Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Archive 5

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Contents 1 Scouting WikiProject in the Signpost 2 Scoutwiki 3 Lead coordinator 4 Category help 5 Scotland 6 BSAseries template 7 Secure connection 8 In SignPost 9 Scouting songs 10 BSA website updating 11 alternate names for camp service article 12 Rlevse Might Be Gone 12.1 Returning 13 template? 14 Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting article modifications 15 Tooth of Time work at GraphicsLab 16 Youth images 17 Possible copyright infringement by WOSM 18 This one keeps coming back 19 Certain Userbox 20 Historic Scouting images 21 Navboxes 22 Portal candidates help 23 Bronze Wolf hybrid image 24 Template:Scouting in Poland 24.1 TfD nomination of Template:ZHP 25 Creation of 2 documents on Wikipedia Commons 26 Baden-Powell Peak 27 left handshake 28 Template:EurScout 29 UK Scout County/Area articles 30 Scouting Sections Infobox 31 Boyce photos 32 One of your high-importance articles has been prodded 33 Mahdi Scouts again 34 just found this... 35 Thinking Day 36 Scout Green 37 image deletionists again, aargh... 38 Proposed "Top" Importance articles 39 template creep 40 WOSM 41 Ireland 42 Scouting userbox MfD 43 Boy Scout Handbook image 44 Dragonskin 45 Cabals 46 Recently found articles 47 "First-Ever National Eagle Scout Search" 48 List of Scouts in Poland 49 Gadgets 50 Today's featured article-E. Urner Goodman 51 general question 52 GSUSA megamerges 53 WOSM applicants 53.1 Updates-Montenegro 54 Headings 55 Scouts Canada 56 Bhutan Scout Tshogpa article 57 Inclusion of {{Asia topic}} and {{Europe topic}} etc. in Scouting articles 58 refToolbar 59 OA and wikilinks 60 Notability for Local council camps of the BSA 61 off-topic but near-topic ;) 62 Deletionpedia 63 New Scotland Regions 64 Can I get a little help 65 Tobasco Donkeys

[edit] Scouting WikiProject in the Signpost

We'll be in the Signpost on Wednesday, 2 Jan about 17:00 UTC, someone noticed us, be sure to read it, many of us get it, read it on my talk page if you like. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scoutwiki

I have just been spending some time at the Scoutwiki network and in particular at the English Scoutwiki. This is a successor of the Scouting Wikia. I do not think we should see this as a rival. For a start, a lot of Wikipedia articles were moved over there some months ago. Some were not moved and I am in the process of moving the State and other articles from Australia, the County/Area articles from UK and scouting articles from New Zealand and other places in Oceania. We need to ensure that articles from WP do not degrade with time. It is aiming for a broader coverage than we have and welcomes articles down to Troop level. It is therefore a place to help us not bite newbies with their Troop articles, often badly written. We can help them to move the articles to ScoutWiki. In moving some articles from Australia I have already undone some merges we did earlier to non-notable articles. The English ScoutWiki is however very quite. It is smaller than the French and Finish ScoutWikis, probably because the main proponents, who are bureaucrats and administrators, come from these two countries. The English ScoutWiki is only slightly larger than the Dutch ScoutWiki. In the last three days I have only seen edits in "Recent changes" from one other editor, two anon editor (one vandalizing) and one of the admins. There are therefore a number of potential problems. I think the most pressing might be living people issues and copyright violation of both text and images. General vandalism does not seem to be common. Go over and take a look. You can comment on my talk page there. I have the same user name. --Bduke (talk) 05:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I edited on ScoutWiki for a bit as Gadget850, but there seems to be no real challenge. I found that I actually prefer to work in a more critical environment such as Wikipedia. Yes, it can be aggravating, but it keeps us honest. I can see where ScoutWiki can end up being hagiographic. Some quotes I came across recently:

Bachmann's Law: Trolls are the driving force of Wikipedia. The worst trolls often spur the best editors into creating a brilliant article with watertight references where without the trollish ecapades we would only have a brief stub.

Sagredo's Corollary: The ability of an editor is proportional to the degree to which the editor has been trolled.

Over two years of part-time editing on Wikipedia has done more for my writing and debating skills than any of my formal courses. ScoutWiki does have its uses— local unit articles are certainly a good fit there. It might be a place to store reference material that is currently on troop websites and not suited to WikiSource. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Ed, I agree with you. It is difficult to be at your best there. It is also a massive job to get it fixed up to something decent and not just a mass of articles. The categories, for example, are a mess. If it gets more English speaking editors it might improve. --Bduke (talk) 00:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lead coordinator

Rlevse has served most successfully in this role since we reappointed him almost exactly a year ago. That discussion is now at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Archive 3#Lead coordinator. Rlevse, after some discussion, stated "Thanks for everyone's support. I support a one year term with no limit on being reelected. Let's do it every Dec and close in early Jan, like we just did. Bduke is in charge of overseeing it. This will give folks a chance to openly voice concerns, if any exist. MILHIST does it this way and has had the same lead coord for some years but they still hold the election." I then closed the discussion with that being the process. However, we forgot to do this in early December (Alright, I forgot). I am therefore starting the process now by calling for expressions of interest or proposals for the coordinator for 2008. If someone other than Rlevse is appointed, the person concerned will be mentored by Rlevse and take over early in Febuary. I hope the process at the end of 2008 will be as described above. --Bduke (talk) 23:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• I would like to kick of the debate, by asking Rlevse to serve for another 12 months. During last year he has become an administrator on the English Wikipedia and on Commons, allowing him to serve the Project even better than he had done before. I see no concerns, but now is your opportunity to express concerns if they exist. --Bduke (talk) 23:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I accept to serve again if that is the consensus. Let's run this for 7 days like before, if that's okay. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Support Rlevse for another term without reservation JGHowes ^talk - 02:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Support Rlevse, and for the Oval Office if he has a workable exit strategy... :) Chris (クリス) (talk) 02:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Support Rlevse --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 02:36, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Support Rlevse - I can't think of anyone who could do the job any better. -MBK₀₀₄ 04:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Support Rlevse - Kingbird (talk) 06:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Support Rlevse -Phips (talk) 12:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Support Rlevse (as if other could even be considered) - Wim van Dorst (talk) 13:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

• Congratulations, Rlevse, you have been reappointed as lead coordinator of the project for the rest of 2008. --Bduke (talk) 05:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Go Randy, it's your birthday, not for real-real, just for play-play. :) Chris (クリス) (talk) 05:43, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the support everyone. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category help

Need category help at Category_talk:Arrowman_Wikipedians — Rlevse • Talk • 21:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

If someone can explain the problem, I will take a stab at it. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:48, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scotland

An anon editor at Scouting in Ayrshire has indicated that in April 2008, eight new Scout Regions will replace 31 Scout Areas in Scotland. This will mean that 30 articles need to be merged into 8 (we had one - Orkneys - deleted). This will be a complex job. Can we build a team to think about it in advance? Any editors from Scotland? --Bduke (talk) 23:05, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Still need volunteers. Evidence for this change is here in a page off the Scouts Scotland web site. --Bduke (talk) 22:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] BSAseries template

The Boy Scouts of America

Cub Scouting Boy Scouting · Varsity Scouting  · Order of the Arrow · National Eagle Scout Association Venturing · Sea Scouting

Advancement & Recognition

Eagle Scout · List of notable Eagle Scouts · Merit Badges

History of the Boy Scouts of America

William D. Boyce · James E. West · Ernest Thompson Seton · Daniel Carter Beard

History of Merit Badges

Scouting portal

I think it is time to retire {{BSAseries}}. I created it well before {{Infobox WorldScouting}} and {{Scouting}} were developed— those templates are more universal. We should use {{Infobox WorldScouting}} for organizations and events and {{Infobox Person}} for biographies; {{Scouting}} can be used with all of these. Further discussion on the talk page. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that is necessary, to delete BSAseries. If the project wants to, I won't object, but I simply feel it's okay to keep using it. Either way is not a big deal to me. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep, because it is doing a good job and we have a lot of articles on BSA topics. BSA is notable enough do have it´s own template.-Phips (talk) 14:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Only thing I might tweak is appearance, make the bottom "see also" look like the link for Infobox WorldScouting, perhaps change the color scheme from pale blue to the gold-green of the Project... but I think Phips is right, as BSA is the 800 pound gorilla, nothing wrong with keeping it and just aligning a little. Chris (クリス) (talk) 16:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem is when {{BSAseries}} and {{Infobox WorldScouting}} are used in the same article, such as Boy Scouts of America. I just reversed the two so that Infobox WorldScouting is on top and removed the image from BSAseries. Perhaps make the portal optional so it does not duplicate the infobox? Ideas? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is a test version. Changed colors to match WorldScouting, removed some extra stuff and made the portal look like WorldScouting and optional. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 01:52, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I might go with gold instead, that much text gets lost on that green. Just my . Chris (クリス) (talk) 02:15, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Gold it is... --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 02:49, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Much more bueno, methinks! Chris (クリス) (talk) 02:56, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Here it is with portal=yes; I had to remove the background color else the logo disappears. More colors at List of colors is someone has different ideas. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks good.-Phips (talk) 18:30, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. My opinion is that this should be used as a secondary navbox, not the main infobox. I'm going to add a box width parameter— {{Infobox WorldScouting}} is 18em wide and {{Infobox Person}} is 22 em wide. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 21:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

It's blue and gold, Cub colors, leaving out other programs. How about green/brown, outdoorsy colors of some kind?Sumoeagle179 (talk) 22:02, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Pick something from list of colors. One problem is that all of the text elements in the box are links, thus light blue. Unless someone knows how to change the link color in the box, we can't change the font color, thus the background must be something light. Some examples:

• Boy Scouts of America Green is too dark
• Boy Scouts of America Wheat is OK and looks like the Scout shirt

--— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 22:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I really like the wheat one. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, for the Wheaties lovers. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:13, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Check William D. Boyce for use with {{Infobox WorldScouting}} and Boy Scouts of America for use with {{Infobox WorldScouting}}. The optional box_width parameter lets us use it neatly with other infoboxes. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I made the changes live—let me know of any issues.

Changes: Default width=215px; width now variable to match other boxes; background = wheat; reorganized entries; portal is optional and off by default

[edit] Secure connection

In case you don't know it, you should connect to wiki via a secure connection, which has this address: [1], if nothing else it'll keep your username and pwd hidden from the bad guys. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

actually this is problematic, I gave up on it. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In SignPost

It's Jan 11 and I just got the Jan 2 SignPost that has us in it, see Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2008-01-02/WikiProject_report. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scouting songs

I think this article should go AfD and have proposed accordingly at Talk:Scouting songs. But, before initiating the process, do other Project participants have thoughts one way or the other? JGHowes ^talk - 15:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes- see talk page. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] BSA website updating

From the BSA webmaster:

On January 14th, the web site http://www.scouting.org will move into a new publishing platform. You will see the benefits in enhanced navigation and search, e-mail and subscription services for every page, and a consistent look and feel throughout the site. The biggest change to Scouting.org will appear in the way that URL’s are handled. For example, the URL for the Boy Scouts program on Scouting.org has previously looked something like “http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=by” whereas the new URL for the Boy Scouts program will be “http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts.aspx”. This new URL handling system will provide more intuitive URL’s and make it easier for councils and others to provide links back to Scouting.org.

So, it looks like we are going to have a bunch of busted links next week. This message only mentions the main www.scouting.org site and may not include other sites like olc.scouting.org or marketing.scouting.org. For links, see Special:Linksearch/www.scouting.org. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Only a month late, the BSA site is now updated. Every link we have is now busted. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

UGH, unless they provide a table that cross refs the new links, we have to figure it out on our own. — Rlevse • Talk • 19:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

There is a site map at http://www.scouting.org/webmasters.aspx. It is good for individual documents: http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-406.pdf is now at http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/28-406.pdf. We are going to have to drill though the site to get html pages. Search does not work. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I have started working these. See User:Gadget850/Scout1 for my worklist. I am only updating articles, not talk or user pages. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 22:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] alternate names for camp service article

Scouts' Own

Oh, it's a camp service, I get it. That was totally unclear in the article. Might there be a better name yet? Chris (クリス) (talk) 03:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Why rename? Scouts Own is what it's called. Make a redir to it from other things it's called. — Rlevse • Talk • 03:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

See article talk page. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 03:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rlevse Might Be Gone

This is most unfortunate: According to his talk page, he has quit. (Please don't shoot the messenger!) -MBK₀₀₄ 04:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I read that myself and am trying to find the background and bring him back. I've quit like four times and he's the one to rein me in. Chris (クリス) (talk) 04:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Anyone figure out why Rlevse quit yet? Man it was like poof! Find the turd that caused this.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 05:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Rlevse making veiled threats about me to other users was the last straw. I have had some e-mail discussion with him, but I hope he is sleeping now and will reconsider when he wakes. Give him all the support you guys on his side of the pond can give. --Bduke (talk) 06:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I actually know Rlevse in the real world. I've spoken to him about this. He's very upset and frustrated. The ANI thread was the last straw, but there's more; but none of it is against the members of the Scouting Project. He loves this project as you know and its members. I don't know if he'll come back or not. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 14:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

---

I have happy news to report. He has returned. -MBK₀₀₄ 19:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Returning

After much thought and deliberation I have decided to return. Many wikians contacted me by various means and I truly appreciate the support from all of them. Man, did I need that wiki break! I have learned from it and will use the experience to improve. — Rlevse • Talk • 19:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

You forgot to mention that your first act was going to be making me International Scouting Beermeister.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 22:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] template?

What is the template to use when our articles are cited or used in other media? Chris (クリス) (talk) 20:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

{{Onlinesource}} --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:27, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting article modifications

I'm sorry to have to open this discussion when we have just received bad news about Rlevse, but a process has started that I have to follow through . A few days ago, I made a suggestion on Talk:Girl Guides about several pages connected with Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting (Girl Guides, Girl Guide, Girl Scout, Girl Scouts, Girl Guide and Girl Scout, Girl Guiding, Girl Scouting, Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting) The current set-up is confusing and it's difficult to know where to put information. To summarise my proposal, I suggested that if it ends in -ing, it's about the movement. If it doesn't end in -ing, it's about the section/age group. All the GG and GS pages should be brought in line with this. I will admit with hindsight that my proposal could have been clearer. Be that as it may, one user supported the suggestion. Another user opposed the suggestion so that a centralised discussion could be had about the issue. While I am nervous about reporting the opposer's arguments myself, I think this user's view was that the suggestion I had made contravened Scouting Wikiproject's guidelines and so should be discussed. I think the crux of the problem revolves around how we cope with the article with plurals in their titles. The project guidelines at the top of this page say:

Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, etc - General summary pages that have see also links to other Scouting pages. Used to avoid to lead users to more indepth articles, no longer disambiguation pages due to all the confusion of different naming conventions. All other plurals redirect to the singular per Wikipedia standard, not to Scouting or a separate organization oriented article

I had not realised this was what the guideline said when I made my initial proposal. In response, I would point out that Boy Scouts is a disambig page and so doesn't fit the guideline given. I would also point out that an article that summarises another article is not something that Wikipedia is designed to cope with. I would be happy to modify my original suggestion so that the plurals are all disambig pages. Howeve r, this is still not what the guideline suggests and so I propose we should also change the guideline. Kingbird (talk) 05:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The guidelines can be changed if there is consensus for it. You make good points Kingbird. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 12:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Kingbird on this. I have always found Boy Scout and Cub Scout to be rather confusing. Looking at Boy Scout again, I have the feeling it is rather BSA-centric, but for the BSA we have Boy Scouting (Boy Scouts of America). Take a look at Age Groups in Scouting and Guiding; naming and age levels are all over the place. Perhaps we should not try to generalize the movement in this manner. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I have been looking at this in detail, and I think we are trying to maintain universal articles that just do not work. Age Groups in Scouting and Guiding is a good article in that it lists the different national Scout organizations and their sections. On the other hand, articles like Beavers (Scouting) are not really that good; they try to give a generic overview of a subject that varies greatly from one organization to another; this particular subject is better covered by a number of articles on Beavers, Joeys, Cub Scouts and the like. A big chunk of these universal articles is given to each NSO.

My recommendation is to merge these; it looks like there really is no unique content that is not in the other articles. Articles on Scouting sections are:

• Beavers (Scouting)
• Cub Scouts
• Scouts
• Rover Scout
• Venture Scout
• Rainbow (Girl Guides)
• Brownie (Girl Guides)
• Girl Guides
• Ranger (Girl Guide)

There are some similar "universal" articles that should be examined as well:

• Air Scouts
• Lone Scouts
• Scout District
• Scout Commissioner
• Scout Leader
• Scout troop
• Scout Group
• Scoutmaster
• Sea Scout

--— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I have some sympathy for Ed's view but I want to look at them in detail. I have a real problem, which I raised once before, about the Boy Scout article. Cub Scout may have the problems that Ed raises but it is about the section on an international basis. Therefore it has no problem with the fact that the Cub section has girls in some countries. Boy Scout, however, is not about the section. It is supposed to be about the "boy" in a way that no other article is. It therefore does have serious problems and confusion about the fact that girls are in the Scout section in some countries. If we keep the international articles on sections, then Boy Scout should be rewritten to be about the section, the original section of the Scouting movement, and no about the boy. I think there is a similar problem with the Guide article, but I need to check that. Probably more later. --Bduke (talk) 00:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

We should probably tackle these individually on their own merits. Why not start with Kingbird's question on Girl Scouts and go from there? We can use the results as a springboard for the others. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 03:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Kingbird's suggestion and think she is agreeing with me that we have articles on the movement or articles on sections. The problem really is with articles that start "A xxx is a girl .." or "A yyy is a boy ..", because somewhere in the world a xxx is a boy and a yyy is a girl. It also means we have articles on all the later sections, but not on the first sections for Scouts and Guides. As for the general articles, there are some that can be cleaned up but you are probably right that some should go. Should we discuss these separately on their talk pages? --Bduke (talk) 01:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I have just looked again at Sea Scout and Air Scouts. First and of course, the titles should be comparable, either both plural or both singular. Second, the Sea Scout article seems fine. It has a good introduction and good history. The world differences are carefully set out with real information in a table. The Air Scouts article is a mess with sections on different countries at different levels with no guidelines for what should be included. The amount just depends on the enthusiasm of an editor from a particular country. I suggest that both be kept but "Sea Scout" should be renamed to "Sea Scouts" (now a redirect), and "Air Scouts" should be rewritten to conform to the same pattern as "Sea Scouts". --Bduke (talk) 01:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Sea Scout implies a person, Sea Scouting the movement, c.f. Scouting and Girl Guiding. These should be laid out like Scouting- a worldwide history and overview without just being a list of sections. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 02:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Ed, I am not sure what you are suggesting. Sea scout certainly is not about a person. Are you suggesting the two articles be renamed to Sea Scouting and Air Scouting, both of which are redirects. I would not oppose that. As I indicate above, I do not think we should have articles about the person, in general. We should write about the movement and its branches and sections, along with about named individuals. --Bduke (talk) 07:12, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• Sea Scout "Sea Scouts are members of the international Scouting movement..."
• Boy Scouts "Boy Scout is a boy, usually 11 to 17 years of age, participating in the worldwide...

These articles try to describe the persons as opposed to the movement. You can't separate the two. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 22:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

If you can not separate the two, how can you write about one as opposed to the other? My key point is that we should not be writing about the person, but about this part of the Scouting movement. With that emphasis it will cover what the members do, but we can not talk about the members unless there is research that has studied the members. I propose a renaming to Sea Scouting and Air Scouting. It avoids confusion. --Bduke (talk) 22:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

My point exactly. Thank you! --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

At this point, I'm unclear as to what various courses of action are being proposed. Kingbird (talk) 21:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Kingbird, could you please take a look at what I wrote at Talk:Boy Scout as it is more general that the particular problem there? --Bduke (talk) 22:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tooth of Time work at GraphicsLab

Article(s): Boy Scouts of America

Request: lighten for detail -- Chris (クリス) (talk) 06:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Graphist opinion: Adjusting Brightness/contrast to see the mountain results in a washed out sky. Which can be fixed, although a close examination of the skyline might reveal some flaws. Most of which disappeared with downsampling (3000px to 1500). Sagredo^{⊙☿♀♁♂♃♄} 21:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I need to let the Graphics Lab know what we want to do. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 03:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

If no one has any thoughts, I'm going to tell them to call it good and to overwrite. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 23:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Youth images

Background

Wikia is a wiki farm stated by Jimmy Wales and associated with the Wikimedia Foundation. They host an assortment of wikis, including The Spanking Art Wiki. A fellow WP editor found that Image:ScoutFun.png, uploaded by by Rlevse, was being used in the Boy Scout article on Spanking Art (which is creepy in itself). After much discussion,[2] the Boy Scout page was chopped, Wales deleted the image from their site and the SA folks created a new policy on images.

Images

Those of use involved in the discussions quickly realized that uploading photos of youth may not be a good idea. There is no way to control reuse once an image is released as free. I have drafted a guideline at User:Gadget850/Sandbox4; once this is polished, I will merge it into WP:S-IMG.

Wikipedia is not censored, but we do need to understand the ramifications outside of WP. There are so many laws and rules that may cover this that we cannot make specific rules of our own, just guidelines and recommendations.

We were lucky here in that Wikia had close ties to WP and the issue was resolved quickly; this may not hold true for other web sites.

--— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Further discussion

The entire spanking art wiki has been removed, but Ed's suggestion is still valid. See [3]. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The guideline has now been updated to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Images#Image reuse. Please let me know if there are any questions. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 22:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possible copyright infringement by WOSM

WOSM's article on the admission of OSMK [4] uses large sections of Organization of the Scout Movement of Kazakhstan, but it neither mentions the Wikipedia as source nor the authors nor the GDFL. Does anybody know how this is handled on the English Wikipedia (I'm only firm with the German way...) and could take the necessary steps? --jergen (talk) 09:13, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

What about http://n2zgu.50megs.com/KAZ.htm? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 10:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

You're right, the misspellings they use mirror that site, which we did receive permission from the author (personal friend) to use as our own source material. That makes sense. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 22:55, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This one keeps coming back

Once again someone uninvolved with our Project decides they know what's best for us, and changes a whole bunch of our stuff without discussion. Once again they're our navigation boxes for the bottoms of articles. I have undone the unwelcome changes, and let the user know they are welcome to join the ongoing discussion here. We've done this before. As I understand it, very few of our navigation boxes are meant to be used with each other, and those that are, we've already made collapsible. Those that are meant to be standalone, we've left uncollapsible as they add to instead of distract from the article. I'm just tired of others unrelated trying to decide what's best for us, though I know that will be a perennial battle. Thoughts? Anyone is most welcome. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 03:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

How about if we use the navbox template, but suppress the hide feature with state=plain? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 13:20, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

What's the point of having the hide feature on our templates, if those templates are not meant ever to be collapsed? The only Scout template I can think of that is meant to be collapsed is the monstrous green tiered one that shows several major categories, which requires the reader's interest to open and see what's there. The others are standalone and help navigate single specific topics. That other Wiki templates use that syntax is not justification for changing ours, unless there is a valid reason those ones should ever be collapsed, and those ones are never stacked to begin with. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 15:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The reason for the edits was that I was randomly browsing around and encounterd Polish_Scouting_Association#External_links_and_references where three Scouting navigation boxes are stacked one on top of the other. So I decided to implement standardized navbox so it would look better (I am a very visual person). If your only complain is that they are not supposed to collapse, you can suppress that feature (as suggested by Gadget850). That way everyone would be happy, no? Renata (talk) 16:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Chris- I reverted {{WOSM Regions}} back to the navbox, but added the state parameter so that hide does not show. In my opinion, the use of {{navbox}} creates a standard and makes it easier for editors to make minor updates without having to understand a bunch of code. If you don't like it, that's OK; just revert as it really should not be a big issue. If it does work for you, then we should update the other templates --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Technical note: I believe that {{!}} will stop working in such cases pretty soon because of the m:migration to the new preprocessor (I might be wrong). (not loggen in Renata3) 150.210.226.2 (talk) 18:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

We are now running the new pre-processor. The issue with {{!}} was in its use as a template delimiter in Parserfunctions. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 22:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

So what's the outcome? Renata (talk) 17:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

See ^[discuss] below.

[edit] Certain Userbox

While i have no problem with Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Scouts Australia adding me to a category (Wikipedians interested in Scouting) but its for current and past members and i know a few past members like myself that aren't interested in scouts anymore like the category implies. Peachey88 ^{(Talk Page | Contribs)} 09:16, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

If you want to use the userbox but not be in the category, subst the userbox in your page and save. then edit to remove the inclusion in the category. It is pretty obvious. I might comment that is likely the name of the category is due to pressure from epeole at User Categories for deletion. "Interest in" sounds like being useful for collaboration. "Member or former member" does not. --Bduke (talk) 10:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Or, use the category suppression option; I updated all the userboxes with this feature some time back. Just end the userbox template with |categories=no}}

. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Historic Scouting images

Found and uploaded some good PD images of B-P, W.W. Head, Dan Beard, and E.T. Seton in the George Grantham Bain collection at the Library of Congress. They are better and clearer than the Non-Free images previously used, which I've tagged {{orfud}}. JGHowes ^talk - 18:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

These images, ad PD should be on Commons with Bain tags. See Image:LadyBadenPowell39191bain.jpg for samples of how to do it. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

They are. JGHowes ^talk - 19:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, usually people say "on commons" if it's commons vice here. What are the names of the pics? — Rlevse • Talk • 19:25, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Here:

Image:Ernest Thompson Seton.jpg

Image:Scouting pioneers.jpg

Image:Walter W Head.jpg                — JGHowes ^talk - 20:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Navboxes

I took on the task of updating our navboxes in category:WikiProject Scouting templates to use the standard {{navbox}}. The navbox template has a lot of options, so I think I did a pretty good job. There is room for a few tweaks:

• Some templates such as {{WorldJamborees}} use the hat icon. This is no big deal, but it throws off text centering when multiple navboxes are used and it is not really apparent as to what the image is at this size, especially for non-Scouts.
• Some templates originally had the links centered, when using the group parameter to create fields on the left side, the centered links looked odd so I returned them to the navbox default of left justify.
• The group parameter simply did not work well with {{Scouts UK Counties}} as the group names were so long.
• The group column does not have a standard width, so using multiple templates as in Polish Scouting and Guiding Association is not particularly aesthetic.

Please let me know what you think on this. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I foresee supporting whatever Gadget wants to do here. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Now, now... there are tradeoffs between a standard look and aesthetics. I really would like input. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:06, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Samples of standard looks vs aesthetics please? My old brain is not getting this methinks. ;-) — Rlevse • Talk • 03:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, let's look at what I did:

• I did most of these like {{AfricaScout}}, with a group column on the left and the list of links left justified. Centering the links here just did not look right to me.
• On {{Scouts UK Counties}}, the group names would have been way too long, so I just left them bolded and did a line break to the list.
• Other templates like {{IntlScoutsGuides}} did not have a group name, so I left them centered.
• In all the templates, I replaced | with a {{·}}; this automatically adds a non-breaking space so that line wraps are consistent and you don't get a dot at the beginning of a line; this appears to be the more standard way to do this.

Now that these templates have been converted, further changes are relatively trivial Some possibilities:

• Dump the hat icon as used in a handful of templates like {{Scouts UK Counties}}; it is purely decorative and I really think that most readers will not understand what it is.
• Redo all the templates like {{Scouts UK Counties}} without a group column and center everything- this makes all of the navboxes look the same.
• Some of the original templates had the v·d·e links at the top left and some did not; I kept the original style; this should be made consistent across the line- one way or the other.

So, let me know what you think on this. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 03:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

• • I like all three of your ideas. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

OK- I'm done with this. Now that they use navbox, it will be very easy for anyone to update as needed. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I have done a test update of {{Scouting}} using {{Navigation with collapsible groups}}. Please see Template:Scouting/sandbox for the test version and Template:Scouting/testcases for examples. The new version differs from the old in that it uses named parameters. Leave commens on the template talk page. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Scouting is done and articles are updated. The new template is more flexible- we can add, delete or rearrange groups and the only articles we would have to update are the ones using new groups.

I just found {{AmScoutbystate}}; it was not in Categories: WikiProject Scouting templates. I made only minor changes to this as it uses a different base template that does not allow changes like the other templates. I might come back to this one. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 21:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Portal candidates help

I just selected the Feb 2008 portal items. This gets harder every month. It'd be a great help if people would nominate items/articles. To do so, just click on the "candidates" link in each section. Kudos to User:Kingbird who does a great job keeping up the current news section. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• I'll makwe an effort to remember. --evrik ^(talk) 14:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bronze Wolf hybrid image

Bronze Wolf.jpg:

hybrid image

A hybrid image has been created so there don't need to be two images of the same badge on the article, is this acceptable? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 02:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks good. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Love it. Replace where needed. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Scouting in Poland

Oh Thou Ed Gadget the Template God, :) what do you think of standardizing {{Scouting in Poland}} to be horizontal rather than vertical, meant to be placed at the bottom of articles rather than competing with our broader infobox, and standardized with our color scheme? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 22:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

This would be very easy to convert to a navbox, but it bears some further thought. Polish Scouting Association is already over-navigated with six navboxes. It looks like {{ZHP}} has most of the links used in {{Scouting in Poland}}. Both have a lot of redlinks in Polish , so I'm not sure what they all mean. Should we convert {{Scouting in Poland}} from an infobox to a navbox as is, try to merge it with {{ZHP}} or create another navbox with the extra info? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 22:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, heck! Thank you for pointing that out! That is infobox creep. :( I vote then we merge {{ZHP}} into {{Scouting in Poland}} as someone didn't finish the articles they intended to write, or else they were deleted for notability before our Project came along. Anyway, on the English language Wikipedia, we don't need two like that for Poland or any non-predominantly English-speaking country. I think the Poles just got here the fu'stest with the mostest. I remember three years ago, most example Scouting photos were Polish. That was fine for then, but outside of pl:Wiki, it's really not justified. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 22:56, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge{{ZHP}} into {{Scouting in Poland}}-Phips (talk) 23:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, Awards and decorations, Anthem and Terminology redlinks can be removed from {{Scouting in Poland}} as unwritten; all redlinks in {{ZHP}} may be removed, and for the three articles that actually exist, replace Hufiec with Szare Szeregi, replace Naczelnik ZHP with Chief Scouts of the Polish Scouting Association (just did a rename), and replace Przewodniczący ZHP with Presidents of the Polish Scouting Association (just did a rename). Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 23:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Not clear- do we want Scouting in Poland as an infobox (on the side) or navbox (bottom)? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

my vote is bottom, horizontal; as a vertical one, it interferes with our existing infobox, no need for two tall ones. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 23:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I did it as a navbox, merged the two, updated the names and removed redlinks. See Template:Scouting in Poland/sandbox. Please edit this as you see fit. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I put back in two notable but as-yet-unwritten national organizations, and the Scout Cross, as it appears to be used by all organizations equally, interestingly. Ready when you want to put it into the regular namespace, I think, and we can AfD the ZHP template. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 00:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I did it myself, but now it has a little coding doohickey that shouldn't be there. Help? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 22:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

You mean the extra line break and |} that I just fixed? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 22:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't know whether it needed the stuff at the bottom, so I tried to merge the two. Thanks! Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 01:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I would also suggest merging {{Polish scouting ranks}} into our new improved template. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 18:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Do we even need this template? {{Scouting in Poland}} has a link to Polish Scouts rank insignia, which in turn links to each article. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I would actually argue (in fact I did a couple of years ago) that all the Polish ranks should be merged back into their parent article, they're stubs and haven't gone anywhere for years. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 18:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I did not drill down to the articles, but you are right. Merge proposed. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Should we then also put {{Polish scouting ranks}} up for TfD, or wait until after the merge? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 07:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:ZHP

Template:ZHP has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 01:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Creation of 2 documents on Wikipedia Commons

I propose to create 2 new articles/documents on the Wikipedia Commons (not wikipedia itself); namely "Assembly of a mini survival kit" and "Tying the only knots you'll ever need". The latter would include no more than 8 knots which are helpful in survival situations and in low-tech construction (eg in the developing world). These knots are:

• thedouble overhand knot
• the reef knot
• double sheet bend
• marline hitch
• bowline
• clove hitch
• diagonal lashing
• round lashing

Some examples of the knots described

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lashing_%28ropework%29
• http://www.realknots.com/knots/bends.htm
• http://www.realknots.com/knots/stoppers.htm

Example on how the "Assembly of a mini survival kit-article is to look like at Wikipedia Commons" should look like:

• http://www.wikihow.com/Make-an-Improvised-Mini-Survival-Kit

As these documents simplify the knots one should learn to the bare minimum, they are easier to remember/use in situations when they are needed. I am guessing that with these 2 documents, we may do allot of good for the developing world (humanitarian advantage) and help the scouting effort aswell.

Can I get support on this and is it possible the WikiProject Scouting community may undertake action to make the documents ?

Thanks in advance. KVDP (talk) 12:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by "documents?" Wikimedia Commons is a "repository of free content images, sound and other multimedia files." If you want to write a how-to on this, I think Wikibooks would be more appropriate. I wikilinked items in your list that have articles—you might want to take a look at those and see how you could improve them. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I have the question too, Commons is for images (pictures and sound files). I'm ad admin there too. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikibooks has b:Scouting/Knots and b:Outdoor Survival that you might want to look at. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

We don't understand what you want since you call it document but Commons doesn't have docs. Please be more explicit. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Baden-Powell Peak

As part of the 2007 Centenary, Nepal renamed Urkema Peak in the Himalayas to Baden-Powell Peak. [5] [6] --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• Should that go here: List of mountains in Nepal 28°15′22″N 85°31′10″E / 28.256111, 85.519444? [7] --evrik ^(talk) 19:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] left handshake

On the Spanish Wikipedia, I found this character, translated crudely but in whole: "Prempeh was a head Ashanti that defended his ethnic group from the English invasion in 1893. He was captured and pardoned by Robert Baden-Powell and exiled later. His legacy is the left-handed Scout handshake."

The English Wiki has a space for him at

• Otumfuo Nana Prempeh I 26 March 1888 to 12 May 1931

Does anyone else come up with background on the veracity of this? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 08:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I"ve seen various versions of this story. They all center around African warriors using the left hand to hold their shields and to lower it showed they trusted each other. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I found the same in Walter Hansen (in German):Der Wolf, der nie schläft-Das abenteuerliche Leben des Lord Baden-Powell, published by Herder Freiburg-Basel-Vienna, 1985, p.162 (Gruß, Pfiff und System der kleinen Gruppe) and p.124 (Die Krobos:Geheimbund an der Goldküste). Also there p.126/27 Prepeh became founder member and president of Scouting in Ghana in 1919. The left hanshake was used by the Krobos a special unit of the Ashantis.-Phips (talk) 22:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

And here is another origin story- that B-P copied it from Seton. [8] --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 22:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It sounds like we have the seed of an article for Scout handshake! :) Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 01:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Template:EurScout

Infobox {{EurScout}} is used only in WOSM-Eurasian Region. I suggest we deprecate this in favor of navbox {{EurAsiaScout}}. The image should be reused in the body of the article similar to WOSM-European Region. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 21:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I would argue for leaving this particular template as it is, for several reasons:

1. This is the smallest of the regions, so such a template is not obtrusive
2. This is a unique region, as there is no WAGGGS equivalent, and is only used on this one article
3. This is the newest region, and as such is constantly in flux, with nations not only gaining WOSM recognition, but also losing it on two occasions
4. Because of the unique status of the region, this template is an immediate visual representation of conditions as they change, and draw the reader's interest and attention

Just my . Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 03:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] UK Scout County/Area articles

Please take a look at some general comments on all these articles that I have written at Talk:The Scout Association#County/Area articles. Comments there are welcome. There are are also issues there that affect similar articles in other parts of the world, but I want to concentrate on the UK at this time. --Bduke (talk) 23:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scouting Sections Infobox

{{Scouting Sections Infobox}} is currently used in only a handful of articles— {{Infobox WorldScouting}} has been extended to the same functionality. See Template:Infobox WorldScouting/testcases for examples, including how affiliation can be used for the parent section of a sub-section like Young Leaders. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Boyce photos

A mom in my troop grew up in Ottawa, Illinois, where William D. Boyce grew up and is buried. She sent me 7 photos of the grave site and I've put them on commons, see Image:BoyceGrave1.jpg though Image:BoyceGrave7.jpg. I made a category for Boyce on Commons too. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] One of your high-importance articles has been prodded

Viz Boy Scout Literature. Anyone care to do something to bring it up to scratch? --Paularblaster (talk) 00:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I put it on out watchlist for a a week with no comments. It is just a list of literature; I have no idea why it is rated as high. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 01:38, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

As you say, it's just a list - and not even a very thorough one (you'll have noticed that I'm not unprodding it), but when I saw that this project had rated it for importance I thought it should be mentioned. --Paularblaster (talk) 02:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Gadget850, At least the ref should be saved, can you move it to the best place and then I'll delete the article. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

If you mean :

• Scout Courtesy, Customs and Drills: A manual for Troop and Council Leaders ©1942, Boy Scouts of America, 2 Park Ave, NY, NY (20000342)

I have no idea where we would use it, nor would I use a reference I had not personally read. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'll just delete it. Any admin can always retrieve it if we ever need it. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:05, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mahdi Scouts again

It has been suggested that this article be removed from our project scope, and I would like to open the discourse to our members for wider input. POV pushers on both sides have finally found Imam al-Mahdi Scouts, I think it should be watchdogged, perhaps locked down tight until we do have all necessary facts, but I do not think removal from our project is in order.

It is precisely because they use the name and symbols that they have to fall under our scope. There have historically been and are now Scout groups, even within WOSM, that abuse the name and heritage, but because they use the name "Scout" and not "Pioneer" or something else, they are still within our purview. Like a tailbone, not sure what really to do with it, but there it is. We don't have to condone it to have it within our scope.

Our mission on our tags says "as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting," of starting to disinclude those distasteful to us if there is evidence that we should not.

My points are these

• They have the outward trappings of Scouts, to include the name itself, the basic uniform and even the fleur-de-lis, which pioneer, Royal Ranger, Boys Brigade et.al. do not
• There are countries, as Randy pointed out to me two years ago, that not only have _miliarist_ WOSM Scouting, but _compulsory_ in many circumstances. Some religions have adopted Scouting as their formal youth movement, and pressure unwilling boys to join anyway, I've heard that since 1981. Things are fishy in our own Denmark, they just stink differently
• Near as Jergen and I have been able to find, if they are not a member of the Lebanese Scout Federation, they _are_ somehow closely aligned.

In short, if there were a Cheeseburger WikiProject, and if some place had something they called a "cheeseburger", but it was goat meat, and hummus instead of ketchup, and came with pickled radishes instead of fries, though that is nauseous, because enough of the basics are there, it should be included because it still has enough of the basics for its parentage to be recognized.

I agree it is a problematic article, but we should keep it under our purview lest those POV pushers claim things in Scouting's name and our Project's name that will blemish us. This way we can still control the content from going POV either direction, because we're the best WP going and we do care about what is out there.

Of course, these are just my views, trying to be impartial, please everyone let us know what you think! Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 03:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The basic question here is, do they use the Scout method? Or are they more akin to Young Pioneers, Red Falcons and/or Hitler Youth? I don't know. — Rlevse • Talk • 04:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Judging from their website [9], the Al-Mahdi-Scouts are a member of the Lebanese Scouting Federation and thus of WOSM. The website actually displays informations on the project Rebirth of the Phoenix, which is the main project of the Lebanese federation [10]. Pictures on the Al-Mahdi-site include one [11] of Atif Abdelmageed, director of the Arab Regional Office.

The structures of the Lebanese federation are quite complicated. I tried to get some information on this during the WSJ last summer, but did not get something real. There seems to be a number of subfederations organizing their membership following their own rules. The total number of member organizations of the LSF is about 20. --jergen (talk) 09:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Imam al-Mahdi Scouts does not make it clear that they are members of the Lebanese Scouting Federation; the LSF article has IMS as a See also link. If the IMS is a verifiable member of the LSF and the LSF is a WOSM member, then they are certainly within our scope. If this can't be verified, but there is reason for belief, then the article should state this more clearly; the article is within our scope on a "monitor" basis. If it can be shown that the IMS is not a member of a recognized federation, then given their political and military related programs, I would classify the IMS as a rogue Scouting organization outside our scope. Even then, we should monitor the article and the group. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Gadget850 and Rlevse are correct, we need to find out better, if possible, just what the nature and affiliation of this organization is. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 22:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] just found this...

Take a look at The Dangerous Book for Boys, and let nobody tell you Scoutcraft and ideals are irrelevant in the 21st Century. :) Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 06:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I gave this to my 14-year old nephew for Christmas. He found it quite fascinating, especially when he found the section on dating. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 09:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this pertinent enought to Scouting to tag it? Have not previously heard of this book. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

It is not a Scouting book, but any young Scout would enjoy it. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 13:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thinking Day

Hello tomorrow is World Thinking Day or just Thinking Day, so I send my Greetings to you all out there in the whole world as a brother scout. With the best wishes for you, your family and your Scout group

Yours in Worldwide Brotherhood and Scouting-Phips (talk) 22:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Likewise, to all! — Rlevse • Talk • 23:21, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scout Green

I would love to know how this one got its name. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 08:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I know where it is and have seen it from the M6 going over Shap as it is between the carriageways as the article says. I have no idea why it is so named but it might be due to scouts in the English or Scottish armies, as it is one of the areas they fought over. It would be nice if the article had some references. --Bduke (talk) 12:34, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] image deletionists again, aargh...

Image:ZR250MillionScouts.jpg has been listed for deletion. Please visit Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2008 February 25#Image:ZR250MillionScouts.jpg and vote against the deletion of this image. This image was placed in the article specifically to show that an image was taken during a specific less-than-a-year period in which the nation was known as Zimbabwe Rhodesia from June 1 to December 12, 1979, preceded by Rhodesia and followed by Zimbabwe, and as such cannot be replaced. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 21:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention, 'cause I would have missed it. It should be a Speedy Keep and I've added my 2 cents worth at the deletion discussion. JGHowes ^talk - 20:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you JG, glad everyone sees why this one is important! :) Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 22:12, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed "Top" Importance articles

I'm proposing that we take a look at the importance assessments of certain articles at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Assessment#Proposed update of Importance ratings. JGHowes ^talk - 20:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

AH, I encourage anyone interested to particiapate. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] template creep

Do we really need {{GSLAC Camp System}}? In the long run these damn camp articles are just going to be more and more problematic. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 03:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WOSM

Will someone please keep an eye on, perhaps lock WOSM, the acronym? The disambig doesn't apparently suffice for some, so it keeps getting changed back from the redirect to our article. It is far more important than the radio station in Mississippi. Thanks Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:01, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ireland

Would someone knowledgeable look at Sea Scout (Ireland) and see what images should be retained? The images have no source and are incorrectly licensed, but some should probably not be used. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scouting userbox MfD

Just thought you should be aware of this userbox up for deletion since it's categorized under scouting users: CFIREUSA MfD. Dreadstar † 22:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Boy Scout Handbook image

I took the new hazardous weather course offered online by the BSA.[12] When I get to the hypothermia section, I noticed a familiar image— the ripple in the cover is unique.[13] Compare it to Image:Handbook.jpg. I checked with Scoutersig and verified that he had scanned the handbook image at home and uploaded it. Looks like we are starting to get noticed. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dragonskin

Dragonskin is a Venture Scout activity in New South Wales. User:Francis.conroy wrote an article on it at the end of Dragon Skin, which is a disambiguation page. I removed it from there and added it to his talk page, where I also suggested a much contracted rewrite free of POV, that might be added to Scouting in New South Wales. Please keep an eye on it. --Bduke (talk) 04:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cabals

You BSA guys have made it at the Boy Scouts Cabal. Us non-USA folks do not get a look in. I'll have to be content with the Australian Cabal. --Bduke (talk) 21:23, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Strange that the Jews aren't on there, I mean, they did sink the Titanic... Iceberg-think about it. Oy, vey! :) Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 21:30, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

<groan> But the Australian Cabal doesn't mention vegemite, Foster's, Mel Gibson or The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 21:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Mmm, vegemite! How to get that here? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 21:51, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Can't stand the stuff. BTW, do not think we all drink Foster's. It is brewed overseas for overseas folks. You hardly ever see a Blue Tin here. Now a Green Tin, that's different. --Bduke (talk) 22:15, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

What does the green one signify? If you'll go ahead and send me your ration of vegemite... hey, since Japan is closer, maybe I can put in a request... :) Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

It was in the Northern Territory that we ordered beer by the colour of the tin. A Green Tin or if 24, a slab of greenies, is a VB = Victoria Bitter. It is one of the better cheaper beers.

Gadget850, is there a userbox for the Boy Scout Cabal? JGHowes ^talk - 16:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

For personal amusement only. Anyone stuffing this into the userbox list is going to get the Scout Stave of Justice administered. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recently found articles

I've been adding them one or two at a time as I've been finding them, but today I took a look at all the biographies of astronauts here, and there are quite a few that are not tagged. When I get done tagging, should I add them to the section on the project main-page, or should I just list them here, because there is at least 10. -MBK₀₀₄ 20:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's the list, feel free to move it to the project page if you see fit:

• Gordon Cooper - Life Scout
• William Anders - Life Scout
• Buzz Aldrin - Tenderfoot
• Edgar Mitchell - Life Scout
• Gerald P. Carr - Eagle Scout & DESA recipient
• John M. Fabian - Life Scout
• James van Hoften - Life Scout
• Guy Gardner - Life Scout
• Stephen S. Oswald - Eagle Scout & DESA recipient
• William G. Gregory - Eagle Scout
• Gregory Chamitoff - Eagle Scout
• Charles Duke - Eagle Scout

-MBK₀₀₄ 20:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Do we really want to tag all of these folks with only a passing relationship to Scouting? For example; Buzz Aldrin was a Tenderfoot but does not appear to have done anything with Scout since. Those with the DESA, Silver Buffalo or the like should be included. I think it would be better to create a List of astronauts who were Scouts. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 21:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the Eagles (at least) are notable because of List of Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America), and they can be referenced from existing refs on that page. As for the others, I'm not sure, I just do the gnome-type tasks and tag them. I'll leave policy up to you and Rlevse. Also, I didn't tag Harrison Schmitt because he was only a 1st class scout, and it isn't mentioned on that page, but it is on a ref I've read and mentioned above. -MBK₀₀₄ 21:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I think Ed's on to something. Support creation. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 21:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I also support creation, but also think the individual tagging is justified. Also, the BSA and NASA have made our job of creating the page easy: Astronauts and the BSA. -MBK₀₀₄ 21:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

And here is the GSUSA list. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 21:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Wait, _where's_ the Girl Scout list? There's no link. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 03:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Ooops- [14] --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I support creation of a List of astronauts who were Scouts (which include the Girl Scouts). I am working on tagging the Eagle Scouts and but references about their involvement in the articles. Some help would be nice. If I rated to low just change the ratings.-Yours in Scouting Phips (talk) 23:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "First-Ever National Eagle Scout Search"

I don't really know what they are doing with this, but NESA is sending out a mass-mailer this last week. It looks like they will be planning to publish a registry of some sort. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 23:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes- see NESA Eagle Scout Search. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 01:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of Scouts in Poland

I'm looking at this list and thinking, is there any reason we are keeping the redlinks with no explanation on them, or may I delete them and snug this up? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 14:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Was bold, did it, merged into parent article. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 13:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gadgets

Various tools keep quietly appearing under My Preferences > Gadgets. Some that I recommend enabling:

• Twinkle— a really great set of anti-vandalism and maintenance tools.
• Friendly— adds tabs for welcome, shared IP, tag and so forth.

If you do a lot of image work, I also recommend:

• FURMe— a tool that helps with fair use rationales in a "fill in the blank" approach.

--— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 13:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Today's featured article-E. Urner Goodman

:-) I´m happy about that.-Phips (talk) 15:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] general question

is there a "move from Commons" tag, for images which are not appropriate there but which can be fairly used on the English Wikipedia? I am trying to save some images which were put on Commons but have no business there. Thanks. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 02:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Not that I know of. Reload it on en.wiki if it's FU. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:39, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

TCOd, thanks! :) Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, now that I have, I find there is a not-quite-duplicated image I uploaded some time ago.

graphic image saved from Commons:

photograph of badge, right coloring

Should we keep both, or choose one? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GSUSA megamerges

Today I went to go check a local Girl Scout website, and it redirected me thus: "Thank you for visiting the Girl Scouts of Colorado, Western Slope Service Center website. As of October 1, 2007, we are joined together with our sister Girl Scouts from the state as one Girl Scouts of Colorado council, where we will build girls of courage, confidence and character who make the world a better place. To learn more about Girl Scouting on the Western Slope, please visit our new website at www.girlscoutsofcolorado.org." After I got over the mild diabetic shock from the writing style, ;) I wondered. Are such state-wide mergers going on throughout the GSUSA, and where would all this be documented? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 09:19, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Per Girl Scouts of the USA#Organizational structure: "As part of the 26 August 2006 reorganization, the National Board of Directors decided to restructure the 312 councils into 109 councils." --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WOSM applicants

WOSM is considering the applications of four NSOs:

• National Association of Cambodian Scouts [15]
• Scouts of Syria [16]
• National Organization of Scouts of Ukraine [17]
• Association of Scouts of Montenegro [18]

--— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks interesting.

National Organization of Scouts of Ukraine: Who is SICH? Which organisation is this? Is this organisation already included in our article Scouting in Ukraine? Yours in Scouting-Phips (talk) 18:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

(SICH may not actually be an acronym, it seems to point here: Ukrainian Sich Riflemen) Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

"Sich" seems to mean "fortified settlement", maybe it is something like the German Stamm (tribe) concept.--Egel _Reaction? 14:13, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

From the reference:

National Organization of Scouts of Ukraine (NOSU)
Following the recommendations of Resolution 2/05 adopted by the 37th World Scout Conference in Tunisia, the constitutive congress of the National Organization of Scouts of Ukraine (NOSU) was held on 27 March 2007. The congress, which gathered Scout representatives from most regions of Ukraine, approved the Constitution of NOSU and elected its governing bodies. This event was made possible thanks to efforts of three Scout associations (PLAST, SPOK and SICH) to work towards unification of Scouting in Ukraine in a new single NSO so as to be able to join WOSM.

It is not quite clear to me if PLAST, SPOK and SICH are actually merging or are forming a federation. The document also references the WP article on Ukraine. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

As far as I understand, NOSU has actually both individual and corporate membership with PLAST, SPOK and SICH as corporate members, so it is kind of a mixture between a federation and a single organization. But the paper is not very clear on this point. If I was to decide in my association I would request a clarification.

I wonder if Ukraine will be admitted with this presentation; five percent opposition means only eight NSOs. Could also be tricky for Syria, there may be doubts on its independence when receiving state fundings. --jergen (talk) 11:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Updates-Montenegro

• WOSM referred to this organization as the Scout Association of Serbia and Montenegro
• The organization split after the separation of Montenegro from Serbia
• WOSM membership remained with the Serbia organization
• Association of Scouts of Montenegro was founded on 19 November 2006

Reference: [19] --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Right now we have Savez Izviđača Srbije i Crne Gore, Savez Izviđača Srbije and Savez Izviđača Crne Gore. I calved the Serb one off the S&M (no, stop that) one two years ago. If we should integrate, would someone with a good eye make sure all changes are included for that period? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Headings

Is there a reason why three of the major headings on the main project page are Computer Science, Relational algebra, and Economics? Why is "New Scouting Articles" a subsection of "Economics"? Why the disambig page tag floating in the middle of what is clearly not a disambig page? Did I miss something? Kingbird (talk) 04:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks like someone added something we didn't catch...-MBK₀₀₄ 04:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Chris changed a template, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Scouting%2FArticle_watchlist&diff=202701781&oldid=202682388, and inadvertently caused this. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scouts Canada

Someone who knows more about the situation in Canada needs to keep an eye on this article. I reverted an anon's continued removal of materials, and semi-protected to get discussion on the talk page. It looks like the anon has come back using a little used username, but he is explaining his changes. However sources are needed. --Bduke (talk) 06:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we have a long term member from Canada, but hopefully one will appear. Has the user engaged in talk? If it continues the page may need full protection. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:53, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It is looking OK now so I have removed the semi-protection. The new editor is commenting fine on the talk page. --Bduke (talk) 02:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bhutan Scout Tshogpa article

This article dealing with the Bhutan Scout Association has some POV problems which needs to be sorted out. As Bhutan is an independent sovereign nation, the sections on scouting in Tibet and Sikkim should be removed from this article, and placed within the respective Chinese and Indian scouting articles. The inclusion of Tibet on this article is especially troubling, due not only to it being unreferenced, but also because the PRC, with which Bhutan does not have any diplomatic relations, has embarked on a campaign to have Dzongkha renamed by firms such as Microsoft to 'Tibetan - Bhutanese' - whilst Bhutan and Tibet share similar cultures, they are different and distinct cultures all the same. Additionally, due to a border dispute between Bhutan and China, and the lack of formal diplomatic relations between the two, the Chinese actively lead incursions into Bhutan and build roads and the like in Bhutanese territory. Having Tibet and Sikkim on the Bhutan page is opening a big can of worms which I don't believe that Wikipedia should be opening, and hence they should be split out of the article altogether. On another note, the Bhutan Scouts Association as it is officially known (English is an official language of Bhutan) is overseen by the Scouts and Cultural Education Division of the Department of Youth, Culture and Sports, which comes under the umbrella of the Ministry of Education. The BSA has an online presence at http://www.education.gov.bt, with the specific pages at http://www.education.gov.bt/Departments/Dept_YCS/SCED/SCED.html, with a multitude of information, including various handbooks and guides which might be beneficial for this project and development of the Bhutan SA page. Note, the association page on the page is incorrect, the correct badge can be seen in documents such as the scoutmaster handbook which can be downloaded from their site. Anyway, if someone from within the project can look at the Tibet and Sikkim issue, and make any necessary changes; not being familiar with the setup of scout articles on WP, I am hesitant to do it myself. --Россавиа ^Диалог 10:16, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I intentionally put Tibet and Sikkim there, as just as politically and culturally, if they had gone into the separate Chinese and Indian articles, they would have gotten buried or trashed by the persistent Chinese POV pushers. This article is a fine incubator for such sections, as three related cultures, and I am not inclined to move or rewrite as I seem to be the near-only contributor (and nearly only visitor) to that article. There are far vaster POV issues elsewhere to deal with. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 14:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

1. The source at http://www.education.gov.bt/Departments/Dept_YCS/SCED/SCED.html contains valuable material that should be included.
2. The illustrations are too bad to be used. I prefer a slightly differing emblem which has been published by the WOSM in a good quality to bad jpgs.
3. I do not understand why Tibet and Sikkim are included, especially as both paragraphs are mere speculation.
4. As English is an official language in Bhutan the article should be moved to Bhutan Scout Association. --jergen (talk) 08:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

If you want to keep the parts together, better rename to Scouting in the Himalayas. --Egel _Reaction? 09:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

According to the official Bhutan site, it's Bhutan Scouts Association - with the 's', not "Scout" (without the 's'), so I've made the rename. I also think including Tibet and Sikkim is off the track. My suggestion to Chris is to take Egel's suggestion and make a topical article with the name Egel suggested or a similar name, leaving the Bhutan article strictly dealing with Bhutan. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I am a little surprised at the reply from Chris above, so I have made the decision to move the sections dealing with Tibet and Sikkim to the Chinese and Indian articles respectively. This stops the Bhutan article from being POV in this regard; if there is POV in the Chinese article, this is not reason to dump it in the Bhutan article, for the reasons I mentioned above. One thing I did forget to mention is that the Chinese government has done what they have done to Bhutan due to the ridiculous claim that Bhutan has territorial designs on Tibet (an incredulous claim considering Bhutan is still emerging from isolation, and doesn't have the ability to defend itself against Chinese incursions). I also removed speculation of Bhutan being involved in Tibet for 2 main reasons; 1) It is assuming that Tibet will (or is going) to gain independence from China, or that China will allow scouting in Tibet with outside assistance and 2) scouting in Bhutan is run under the Bhutan Ministry of Education, and whilst it comes under govermment, the Bhutan MoE is run on a tight budget as it is (with the country as a whole being a recipient of foreign development aid) and what money the Ministry does have would likely be spent on projects within Bhutan first. Whilst there may be more important POV issues to deal with, articles dealing with Bhutan are the poster child of why WP:BIAS was set up. I see that Rlevse has moved the article, thanks, the old name seemed somewhat problematic to me; not knowing Dzongkha, this is guestimation on my part, but Bhutan Scout Tshogpa is part Dzongkha-part English, and it most likely is not known as Bhutan Scout Tshogpa in Dzongkha - tshopga seems to mean party, group, and probably also association - the Dzongkha word for Bhutan is Druk Yul (commonly abbreviated to simply Druk in some settings, so the transliterated name would likely be 'Druk (whatever the Dzongkha word for Scouts is) Tshogpa'. In regards to images in the article, perhaps contact with the BSA on the email listed on the website (ygcdhead@druknet.bt) would be beneficial; it is my experience the Bhutanese are more than happy to answer questions and will go the extra yard to assist in matters such as this (just going by my own experience in researching the Drukair article which I am currently redoing and expanding). --Россавиа ^Диалог 11:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I've seen the changes and now deletions over the last two days, and some people are just busybodies. >:^{ Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 14:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL. --jergen (talk) 19:00, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Chris, keep it cool. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

There was no proper discussion, there were pronouncements and then everyone did what they wanted to do. It's hard enough to find good information about most of these smaller countries, and often I am the only one who adds any content. I work very hard on these, please explain why I should be civil to such editors. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 23:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion of {{Asia topic}} and {{Europe topic}} etc. in Scouting articles

Is this really necessary and helpful? Chris included the template in the respective Asian and European articles yesterday (or created the necessary redirects), but I'm not quite sure if I'm happy with it: Most of the articles are mere disambiguitions (as Scouting in Austria or Scouting in Armenia) and are blown up by the template. --jergen (talk) 14:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I put them there because I find it useful to have links between the "Scouting in..." articles, right now the only ones linked one to another are the WOSM and WAGGGS specific articles, but there is nothing to tie the non-aligned or alternately-aligned organizations. How are you meaning "blown up"? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 17:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

With "Blown up" I ment pages with only three or four lines and (now) an infobox that's far bigger than the article itself (as in Scouting in Albania). --jergen (talk) 18:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

If you can think of a way to close them, I would be happy to work with you on them. I just think it is a useful way of linking them. I found one untagged, and am going through them now as another graphic editor has offered cleanup on some of our images. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 18:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

You can use {{Europe topic|Scouting in|state=collapsed}} etc. --Egel _Reaction? 08:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Splendid! Thank you! I will go back over them! Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 15:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] refToolbar

• refToolbar will add a "cite" button to the right side of the editing toolbar for citation templates. Can be enabled from Special:Preferences > Gadgets. Allows "fill in the blank" editing for references. — Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

COOL! — Rlevse • Talk • 01:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

This is excellent! Now when I actually get back to writing articles, this will come in handy. :) -MBK₀₀₄ 21:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] OA and wikilinks

Did you know that Chingachgook and Uncas have articles? I doubt that they deserve to be part of the Scouting WP, but should there be any linking between them and other OA pages? —ScouterSig 01:15, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Only if the OA article refers to them as there literary characters and not as OA roles. My two cents. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notability for Local council camps of the BSA

See Category talk:Local council camps of the Boy Scouts of America#notablity

Is there a standard, guideline or policy for gauging the notability of a local council camp? What is the minimal standard needed for a local council camp to be considered notable? Or are all local council camps just inheriantly notable? I tagged many articles for lacking of assertion of notability and/or lack of citing sources. I'm not saying these camps are not a notable subjects, but many of these articles (as they are written now) don't show or explain any notability. What makes a camp notable? ScoutCruft (talk) 02:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know that I'm comfortable discussing this with a single-purpose-account user with a negative username that was created less than a day ago. Watch for sockpuppets. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Have you noticed the edits by User:R00m c? --evrik ^(talk) 19:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this is a vaid question that should be addressed, reguardless of who is asking it and whatever you may assume about them. I would like nothing more than to see these articles flourish, prosper and become quality encyclopedic articles. I would love to see the coverage of individual scout camps grow and become even better. I would like to spend time expanding the articles in this category and I also want to create some new articles covering other local camps that are not yet covered here -- but before I do all this I want to make sure my efforts won't be in vein. Before I spend a lot of time working on cleaning-up and expanding articles, I want to know that my work won't be for nothing because the articles will eventualy be deleted for not meeting Wikipedia's standards of notability. So I ask again... What makes a camp notable? -- ScoutCruft (talk) 05:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I know little of the BSA situation in the USA, but here is a view from outside. In the UK there are articles for the four Scout Activity Centres. I think all other camp sites are only mentioned in articles on Scout Counties or Areas. In Australia I do not think there are any stand-alone articles. Camp sites are mentioned in the State and Territory articles. I have no thoughts on how you organise it in the USA. I thought you might like this information however. --Bduke (talk) 09:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

A similar question periodically arises concerning notability of local churches and middle schools etc. per WP:ORG. Having participated a little in AfD's about those subjects, I'd say that most articles about Scout camps are unlikely to have the required reliable sources to pass WP:N and would need to assert special notability. Even a very prominent Council camp such as New York's Ten Mile River Boy Scout Camp, which certainly has special notability because of Franklin D. Roosevelt's involvement, doesn't have a whole lot of secondary reliable sources. As to a "standard guideline for Scout camps", we have WP:SCOUTMOS#Non-national articles.JGHowes ^talk - 19:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

• I would disagree. Notability is a subjective thing. The fact is, all the information in these camp articles can't be rolled up into the state articles. That would make the state articles too unwieldy. The camp information is important, and I think it's preferable to have them there, even if in a linited form. I prefer to see all the "cruft" trimmed out. --evrik ^(talk) 19:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Jim Howes, notability standards exist throughout Wikipedia, and apply to our project as much as they do to others, hence our standards have been aligned to WP:ORG. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 20:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:SCOUTMOS says in part... "Individual chapters of national and international organizations are usually not notable enough to warrant a separate article unless sufficient notability is established through reliable sources. However, chapter information may be included in list articles as long as only verifiable information is included."

And:

"Local chapter articles should start as a section of the parent organization article. If the parent article grows to the point where it may be split to a new article, and notability can be demonstrated using the general notability guideline, then it can be split."

If these articles can't stand on their own, they should roll into the council article or secondarily the state article. Cruft definitely needs to come out. Everyone wants to write about their favorite camp, but no one works much on the state and council articles; which is a separate issue, albeit related. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to add a further comment and a question from outside the USA. How big are the Councils? I have taken the view that we go to one level of organisation below national. In Australia that is the State or Territory. This has lead to some reasonable articles, even for the Australian Capital Territory, although the very small Territories are a problem. In the UK, the Counties in England and Areas in Scotland and Wales are too small and there are too many. There are 7 in Northern Ireland, 12 in Wales, 31 in Scotland and 57 in England. This is far too many with the population covered being far too small. This leads to these articles being full of unsourced cruft; lists of Groups etc. Scotland has just reorganized to 7 regions and I am planning to merge the 31 Areas into 7 Region articles. In fact I have one in my sandbox when I get around to adding it. Unfortunately we do not seem to have any Project members from Scotland. The experience is that small levels of organization attract cruft. I intend in the process to remove the lists of Groups, etc. However, I am also adding them to the Scoutwiki with the lists. That is the place for them. I am probably going to need some support when I start wholesale removal of cruft. --Bduke (talk) 22:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe BSA has about 500 councils. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Within the BSA, National has four areas, then 308 councils. Within those councils are 307 OA lodges and over 500 local camps. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I have a council list at User:Gadget850/Scout2. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This seems to put the USA Councils as about the same size as UK Counties/Areas or perhaps a bit larger. You may well attract the same kind of cruft that the UK articles attract, although you may have more editors watching them. The UK articles are hardly watched, but just attract edits from anons and others with an interest in only one of them. --Bduke (talk) 00:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] off-topic but near-topic ;)

My father finally found the Christmas present he had for me, and it was actually pretty neat, a 1920s-1930s Eagle Scout ribbon, plus what we found may be an old BSA silver Scout hat badge. Are you folks familiar with the large old brass First Class badges? It looks like that, it was tarnished almost burnt-looking, he test-cleaned the back and it is silver, and he just lightly polished the front. Two questions-

1. did you even know such a thing existed? I did not.
2. should we clean the front or leave the age patina on? Are there rules like there are for coins?

Thanks, folks! Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 13:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I think hat pins have been around from the start. Collar pins were used up to the 1960s. Some good info: [20] I like the current pewter hat pin— I use it on my comfy summer straw hat. [21] A new pin was just introduced for Venturing. [22] --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deletionpedia

Looking for information from that deleted article? Check out Deletionpedia. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Admins can pull up the entire history of a deleted article or page, unless it's been oversighted. — Rlevse • Talk • 16:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New Scotland Regions

I have started the process of merging the old area articles in Scotland to a smaller number of articles for the new Regions. See a longer discussion about it at Talk:The Scout Association#New Scotland Regions. Help is very much needed. I started that one new article on a sandbox weeks ago, and created the new articles and all the redirects today. --Bduke (talk) 04:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Can I get a little help

I'm trying to improve the Jamboree 2008 (Ireland) article, can anyone tell me the appropriate infobox to use, is there an infobox for Jamborees, much appreciated.Seanor3 (talk) 16:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

• Template:Infobox WorldScouting with type= event --Egel _Reaction? 18:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• I added the template for you, and copy-edited the article a bit. Go ahead and add more info/references, and have a nice camp too. Wim van Dorst (talk) 21:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC).
• Thanks for the help! Seanor3 (talk) 18:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tobasco Donkeys

If you have information to add to The Tobasco Donkeys, it is currently nominated for deletion, and at the moment, it meets the criteria for deletion for bands. —ScouterSig 14:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Exported to http://en.scoutwiki.org/The_Tobasco_Donkeys --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

The situation about keeping the license trail on ScoutWiki is confused but I think you have to do more than your did. There is a page somewhere that says you have to give the link to the version number in the edit summary on SW. You go to "Permanant link" of the left column of the WP article and click on "Copy Link Location". The admin on ScoutWiki seems to think you should add {{From Wikipedia}} to the talk page and that is all that is needed. I do both. I have added the version and the template to the talk page. --Bduke (talk) 00:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)