Wikipedia talk:WikiProject The Beatles/Archive 14

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[edit] Behind the scenes

I am angry at discovering certain comments by an editor that falsely accuses me of saying "I won". That is absolute shite, and a classic case of misquoting my comment, and/or reading something into it that was not there. The editor concerned knows who he is, so I will not mention his name.

To put the record straight, I actually said, "...I will drink a pint to you, and salute you. We not only pulled a pint, we pulled it off. Have one on me... The thing about 'The thing' is over, at last. I'm so happy I could buy a round. Cheers, La." (meaning that there was an end to the whole mess, and I could get back to working on articles).The full message is here...

Is that all the concerned editor could find to incriminate me? Oh, how he must have searched... I despair. I seriously doubt that an apology will be forthcoming, but one can only live in hope. andreasegde 21:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

The editor in question can speak for himself, but I think it's worth noting that his post included a link to the actual comments so people could easily read the post in question and draw their own conclusions. For what it's worth, I interpreted it as he did, the "We pulled it off" part in particular. John Cardinal 21:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Water under the bridge. Please, let's draw a line under this and get back to work. (Don't reply to this unless you disagree, please). --kingboyk 22:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. "Thanks Athens: you pulled it off…. So it was in Athens, which for a fortnight managed, at least temporarily, to distract the people of the world from their worries, possibly even their politics, their wars, their natural disasters." Thanks Athens: you pulled it off andreasegde 22:47, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The reason we are here

The status board: I find a certain pleasure can be gained from this. Cynthia Lennon is next, and then Astrid Kirchherr. andreasegde 00:58, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bass that should not be there

If you look at the photo of Sutcliffe and Harrison on the Stuart Sutcliffe page (spotted by Vera, Chuck & Dave) you will see a left-handed Hofner bass by Sutcliffes's leg, on the left. How is that possible when Macca started playing bass after Sutcliffe left?? Something is amiss here, methinks...andreasegde 14:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Is this the guitar partly obscured by a bottle? It does look like a Hofner type from the scratchplate, but I cannot distinguish if it is a bass or not. However, I counted the strings on the guitar that Sutcliffe is playing (and compared it to the other image on the page which shows some of the tuning pegs) and that is most certainly a bass.
If memory serves, the violin type bass that McCartney used was not originally set up for left hand. Although the shape allowed it to be played either hand (once the strings were re-arranged) the control knobs would be different. I recall reading that this ability to alter settings whilst playing (as Jimi Hendrix later did with his Strat) allowed McCartney to use it in a more melodic style than was usual at the time. You have the books, so perhaps you can check if Macca used a left handed model or adapted a righty from any pictures by looking at the pots. Lastly, Hofner is a German make of guitar and the Hamburg pic may simply show some-one elses bass, it would have been a common instrument for the time and place. LessHeard vanU 22:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Ah, but how many left-handed bass players were there in Hamburg at the time? andreasegde 10:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

According to Lewisohn and other sources, Stu occasionally sat in with the group after Paul took over on bass. Paul's bass would have been strung left-handed and therefore useless for Stu; it stands to reason that when Stu sat in, he brought his own bass. Raymond Arritt 22:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Very strange. Bill Harry says that Stu left the group in December 1961 and he stayed in Hamburg. Harry then says that Stu played some further gigs with them when they returned, but he says that happened in "March 1961" [my emphasis]. Perhaps that's an error, and should be 1962. In any case, if Stuart sat in after McCartney started playing bass, that could explain the presence of the Hofner... John Cardinal 22:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
But the leather jacket and jeans match the "1960 look" though - and didn't George have his hair combed forward by 1962? Vera, Chuck & Dave 23:30, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The pic is from their second engagement at the Top Ten Club, i.e. sometime during April-June 1961. Stu effectively left the group midway through this Top Ten run. In the pic George is still playing his Futurama instead of the Gretsch DuoJet he bought that summer after they returned to Liverpool. Raymond Arritt 23:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
  • The photo of the bass behind the coke bottle was taken by Peter Bruchmann at the Star Club in 1960 (as it says in the Spitz book).
  • Is there any photo anywhere of Macca playing a right-handed Hofner bass? (Upside-down of course.) I've never seen one. You will win £5 from Crestville if you find one. :)andreasegde 10:11, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I have looked on the net, and I have only seen Macca with one with a scratchguard and one without, but both are left-handed. Macca would never sell anything, so I was surprised to see a left-handed one that had been sold for 29,000 dollars. Hmmm...andreasegde 10:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Lewisohn's "Chronicles" says the photo is from the Star Club 1961 engagement. But what clinches it is that the bass in the pic has the pickguard in the left-handed position. Raymond Arritt 16:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Does that mean that McCartney bought the bass and then Sutcliffe sat in on the gig? Does it mean that McCartney always had a left-handed bass, which would mean an end to the "right-handed bass that he turned around" story? This could sort out a lot of stuff. I thank you very much for your answer, BTW. :)andreasegde 16:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure where the "right-handed bass that he turned around" story started, but anyone who plays (or is familiar with) bass can tell it's very obviously wrong. Not only is the pickguard in the left-handed position, but the control plate with the switches and volume knobs is in the left-handed position as can be seen in pictures from the era such as these. To switch the bass around he would have had to remove the controls, expertly patch over the hole where they had been, rout a new hole for the control plate, and reinstall the electronics to the pickups -- all quite absurd. It was probably custom-ordered, according to several sources, but unquestionably was built from the beginning as a left-handed model. Raymond Arritt 16:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Excellent! That puts paid to all those stories. Hofner must have had left-handed basses back then (God knows why) but... why was Sutcliffe in on the session/gig? It seems there is a lot more to know about the stuff that is skimmed over in biographies. BTW, do you know that Sutcliffe had a furious fist-fight with McCartney one night during a gig because McCartney said something bad about Kirchherr on stage? This prompted Sutcliffe's leaving, according to Spitz's source. The band played on, and broke them both up after the song ended. Wonderful stuff. andreasegde 16:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Ahhh, I have just read that Macca bought a bass when he got to Hamburg (but borrowed Sutcliffe's bass until he got one which he had to play upside-down) and Sutcliffe "sat in with them" when they returned in 1961. Case solved. andreasegde 07:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flowers in the Dirt

I have a question. Paul's album Flowers in the Dirt contains collaborations with Elvis Costello under the name Declan MacManus. The track listing also gives "You Want Her Too" (Paul McCartney/Declan MacManus) as duet with co-writer Elvis Costello (i.e. Declan MacManus) - is this song officially billed as a duet with Costello (as the WP track listing suggests) or is it billed as a duet with Declan MacManus (seems more logical to me). I think the WP usage should reflect the official billing. Cheers, Str1977 (smile back) 20:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The guy performs as Elvis Costello, and writes as Declan MacManus. That would make the WP article correct. --kingboyk 20:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
It's the difference between a stage name and a real name. Larry King (CNN) was born as Lawrence Harvey Zeiger. I also have a User name which is not my real name, as most of us do, and as you have, Str1977 :) andreasegde 21:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
There's a certain Mr Richard Starkey, who used to be published by Startling Music, who goes under the name Ringo Starr, I believe. Never 'eard of him, personally. --kingboyk 21:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
There's another bloke called James P. McCartney, who sings songs about silly love and Scottish islands, but he's not related to Macca at all. BTW, James has got a brother called Peter M. McCartney, who's not related to anyone. andreasegde 19:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Kingboyk, thanks for the information. That's what I wanted to know.
Andreasegde, don't treat me like a silly child. I know perfectly well the difference and I didn't ask about it. I only asked which name he used on this record. Str1977 (smile back) 09:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I am really sorry if you felt hurt, User talk:Str1977 - I was only having fun. The editors on The Beatles' pages often joke with each other, and it was definitely not a joke against you. We are a wonderful bunch, and you should join us. Trust me on this one, please... :) egde 19:54, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

Several of our categories got deleted, I have just discovered. See Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_May_4

I'm quite pissed off at losing "The Beatles films". There seems to be a drive currently to remove categories which have few articles in them, even if the logical seperation is sound or they aid navigation :( --kingboyk 22:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what to do/say about losing categories, but I think the portal page idea I mentioned elsewhere is a means within our control to categorize articles and content. I know, I know; I should stop talking about it and get started, but I have some non-WP items in the fire right now and can't get to it until next week. John Cardinal 01:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
"Our"? Weren't you one of the folks who declined my request to rejoin? :P Just get yerself back on the list man!!
Seriously, the portal idea doesn't seem like a bad one; I'm not sure how much freedom we have in that namespace to do those things but I suspect quite a lot. Keeping such an entity up to date manually would be difficult though, perhaps a bot should be enlisted to help? --kingboyk 11:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

And Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 May 5. Sigh. I'm getting really sad at the state of CFD; instead of treating categories as handy containers for groups of articles they seem to have moved towards "if not bursting at the seams, delete it". If they go around just deleting Beatles categories we'll end up with (may already have) stacks of uncategorised articles; if on the other hand they actually bother to merge to Category:The Beatles (which doesn't seem to be happening) that category will become a mess again. And I spent so long sorting out these categories. --kingboyk 14:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Let It Be… Naked article in trouble

This article has been blocked due to an alleged copyright violation by User talk:Misza13. Please investigate, make corrections and talk to User:Misza13 who made the block. Steelbeard1 12:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not "alleged" - entire sentences have been copied verbatim from that website, which consitutes a copyright violation. The article should probably be rewritten from scratch in a temporary sandbox, as the copyvio template suggests. Миша13 12:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
What website? Steelbeard1 12:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Are you actually reading what other people write? Check the article - the URL is clearly specified there. Миша13 13:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
We are trying to have a constructive discussion on how to fix the article. It would help immensely if we talk about the URL on this page. So what is the URL In question? Steelbeard1 13:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so for those who are too lazy to visit the article and read for themselves:

The previous content of this page appears to infringe on the copyright of the text from the source(s) below and is now listed on Wikipedia:Copyright problems:
http://mixonline.com/recording/interviews/audio_naked_truth_beatles/

Миша13 13:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's remain civil here please. It may have been a better idea to have posted it in the first instance. Thank you. Vera, Chuck & Dave 14:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I started the rewritten version of the article at Talk:Let It Be… Naked/Temp. How is it? Of course, you can add to it without including the disputed material. Steelbeard1 17:13, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Article was restored to last version before the copyrighted material in question was inserted. Steelbeard1 20:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the temp page as the matter is now sorted. --kingboyk 10:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA

Astrid Kirchherr has now joined the ranks of The Status Board after waiting for a long time. I am as pleased as punch for her... :) egde 16:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drastic change to {{The Beatles}} proposed

Please read and comment on "Drastic change?". Thanks. — John Cardinal 02:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I have moved this to end of the talk page, as users should comment on it. egde 19:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time to replace Infobox Guitarist?

There have been a growing number of Wikipedians questioning the need for a separate infobox for guitarists. The {{Guitarist infobox}} was created by Wikipedia:WikiProject Guitarists, and it easily survived a deletion nomination back in September of last year, but that was before {{Infobox musical artist}} (which is supported by Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians) became a widely accepted standard. Both infoboxes are currently endorsed by Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography, but recent discussions between some members of the Guitarist and Musician Wikiprojects have concluded that it may be time to deprecate the guitarist infobox, and start replacing it. (Unfortunately, this is not a task for bots, and will have to be done manually.)

Before making any final decision on the matter, we would like to get feedback from the broader community, so I am posting this notice to several Wikiprojects which may be affected. Comments should be posted to Template talk:Guitarist infobox. If you have strong feelings about this infobox, one way or the other, please feel free to let us know. Thanks, Xtifr tälk 12:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] delsort changes proposed

Hi over on the WikiProject DELSORT talk we are discussing merging the Beatles sort list into the newly created Bands/Musicians list. Comments are welcome either here or there. John Vandenberg 23:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Since there were no objections this went ahead. the wub "?!" 20:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Songwriting credits

Hi guys, not an official member of this project but thought I'd mention this - I couldn't see any policy on the project page about it so made my own judgement which of course we can discuss if need be. An anon editor has been changing credits under Track Listings on a few later albums to read either 'Lennon' or 'McCartney', depending on the actual author. I understand this, we all know that the pair wrote many/most songs apart in the second half of the 60s so the attributions are probably 'correct', however I've reverted them since I believe the subtleties of who 'actually' wrote what belongs in the main body of the article (where it's already generally discussed) and not in the Track Listing, where you should just go with the official songwriting credits. Cheers, Ian Rose 03:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. The track listings should show official credits. John Cardinal 05:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)