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[edit] Discussion

[edit] SG-1 Episode notability

As already stated a few sections above (#Some things), all SG episode articles will be up for review some time in the not-so-far future. It is current consensus among most of the reviewers that only those article should be allowed to have their own article if they either assert notability (e.g. by awards, see #SG-1 episode articles possibly worth saving), or offer significant encyclopedic coverage (production, casting, reception, other noteworthy things, see Zero Hour (Stargate SG-1) for an example). Episode notability/review discussion usually take about a month. I am an SG-1 fan (not so much SGA) with some spare wiki time at the moment, so I would like to get a headstart before the results of the discussions (usually redirects) are enforced by consensus. I have already made a list of episodes that received award recognition above; they can survive on their own for now, so they will be exempt from my following plans. I will also ignore every episode starting with Season 4 because of the audio commentaries. So that leaves the majority of the first three season episodes. My plan is to start Stargate SG-1 (Season 1), Stargate SG-1 (Season 2), and Stargate SG-1 (Season 3). All episode plot will be trimmed&merged there, leaving redirects to the respective season article. The articles can still be revived anytime as soon as they assert real-world notability or significant secondary information (as outlined above).

An other or additional option (which I am trying to look into) is transwikiing the full episodes to wikia, which would leave them outside the scope of wikipedia notability guidelines and they can get as detailed in plot as the editor wants. WT:DIGI#Transwiki (the Digimon wikiproject) has already had some experience in this matter that we could draw from. Articles from wikia can also be re-imported into wikipedia very easily if somebody wants to work on an episode article in a more encyclopedic environment.

But before I start with anything, I need to know if there is resistance about these plans from within this project. If it turns out that too many SG-1 editors here want to work from the perspective of fandom instead of a (real-world) encyclopedia, I'll admit that I don't have the stamina to argue the points of WP:NOT#PLOT, WP:FICT and WP:WAF (and some more) to guideline-ignorant editors, and that I'll find other wikipedia articles to work on. Others can then try their luck in persuading consensus in the ep notability/review discussion to keep all articles, which was almost always unsuccessful, as far as I am aware of. (This is not so much a threat, but a likely prediction of what will happen, in case if you have not been previously aware of the procedure.) If you'd like to state your support, you can certainly do so, but I just want to know about resistance now. :-) – sgeureka ^t•c 01:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, the issues with episode articles can't be described as simply as being "[editors who] work from the perspective of fandom instead of a (real-world) encyclopedia". Having been involved in the development of the episode review process, I honestly don't think it accurately represents a community-wide perspective, and as such it isn't fair to describe it as a consensus. The review process has never been vetted by the larger community, and it is used primarily as justification for merges that are really soft deletes (since no effort is made to integrate material into the destination articles). In fact, there are several rather strident "merge" supporters who are going after articles with a zeal that goes far beyond any typical "cleanup" program, and who have openly expressed disdain for these sorts of articles in general.

Worst of all, there has been little or no attempt to find any sort of middle ground; those who oppose merges are dismissed as "fans", or of being ignorant of Wikipedia's conventions. Editors who oppose "merges" are told - often quite rudely - that their opinions don't matter, or that their work is rubbish, or that they should go to a "fan site" instead. (The "other site" nudge is, I think, quite troubling, as such a move would inevitably lead to articles that incorporate all of the nonsense - speculation, theories, etc. - that we are able to filter out on Wikipedia. Not everyone who opposes merges is interested in a "free-for-all"...)

Sgeureka, please don't take this as a rant against you personally; I actually quite respect the fact that you have made an effort to develop and present your plans here. (All too often, the "notification" consists of a form letter and a lot of pushy statements about how resistance is futile...) I just think that we shouldn't be taking the attitude that the process is automatically correct, and that the outcome is inevitable. Thoughts? --Ckatz^chat_spy 08:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for adding your last paragraph. It seemed at first like you were opposing (my) cleanup attempts because of the actions of others (with whom I may both agree or disagree). In the end, resistance is futile when you don't have guidelines and policies covering your six, but if I/we can "save" the most important information by bringing it in line with guidelines and policies (and/or by simply transwikiing it), we can prevent any nastiness by preventing an externally enforced review process. And that's all I'm hoping for ...and make wikipedia better in the process. – sgeureka ^t•c 12:21, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

As one of those who does not read this portal I came here after finding that the episode articles I often refer to have suddenly vanished. Trim the articles of excessively verbose material if you must but don't delete it all! I doubt I am the first who will come here to find out what happened. Noting my strong objection to this merge/delete/migration. --Shogun (talk) 05:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tau'ri does not apply on Atlantis

Can we please just call them human and be done with it? Tau'ri is in universe speak and should be avoided. We haven't heard that word spoken on Atlantis at all, even when Cromwell was host to a Goa'uld. - LA @ 10:22, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is (and I have no other solution for this), Jonas is human, but he is not Tau'ri. Vala is human, but she is not Tauri. The list goes on for e.g. Teyla and Ronan. In the same manner, Langaran, Aschen, Athosian etc. technology are not Tau'ri although they are human. – sgeureka ^t•c 12:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

"from Earth"? "Terran"? Tau'ri isn't really a good choice. How many people even know how to spell it? Probably just us obsessives! --Tango (talk) 12:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

 :-) I was talking more from the perspective on how to call the Tau'ri-related articles: Tau'ri characters in Stargate SG-1, Tau'ri characters in Stargate Atlantis, Tau'ri technology in Stargate, and Tau'ri organizations in Stargate. And I am currently proposing a new article called Tauri starships in Stargate (which of course I should have spelled Tau'ri starships in Stargate). I am not really happy about the term myself, but as I said, it's the best we currently have. I think "Terran" is even more obscure than "Tau'ri", and "from Earth" is impracticable in article titles (IMO). – sgeureka ^t•c 13:07, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stargate Atlantis episodes being transwikied and about to be redirected, Stargate SG-1 episode about to be redirected

Although this has already been announced elsewhere, I'm making a note here in case somone missed it:

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Stargate/Stargate SG-1 episode review is still open, but the lack of any comments leads me to believe that there is no opposition, so I will do what I think is right in about one or two weeks.
• Talk:List_of_Stargate_Atlantis_episodes#Tagging_of_episode_articles details what is about to happen with the Atlantis episodes, also due to the lack of progress otherwise

– sgeureka ^t•c 12:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vala Mal Doran

Vala Mal Doran is up for GA review. If someone wants to read over it, go ahead. I don't see a reason why the GA should fail, and I'll try to rework the other character articles in the same manner by first removing the original research and the unnecessary plot, later by adding real-world content. – sgeureka ^t•c 12:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline of Stargate

I have experessed my concerns about this page at Talk:Timeline_of_Stargate#Unencyclopedic_and_original_research. – sgeureka ^t•c 12:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It just occurred to me that there is a verifiable source for all the info in the article: the GateWorld Primer.--Aquillyne-- (talk) 14:58, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

The GW primer (which currently just gives you a a 404 error) doesn't state in which month what takes places, so the months are original research. If the months are removed, the timeline becomes redundant with the List of episodes. What may be salvagable (IMO) is the timeline of what the Ancients did. But I think all of this is already present in prose in the Ori and Ancients articles. I have already asked an admin at the SG wiki if they are interested in the timeline (including a complete transwiki), and he'll get back to me. So once the remaining issues are ironed out, I think AfD is the right action unless someone can come up with a better idea. – sgeureka ^t•c 15:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Short episode summaries on List of episodes, and long summaries on season pages

Thanks to User:Ned Scott, it is now possible to show short episode summaries in the LoE, while showing long episode summaries in the season articles. To do that, the episode template now allows a new parameter called LongSummary. If this new parameter has not been added yet to an episode template, ShortSummary will be transcluded instead. As per User:Garda40's concern in this thread, my initial plan to remove all episode summaries in the LoE is thus off the table.

{{Episode list/Stargate
|EpisodeNumber=3
|Title=The Enemy Within
|Aux1=SG Wiki
|WrittenBy=Brad Wright
|DirectedBy=Dennis Berry
|OriginalAirDate= August 1, 1997 (Showtime)
|EpisodeNumber2=102
|ShortSummary=After being...
|LongSummary=After being infested by a Goa'uld parasite in the previous episode...
|LineColor=2A52BE
}}

– sgeureka ^t•c 21:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zero Point Module

May God Bless You Always!

I question the edits that an IP Address made on the above page, but do not know much about Stargate. Maybe someone from this group could review the edits and make a more informed decision. Thank you. (Steve (talk) 02:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC))

I've reverted it for the time being. There were so many typos and formatting errors that I saw no other option, but I unfortunately don't remember all the details of the current status. Someone may want to go over it again and restore the changes that are true. – sgeureka ^t•c 10:46, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I've gone through the version you revert to and it fits with my memory of events except for one missing entry, the ZPM brought to Atlantis by the replicators and kept there (and depleted in Adrift), which I've added. --Tango (talk) 14:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stargateproject: Articles of unclear notability

Hello,

there are currently 95 articles in the scope of this project which are tagged with notability concerns. I have listed them here. (Note: this listing is based on a database snapshot of 12 March 2008 and may be slightly outdated.)

I would encourage members of this project to have a look at these articles, and see whether independent sources can be added, whether the articles can be merged into an article of larger scope, or possibly be deleted. Any help in cleaning up this backlog is appreciated. For further information, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability.

If you have any questions, please leave a message on the Notability project page or on my personal talk page. (I'm not watching this page however.) Thanks! --B. Wolterding (talk) 14:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stargate navigation templates

There are currently six navigation templates for the Stargate articles on wikipedia, namely {{StargateLists}}, {{Stargate Races}}, {{StargateTech}}, {{StargateTopics}}, {{Stargate Characters}} and {{Stargate SG-1 Seasons}} (with the new Atlantis season articles, another one could be created). Most of them are overlapping quite a bit. I have thus merged all of them into one template, see below.

v • d • e Stargate Production Stargate • Stargate SG-1  • Stargate Atlantis • Stargate Infinity • Stargate Universe • Stargate: The Ark of Truth • Stargate: Continuum • Stargate Worlds • Works • Comics • Literature • Audiobooks Television SG-1 episodes (Season 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · 7 · 8 · 9 · 10) • Atlantis episodes (Season 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5) • Infinity episodes SG-1 characters Samantha Carter • George Hammond • Daniel Jackson • Hank Landry • Vala Mal Doran • Cameron Mitchell • Jack O'Neill • Jonas Quinn • Teal'c Atlantis characters Samantha Carter • Ronon Dex • Teyla Emmagan • Rodney McKay • John Sheppard • Carson Beckett • Aiden Ford • Elizabeth Weir • Richard Woolsey • Radek Zelenka Races and factions Ancients • Asgard • Asurans • Genii • Goa'uld • Jaffa • Ori • Replicators • Tau'ri • Tok'ra • Wraith • Lucian Alliance  • Alien Races • Human civilizations (SG-1/Atlantis) Characters by race Ancients • Asgard • Asurans • Genii • Goa'uld • Jaffa • Ori • Replicators • Tau'ri • Tok'ra • Wraith • Miscellaneous Technology by race Ancients • Asgard • Asurans • Genii • Goa'uld • Jaffa • Ori • Replicators • Tau'ri • Tok'ra • Wraith • Miscellaneous Starships Daedalus-class Battlecruiser • F-302 • Prometheus (BC-303) • Goa'uld starships • Aurora-class Warship • Ancient City Ship • Puddle Jumper • Asgard starships • Ori Mothership • Wraith Dart • Wraith Hive-Ship Miscellaneous Ascension • Elements and Materials • Planets • SG-1 • The SGC • Organizations • System Lord • Cast (SG-1 • Atlantis) • SG team Atlantis • DHD • DNA Resequencer • Drone Weapon • Stargate • Stargate Iris • Supergate • Zero Point Module

(A few of the articles are still up for a merge, so the template may become still a little smaller). Would there be opposition if I replaced the current nav templates with the new one? It can be put on auto-collapse or not. – sgeureka ^t•c 20:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe something in this template has increased the horizontal margains by a substantial amount. I can't see it actually, but I have to assume it's the template. — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 23:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The template looks fine to me - there was something a couple of sections up that was causing horizontal scrolling (I've now removed it). --Tango (talk) 00:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks. — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 00:33, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Seems rather large to me - do we need that many navigation aids? --Tango (talk) 00:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean the number of nav templates we currently have? If yes, would you rather have them merged into, say, three different nav templates? Or did you mean there should only be one nav template like above, but the number of links given there should be cut down (i.e. leaving out some pages in the nav template)? – sgeureka ^t•c 08:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The latter. The merged template seems far bigger than necessary to have on every Stargate article. We should either have a smaller single template, or keep the separate templates so we can just add the ones that are relevant to each article. --Tango (talk) 15:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I've been giving this some thought, but I am having trouble to find decent split points for the proposed main template and not come up of what we currently have. I'll try to find possibilities for merging some of our current templates (bottom-up approach instead of top-down), to see if that works better. – sgeureka ^t•c 10:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

As comprehensive as this template is, I think its too bulky. I have tried to condense {{StargateNav}} and tried to combine that with {{StargateTopics}} (so as to possibly replace it). The source code is available here.--88wolfmaster (talk) 03:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

v • d • e Races and Technology in the Stargate universe Alliance of four great races Alterans (chars, tech), Asgard (chars, tech), Furling, Nox Humans Tau'ri (chars, tech), Tollan (tech), Abydonians, Langarans , Genii (chars, tech), Athosians (chars), Prior, Jaffa (chars) Goa'uld System Lords (chars, tech), Kull Warrior, Tok'ra (chars, tech) Other Races Ori (tech), Replicator (chars), Wraith (chars, tech), Asuran (chars, tech) Other Tech Atlantis • DHD • DNA resequencer • Drone weapon • Stargate • Stargate iris • Supergate • Zero Point Module Asgard starships • Aurora-class warship • City-ship • Tau'ri starships • Goa'uld starships • Hive-ship • Puddle jumper • Ori mothership • Wraith dart

Actually, I like yours better than my attempt. It is very clearly arranged, and the elements are grouped by show or not, depending on common sense. This will/would also make the template easier to expand and maintain if Stargate Universe gets greenlit. The only templates that may be necessary then is one for technology (probably a wise idea anyway - there is just so much, even when trimmed) and one for the character lists by race (although I am exploring in how far it is wise to trim&merge some/most character lists into the respective race articles and collaborate with wikia:Stargate for in-universe detail, like I am currently doing with Ori (Stargate)). Last but not least, it can be argued that the "Universe" section in your template should go below the shows, and that Ark of Truth and Continuum can be moved into the SG-1 section, but that's one of the more trivial decisions for later. – sgeureka ^t•c 09:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I am glad you like it. As for the trivial decisions, its easy enough to move the universe section and I can just add extra links to the films under SG-1 next to the seasons part - but i wold like to keep them under franchise (kinda like how SG-1 and SGA are still linked there) until we have enough films to warrant a whole article.--88wolfmaster (talk) 10:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems there is no opposition to your template, so I'll go ahead and replace my code for {{StargateNav}} with yours (with credit). {{StargateTopics}}, {{StargateLists}}, and {{Stargate SG-1 Seasons}} thus become obsolete, and {{Stargate Atlantis Seasons}} will not be created in the first place. {{StargateTech}} should/will remain like it is, especially since it seems like the tech lists, the starship lists, and some odd single pieces of technology ;-) are here to stay. The future of {{Stargate Races}} is uncertain at the moment: it is somewhat useful, but at the same time, the article Aliens in Stargate (and by extend Human civilizations in Stargate SG-1 and Human civilizations in Stargate Atlantis) already carries its burden. I am unsure about {{Stargate Characters}} per my comment above, so the decision about its future should be left for later (probably much later). I'll begin work now. – sgeureka ^t•c 08:25, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't believe it took this long to notice this, but we are should to come up with an new name for the second section (Universe) so as not to add confusion with the upcoming series. Also was there a particular reason why you removed the link for that section?--88wolfmaster (talk) 21:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

It was a test, the test didn't work, and while I was trying to figure out why it didn't work (I never found out), I forgot to revert as promosed. I have restored the link now, of course. – sgeureka ^t•c 09:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

As for the other part of your question - "Fictional universe" or "World [of Stargate]" may work. – sgeureka ^t•c 10:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Timeline of Stargate

An article that you have been involved in editing, Timeline of Stargate, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Timeline of Stargate. Thank you. (I have been given this a lot of thought over the past two months, but I always come to the same conclusion that a (proposed) deletion is the best option.) – sgeureka ^t•c 14:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What should we call the Ancients?

Two IPs are persistently changing every occurrence of the word "Ancients" to "Alterans" in Aliens in Stargate. While this is what they are called in their home galaxy, it is not their name from the perspective of the Tau'ri, or what they are commonly called in the show (except by characters from their home galaxy). Should this be reverted? The equivalent would be somebody going through the entire French Wikipedia and changing every occurrence of "Anglais" to "English", because that is what the English people call it. As Stargate is written from the perspective of the Tau'ri (which I realise is the same thing from a Goa-uld perspective, but it's easier to say Tau'ri than 'people from Earth'), and the article is named Ancient, shouldn't they be referred to on Wikipedia as the Ancients, not the Alterans? —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξφ 19:29, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The Ancients were introduced in SG-1 Season 2 as "The Ancients", were continued to be called this way until early Season 9 of SG-1. To my knowledge, they are still (mainly) being called the Ancients on both SG-1 and Atlantis. That makes it obvious to me how they should be called. The beginning of the Ancient (Stargate) article makes everything else clear. – sgeureka ^t•c 19:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

99% of the time on the show, they are called "ancients", so that's the name we should use. The alternatives should be mentioned, of course, but not used routinely. --Tango (talk) 19:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lists of Stargate topics

A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Lists of Stargate topics, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? – sgeureka ^t•c 08:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Lists of Stargate topics

An article that you have been involved in editing, Lists of Stargate topics, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lists of Stargate topics. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? – sgeureka ^t•c 06:25, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Articles and topics in Wikipedia:WikiProject Stargate/Articles

I have re-arranged the articles in Wikipedia:WikiProject Stargate/Articles (formerly known as Wikipedia:WikiProject Stargate/Recent Changes) to see what Featured Topics are possible with Stargate articles. Although this WikiProject has no quality assessment (stub, start, B-class, GA, FA/FL, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Assessment), I went ahead and have added the current quality of each article (minus seasons, episodes and cast&crew) that I perceived as right. I may later add a parameter to {{stargateproject}} so that the assessment is displayed there as well. Articles where I believe a merge may be beneficial sometime in the future per WP:FICT, are bolded; basically, every stub- or start-class article on single fictional elements may be considered for a merge down the line, but I also have no doubt that e.g. the articles on the main characters can be easily improved to at least B-class quality, often even FA-class level. The quality of lists of fictional Stargate elements (mostly characters and technology) are currently of not so much concern, so I left them most of them out of the considerations. Now that the majority of episode articles and the really poor articles are taken care of, I intend on spending my time evenly now on trimming&merging, and expanding the articles that should stay. I think apart from getting the current B-class articles to GA, I will focus on getting the SG-1 characters topic to Featured Topic. Just for transparency. – sgeureka ^t•c 12:17, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tlak'kahn

Who are these guys. The Stargate Infinity page doesn't say. Tutthoth-Ankhre (talk) 16:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New MOS for TV

The television community currently has an MOS guideline under proposal, and would appreciate all comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Style guidelines#MOS proposal in order to have the best possible guide for television related articles.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)