trying to come up with FURs for the images as they'll all be shot down in flames in due course. It also means that much of what I wrote as 'suggested way forward', above, would be wasted effort.
Saving copies of the images may still be worthwhile though, especially if they may be copied to Train Spotting World in the future (not sure if they're allowed there either!).
At present, I am too busy at work to panic over this, and it may be best to let things run their course. When the dust has settled, we can take a new view of the situation.
Others' thoughts would be welcome...
EdJogg 00:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
If there prove to be insurmountable difficulties over this I can offer the services of Train Spotting World in the same manner that we did when rescuing the various deleted Thomas lists.
The caveat is that we do absolutely need a fair use rationale there, and we, too, will delete non free images that do not have the rationale. However, our processes are less "automatic" than here, and we let our admins loose with a good dollop of common sense rather than unleash bots that just go ahead and do things.
We have the space to do this, and the server horsepower to do this, so it is not an enormous task for us, if the consensus here suggests it is a good thing to do. We are a similar look and feel to WP, but funded by advertising revenues from the on page adverts rather than by donations. That is the sole difference users would see (apart from substantial additional facilities, that is). We work as an informal companion wiki on rail matters.
The offer is there. EdJogg is also one of our admins, and I will take my cue from him over what should happen, rather than checking back here for replies. My rationale is that I do not feel I should do more than make the offer in case it is perceived as spamming. Fiddle Faddle 10:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Discussions are continuing with Fiddle Faddle at TrainSpottingWorld (TSW). The current idea is to drag the entire realm of WP:THOMAS over to TSW, thus preserving its current form, with pictures, etc. The future shape of WP:THOMAS at WP would then be discussed with project members, but would, for example, allow further tightening-up of the detail provided for the TV series characters.
Other members' thoughts welcome! (Otherwise I shall have to determine a concensus on my own!)
EdJogg 13:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I think EdJogg and I forgot to mention that he organised that we took a snapshot of a load of pages with their attendant images and placed them here (well, linked from there, anyway. This means that they are, where they contain POV or OR, safe from the valid WP actions or serious editing. We do also have the same policy of needing Fair Use Rationales for non free images, but are somewhat gentler in our application of policy (our admins do this manually, no bots are involved), though no less rigorous (copyright is a serious issue, after all, and breaking it, especially with intent, is unlawful). Fiddle Faddle 06:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
The snapshot sent to Train-Spotting World was done mid-June, but included an earlier snapshot of the 'List of Railway Series books' page, complete with images. Almost all images were transferred across, and so may be retrieved for re-inclusion on WP, if required, provided a suitable Fair Use Rationale (FUR) can be provided.
On that same subject, several (new) project members have been making valiant attempts to add a sort-of FUR to the screenshot images. Time will tell whether the FUR is acceptable by WP standards, but it should be sufficient to avoid speedy deletion.
EdJogg 11:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Content for Skarloey Engine Pages

I've noticed that the five Narrow Gauge engine pages (Skarloey, Rheneas, Sir Handel, Peter Sam, and Rusty the Diesel) have been left with some thrown together info from The Railway Series. They were left without even one image (minus the Rusty page, which retains a picture of the large-scale model).

Seeing as the pages for Thomas, Gordon, Toby etc. have combined details from the TV series and books, and since these NG characters are just as important (these engines have existed about as long as the Steam Team ones have), I figured that the pages should have more than RWS information. After all, that's the original reason we had them. Otherwise, we could simply merge the pages into the RWS character page.

These are important characters that have survived the test of time, and I think they deserve to share their history with Wikipedia. I propose that the following tasks be re-instated:

  • Create a page titled Duncan (Thomas the Tank Engine), matching the other old NG characters, and the title we used for Emily.
  • Add the images used on the page Railway engines (Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends)#Narrow Gauge Engines. There are good quality and correctly depict the characters as they look today.
  • Add summaries of the histories in the show. Perhaps we should write it not based on how the RWS originally told it, but how the TV crew altered it. And since the pages describe some adventures from the RWS, it would seem appropriate to do the same for the recent plots of their TV counterparts.

I'd be willing to begin the assignment post-haste, and keep the page top-quality. The pages can be prone to vandalism, but I check the pages at least once a day. With that said, I think it's safe to upgrade the pages. Do you?

--Rusty5 00:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I think I'm reasonably happy with your proposals. The only thing I would say is that the articles should follow a similar pattern to the other major characters, ie, start off with character/story from RWS and then have a separate section describing the TV Series and the differences. How ever long the TV series goes on for, these characters appeared first in the books...
There's more rationalisation needed, I think, but it's a long time since I looked at the issues involved.
What is the status of the Fair-Use Rationales for the images you want to use? You will probably need to update them alongside your other changes.
EdJogg 07:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

It was also recently recommended that the NG engine summaries on Railway engines (Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends) be split into a separate article called [[Narrow gauge engines (Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends). That way, Bertram, Smudger and Proteus could be transferred there as well, making a page for only that range of characters. --Rusty5 18:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Umm, I think I suggested that! Not sure where the discussion has got to though.
(BTW -- I am on WikiBreak at the Great Dorset Steam Fair until the weekend, so won't be able to offer any opinions for a few days.)
EdJogg 07:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

We shouldn't make a pointless page on a character like Mighty Mac. After all, he's a brand new character (when I say new, I mean not enough appearances.) So it needs to be a MAJOR character. Keep watch, dudes.--S.C.Ruffeyfan 16:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images scheduled for deletion

Earlier this year, when the furore over fair-use images erupted, I added the bulk of the 'Thomas' screenshots to my watchlist. Since then, nothing much has happened...until now.

Someone has spotted that certain 'Thomas' images do not meet WP requirements, and have flagged them as such. Images flagged in this way may be deleted (automatically?) after seven days if no action is taken. WP is quite strict on this, and hence the 'Thomas & Friends' pages may lose all their screenshots if urgent action is not taken very soon.

The following images (at least) have been flagged as having no Fair Use Rationale:

  • Image:AlfieExcavator.jpg
  • Image:AnnieandClarabel.jpg
  • Image:Bertie3.jpg
  • Image:Bertramtheoldwarrior.jpg
  • Image:Brakevan Toad.jpg
  • Image:Breakdown Train.jpg
  • Image:BryonTTTE.jpg
  • Image:Bulgybus.jpg
  • Image:Bulstrodebarge.jpg
  • Image:BusterTTTE.jpg
  • Image:Butchtowtruck.jpg
  • Image:Calling All Engines.jpg
  • Image:Carolinecar.jpg
  • Image:CityoftruroTTTE.jpg
  • Image:CrankyCrane.jpg
  • Image:Diesel10.jpg
  • Image:Emily's New Coaches.jpg
  • Image:Georgesteamroller.jpg
  • Image:HaroldHelicopter.jpg
  • Image:HenriettaCoach.jpg
  • Image:HorridLorries.jpg
  • Image:IsabellaTTTE.jpg
  • Image:JackFrontLoader.jpg
  • Image:Jeremiah Jobling.JPG
  • Image:Jeremy.jpg ("this is a possibly unfree image")
  • Image:Jet Engine TTTE2.jpg
  • Image:KellyTTTE.JPG
  • Image:LadyTATMR.jpg
  • Image:Miss Jenny.jpg
  • Image:Mrs Kyndley.jpg
  • Image:NedTTTE.jpg
  • Image:NelsonTransporter.jpg
  • Image:Oldslowcoach.jpg
  • Image:OliverExcavator.jpg
  • Image:PatrickTTTE.jpg
  • Image:ProteusTTTE.jpg
  • Image:Scruffey.jpg
  • Image:Splatteranddodge.jpg
  • Image:TerenceTractor.jpg
  • Image:Thediesel261.jpg
  • Image:ThumperDriller.jpg
  • Image:TigerMothTTTEAF.jpg
  • Image:TrevorTraction.jpg
  • Image:TrevorTraction.jpg
  • Image:TroublesomeTrucks.jpg

I must stress that this list only includes images that were used on the 'Thomas' pages on some specific day in June. Any which have been added since, or those I haven't seen -- and hence are not on my watchlist -- may also be targetted for deletion.

Project members familiar with (and, dare I say, 'passionate about') the TV Series need to address these issues, in accordance with the appropriate WP policies and guidelines, as a matter of some urgency. (I'm afraid that I cannot help with this task, although I can offer pointers towards official guidance if help is requested.)

Guidance for writing a Fair Use Rationale may be found at Talk:Non-rail vehicles (Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends)#Pictures. Hopefully this will be sufficient to comply with the WP policies, but it may be necessary to add additional information, specific to the character, to ensure that the FUR's are seen to be different and not just duplicated.

Good luck! EdJogg 10:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed deletions (PROD and AFD)

--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 10:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
updated --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Thomas and friends video - release by AfD today Fiddle Faddle 23:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Well done Fiddle Faddle. S.C.Ruffeyfan--17:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC) 17:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Up and coming T&F releases

We have a problem, people. Now S11 is almost over, spammers will start to make up junk and rubbish stuff. All sorts of 'characters' like 'Cosmo the Sonic Engine' and fake info on The Great Discovery like 'The Mountain Engines make an appearance' or 'Thomas's driver's name is Fred Roberts' could appear. So keep your eyes peeled! S.C.Ruffeyfan 14:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of images on 'Thomas' pages

All the screenshot images have now been removed from the combined-character pages. This is exactly as I predicted a few months ago (see WP:THOMAS fair-use image crisis above).

As is explained at User:Durin/Fair use overuse explanation, this deletion is entirely in keeping with WP policies, and is really not worth contesting. Individual character pages, however, may be alright...

The question is, what, if anything, are we going to do about this?

NOTE: The pages, as they were in June 2007, were rescued -- images and all -- to the companion wiki: Train Spotting World, where there is a growing group of enthusiastic editors, er, 'looking after them'. So, in one sense, it does not matter if the pictures are absent from the WP pages.

Thoughts, please?

EdJogg 12:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I think we should bring the images back. S.C.Ruffeyfan 11:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
You are completely missing the point. As explained on the link above, screenshot images may not be used on multi-character pages. Single-character pages might be OK, but only if they have a suitable FUR.
EdJogg 01:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

OK.--S.C.Ruffeyfan 16:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

We could show links to a picture of a character. It means that I'll need a lot of help. --S.C.Ruffeyfan 11:35, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rumour

In my sandbox, someone said Thomas was cancelled in 2002. Is that so?--S.C.Ruffeyfan 16:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lists of 'Thomas' Videos - DO NOT CREATE!!

Please do not even consider thinking about creating lists of the videos of 'Thomas' episodes that have been released.
Such pages are not appreciated here at WP.
If you don't believe me, follow these links to see what other editors think...

Be warned, I will not hesitate to support the deletion of similar unverifiable lists of Thomas videos and merchandise.

EdJogg 00:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:The Great Discovery

Should I add a template saying the talk page for TGD is within the scope of the project--S.C.Ruffeyfan 17:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Certainly. Any pages that directly relate to TtTE&F/The Railway Series should be noted. They should also be included on the page of links (see somewhere else on this talk page for a link to it). However, any Fan Fiction pages should be highlighted for deletion.
EdJogg 17:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I've done it now --S.C.Ruffeyfan 11:33, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section headings==

A large number of pages on the lists of characters seem to be using =H1= styles rather than starting with ==H2==. This is contrary to the advice at Wikipedia:Section#Creation_and_numbering_of_sections and Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Section_headings etc., and the pattern of use elsewhere in Wikipedia. I have changed a couple, but got tired [1] [2] --Rumping (talk) 00:12, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A new wiki specially for Trains...

Hello readers of WikiProject Thomas!

I just wondered if any of you would be interested in joining up to Train Spotting World, a wiki just for railways and similar things! We are also in the process of setting up several "Workforces", similar to WikiProjects, and were wondering if anyone wnated to help!

Various wikipedians have goine over there, including myself, User:Tbo 157, User:Slambo, User:EdJogg, User:Timtrent and User:S.C.Ruffeyfan.

If you want more info, or have joined up and want some guidance, let me know here or there on my talk page!

Thanks, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluegoblin7 (talk • contribs) 19:52, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Articles in need of sources

All of the Thomas and Friends season lists are unsourced. This means there is no way for readers to verify the information they contain. It also means that it is very hard to distinguish valid edits from vandalism and erroneous additions. I have tagged all the articles from Thomas and Friends - Season 1 through to Thomas and Friends - Season 12 as unsourced. Could members of the project please start citing proper sources for these. Unsourced information in articles can and will be deleted, so these articles are at risk. Thanks, Gwernol 22:43, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

This is something I've been asking for all along. I guess that most of the information is gleaned directly from the programmes concerned. Obviously, this makes it difficult for non-fans to verify, and it's also the reason that I don't get involved with these pages!
How are other television programme episode articles sourced?
EdJogg (talk) 00:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)