Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sheffield

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WPT:Sheff

This dicussion page is for participants of the Wikipedia:Sheffield project to discuss future articles, changes to make or moves...

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Archive 1 - October 2006 to March 2007 Archive 2 - March to May 2007


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[edit] Buildings and Structures in Sheffield

Hey guys. I've been looking around, and I spotted {{BirminghamBuildings}}, and I wondered if Sheffield could have something similar. Anyway, I've been playing around, and have created the marvel that is this. Does anyone think that this could have a place on some articles? L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 00:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Also created collapsable boxes, see

Does anyone know how I can make version 1 or 2 expand to the full width of the page, like version 3? L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 01:34, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

It's all in the class. Changing it to "navbox collapsible" should give the effect you are after. Whatever you use, Template 1 doesn't work for me, as the collapsed boxes overlap the frame. I wonder if it might be more useful, however, to split your template into multiple smaller ones: one for buildings in the city centre, one for sports venues, etc? Having so much in one template seems to make it more difficult to find the area of interest, and having more specific templates would allow a more comprehensive treatment of each section. Warofdreams talk 01:58, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
No, template 1 wasn't it for me either. Like I say, the main thing I wanted was for it to look like no2 (with the box round it), but be the full page width like no3. L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 02:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Tried that warofdreams - didn't work. L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 17:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I've changed it to "navbox", which for this template should have the same effect. Does it still not fill the width of the page for you? It does on my browser. Warofdreams talk 12:02, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Warofdream, job done! I've added ver2 of this template to the mainspace at {{SheffieldStructures}}, and also to a few articles. If anyone thinks it needs a few more/fewer buildings, then say so.
I was wondering about the "Stations past and present" section, Is this worth having, since it basically duplicates (an in inferior manner) {{Sheffield stations}}? Maybe it'd be better to have a section here on infrastructure or transport in Sheffield, and include the major roads (if they have articles, ie Sheffield Inner Ring Road, A57 road, M1 motorway), stations, and the Supertram? L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 01:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I am currently adding a number of pages relating to the work of Aedas who are responsible for the design of the Wicker Riverside building which is currently nearing completion. I don't have time right now but would be more than hppy to try out your templates on the article I will be writing for Wicker Riverside. If you want to view my current work search for Aedas. There is an image of Wicker Riverside on that page.

78.148.193.240 (talk) 21:22, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Norman Adsetts

I created this page some time back (when new to Wikipedia) and rather thought he was obviously notable as SIG plc (a page I didn't create) is presumably notable. There is the Adsetts building at SHU for instance, prominent from Midland Station/supertram. The Adsetts are 100% Sheffield (there used to be Adsetts Ice Cream in the 50s). I haven't looked into notability criteria for business people. Anyway the article has been PRODded so I wondered if anyone has any views. I expect he's in Who's Who but have no copy to hand. -- roundhouse 15:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] People from Categories

A discussion has been opened at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject London#Category:People from Ealing by district about upmerging local area categories for People from... into current local government boundaries only. This could have implications across the whole of England if carried through. Your are invited to join the discussion. The proposer is planning a massive merge by 22nd June if no objections are received. --Regan123 11:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notre Dame High School (Sheffield)

Notre Dame High School (Sheffield) has attracted various large boxes re notability etc. I've made various additions and added refs but still the box-ist is dissatisfied - does anyone have any further info or refs? (It seems very notable to me; listed building, connections with Mark Firth etc.) -- roundhouse0 12:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Notability of schools has been a point of contention at Wikipedia for a long time, and may never be settled. There are many who think that all schools are inherently notable--though this is far from being the majority opinion (there is a good summary of various opinions towards the end of the talk page at WP:SCHOOL). Personally, I think that schools should be subject to the same notability criteria as everything else, but I would think that Notre Dame meets these criteria. Cite sources for all the major facts in the article and it should be OK—if the 'box-ist' is still not satisfied take it to WP:RfC. Alternatively you could AfD it to get consensus on notability, however, it appears that the article previously survived AfD so probably that wouldn't satisfy the 'box-ist'. The Pevsner Guide has some information about Oakbrook so I'll add a citation to that later. —Jeremy (talk) 13:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I did consult WP:SCHOOL which seems to suggest that listed buildings are a sufficient claim. (I have no connection with Notre Dame school.) I would personally support inherent notability for any UK secondary school ... obviously it's the new ones such as Sheffield Park Academy which get all the publicity and google hits, google giving a relatively poor coverage to the press c.1855 when Notre Dame started. -- roundhouse0 14:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Portal

As some may have noticed, I have created a portal for the Yorkshire project. I have the basic shell up, so if anyone wants to lend a hand, feel free. Cheers! Fl1942 14:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed deletions (WP:PROD)

  • 25 August Rutland Park, Broomhill (PROD by User:70.110.239.244; "Rutland Park is a distinctive crescent shaped street, starting and ending on Clarkhouse Road in Broomhill, Sheffield.") —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceyockey (talk • contribs) 00:37, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Middlewood

Hello,

I found the Middlewood article on the notability backlog. It would probably best be merged into the article of the appropriate ward. But which is it? Districts of Sheffield says it's Hillsborough, but Hillsborough, South Yorkshire does not list it. --B. Wolterding 15:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I would have assumed Middlewood to be in Hillsborough ward, however, the word Middlewood is marked on the council's ward maps in Stannington ward.[1] I'm not sure how large an area is actually encompassed by Middlewood—it looks to be just a few streets to the north of the old hospital. —Jeremy (talk) 17:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Michael Vaughan

No longer reside in Dore. Mike0001 13:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide a source? — jacĸrм (talk) 13:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stations Sheffield Midland to Dore

On the pages for these stations (Heeley,Millhouses and Beauchief) it mentions four platforms/running lines, two fast and two slow, but my understanding was that before the 1970s MAS resignalling there were a pair of lines for trains to Chesterfield->London and a pair for trains using the Hope Valley line. However before the opening of the Hope Valley line it may have been the case that there were slow and fast lines/platforms. Does anyone have any comments on me altering these? Talltim (talk) 17:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It amounts to the same thing. The Midland - London via Chesterfield and the MML New Road was effectively intercity/fast, whilst the Midland - Manchester via Hope Valley was a commuter/slow line, stopping at a lot of little village stations on the way. L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 13:27, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Not so convinced. In the past, when the stations existed slow trains would have stopped there on their way to Dronfield, Unstone, Chesterfield, Clay Cross etc) Not all trains using the MML would have been expresses. I'm sure there is a bit about in Batty's Rail Centres: SHEFFIELD Talltim (talk) 14:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
There were local services from Sheffield to Derby and Nottingham. On the 1900–1902 quadrupling of the tracks Batty states "... the original twin tracks being given over to Manchester trains and a new double line being built alongside, to the east" (p. 53), but later on the de-quadrupling he states "nearer to Sheffield Midland, the 1900 dive-under which took the down fast line under the up and down slow lines was taken out of use from 25 June 1972" (p. 122). Maybe many of the Sheffield–Derby/Nottingham trains skipped these stations? —Jeremy (talk) 02:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for looking that up, I meant to do it myself, but not yet had time. Sounds like the Batty book can't really be used as a definative source for this (good book as it is), or possibly the working pattern changed over time. Talltim (talk) 13:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sheffield derby

This article seems quite redundent. The Steel City derby covers the major derby and i've create Rules derby to cover the one between Sheffield and Hallam. The Sheffield derby should probably redirect to Steel City derby (possibly with a disambiuation message at the top for the Rules derby). Any objections or other ideas? josh (talk) 21:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sheffield Albion F.C.

In creating articles about early England footballers, I often come across references to Sheffield Albion F.C. but there is no article about this (defunct) club on WP, nor can I find much on the net as a whole. Can anyone add a brief history into the Defunct football clubs in Sheffield article? Cheers. --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 19:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some stations (and WP:RM)

I have just gone on a moving spree although these should be uncontroversial. I have been moving many of the Closed stations just to ... railway station.

I have decided to do a requested move on these shown below:

See Talk:Sheffield Victoria Station

Simply south (talk) 13:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neighbourhoods revisited

Back in 2005 I merged a lot of neighbourhood articles into articles about wards because 1) they were mostly very short stub articles and I felt that better articles could be written if a larger area was included, and 2) wards appeared to have official, verifiable boundaries which made it much easier to determine what was in which ward, whereas the boundaries of neighbourhoods seemed fuzzy and open to discussion. I just discovered that the city council has added neighbourhood profiles to its website (see [2]) that include boundary maps and population data. Does it make sense then break out more neighbourhood articles? —Jeremy (talk) 20:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Personally, yes, I'd like to see more, in-depth, neighbourhood articles (linked from the summarised Ward articles). After all, the neighbourhoods existed, as hamlets etc., far before the modern wards (which are still subject to change, according to the changing political climate). Wikityke (talk) 00:36, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Having said that, I've just had a look at some of the SCC maps, and have some doubts. For example, has anyone else heard of "Housteads" as a traditional district of the city? Bowden-Housteads Woods, yes, but Housteads dsitrict? (where's Bowden ?  ;-) ).Wikityke (talk) 00:36, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, a few districts didn't really ever exist as hamlets (Hillsborough, for example), but otherwise I agree fully with Wikityke. Articles on neighbourhoods would be good, and most of the SCC neighbourhoods are fairly logical areas, but a few aren't really suitable. If we do move to articles on neighbourhoods, can I suggest doing what ever other city does, and use the {{Infobox UK place}}? Warofdreams talk 01:46, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of the UK place box. The majority of information applies to the whole of Sheffield and it fails to include other useful info such as the ward and when the area became part of the town/city. It would also be more useful to show their location on a map of Sheffield. josh (talk) 12:41, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
If those are your only objections, they can be easily remedied. I've implemented a map of Sheffield, and I can't imagine there would be opposition to adding the ward as an option for the infobox. I think that the date the area became part of the city needs explanation; for example, how do you decide when places such as Hillsborough or Attercliffe became part of the city (Hillsborough - southern part of Sheffield since it was developed, northern part some date in early C20?, Attercliffe - part of parish of Sheffield since its creation probably in twelfth century, but was long a separate township). Finally, I don't see that some of the information applies to the whole of Sheffield (and it's really only administration and emergency services; the constituency, postcode and phone number all vary) as an issue - for example, we usually state in the article that the suburb lies in South Yorkshire and the City of Sheffield, so why not in an infobox? Warofdreams talk 13:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I've added the infobox to High Bradfield and Handsworth, South Yorkshire as examples, and it was already used in Ringinglow. How does it look? Would the ward be useful? Any other information? Warofdreams talk 13:50, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Those boxes show my point. Only 2 of the items (postal area and constituency) vary from area to area. They are drowned in a mass of fields about county wide institutions. Anyone looking at these articles will either already know about Sheffield or would expect to get those details from the Sheffield article. If your looking for the distinct details of each area then they are going to be made more inaccessible due to the amount of repetitive material in the infobox.
Hillsborough wasn't annexed until 1919. Although the name is sometimes used for parts of Sheffield prior to that the area given by SCC is restricted to the immediate area of Hillsborough Corner. The borough/city would be used for annexation dates. Prior to the creation of the borough the town of Sheffield had no official boundary. Transport links and distance from the city centre would also be useful additions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshurtree (talk • contribs) 15:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Really? I don't see it that way at all. If I follow a link to Dore or Bradfield, I wouldn't expect to have to look at the Sheffield article to find relevant information. In addition to the postal code and constituency, the co-ordinates and the location on the map change, as do the parish and population. While the information placing it in Sheffield doesn't change, it's pretty essential for the article. In addition, the Fox House area has a Hope Valley phone number, so it is worth stating that the remainder of Sheffield is all 0114. So the only non-essential items which don't change are the emergency services and European constituency. One issue with writing articles is that people tend only to put in what is distinct about an area - because it is more interesting and more easily referenced - and tend to omit what is less unusual.
A distance from the city centre might be useful, and could certainly be implemented, but I'd worry that it would be very difficult to reference. Do you have a proposal for how transport links would fit into an infobox? Wouldn't this kind of detail be better placed in the body of the article?
What you say about Hillsborough is interesting and would be ideal to put in the article, but it rather proves my point about it being difficult to explain all that in an infobox. Prior to the creation of the borough, of course the town was administered by various bodies covering different areas, but I would have assumed that being part of Sheffield would refer to either the parish or the township. I'm not too concerned how annexations is covered, and agree that they should be mentioned, but this will need more explanation than an infobox can provide. Warofdreams talk 19:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Just wishing to add my tuppenth-worth really. I do think that now we can have officially-designated boundaries, we can now start creating articles about them but, I do think we need to add to the sub-sections on the ward articles first, and then expand out/demerge only as the need arises (which it may not). This also gets us conveniently around the problem of "whoever heard of Housteads/Granville?" etc.
Another concern I have is the naming or articles as 'X, South Yorkshire'. We should either disambiguate with the borough council in which they are located, or the post-town (I'd favour post-town, as it is more useful to a reader). Saying 'Hillsborough, South Yorksire' implies that Hillsborough is a town in it's own right, whereas adding 'Sheffield' denotes it as a suburb.
Infoboxes. I personally like them, as they provide familiarity and a consistent look across all articles, but we would need some Sheffield-specific sections, such as ward and distance from the city centre (we'd need to decide where the 'centre' is)
Finally, i do not know who, if anyone, sanctioned a template for the districts, but one has turned up {{Districts of Sheffield}} which I think unnecessary (certainly at the moment). What do people think? L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 17:11, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you on when to de-merge articles. There's no advantage in creating a large number of stubs, while on the other hand, (for example) the excellent articles created by Mick Knapton would in no way benefit from being merged back in to the ward articles.
The South Yorkshire suffix follows Wikipedia's policy for all places in the UK with names which require disambiguation. A proposal which would have seen suburbs disambiguated by city was rejected, so changing this would really require substantial discussion elsewhere.
On the infobox, please put any suggestions at Template talk:Infobox UK place. I'll be happy to add any which gain approval - and I would certainly support the ward proposal.
Finally, I see that a discussion is under way elsewhere on the Districts of Sheffield template, so I'll leave discussion of that there. Warofdreams talk 02:25, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sheffield City Council website not a reliable source

A few of our articles use facts and figures that are cited to the Sheffield City Council website. However, reading their Sheffield profile pages [3] I noticed that they are copying their facts and figures (not to mention much of the actual text) from the Sheffield article. Although clearly only a small part of their website is copied from here, perhaps we should be cautious when using them as a source given the potential for circular sourcing. —Jeremy (talk) 15:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] High Storrs School (Sheffield)

In the article on High Storrs School (Sheffield), in the infobox, it states that the school was established in 1933. In the text, it states that the school was established in 1880 and moved to its present site in 1933. Which is correct? Coyets (talk) 12:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I would suspect the latter. L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 03:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Companies of Sheffield & Former Companies

The list of companies of Sheffield has several that other than being a business with a branch in Sheffield (as most major firms have) are of no significance unless i missing something. As having looked at there web sites they donot list Sheffield.


Former Sheffield companies; There are a lot of companies of significance historically that started in Sheffield or had major branches / factories here. Should these not be also listed here till they get too big a list and then split. A lot of thes firms have now been taken over or gone bust. The cutlery and tool industry was significant but is poorly represented on here as far as i can see. (could be my search criteria, as you need the answer to ask the question in some cases of weird titles).


Significant Sheffield business premises; Atlas works, Hecla works, Cyclops,etc. As a lot of the redevelopment takes place the sites of these former premises ae disappearing but have cross reference value, to companies as discussed above. BulldozerD11 (talk) 03:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi There Mr BulldozerD11. D I know you from somewhere? ;)
I wholeheartedly agree. Some things, such as the Border and Immigration Agency, are frankly rubbish. this is a central government decision, not a Sheffield business.
The section need proof-reading, developing and a ruthless deleter to make any sense, or it may as well not exist.. L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 03:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Lewis we may have crossed before in Cyber space :)
Have split list in two and started checking relevance of co's listed.
Started a box like you did for buildings and looking for more Sheffield companies to add ( ones with articles if poss). Have a look at box in my talk/sandbox (Has blank place holders and ,sup. code left from original as considering coding entries) Not sure on format of how to split up Current and Defunct 2 separate boxes may be better and then sub divided into categories, but not sure on subdivisions to use.
There are a lot of articles out there that have a Sheffield relavence but not liinked to Sheffield, often created as part of other nich interest projects --BulldozerD11 (talk) 11:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I like what you've done there Bully. I also like the companies template in your sandbox - a great idea, and probably a good starting base. Maybe when I have more time I ought to take a wander around the Brightside/Attercliffe area and photograph some of the old warehouses before they make way for development.
Additional discussion on the template's talk page. L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 11:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article Assessments / Importance Grading

Noticed that a lot of the WikiProjects have a Assessment / Grading system on articles why is this not applied to Sheffield articles ?

Should the WikiProject Sheffield tag be applied to all Sheffield related pages found, as the project scope appears to imply that this is a reasonable action, or does this generate too many article to Audit ? BulldozerD11 (talk) 01:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

An assessment/grading system is useful for co-ordinating a lot of active members - I don't think the Sheffield wikiproject is quite busy enough to require it. And if the assessments/grades aren't carefully maintained by a lot of active members then they'll just get out of date and lose whatever use they initially had, I reckon.
On the other hand, I reckon tagging all Sheffield-related articles so they can all be easily found from the wikiproject page is useful, and fair game even where somebody outside the wikiproject has written the article. --VinceBowdren (talk) 10:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
That sound a fair comment on the grading idea Vince, just thought i would ask having see it used else were on here.
I will tag Sheffield related article i come across, as often they only have limited links, and others may know more article they can be linked to or expand them. As seen a couple of items over zealously tagged for deletion before they can grow into useful article with a bit of work. If people are not aware of article how can they link to them thus defeating the aim of expanding the range of article in the encyclopaedia. Some sections appear to have been very heavily policed for references and others have non at all. ? ---BulldozerD11 (talk) 00:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)