Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Archive 4

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Contents 1 Akela 2 Merge-stubbing more camps 2.1 Category:Boy Scouts of America Local Councils 3 Category:Wikipedians in Scouting (UK) 4 Tell me about category creation 5 History 6 Scouts and copyright 7 Proposed policy on naming of Scouting organisations in non-English speaking countries 7.1 Main points 7.2 Related points 7.3 Summary 7.4 Discussion 7.4.1 Support 7.4.2 Oppose 7.4.3 Conclusion 8 Scouting "Fair Use" Images 9 Totin' Chip 10 Non-free content 10.1 Fair use rationale for Image:Union of Brazilian Scouts logo.png 11 Tim Jeal's biography of B-P 12 Scout Hall 13 ScoutingWikiProject on 21st WSJ 13.1 Participants 13.2 Questions and tasks 14 Stupid Bots 15 History 16 logo request template 17 Betacommand bot's plans 18 Philly eviction 19 Girl Guides - dab or stub? 20 Scout troop 21 Weird question 22 Kudos to Graphics Lab 23 Category:Wikipedians who survived Philmont 24 Request for modification to the {{Scoutlogo}} template 25 Vietnamese Wikipedia on Scouting 26 Weird fact 27 Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell as August 1's TFA 28 Asociación de Guías Scouts de Bolivia 29 Not sure where this is best placed... 30 Brownsea Island Scout camp as TFA for August 2nd? 31 Non-free Scoutlogo 32 Category:Eagle Scouts 33 pdf file to text 34 Scout logo template, fairuse, etc 35 B-P on Main Page 36 Scout Motto redux, please help clean up before I add the table 37 GGGS Request 38 Scouting 2007 Centenary 39 please help 40 Scouting in Spain 41 templates and Scouting WP:MoS 42 mergefrom WikiProject Philmont Scout Ranch 42.1 Philmont task force coordinator 43 Rules and standards 44 Brownies 45 Wikipedia:WikiProject_Scouting/Assessment#Importance_scale 46 Infobox option 47 Scout bio infobox thought 48 Notice of complaint 49 sv:Wikipedia:Projekt scouting 50 Linguists? 51 Sucession box template 52 Infobox WorldScouting 53 Scout Knots 54 Scoutopedia? 55 article ticker? 56 Scout camps 57 BSA categories 58 Non-free use rationale 59 Naming conventions 60 Infobox WorldScouting 60.1 Coordinates 60.2 Default image 61 open invitation 62 Whitewash 63 Style guide 64 What a bunch of pussies 65 Scout camp burns in SoCal fires 66 New sig 67 Scouting History Symposium 68 Reference management 69 BSA Insignia Guide now online 70 Veropedia 70.1 Veropedia uploads 71 Userboxes 72 Totor 73 Infobox WorldScouting 74 What thinkest thou? 75 BSA et al end support for WOSM‏ 76 Reference desk Humanities 77 Songs 78 International organization leaders by year 79 B-P statue 80 What is a notable local unit? 81 fleur-de-lis versus "Scout lily" 82 Deletions 83 Sea Scouts New Zealand 84 5 old Boy Scout cards 85 Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Images to improve#World Organization of the Scout Movement 86 Former names and redirects 87 Founder infoboxes 88 Boy Scouts of America's predominance 89 Fictional Eagles 90 Eagle Scout son of Mike Huckabee 91 New article 92 New information on Imam al-Mahdi Scouts 93 Scout Park images

[edit] Akela

I noticed Akela this morning. Articles should only cover a single topic. We can split it several different ways and I wanted to run it by here first. We can have:

1. Akela = disambiguation page, Akela (Scouting) = the Scouting Akela, Akela (Jungle Book) = the Jungle Book Akela
2. Akela = the Scouting Akela, Akela (Jungle Book) = the Jungle Book Akela
3. Akela = the Jungle Book Akela, Akela (Scouting) = the Scouting Akela

I am inclined to use option #1 but I wanted to see if there was any disagreement. --BigDT 12:36, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I vote for Option 1. Rlevse 12:42, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok ... it's done. I split the history so that the Scouting-related edits are in the Scouting copy of the article. --BigDT 16:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

If you check the todo list, there is a request for an article on The Jungle Book and Scouting. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge-stubbing more camps

[edit] Category:Boy Scouts of America Local Councils

Hi, I was just looking at this category after nominating one of the pages in it for deletion, and I see it's got some explicit criteria, but it seems that around a dozen individual articles have shown up. Does anybody involved in the project want to clean it up, or mind if I do it? FrozenPurpleCube 17:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

• Which articles specifically? --evrik ^(talk) 16:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, a quick list would be:

1. Chester County Council
2. Chief Cornplanter Council
3. Circle Ten Council
4. Connecticut Rivers Council
5. Connecticut Yankee Council
6. Cradle of Liberty Council
7. French Creek Council
8. Greater Alabama Council
9. Greenwich Council
10. Housatonic Council

And that's just the first column. I see another 8 more in the other two columns. Looking at the pages, I see nothing especially notable about any of them, and some of the articles are in very poor shape. FrozenPurpleCube 17:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

• There are some quality problems with some of them. Feel free to tag the poor ones and we'll see about cleaning them up. --evrik ^(talk) 17:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think the best choice is to merge them, or simply delete them, rather than cleanup. But if there's a change in policy being discussed somewhere, it might wait till then. None of the pages were vandalized as far as I could tell, so that's nothing that needs to be done. FrozenPurpleCube 17:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

We have been discussing this back and forth for quite a while. I started a discussion on developing a standard that includes notability, quality, standards and process for these types of articles. You are quite welcome to review and comment on it at User:Gadget850/Camps. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Wikipedians in Scouting (UK)

Category:Wikipedians in Scouting (UK) is proposed for merging into Category:Wikipedians in Scouting or possibly now, in the debate, renamed to Category:Wikipedians in The Scout Association. See Wikipedia:User categories for discussion#Category:Wikipedians in Scouting (UK). Nobody except me seems to have commented to a debate that started two days ago. --Bduke 02:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I did not know, I voted. Rlevse 11:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't find where this is being discussed... -- Horus Kol Talk 02:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Closed already, result [[1]].Rlevse 02:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

That was quick - 4 days! Still, good to see the decision was to keep. -- Horus Kol Talk 03:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tell me about category creation

If you create a category, let me know. I have a watch set on every single Scouting cat that I know of.Rlevse 11:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

Does anyone know where in the Wikipedia:Archived delete debates all the articles we lost in the mass purge were listed? --evrik ^(talk) 21:15, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scouts and copyright

L.A. Boy Scouts new merit badge: 'Respect Copyrights' --evrik ^(talk) 16:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It is not a merit badge, regardless of the article. It is a local award sponsored by the MPAA [2]. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

• I never said it was, but I still found it humorous. Think we can use it in an article? --evrik ^(talk) 17:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps in the LAAC article? I'm guessing that this is available to any Scout, but the BSA is certainly not promoting it. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:34, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

• The LAAC article needs to be fleshe out, but I can't find anything on their history. How would you integrat it into the article? -evrik ^(talk) 20:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

"Local awards" perhaps? Although it appears national in scope. I really haven't heard anything about it since it came out. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Or better yet, simply note that the LAAC and the MPAA worked together to develop the program. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:19, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

• For reasons of circular logic, I think we need a picture of the badge. ;) --BigDT 02:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed policy on naming of Scouting organisations in non-English speaking countries

[edit] Scouting "Fair Use" Images

NThurston seems to have opened me a can of worms... he questioned the use of the Scout Logo licence template on the maps of the UK Scout Counties (example: Image:Scout-uk-map-county-cumbria.gif), and I saw his point, and so when I moved on to the next article, I used the fair use licence... now its being disputed. Now, I'm a simple lad, and I feel that these maps are produced by The Scout Association for this very purpose - it is allowed that any material generated by The Scout Association can be used in and for the promotion Scouting activities. So, could the Scout Logo licence be expanded to include such items as these maps? -- Horus Kol Talk 01:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about the can of worms. I was correcting a different existing problem, and now seem to have shifted to another problem. This must be related to the Law of Conservation of Problems. In looking at the dispute, I actually tend to agree with their reasoning - A free image version of the map should certainly be available or could be created without too much effort. In fact, I question(ed) whether these maps are really fair use or free use to begin with. So we need one of two experts here: a) a cartographer that can create free use versions of the maps. or b) someone that can tell us that these are in fact free use, not fair us. --NThurston 19:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

To put some more oil on this fire (I really dislike FU disputations), I have read the terms of use of The Scout Association before, in casu Baden-Powell House, and it is really clear that there is no consent of use of material from the website for any use (even Scout use) without very clear written authorization by the SA. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

Better for us to figure it out and police ourselves that deal with the FU police. So, Baden-Powell House is a good example. Suppose that we found out that this picture was not supposed to be on Commons because it is copyrighted, etc. In this case, even though the copyright owner had not given consent, it could be used legally under FU in an article under certain circumstances. The problem for us in Wikipedia is the "first rule." Here the policy is one step up from legal. Could someone (yes just about anyone) replace that picture with a photo they took themselves? Yep. So Wikipedia wants to avoid the fight and simply require it to be replaced with a free-license image. With regard to the maps, the information contained in the map (namely, where the boundaries are) is not copyright-able. So I could create a map of the UK (or use a free licensed one), use the information from the copyrighted image to correctly locate the Scout county and the shape of its border, and call it a free image. Will it look something like the current image? One would hope. What is the difference then? It's the fine line of legality, I suppose. --NThurston 21:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

You mention that "information" contained within a map is non-copyrightable. Are you completely sure about that? I was under the impression that to trace information from maps would be creating a derived work of the map, and would still be subject to the original copyright. The OpenStreetMap project certainly disagrees the notion that map information (data) cannot be copyrighted. See their FAQ. It's likely that this data is based on Ordnance Survey data (like almost every officially published map in the UK) so special provisions may apply under Crown Copyright that might not apply for most databases and information. Richard B 21:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

This was the argument I presented in a discussion with BigDT - there was a case in the UK where the Automobile Association had used Ordnance Survey maps to get geographical information without obtaining licence from the OS... their representation of the information is vastly different, but because they had used geo-data that OS had obtained, AA was taken to task, although the case was settled out of court.

That said - I've taken BigDT's advice, and I am now using the available free maps here, and asking the graphics boys to create new maps for those Scout Counties not adequately covered by the current collection. -- Horus Kol Talk 02:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm definitely not a lawyer, and know even less about UK copyright law. However, my understanding is that in this case, the information itself isn't protected. So, if I created a map showing the boundaries of my local council, and the way I knew what those boundaries are is by local at someone else's map, then I am OK. I am not allowed to "lift" their artwork, skill, etc. in the process, so tracing would definitely be out as a method for incorporating that information. I think you've done the right thing, though. --NThurston 14:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The O.S. I don't think would agree - why else would they have sued the AA? They just used OS data to produce their maps. Be wary that the OS as well as many commercial maps in the UK include "trap streets" on maps - streets that don't exist (as well as kinks in rivers and potentially district/county boundaries) that if they appear on another map, must prove that it's been copied. I think it's probably important to stress that US geo-data produced by the government is public domain. UK geo-data is classed by the OS as Intellectual Property and most definitely not public domain. I think it needs to be checked carefully before we just assume that it's ok. Richard B 15:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I can see their point, but if SA makes a map showing that the Cumbria Scout County "is concurrent with the political county of Cumbria," it would be no different than them describing it in writing (as is done in the article). The information about the boundaries of itself is not protected. Now, what we are concerned about is how I deal with that. I could find my own public domain mapping system (software, charts, etc.) and create a map that shows this information or just draw one free hand from my vast knowledge of England's geo-political boundaries. What I can't do is trace, copy or otherwise incorporate the image itself and claim free license. The key is that the means by which I create my map must be free license. For example, if the O.S. made a map showing that something important is located at 10 Downing Street (or 11 for that matter), the information is "where does Tony live/work." I can certainly use that information to make my own map if I base my new drawing/image on original artwork, free licensed images, etc. Does that help? --NThurston 15:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

That does sound reasonable to me, but I'm not a lawyer either. So we'd need a source that's written down then for all counties then ;-). The OS website stakes a claim on "redrawn" maps redrawn mapping means the use within a publication of mapping that has been redrawn or compiled with reference to Ordnance Survey maps but are not exact or facsimile copies and do not look like the Ordnance Survey maps. Redrawn mapping includes mapping that has been reproduced by another publisher from Ordnance Survey material, for example, Geographers’ A-Z Map Co Ltd, Estate Publications, Philip’s and so on. So you might not be able to look at a map and use it as a reference either - even if it looks nothing like the original - and even if it's published by the Scout Association (provided they did get licensed OS data) - if you read that passage the way I did.Richard B 15:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

We're close to being on the same page, but not quite. As I read this quote you posted here, there is a key phrase - "with reference to." My lay opinion suggests that this refers to the underlying geo-data, not the fact that is being expressed by it. So, you would still have to find a free-license source for your underlying geo-data (political boundaries, rivers, streets, etc.) but once you have found that, you could still put a little star on top of 10 Downing Street, or shade in Cumbria county, or whatever you want. In my book, that's the key difference between the "fact" and the "map." So, using the SA description (visual or written) isn't the issue. It's that we need a free-licensed geo-data "canvas" upon which to draw that fact. --NThurston 16:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

May I suggest Wikipedia:Blank maps? Chris 04:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Totin' Chip

I was looking at this article, and wondered if it might be better served as a section of a Scoutcraft (Boy Scouts of America) article. Please leave comments at Talk:Totin' Chip -- Horus Kol Talk 06:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non-free content

I noticed that a bunch of album images I had uploaded were getting the license tag changed over the weekend. Curious as to the change, it leads me to Wikipedia:Non-free content/templates.

For the purposes of consistency and automated identification, all non-free images on English Wikipedia must be directly tagged with a template that begins with the prefix "Non-free". This will enable automated tools to detect such images by matching on the wikitext for the regex "\{\{[Nn]on-free" or by consulting the templatelinks table in the database. Machine readability is required by the Wikimedia foundation licensing policy.

It would appear that this would then apply to Scoutlogo. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I received this on my talkpage:

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Union of Brazilian Scouts logo.png

Thanks for uploading Image:Union of Brazilian Scouts logo.png. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. —Remember the dot ^(talk) 21:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Are they kidding? Does this mean they will now require separately written rationales on each of the 400+ Scout logos now currently in use on Wikipedia articles, which already have what they call a "boilerplate" disclaimer? Chris 22:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I suppose I've been cheating a bit. The last images I've uploaded, I have done a cut and paste, essentially a boilerplate. See the talk for Image:Venturer right pocket.png. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tim Jeal's biography of B-P

Has anyone got Tim Jeal's biography of B-P and could spare the time to find and write a reference? I'm told Jeal says that B-P proposed to Rose Kerr in 1905. If someone with the book would put a reference in the Rose Kerr article, it would be appreciated. Kingbird 16:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

How about this- [3]. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I was hoping someone would volunteer a reference directly from the book. Kingbird 17:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Wim has a copy, I think.Rlevse 20:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Yep, got the book, read it three times now, and wrote the Tim Jeal article as well as the Baden-Powell (book). (Much better read, btw, than Kiernan, which I just don't seem to be able to finish). Don't these articles provide enough detail? Do you want the page number (348), you mean? Or just confirmation that B-P did propose to miss Gough (yes)? Jeal deduces that it was probably on 9 December, the date that his courting her was abruptly ended. Success with the Kerr article. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

Thanks, Wim. Page 348 in which edition? Kingbird 18:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, all editions have the same pagination. I used the Pimlico edition of 1991. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

Thank you. That's all I need. Kingbird 20:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scout Hall

I found this article, it's actually an unrelated article, but isn't that what you chaps ;) call Scout meeting facilities in Britain and Australia and so on? If so, shouldn't this be a disambig page, or have something to qualify the name? Chris 11:11, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. I thought there was some discussion last year on this when someone suggested an article on Scout Den, but I can not find it now. The current article is very brief. I'm not sure what we do about this one. --Bduke 12:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe in Australia but in UK it's Scout Hut.Biscit 12:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

It is Scout Hut in some places and Scout Hall in others, but we still have a problem whether we have an article on it. I think not. It should be included in other articles. --Bduke 12:29, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ScoutingWikiProject on 21st WSJ

In about two months the 21st World Scout Jamboree will open. I'm wondering if any project members will take part? Are there questions worth checking (or tasks being done) during the WSJ? --jergen 18:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Participants

Please include status on WSJ (participant, troop staff, IST, contingent staff) and helpful equiment (camera, notebook, ...).

• jergen - IST from Germany - digicam (?)
• NThurston - not attending, but parent of participants & home-front support getting crew ready
• mathboy965 - Participant from USA - notebook

[edit] Questions and tasks

Please sign so that answers reach the right person.

• Official translations of NSO's names into English? --jergen

Reminder. Any wishes? --jergen 20:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes please! Please get a badge, a photo of a badge, or a physical description of a badge, for the newest WOSM members which joined in September 2005, Guinea and Malawi. If you can get actual badges I will trade or reimburse; if a photo or description we can have the GraphicsLab clean them up or create them. Thanks, brother! Chris 04:12, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, again see if you can find if maybe we have Iran mislabeled as being part of the Arab Region, when it should be A-P. Chris 04:25, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

You're back! How was it? What did you find out? :) Chris 00:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stupid Bots

I've started going through these articles and fixing the FU rationale on the images beofre the bots get to them.

Alabama  • Alaska  • Arizona  • Arkansas  • California  • Colorado  • Connecticut  • Delaware  • Florida  • Georgia  • Hawaii  • Idaho  • Illinois  • Indiana  • Iowa  • Kansas  • Kentucky  • Louisiana  • Maine  • Maryland  • Massachusetts  • Michigan  • Minnesota  • Mississippi  • Missouri  • Montana  • Nebraska  • Nevada  • New Hampshire  • New Jersey  • New Mexico  • New York  • North Carolina  • North Dakota  • Ohio  • Oklahoma  • Oregon  • Pennsylvania  • Rhode Island  • South Carolina  • South Dakota  • Tennessee  • Texas  • Utah  • Vermont  • Virginia  • Washington  • West Virginia  • Wisconsin  • Wyoming

Washington, D.C. (District of Columbia)

--evrik ^(talk) 18:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

THank you!Rlevse 20:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

• No, thank you. I see you have been very active in this. --evrik ^(talk) 16:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

Does anyone know where in the Wikipedia:Archived delete debates all the articles we lost in the mass purge were listed? --evrik ^(talk) 21:15, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Somehow this question got lost in Rlevse's archival earlier. I'm still interested. --evrik ^(talk) 20:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

What articles specifically and when were they purged? If you know the names, that'd be awesome.Rlevse 22:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] logo request template

I have created {{reqScoutlogo}} for national Guide and Scout emblems we still lack, over 100. I haven't got all the kinks work out, but please, give it a visit. Chris 22:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Betacommand bot's plans

If you'd like to know what this bot is up to, see WP:AN#BetacommandBot_and_Fair_use. Rlevse 16:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philly eviction

I read the wikinews article on a potential eviction of the Scouts in Philadelphia from their Scout building. As I read it, simply because city council and BSA management disagree on the (non)allowance of homosexual people to participate in Scouting. No wonder Scouting is controversial in the US. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC).

It's called political correctness and it's insanely run amok in America. Rlevse 21:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Or its called the government which is meant to be for all the people not encouraging discrimination against some of its people on grounds of religion or sexual orientation by subsidizing organizations that discriminate on those grounds. Note the Philly Scouts like the Sea Scouts in Berkeley will probably be able to pay the standard rate and stay. In either case this argument does not belong on the talk pages of wikipedia. I would look at http://www.religioustolerance.org/bsa.htm which contains an overview and links to multiple sides in the controversy.--Erp 00:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Also known as one person's rights outweighing the rights of 99 people's rights.Rlevse 01:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Girl Guides - dab or stub?

Some days ago I modified Girl Guides from a Wikipedia:Disambiguation to a Wikipedia:Stub. In the weeks before two users changed all links linking to Girl Guides to any of the mentioned meanings - in both cases with little knowledge of the subject.

Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links states that dab pages should not be linked to and that links should go directly to the appropriate article. This is executed by the project mentioned on Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links - with about 330 pages linking to Girl Guides it was one of the Top 10 linked dab pages. When I came upon this project I decided to change Girl Guides to a stub-like article, thus preventing changes on pages linking it.

Rlevse asked me to discuss this change within the project (cf. User talk:Jergen#Girl Guides 2). As far as I can see there are two possibilities for the future status of Girl Guides:

• Disambiguation. This means that all pages linking it must be changed to the matching article; sometimes this may be more than one articles.
• Stub/article. Then the article needs further content and it would surely repeat partly the contents of Scouting.

Comments? --jergen 16:56, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The same issue exists with Boy Scouts, just fewer articles link directly to it and we'd have to change our written policy (see chart) at the top of this page. Rlevse 17:15, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Boy Scouts has only two article links - but we should clean up the links to Boy Scout. Many pages linking it do not refer to the section but to the movement or a national organisation (mostly the BSA). --jergen 17:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I wish I could give some insight on this-if the policy is that you cannot link to a disambig, then external editors will keep misrouting our links, so it is better to at least have a stub or article, even if most of it is copies and modified to feminine from masculine. Chris 05:10, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I can see both sides to this. I'd like more input.Rlevse 11:07, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• I say {{disambig}} --evrik ^(talk) 20:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

  So you are going to check and fix the 330 links? --jergen 06:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• Nope. But maybe we can get the page protected? --evrik ^(talk) 18:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
  • That is not the purpose of page protection.Rlevse 20:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
    • There has been plenty of time for input on this, we should leave it as Jergen suggests, except I made Girl Guide and Girl Scout redirect to Girl Guide and Girl Scout, following our pattern of the singular being about the individual youth, not the organization, which still leaves Girl Guides as a stub.Rlevse 23:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

      I agree, but am not totally happy with changing the redirects: Articles linking Girl Scout or Girl Guide usually refer to the worldwide movement or to a national organization. (BTW: It's the same with Boy Scouts.) It would be easier, if these redirects linked to Girl Guides and were checked once every two months. --jergen 19:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scout troop

Sister and brother Scouts and Scouters- I made Scout troop a separate article, as

a) it was buried in "troop", and doesn't need to be something one hunts for past military and state patrols, and

b) I did not put it in BSA as it is not strictly relegated to the United States. Each country has troops, and my hope is to expand the article to include structures from different countries, and different outlooks, be it "troop", "troup", "otryad"...; male, female or co-ed; with or without patrols...

Please will you give the article a look and add specifics, differences or facts from your own country of organization?

Thanks, yours in Scouting, Chris 06:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I have given it a clean up. --Egel _Reaction? 11:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weird question

Hi folks, I just thought of a weird one-is WOSM as an acronym ever pronounced as a word, like NASA is often said NAS-uh? Or is it always said W-O-S-M, like U-S-A? Chris 05:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

In The Netherlands it is pronounced as a word, otherwise the SM sounds too much like Sadism and Masochism. WAGGGS is pronounced as a word too.--Egel _Reaction? 07:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The same in German - and if each letter of WAGGGS was pronounced, everybody had to count the Gs... --jergen 08:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

In America, yes to both, they sound like WOZ-UM and WAGS. Rlevse 12:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kudos to Graphics Lab

Sisters and Brothers, The folks at Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Images to improve are doing something huge to preserve the history of some of the smaller, dormant or banned Scout organizations. Whoever issues barnstars, can we give these great friends a Scouting barnstar for their work? Chris 05:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

done.Rlevse 12:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Wikipedians who survived Philmont

This is up for deletion. It is not an article so I brought it here. The discussion is at Wikipedia:User categories for discussion#Category:Wikipedians who survived Philmont. --Bduke 09:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Just relaised that Category:Wikipedians who survived ROCS is there too. --Bduke 09:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for modification to the {{Scoutlogo}} template

I would ask that we make a modification to the template, for defunct or out-of-copyright Scouting insignia-those being worked on at Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Images to improve are between 20 and 45 years out of use, so they may actually not have copyright holders any longer, but the issue is raised of need. Chris 21:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Nthurston is our template coding expert. Wim is very good too.Rlevse 23:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words, Randy. I however would like to approach this issue from a different angle: if a picture is free from copyright, it should be tagged as such, e.g., as public domain, and not as (non-free scout logo), which is by definition non-free. Why would you want to put a {{scoutlogo}} tag on it at all: that isn't applicable anymore then. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC).

Good point.Rlevse 20:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, the thing is, it may be defunct but may not yet be copyright free. All I am saying is, like there are the BSA subsections, there should be an extra section for emblems that are not now in use. Chris 22:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'm probably not seeing 'it': what is the subsection that you'd like to see, then? 'defunct'? 'not-yet-free'? notinuse? And what should the resulting distinction from the standard template then be? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:04, 2 July 2007 (UTC).

Something that would change the wording in use to something like "This is an emblem or logo for a Scout association that no longer exists or is dormant, but is useful for Wikipedia for historical purposes. The copyright may or may not still be valid." Chris 05:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Aha, now I think I understand your request. But the point is that {{scoutlogo}} is a copyright tag, and whether an organization has disappeared or become dormant or whether the said logo is not any longer in use, does not change the copyright at all. On the contrary: copyrights are explicitly stated to remain valid under such conditions. At the end of organizations, rights of all kinds (property, copyrights, etc) don't disappear but get move to a person or other organization. This is murky waters indeed. At least for copyright by persons, death is a clear moment in time to start counting up to 2.2 billion seconds. Bottomline is that I therefore think is not appropriate to change the copyright tag. I propose that the current state of the owner of the copyright can be described in the running text of the image. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 12:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC).

I think Wim has it. The preference is to use {{Non-free media rationale}} in the image description; this information could be place under the Other information field. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vietnamese Wikipedia on Scouting

User:Motthoangwehuong has done a great job tripling the size of our article on Scouting in Vietnam, and is singlehandedly writing the Scout articles on the Vietnamese Wikipedia, thus far he has done the Scout Law, Scout Handbook, WOSM, BP, reef knot, and articles on VN Scouting both in-country and in-exile! Chris 06:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, excellent improvement. I raised it to a B-class, but it still needs clean up.Rlevse 10:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weird fact

Okay, I'm going through and describing the details on each national Scout and Guide emblem. The most common theme? Palm trees. I have counted at least a dozen. Sleep well. ;) Chris 06:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell as August 1's TFA

I've just added Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell to the Today's features article Date requests for August 1, that being the same day as the first Scout Camp, since it was already in the general queue. It'll need support to solidify being put up then, so if you want to see Baden-Powell on the front page on August 1st, go over and voice your opinion. JQF • Talk • Contribs 20:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Asociación de Guías Scouts de Bolivia

For some reason the coding on this one infobox will not accept the graphic, can someone help? Chris 18:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. JQF • Talk • Contribs 14:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Chris 21:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

This same coding problem is happening at Asociación de Muchachas Guías de Panamá. Chris 06:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. --jergen 08:41, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not sure where this is best placed...

...but Baden-Powell Award is currently in disastrous shape, and being associated with this group (As far as I can tell), I wanted to give some notice of this. Also, it's not linked any where... Thanx, 68.39.174.238 17:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks- checking 'what links here' helped me to place it. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brownsea Island Scout camp as TFA for August 2nd?

Seeing as Baden Powell is being requested to be a TFA for August 1st, and the recently FAed Brownsea Island Scout camp has be forwarded as a possible alternate choice, I say why not try the second for August 2nd, as the first camp (which will be on it's hundredth anniversary) was from August 1-8. It'll need a request blurb first, but that shouldn't be a big issue. The next question is are there any other FA status we should try to have put up after that. The first two that come to mind are the Wood Badge and the Baden-Powell House articles, both of which are current FAs. What do people think? JQF • Talk • Contribs 23:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Done.Rlevse 23:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, it's an official request now, for any day August 1-8 after Baden Powell, with a preference for August 8 to mark the last day of the first scout camp. It'll need support, so if you want to see it TFA , go give it your support. JQF • Talk • Contribs 15:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non-free Scoutlogo

As many of you may have noticed, a bot started editing images, changing the Scoutlogo template to Non-free Scoutlogo. This broke the category system. Rlevse simply moved Scoutlogo to Non-free Scoutlogo, so hopefully this nonsense will stop. I have updated WPS:IMAGE to reflect the new template. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Will we need to go in and manually change each? Chris 20:01, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes. The bot did not account for templates that use parameters, so the BSA images bumped up to the Scouting logo cat and it added non-existent cats based on the parameter. Randy and I have cleaned up all but 43 images left in Category:BSAC (click on this to open it as an edit). We still need to go back and apply the template to the images in Category:Scouting logos, as it removed the template and replaced it with the category. I do believe we need the template back, as I would not be surprised if the categories need to be renamed. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Eagle Scouts

I have nominated Category:Eagle Scouts and one of its subcategories for listifying and deletion. I am absolutely certain that people here will disagree, but I thought that I would notify this WikiProject anyway. (This really could be handled in a list much better, with dates, references, and other information.) Dr. Submillimeter 13:57, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your courtesy. I think the list that you have in mind already exists as List of Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America). Kingbird 16:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't be deleted, but that's another story.Rlevse 16:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I also noted on the CfD that the Fictional Eagle Scout cat can go as well since it is already on Scouting in popular culture. Might as well clear it all out. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:11, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

What's really interesting is that they think this is not worthy of a cat, but all those "year of birth/death" cats are more significant.Rlevse 20:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Raging debate at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 July 20 Rlevse 01:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Interesting. See my comment there.Sumoeagle179 01:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pdf file to text

Does anyone know how if at all it is possible to convert a pdf file to its textual component? Thanks! Chris 05:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is possible, when there is text in in the pdf, but some pdf's are just a set of pictures. Search for pdftohtml, pdf2html, pdftotxt, pdf2word etc. I know this one works: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdftohtml/ --Egel _Reaction? 07:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I have Acrobat Pro 8.0 at work. Let me know if I can help with something specific. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I found a series of pdf files that have each Guide Motto in multiple languages, with all the diacritical marks in the right locations, which will save hours of typing and making sure we don't make typos. This information is both published by WAGGGS and public domain without copyright. Chris 21:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

If it is online, or you can email it to me, I can work on it next week. I'm Scouting this weekend! --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, e-mailed you them! :) Chris 21:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scout logo template, fairuse, etc

After six days of work using AWB, I've now gone through the Scout logos category fixing the mess that bot made (see item 2 under announcements), adding fair use rationales since I was in that cat anyway, and generally fixing up things. There are 740+ images in it. PLus there was the day Gadget850 and I fixed the subcats with all the BSA images, an additional few hundred. I'm sure I made mistakes (like putting less than 300px vice greater than), but things are in far better shape. I found two BSA images missing the BSA options, DOZENS of images missing the GGGS-task-force tag, etc. Several images need better sources, for some I just had to put "website", which won't cut it, but things are much better and the bots shouldn't be giving us as much headaches, esp if we use the FUR template Gadget850 has worked on. See his neat updates to our Manual of Style.Rlevse 10:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Until the next thing the bots and their non-Scout-but-know-better-than-us-somehow masters find some fresh horror to plague us with... Chris 21:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Really, GEEZ, the image, cat and bot cabalists will drive everyone off wiki before long.Rlevse 21:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

{{Non-free media rationale}} has been moved to {{Non-free use rationale}} to make the name shorter. I guess we now call it Non-FUR. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

??Doesn't that only save two characters? Rlevse 22:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] B-P on Main Page

B-P's article will be one the Main Page on 1 Aug, the 100th annivesary of Scouting (see announcement section). The Brownsea article didn't get selected for any day of the anniversary week, which I expected as they don't like related topics close in time on the main page. But happy the founder of the world's largest youth movement made it on the anniversary date. It will assuredly be heavily vandalized. I suggest just letting it run and when it is over, review for good edits and revert the rest. Rlevse 15:30, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey gang, I know I've been away for quite some time, but I would like to congradulate everyone who helped to make the BP page into a featured article! It also looks like there has been a heck of a lot of progress in the Scouting Wikiproject as a whole. Good job to all of you! --Naha|^(talk) 15:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scout Motto redux, please help clean up before I add the table

Hi folks, please check out Talk:Scout Motto, there was no structure to the original list, so I made it a table. I just can't figure out what to do with Esperanto (Estu preta), Interlingua (Sempre Preste), and Uighur (Tayyar Bol). Should a "language" column be added, maybe right after country? Chris 07:45, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi again, I am trying (and not yet successful) to incorporate a faded text for languages we still don't have. There is a table at the article Wallis and Futuna which uses the text style="color:#aaaaaa;" to make the parts of the box that still need inclusion a light grey, like most software that when you get to a function you can't use at that moment, it disables the dropdown but still allows it to be seen. Can anyone help with the coding? Chris 23:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

You mean like what I just tried? Rlevse 23:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Randy! What I mean is not where the box itself is greyed out, just so the request please add x language variant shows up in pale grey. Chris 23:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the phrase please add x language variant anywhere in the table. Put it somewhere so we know what you're talking about.Rlevse 23:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for being unclear-x simply represents the distinct name of the language-follow the American Samoa row across and you will see it. Chris 00:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You should have said it was commented out in the code, not visible in the table in a browser.Rlevse 00:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I did already apologize for being unclear. Your new edit is closer, but the box color needs to stay the same as all others, only the text in the box should be faint grey, not red. Thanks! Chris 00:51, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Got it figured out, thanks for pointing me in the right direction! Chris 02:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Would you all take a look at it, as it is now? If there are no objections, I will move it into article space. With the exception of a couple, all the languages lacking are not widely spoken and would take forever, though I have put requests at each language page, national page, project page, and where I can find native speakers. Chris 09:55, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GGGS Request

Anyone that has a copy of Trefoil Round the World, please fill in the Girl Guide and Girl Scout histories, as many of them are stubs. Chris 04:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scouting 2007 Centenary

I have 18 photos of Tidewater’s “Sunrise of Scouting” ceremony, which celebrated the 100th anniversary of Scouting. This was done at 8am local time all over the world today. Aug 1, 1907 was when Baden-Powell began the first Scout campout at Brownsea Island, England.

They are on my flickr site here

and on wikicommons here

Feel free to pass this on and use the photos for Scouting purposes if you like. Rlevse 18:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] please help

Administrator's Commons have delete image: Image:Olave St Clair Soames.jpg, please help me I'dont speak englishSzumyk 08:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I've got our image expert looking into it.Rlevse 10:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks hopeless, but our image expert just found us a free one and I just put it on commons and changed the article.Rlevse 21:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scouting in Spain

Okay, so the deletionists destroyed the worldwide gallery of Scout and Guide emblems, so I have made smaller, country specific galleries for national articles. Now they're saying we can't have them on the country specific ones? Someone has to put a stop to this madness. Chris 06:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

That's a victim of the long ongoing debate on one's definition of "replaceable". I don't like it either but as you know those who think if you're alive and in jail in deepest Tibet, you're photo can be easily obtained and hence a non-free image of you is "easily replaceable" now have the upper hand.Rlevse 10:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The issue with Scouting in Spain is not replaceability, it is the use of non-free images in a gallery. The policy here is Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria (NFCC). As I see it, there are several issues with such a gallery in that article. The appropriate NFCC references in question here are:

• 3(a) Minimal use. As little non-free content as possible is used in an article
• 8 Significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic

The images in question were the seven emblems of the Scouting associations in Spain, placed in a gallery at the end of the article. The real question, is how does the *gallery* enhance the article? In my opinion, it does nothing to aid the reader in understanding the subject.

Now- each image would be perfectly acceptable to illustrate the articles for each association. A problem here is that you don't have those articles yet, and per NFCC 7 (One-article minimum), those orphaned images are going to be deleted. One fix for that would be to start stubs for each article and include the image so it does not get deleted; else you will have to upload it again when you do get to that article. You could even write an article on "Emblems of Spanish Scouting associations" where you describe the meaning of each emblem. But, you simply cannot use non-free images in a gallery.

Now, I will defer to B here, but I have been following much of his work lately and I think I have a pretty good sense of how this works. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The user who deleted it said in his summary his reason was number 8, which is replacability. I'm glad you and B understand this stuff because I only have the most basic grasp of the image rules and complexities.Rlevse 16:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I will put this in my dispute at that article as well-it's the same reason we put the coat-of-arms on each national article, or every coin in a series on national money pages-the images themselves tell a non-verbal story, about what the Scouts say about themselves. The emblems are every bit as important to the topic as anything else. That's the same reason we have heraldry, even today's corporate branding-the visual depiction that represents a group has all sorts of nested meanings that can't simply be physically described. Chris 18:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

That is quite true, to a point. The root problem in Scouting in Spain is that just having those images in a gallery at the end of the article does nothing to enhance the article in and of itself. You need to clearly tie each image to the text of the article in some manner; this would apply even to free images. As it is, it appears that they are in the article purely for decoration. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:00, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Point well taken, and in total agreement. The problem was, in each of the national articles, when we _did_ previously have the images married to the individual orgs, for countries where there is more than one org, we were accused of using the images for decoration at that point, but told that a small gallery would be acceptable. We need to come up with a bit in the MoS for this. Chris 18:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

That makes no sense to me; can you point me to the talk on that? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I wish I could remember where that is parked, as it didn't make any sense to me either, seeing as the larger gallery was deleted. Essentially the gist was, I asked the rabid deletionists, in what form they would leave the images alone, and I was told that a gallery was more acceptable than putting the logos adjacent to the org name in multiple listings. Chris 19:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] templates and Scouting WP:MoS

User JQF keeps changing the formatting of Template:InteramericanScout. I understand wanting to align this template with Wiki formats, but I am reverting it again and will keep reverting it, as we specifically made this and related templates to match other Scout boxes, rather than some generic Wiki navbox template. The regional boxes at Category:WikiProject Scouting templates are not meant to be left-justified, or collapsible, to be tucked out-of-the-way, they are not clutter in an article, but part of it. Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Templates doesn't say anything one way or another, but I propose we keep them all the same way, for consistency sake. Chris 07:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The Scouting templates need to be consistent, whatever form that takes, don't change them at all or change all of them. If this becomes more of an issue, it needs to be discussed first. As for the tweaks Jergen made, please have done to all templates in that group.Rlevse

I agree. If we need changes to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Templates, then please do so, or discuss it on that talk page. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] mergefrom WikiProject Philmont Scout Ranch

As WikiProject Philmont Scout Ranch seems to have been inactive since the turn of the year, I propose making it a taskforce of this project, similar to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting task force. That will ensure it won't get deleted (the WP:Council has been cleaning out inactive projects in recent months) and it will standardize that project with our existing MoS and membership base. Chris 07:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

That seems sensible if it is inactive. You are right that htere is a purge on inactive Projects. --Bduke 08:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I have always considered a subproject of us. I think the task force is a good idea,but I don't know the mechanics of deleting/purging a project. They were very inactive last year too.Rlevse 11:06, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Probably the easiest way would be to set up the task force, notify all editors involved with the project and then put the project to MfD for deletion. The talk page (where incidently I see someone has just replied to a post on 20 December 2005!) could be added to the Scouting Project talk archives. I see nothing on the Philmont Project page that is transcluded except for templates and userboxes. The content would largely be moved to the task force page. --Bduke 11:15, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Instead of a deletion MfD, could the participants not simply be notified, and then move Wikipedia:WikiProject Philmont Scout Ranch into the space Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Philmont Scout Ranch task force? That would keep the edit and move history intact. Chris 19:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I have now notified all six listed members, of which, only JohnTex still seems active. I have directed them to this talk. I think it would not be unreasonable to be bold and move this ourselves after a bit of time. Chris 20:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree. I think a move would be appropriate. --Bduke 22:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea. DarthGriz98 23:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Another good idea, i'd say go ahead and be bold. Since the vast majority of the participants appear to be inactive, why don't we save the project before it is deleted.-MBK004 23:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with that, but merging a project, albeit a defunct one, is a major change, so I think we should wait at least a day or two.Rlevse 23:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

It's probably best to wait a few days, as you said; but, if none of the listed members are active, there shouldn't be any problems with a unilateral move. Kirill 00:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the change would be a good idea. Zybthranger 01:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Everyone agrees, so I'm working on this. Chris' idea of just moving the pages and putting the templates and userboxes in with ours is the best.Rlevse 01:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm mostly done. See note on announcement section. I asked Gadget850 to incorporate their boxes and templates and Chris to notify project people. Let me know if I missed something.Rlevse 02:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I double checked- I had already included the Philmont templates and userboxes in WPS:TEMP and WPS:USER. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I've notified five-including L1am who became user:Leki, and skipped JohnTex, who I am sure by now knows of the move. ;) Chris 07:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Template moved from talk pages. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 07:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philmont task force coordinator

Hello, Rlevse asked me if I would be interested in being the coordinator of the Philmont Scout Ranch. I am honored and I would be happy to do it if that is OK with everyone.

My qualifications:

Long-time Scouter

Multiple Philmont treks

Active Wikipedian (2+ years editing, 16,000+ edits, admin bit, one FA)

My anti-qualifications (reasons why someone else may do better than I)

I sometimes have to take unexpected wiki-breaks

Even when I'm on Wikipedia I have a lot of interests so I go off in lots of directions.

I feel like I've contributed some to the Philmont articles but I can't say I've dived into them with two feet.

If selected I will do my best. Johntex\^talk 02:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• Support. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support Chris 03:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support. DarthGriz98 03:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Doing your best is all anyone can expect.Rlevse 09:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Zybthranger 21:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support. -MBK004 21:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Kingbird 21:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
• Now you are going to have to do a "disclosure" on the next CfD. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rules and standards

Arising from the MfD debate about Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Merging, moving and deleting articles, I propose the following changes to names of and in some of our sub-pages:

• Rename Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/RulesStandards to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Project editing conventions.
• Change the link to the above in the main info box from "Manual of style" to "Project editing conventions".
• Change the first header of the the above from "WikiProject Scouting Conventions and Guidelines" to "WikiProject Scouting editing conventions".
• Change "WikiProject Scouting Conventions and Guidelines" in the green background box to "WikiProject Scouting editing conventions".

I think I have them all, but you get the point. I believe this will satisfy the concerns raised by that MfD proposal and also that they are indeed better and clearer.--Bduke 23:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I can live with this. OK by me.Rlevse 23:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

OK by me. I will take this on, but will wait a day or so to gain consensus. This was where I was trying to go, but I don't think the headers were really his hot button. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree about waiting a day or two. --Bduke 00:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks good to me, and I'd additionally recommend moving that text to a template. Sticking the same header on a dozen pages looks like a template job. >Radiant< 08:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I propose that we go ahead at once and make these changes as User:Radiant! is happy and will close the MfD. Do you want me to do it or can you do it, Ed), as you are very familiar with where everything is? I'm happy to assist. --Bduke 09:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Ed, Brian, Randy, you guys are gentlemen and I applaud your cool heads. I sit at the feet of the masters. I have to, else I'll never make it when I finally get to Japan. ;) Chris 09:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposal: If an admin does it, it'll preserve the page histories and such. So my proposal is to let Bduke do it as his first admin job since he's a BRAND NEW ADMIN. See my tools notes here for help: User:Rlevse/Tools and always feel free to ask for help.Rlevse 10:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

What step needs an admin? The only step that is not an edit is the first. That is a move, which anyone can do. When I'm clear that I am not mising something, I'll start the process, but I may not get it all done. I'm going to be busy in the next three days. It is eveing here (9.00 p.m.). Tomorrow my wife returns from an overseas trip around noon. Over the weekend I am working on a stall at the museum for Science Week. I may have to leave the rest for Ed. --Bduke 11:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, I goofed that one.;)Rlevse 12:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

What move- I must have missed something here. I can do the template pretty quickly. I will be out on vacation from this weekend through next week, so my activity will be limited. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Point 1: Rename Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/RulesStandards to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Project editing conventions. That is a move. If you could do the template and add it to the page we have just been fighting over, I'll then add it to others. --Bduke 12:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I've done points 2 and 3, but not the actual links in point 3 that need point 1 doing first. --Bduke 12:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I have done the move in point 1 and corrected what became redirects in point 3. I think I have caught all the substantive redirects (not in talk pages etc.). I see Ed has done the template. We just need to check it is in place. I'll do that tomorrow. Must go to bed. --Bduke 13:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

{{ScoutConventions}} is now up. I included a shortcut parameter, but since the shortcuts are going away, I need to figure out how to use it. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

BTW- the template places the page in Category:WikiProject Scouting templates. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:49, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Look at WP:MILHIST and how they did shortcuts. They are WP:... and seem to point to similar items as ours, but maybe no one has discovered them yet and rfd'd them.Rlevse 13:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes- I saw that and have been considering it, but they have a single page of "guidelines." BTW- I just noted that we are not the only project with multipage guides. I really want to figure this, as I uses the shortcuts daily. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:49, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Got it. It appears my usage of "WPS:" was outside the pale. I'm going to go with "WP:S-" and use the same shortcut names. If I had understood, I would have simply moved the shortcuts and put the old ones up for speedy RfD. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

MILHIST actually has multiple pages, you just have to click on links in that main page. And yes, others do too as you said.Rlevse 14:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, new messagebox template, new shortcuts and WP:S-EDT all updated. If anyone has issues with the shortcuts, we can add more. I also moved moved Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Fair use rationale to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Non-free media rationale. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It is all looking good. Well done, Ed. You have left me nothing to do this morning! I had not noticed the RfD at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion#WPS: until late yesterday. My opinion on the redirects is that we have too many. I would prefer we only had them for the links that would be widely used. For the others people are likely to go there via WP:S-EDT, so really only that one is needed, but I will not press the point. --Bduke 22:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

True- I might have gotten a bit overzealous on shortcuts. I use the ref and cite page, the image page and the non-free rationale frequently, and the userbox and template pages occasionally. I just remembered to add the new template to the list. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your time. >Radiant< 09:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brownies

Can someone (a admin?) take a look at Brownie (Girl Guides), User:WOBBLEMAN (and User:88.108.95.228) is trying to make a mess out of it. --Egel _Reaction? 11:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Took me a moment to see the problem. WOBBLEMAN simply created a new page Brownie (Girl and Boy Guides)) and redirected Brownie (Girl Guides) to it, thus loosing the edit history. If anything, it should have been properly moved to Brownie (Scouting). There does seem to been some edit squabbling there as well; this seems like a bad faith redirect, but it could just be ignorance of methods. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Are there any Brownie groups with boys?Rlevse 18:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there are; eg in Belgium, Brazil, Cyprus, Germany and Greece. --jergen 18:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

In the Netherlands are Brownie-sections with boys, but maybe 1 boy on 100 girls. I don't think it is much different in other counties except in some co-ed WAGGGS-only organisations like Greece, Argentia or Brazil. Brownies is basicly a girly thing, there are far less boy Brownies then there are girl Cubs. --Egel _Reaction? 19:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Between several of us I think we've cleaned this up. Rlevse 18:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Just as a curiosity, in AGESCI there can be boy Brownies, but there aren't many.

--Lou Crazy 22:40, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject_Scouting/Assessment#Importance_scale

A lot of our new BSA bios (thanks for those) are being rated a high when by our own standards they rate no more than a mid. Please remember that while BSA is a big dog, it is not the only big dog on the block, and that most of these folks do not have notability outside a single Scout organization, and are not any more notable than characters elsewhere. Chris 02:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to change them.Rlevse 02:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox option

Per Chris' request, the project template now has a "needs infobox" option. To add it just add "|needs-infobox=yes" to the template on an article's talk page.Rlevse 10:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

This will add the article to the new Category:Scouting articles needing an infobox cat.Rlevse 10:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! I tried it, it doesn't generate an "attention" tag or categorization or anything like that, can that be fixed? Chris 02:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Your probably had a typo. See sample that works here: User:Rlevse/sandbox.Rlevse 02:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, yeah, I was missing the hyphen. I need to learn to read the whole sente... ;) Chris 02:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scout bio infobox thought

Okay, now that I am thinking about it, would a Scout bio infobox, something like {{Infobox Military Person}} be worthwhile? Chris 02:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

What do we need that is not in {{Infobox Person}}? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the "Known for known_for" parameter is enough to cover what we would use it for. Someone could be founder of a Scout camp, hold multiple offices and awards, and in turn be presented some award by the Queen herself, which would require more parameters. I don't specifically know. It's like the world Scouting infobox-we started not really knowing what we needed, but built as the need showed itself. Anyway it was just a thought and I wanted to see what others thought. I'm not saying we need infobox creep or admin paranoia or whatever it was called last week, just my 23,780 lira. Chris 02:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

No that was a serious question- what DO we need? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm still thinking about this, haven't forgotten. Chris 07:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notice of complaint

A complaint has been filed in regards to a BSA related mediation cabal case. The complainant apparently wishes to re-open the mediation cabal case as well. Johntex\^talk 21:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The mediation was closed 10 months ago. If he had a problem with you, he should have brought it up then, not almost a year later.Rlevse 22:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, that would be my thinking as well. I just wanted the project members to be aware of the situation. Other WP:Scouting members were also party to the mediation attempt. Johntex\^talk 00:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

You guys know I'm generally willing to discuss things, but I simply cannot fathom the point of his latest addition to the BSA article. If he adds it again, my opinion is to delete it and take it to arb for disruption. It needs to be deleted since it does pretty much state that a living person is a liar. Whatever we do, please do not be uncivil. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Should there not be a statute of limitations? If you look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Heqwm this editor hasn't been on for near a year. At the very least, his addition is in the wrong article anyway. Chris 01:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Last update before the discussion was archived. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

It is in permanent archive 289, Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive289#Johntex.27s_dishonesty_.28BSA.29 hereRlevse 20:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] sv:Wikipedia:Projekt scouting

A user has just added the Swedish twin to our project, did we not used to have links for the French and German projects as well, on the mainpage? Chris 21:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Yep, must have been lost in some edit. I'll look in the histories. Or maybe that was the portal.Rlevse 21:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

found them already, reposted.Rlevse 21:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Turns out the others were not linked to each other, so I have done it. Chris 09:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Linguists?

I was just thinking, just as we list who among us is an admin or good at graphics and legalities and so on, perhaps we should list who is fluent in other languages, if there is information to be translated. I know many of our European brothers and sisters are multilingual, should we list that for translation help? Chris 22:16, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. Where should be put this? On a separate page or what?Rlevse 00:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

My first thought was on the mainpage, I don't want to get it buried, nor cause "advinistrative creep", whatever that was. The section you have as "Goals and Scope" was where I was seeing-you see where there's "Coordinators", then under that is "Scouting WikiProject members who are Wikipedia Admins", perhaps under that should be "Resources" or something. I don't know how you want to word it. It may be a good idea, or it may get buried, to put it next to members' names at Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Members, using (Japanese) and so forth. Chris 00:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Thus far I have

• Anakmadiun – (Indonesian)
• Egel – (Dutch)
• IngaAusa – (Icelandic)
• Jergen – (German)
• Mang kiko – (Tagalog)
• J.Mayooresan – (Tamil)
• Motthoangwehuong – (Vietnamese)
• Wim van Dorst – (Dutch)
• Yarko – (Ukrainian)

but I think it should be somewhere in a separate place (I suggest the mainpage as before) as it gets buried in the list of members. Also, do we have any French-speakers? Chris 20:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I put it in its own section on the members page and forced a TOC. Let's try that.Rlevse 11:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I can help with German to some extent if needed.--The Founders Intent 01:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sucession box template

I just created {{tl|S-Scout}} {{S-npo}} for use with succession boxes. Currently, it only supports Scouting, Boy Scouts of America and Girl Scouts of the USA headers, but it is quite simple to add more. An example:

Boy Scouts of America
Preceded by Roy Williams	Chief Scout Executive 2007	Incumbent

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Due to an improper formatting (using an upper-cased S in scouting) and previous demand for a non-profit organization header, I have moved this template to a new Template:s-npo (non-profit organization) as one of its parameters. It acts in exactly the same manner as above but instead of typing s-Scouts you type s-npo followed by the same parameters. If a new scouting organization is necessary, add it to the list. Please note that if it is not a non-profit organization, then scouting is either a governmental or military office and should have either s-gov or s-mil. Thank you!
–Whaleyland ( Talk • Contributions ) 23:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox WorldScouting

I added a website field to {{Infobox WorldScouting}}; this is intended for official websites only. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Cool idea. Yes, official only, otherwise it'll become a quagmire.Rlevse 22:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scout Knots

All, I have created images of all of the official BSA knots that I know of. As these are public domain, these may be of benefit to articles, users pages, etc. Feel free to view the Scout Knots page on my users page to see what I have. RobHoitt 16:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Great! To me, they look different enough from the official knots that they can be used in non-articlespace areas. We already have most of the knots along with the medals and badges in Advancement and recognition in the Boy Scouts of America. I'm going to make some specific comments on the talk page. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

That's a great load of work on your part, Rob! They should be used in Square knot (emblem or insignia)! Chris 18:27, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scoutopedia?

Didn't there used to be a Scouting thing on Wikia, or similar to http://www.scoutopedia.net/w/Accueil ? Chris 18:42, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

There's a Scout wiki I think. Ask B about it.Rlevse 19:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Better ask me. There is a Scoutwiki "hub" at http://www.scoutwiki.org/ The Finsh, French and Dutch are very active. ( I'm one of the admins of the Dutch www.scoutpedia.nl ) --Egel _Reaction? 19:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow, there's way more Scout articles in Dutch and Finnish than English? How did that happen? Chris 20:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

en.scoutwiki is at the moment more or less a dump of interesting Scouting pages from en.wikipedia, it is not actively mantained. It is at the moment planned to be used as a way to make translation possible between the other languages. But if a native english-writer wants to mantain it, it can become a wiki at it own. And articles about groups are alowed. --Egel _Reaction? 22:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The Scouting Wikia moved to ScoutWiki. MeritBadge.org switched to wiki format, as did Scouting the Net. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Based on the similar format, are they all somehow tied in to Wikipedia? Chris 20:35, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

ScoutWiki and MertiBadge.org all use the MediaWiki software- see that little icon at the very bottom right of this page? Scouting the Net uses PMWiki software. Click on that icon for more info, search for "sites" for a list of site using it. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] article ticker?

It might be informative, now that I've seen where Egel sent me (thank you!), to have a counter going of how many Scouting articles we do have (at least those we know of), if that is possible, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Statistics . Just my 842 drachma. Chris 07:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Something like the chart at Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Assessment? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 10:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

You are the man, I totally missed that. :} Chris 21:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scout camps

The page Category:Local council camps (Boy Scouts of America) says that this wikiproject wants to have pages solely for states, with councils and camps merged in. Then why are there still articles on camps? If I wish to write about a camp (or more), where should I write about it? Etc., etc. Thanks. —ScouterSig 17:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

That debate comes and goes. That is why some are merged and some not. See also the RulesStandards pages (not sure where it is after Gadget850 reorganized though).Rlevse 18:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Per WP:S-BSA: "Editors are encouraged to use a top-down approach; to expand high level articles to the point where they can be split into smaller articles of good quality. Thus, a state article may beget a council article that begets a camp article." We should update the cat page with a link to the guideline. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:56, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we need to change the text on the relevant category pages to:

“

Please refer to WP:S-BSA for project guidelines on notability and layout for BSA articles at the council level and below.”

sounds good, pls do so.Rlevse 15:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Updated:

• Category:Boy Scouts of America local units
• Category:Boy Scouts of America Local Councils
• Category:Local council camps (Boy Scouts of America)

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BSA categories

While looking at the preceding, I have noted that the BSA category naming is not consistent:

"Local Councils" should be lower case, not sure about the hyphen in "America-related", and the others have Boy Scouts of America at the end. The literature cat is underpopulated. I really think we can loose Fictional Eagle Scouts. We should clean this up ourselves before one of those irritating CfDs comes around. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The hyphen should go. LC should be lower case. The ones with BSA at the end are in other Scout categories; this needs a deeper look. The lit cat only having a few--I wouldn't worry about. I'm neutral on fictional Eagle Scouts. Rlevse 11:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll fix the local council one today using AWB.Rlevse 11:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the naming conventions and at the CfD stuff, it looks like categories should be "x of y", properly it should be "Local councils of the Boy Scouts of America" and so forth. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Oops, I just started too. That's why the it's People associated with... too. I'll fix it.Rlevse 12:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The Girl Scout council cat has the same problem.Rlevse 12:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Is this okay or should we rename all the ones that start with BSA?Rlevse 13:15, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree it is best to fix ourselves rather than waiting for a CFD. I defer to Gadget850, Rlevse, etc on exactly what to change here.Sumoeagle179 15:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I knew about the GSUSA cats (and probably others), but wanted to bring this set up first. We also need to update the cats in {{Scouting}} as we change these. Note that by using <categorytree>, the cat lists at the top of the section automatically update. This looks right so far: xxx of the Boy Scouts of America. Hold off on the image cats, as those are a "technical category" and mey work a bit different. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying you want to change the 6 that still start with BSA?Rlevse 17:13, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Here is a specific list:

• Advancement and recognition of the Boy Scouts of America
• Leadership training of the Boy Scouts of America
• Literature of the Boy Scouts of America
• Local units of the Boy Scouts of America
• Local council camps of the Boy Scouts of America
• National camps of the Boy Scouts of America

• Local council camps of the Girl Scouts of the USA

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

What about BSA images?Rlevse 22:20, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(categories)#Technical_categories it looks like it would use the same format. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

anything else?Rlevse 10:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non-free use rationale

Some of you may have noticed that images using {{Non-free use rationale}} are now showing "Needs Article Name." When you edit the image page, there is no field for article. This field was just added to the template, but its addition is being discussed. I recommend that we don't get to excited about this, as there are some major changes in image templates being proposed.

You do need to include the article where the image is being used in the rationale. If you have the article name in the purpose field as our example shows, then you are fulfilling the criteria.

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:13, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Naming conventions

Currently, we have a full page at Article names on naming conventions. In my opinion, this is too involved and needs to be tightened up. Much of what is discussed in our current guideline is duplicated from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English).

My proposal is:

Further information: Wikipedia:Naming conventions and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)

The article name should be the full name of the organization, event or award. Non-English organizations should use the most commonly used English version of the name, with the original name included in parentheses. Languages that do not use the Latin alphabet should be converted. If there is no commonly used English name, use an accepted and verifiable transliteration of the name in the original language.

The article title is subject to the same sourcing standards as the article content. Where there is a dispute over a name, editors should cite recognized authorities and organizations rather than conduct original research.

Please discuss. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Please remember that many associations do not translate their names: English translations may exist in these cases, but official documents of WOSM, WAGGGS, WFIS, UISGE, CES use the original language. For a recent example from WOSM please see [4], page 10.

I'm not really happy about raising this matter again. It was hard work to reach the consensus in Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Article names#Main points which fits far better for a multilingual movement than the "Use English - no matter if there is any translation" proposal. --jergen 09:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

After reading the main points, I attempted to summarize them as above. If I have gotten this wrong, then perhaps this is part of the problem. I do not want to change the intent of the guideline, just the wording. Our guideline is almost two pages long. It should be based on the WP guideline and work from there. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Your summary requests an English translation as title for all organizations using latin script. It does not reflect that most of these translations are not in use, have to be done by Wikipedeans (conflicts with WP:NOR) or may be ambigous.

The rules in our MoS do reflect this: They request english titles only for those associations that use an oficial translation - or for cases where usage is common. --jergen 18:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

There was a long argument about this nearly a year ago and I mediated a compromise at the beginning of this year. Some of what was done then needs to be properly integrated into the new structure. I'm in London right now and will look into this when I return to Australia on the 20th. I can not spend much time on WP right now. Please do not rush ahead with this. I might cause later problems. --Bduke 19:05, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

At this point, I am abandoning this as I don't seem to understand the implementation. I did add the WP guidelines for an number of non-English translations to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Article names. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Since this is the English wikipedia, why are we titling things in foreign scripts? I don't have the keyboard to type in those names. Sumoeagle179 21:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm putting this on hold until after the 20th, when BDuke returns (he mediated this issue). I don't want to change the intent, but it needs to be refactored for clarity. If there are specific issues, please discuss them on the Article names talk page, but please hold off on changes. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox WorldScouting

[edit] Coordinates

I added coordinates to a test version of the infobox at {{Infobox_WorldScouting/sandbox}}. See Template:Infobox_WorldScouting/testcases for samples. The updated template is in Template:Infobox_WorldScouting/sandbox. The only minor issue is the font size; at the standard 95%, the coords break across a line. The only way I see to do this without making the font smaller is to make the infobox a bit wider. Please discuss on Template talk:Infobox WorldScouting. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Done I did not increase the box width, as there is no solution that will fit all cases.

[edit] Default image

When using {{Infobox WorldScouting}}, if you don't explicitly blank the image, you get our generic Scout logo— Image:Scout logo2.svg. The generic logo is not appropriate for all articles; we should use it only for truly generic articles such as Scouting, Boy Scout, Cub Scout and the like. Suppressing the default image is not obvious, and has only been recently documented. I think we need to change the default to no image. Please discuss on Template talk:Infobox WorldScouting.

Done --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 13:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] open invitation

Several of us are working on an article at User:Phips/workshop/DP-Scouts, thanks to Phips, about Scouting in POW and refugee camps. We're trying to make this a feature quality article by the time it hits the presses. Please come visit, see if it interests you, and help if you can! Thanks, Chris 22:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Whitewash

I looked at the link Chris added to the news on Wayne Perry, [5]. Perry's taking Steve Fossett's spot. About that it says Fossett "..had asked to be be allowed to step down as a member of the Committee. Despite his departure from the World Committee, Steve Fossett remains very attached to the Movement, and we eagerly await news of new successful exploits....". As far as I know, Fossett is still missing. Face it, by now he's probably dead, which is sad. But this news bit is such a whitewash. It reads like Fossett is alive and the WSC asked him to step down and that he'll continue with his adventures. Rlevse 11:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think your link is correct. The wording in that quote is very odd. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

oops, try this: [6] Rlevse 13:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

This sounds like something that happened before he disappeared and is just now appearing on the website. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, but it's dated Sep 30, three weeks after his plane crashed. Rlevse 13:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but this has probably been in the works for a while, probably after he became NESA president. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:06, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

That text is from the minutes of a World Scout Committe meeting of 2006. Full text is www.scout.org/en/content/download/6813/63303/file/C0702WSCommittee_e.pdf here.

--Lou Crazy 01:08, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Style guide

WikiProject Scouting
Scope
Scouting-related Articles
Scouting-related articles
Processes
Article maintenance Non-English article names Using images Using references
Indexes
Categories Templates Userboxes

As many of you know, I have been taking the lead on working our style guide. My goal is to have the guide formally accepted into the WP Manual of Style. I tore our old guide apart three months ago; I have since refactored most of it. I have eliminated material that was already a WP policy or guideline and tried to include the guidelines that a peculiar only to Scouting articles. I have not tried to change the intent of any of the guidelines we have agreed on. This now encompasses one style guide page and a few pages for specific processes and indexes.

I really need folks to take a hard look at this and give feedback. I'm not going to rush this—I don't plan to try to push this until after the end of October at the earliest.

Interestingly, our fellow editors in the Military History project are also pushing their MOS: WT:MILHIST#MOS. I wasn't really aware of this until I got my MilHist newsletter this morning. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What a bunch of pussies

Bad enough you won't defend your own artilces (RELEVSE & CHRIS & GADGET), but you yourselves attack them (CAMP MINSI). Maybe if you all weren't such pussies, Camp Minsi would not have been lost. What kind of iditos vote to delete or merge their own articles. PUSSIES. All of you.

Not a set of balls to share. IDIOTS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.134.136.206 (talk) 01:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Not that a response is warranted to you, a clearly unScoutlike sockpuppet, but I'm just in the mood to take on your spurious claims.

1. We defend our own articles, those worth defending. Those that are not have already been told they're not worth fighting for. We have guidelines for what is a useful article and what is baggage.
2. That you singled out three out of several dozen members shows who you are, and we're all long tired of you. Any time you're ready to stop editing the Wikipedia, we'll help you pack.
3. I defy you to point out anywhere on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Camp Minsi that any one of our members attacked the article. It was left alone to drown under its own cruft.
4. You're obviously not a Scout in your heart, so why even bother?

Signing my own post, unlike you, Chris 04:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• I thought Camp Minsi deserved to remain an article. It was not crufty, but was in need of editing. I was going to ask that we ask that it be reinstated because I think the admin that deleted it went too far in claiming their was a consensus to have it deleted. That being said, I too think your comments were those of anilliterate anonymous coward sockpuppet cabrón. --evrik ^(talk) 04:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

This has all been a clear test of our guidelines, epecially Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/MOS#Non-national articles. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• I disagree. If three people from the wikiproject had unified behind the minsi article, their would have been a clear consensus to keep the article. The actions of Minsi Patches are clearly retaliatory.

This was more of a test of the cohesiveness of the way we work, and as a patrol, we fail to use the patrol method. --evrik ^(talk) 14:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. BUT what failed here is the users who keep making articles that don't meet wiki notability and don't follow wiki nor project standards on that issue. They are the ones not using the patrol method. This is the inevitable result. The goal of the project is to make quality articles that also meet wiki standards-including notability, not defend everyone's pet article(s) just because it's Scouting related. I agree MinsiPatches is out of line in retaliating like this and in being grossly uncivil. For incivility, I have reported him.Rlevse 15:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• As a WikiProject we are supposed to take leadership. We should defend each of these articles and fix them so they are at least palatable. Each camp article has the potential of being expanded, so we should oppose deletion. We should also stop arguing that they be merged as that just junks up other articles. Even if the camp is closed, like the Holt Scout Ranch, or Camp Circle X, they still provide some value for a historical record. So we should defend them, and if they are “crufty” strip them down to the bare essentials. --evrik ^(talk) 19:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

If they don't meet notability and won't survive an afd, there's no reason to create them. Or put them in your user sandbox or workshop until they are at the point they will meet that criteria. Creating articles in the state that most camp articles are in, even if they meet notability, just causes disruption and wastes everyone's time. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, some of the articles are weak, but being poorly written is not a crime, otherwise half of wikipedia would go up in a mass orgy of deletion. The only disruption is caused when one gets nominated for deletion, which if he hung together and put a quick end to each of the deletion debates would be no problem. This is the only wikiproject I know of that actively sits on theior hands during deletion debates. --evrik ^(talk) 20:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I actively sat on my hands on Minsi Camp, as did Chris and R, because you asked me to. As I told you, I would have moved to merge it; we took no action either way and it got deleted. I believe the three of us have been involved with most of the AfDs, so that is an unfair characterization. The point on which all of these have swung is not quality, but notability. Of all these, only Treasure Island included any material that gave it any notability. As far as "fix them so they are at least palatable", that still does not mean they will be notable. And who is going to do this fixup job? With work and real life, I have not done much real editing this week, and the next few weeks aren't going to get any better. The project has limited resources, and we need to apply them wisely. I would rather have 100 featured articles than 5000 non-notable stubs. We are not going to win every battle; we need to understand that and pick and choose the battles we can win and battles that we *need* to win. We need to operate within the broad Wikipedia guidelines, and that includes WP:ORG#Non-commercial organizations: "Individual chapters of national and international organizations are usually not notable enough to warrant a separate article unless sufficient notability is established through reliable sources." If we cannot establish notability on an article, then we need to let it go.

Let's look at another example: Camp Yawgoog. Does it establish notability? That article was created almost two years ago and there is nothing there that I don't see in almost every other camp article. There is nothing there that says this camp is notable; nothing that would make an outsider interested in reading the article. And that is the bottom line for inclusion: notability, not quality. --Gadget850 (Ed) 21:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

• I asked you to sit on your hands because I know that when it comes to camps, there is no support. One of the worst things about this project is that it is worse than some of the deletionists. In any case, at this point we're not achieving anything and really, the article debates will be decided by the admin closing the debate (and their particular whims and biases). As for winnign battles - with the time you spent typing vote to merge you could have said vote to keep. --evrik ^(talk) 22:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • We can neep and nop all we want in the AfD, but the bottom line is the content of the article. Why hasn't anyone gone back and edited the camp articles so that they show notability? Let's go back to our example of Camp Yawgoog. What can *you* do to show that his particular camp is notable? If this article went up for AfD tomorrow what could be done to the article that would make other editors think it notable enough to keep? That is where the focus should be. We simply cannot "win" in an AfD if the article does not justify it. In this last batch of AfDs, only Treasure island had the *content* to show it met the standard. --Gadget850 (Ed) 22:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
    • And I have no idea why I am quoting WP:ORG#Non-commercial organizations: to you; you helped update that guideline: Wikipedia talk:Notability (organizations and companies)/Archive2#Redux revisited. What am I missing here? --Gadget850 (Ed) 12:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I really do not know too much about US Camps and I have been out of things for a while, but here is an outside view. It is not the job of every WikiProject to defend all articles in their terms of reference. In fact it would be a bad thing to do. It is the job of a WikiProject to ensure high quality articles on subjects in their term of reference that meet all Wikipedia policies. I think we do that better than some projects. There is already a lot of criticism of WikiProjects because they just defend cruft in their areas. As for articles on camps in general, in the UK, all such articles have been merged into Scout County/Area articles except for the four national activity centers such as Gilwell Park. The same is true in Australia. One problem with such articles is that they do not demonstrate notability, but more specifically they do not do that because there are no independent sources. All sources are likely to be internal Scouting sources. That is a wider problem for us. --Bduke 23:47, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scout camp burns in SoCal fires

The California wildfires of October 2007 article mentions that Camp Helendade has burned to the ground. Some online sources are here, here, and here, the camp's home page. Thank you all. —ScouterSig 18:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

THANK YOU.I'm putting this in the council and fire articles right now. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Update: the camp did not "burn down," as first thought. I will update the pages mentioned. —ScouterSig 22:39, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New sig

ArielGold starting calling me "R" because my wiki name is unpronounceable. I also like User:Edokter's sig (I nom'd him for admin and he made it), so I've come up with this sig in Scouting colors, what do you guys think: — Rlevse • Talk • 12:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

• How about: — R.L.E vse • Talk • --evrik ^(talk) 13:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Nah. Thanks anyway. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scouting History Symposium

For those who may possibly be interested, there's going to be a two-day event at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland, next Feb. 15-16 on Scouting- A Centennial History Symposium. One of the speakers is Nelson Block — author of A Thing of the Spirit about E. Urner Goodman. More info. is here JGHowes ^talk - 21:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference management

I started using Zotero for Firefox and this thing is slick. It can import references from a web page and export them in WP citation template format. I had created a Scouting bibliography before I found Zotero and I used it to grab every reference and stored it for later use. If I need a new reference, I can go to Amazon or wherever and use Zotero to build a new reference. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. I have just installed it, but I think it might take me a while to get my head around it. --Bduke 02:29, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BSA Insignia Guide now online

Insignia Guide --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 08:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Are those images usable? Some of those I have never even seen. Chris 23:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Just as usable as the ones I've gotten from ScoutStuff.org. What have you never seen? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

"Ambassador" Chris 00:56, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

No clue on that one. Perhaps I will Ask Andy. [7] --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Veropedia

Veropedia is a spin off from wiki that uses quality articles from wiki to build a quality online encyclopedia of verified articles. You must have approval to upload them. Note, no Fair Use images are allowed (wiki is headed there, I think too). Uploaders have to be approved to upload in their field of knowledge. I was approved to upload Scouting articles. I put Scouting up first here: [8]. I'll put up B-P's article next. I will start with our FA and GA articles. Most people on Veropedia are wikipedians. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:26, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

This seems an excellent initiative. Is there a way we could indicate on the wikipedia article that a verified version has been put on Veropedia? Perhaps something in the left column like the links to other language wikipedias? We would have to pursuade the community of course. --Bduke 22:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Apparently not right now. There is some resistance to this as some view it as spam. We could make our own talk page template. I think when I'm done with the uploading, I'll note somehow on our project pages what's uploaded to vero. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Veropedia uploads

See announcements on main project page. Scouting will be on the main page of Veropedia from 4-10 Nov, 2007. The people running Vero and I agree to only upload FA/A/GA articles, unless it's important, like Scouting for Boys, which is currently B-class, but nothing lower than B-class. It this vein, if you could help improve Scouting for Boys, Boy Scout, Cub Scout, Brownies, or Woodcraft Indians, that'd be great. Of the two running vero, one was a Cubbie and the others is an Eagle Scout.

I will soon add section to "Article Showcase" to show which ones are on Veropedia. I have currently uploaded Scouting_for_Boys, [[Wood Badge], Frederick Russell Burnham, Baden-Powell House, Brownsea Island Scout camp, Girl_Scouts of the USA, Gilwell Park, List of Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America), Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell, Scouting.

Currently on vero (it's in beta) you have to type in the full article name to find it, It's easiest to call it up on wiki then paste the name into your vero URL or search box. They're working on this being better. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:20, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Good work.Sumoeagle179 10:23, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Userboxes

After some examination and consultation, I have to report that several of our userboxes are using non-free images in violation of the non-free content criteria policy. Specifically, point 9: "non-free content is only allowed in articles." I have asked User:Kaboom88 to help update images on these to comply with policy.

The first case is {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Queen's Scout}}. Here is a comparison of the images used in the userbox, the article and Kaboom88's proposed update: User:Gadget850/Sandbox6.

Others are:

• {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Queen's Scout}}
• {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Queen's Scout (UK)}}
• {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Order of the Arrow}}
• {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Arrowman}}
• {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/BSA Religious Award}}
• {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/vigil}}
• {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Philmont}}
• {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Roving Outdoor Conservation School}}
• {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/PTCalumni}}
• {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/GSGold}}
• {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/GSSilver}}
• {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/GSBronze}}

--— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. Hope Kaboom can help because I'm not a graphics person. — Rlevse • Talk • 16:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The "Arrowman" box should be free; the picture is tagged as such. —ScouterSig 16:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Wait... they are all tagged as free. What makes them not free? —ScouterSig 16:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

To clarify: the graphics for all of these are tagged as free, but they are a direct derivative of a non-free image, essentially a clone, thus are not really free. This is an issue I will take care of later. Again, look at the first two images at User:Gadget850/Sandbox6 one is tagged as non-free and on is tagged as free. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but the non-free one is the UK badge and the free one is the Australian badge. I am not sure the badges are really identical although they are clearly close. --Bduke 23:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not the expert on that one. Unfortunately the one marked free was done by NThurston and he has not been active for some months. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 01:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

So I assume that the picture in Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Eagle Scout is "different enough." But what makes it different enough? (And I appoligize for not knowing what the rules are.) —ScouterSig 16:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The Eagle Scout is different enough to be non-free; it is just a colored square knot with no background. I'm afraid the OA device is pretty much a clone. We could use an arrow or something similar to convey the idea of the OA. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Here are the easy ones:


I will however also need some clarification on the knots. Would it be ok to create an svg file out of the Eagle Scout knot then color it with the religious knot colors to make a legal religious knot emblem??
Could the Australian Queen Scout and UK Queen Scout use the same image? (Since they have the same queen and all)
I'm also curious to see if anyone has some ideas for the Girl Scout awards and Philmont userboxes. -- Kaboom88 23:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Those look good. I think the knot idea will work. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 03:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a generic arrowhead for Philmont? Or a picture of the actual Philmont arrowhead. —ScouterSig 03:19, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

A generic brown arrowhead pointing up would work. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 10:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Where's the Brotherhood version?Sumoeagle179 10:23, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

No one ever made Brotherhood userbox. Do we really need separate boxes? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 10:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Either one or all three. I have to agree with sumo here. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, we either need just the generic OA box and leave Brotherhood and Vigil out or have all three.-MBK004 22:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that the Vigil user category may be upmerged, (see here). If it is, then a single userbox may be best. Three boxes I think is excessive. As is multiple Philmont boxes; a single one would do. —ScouterSig 22:47, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with both. All Arrowmen are equal.
  • PTCalumni is used by three editors and ROCS is used by one. I will put these up for merge and announce them. If someone is really stuck on one, they can copy them to their userspace, but the logo does need to change.
  • I'm going to look at merging {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/GS}} and {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Girl Guide}} and use a parameter to switch.
  • Any other userboxes we should clean up?

--— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC) Here are the Eagle knots:


And the Religious knots:



-- Kaboom88 23:13, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the two OA member userboxes should be merged. I also prefer the look of {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Order of the Arrow}} (plain white background for entire userbox, instead of red border around picture), perhaps the OA userbox and Vigil OA userbox could be made in the same style. -- Kaboom88 23:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

That was fast! I just left you a note like 60 seconds ago. The Eagle knots look great, but we can't use the background on the religious knots, else they become a copy of the logo. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:17, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Religious knots fixed. -- Kaboom88 23:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Here are the Girl Scout Awards:

-- Kaboom88 00:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Most excellent! --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 02:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's the one for Philmont:

What should be (if anything) added to it for the Roving Outdoor Conservation School and PTCalumni userboxes? -- Kaboom88 03:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I recommend the ROCS and PTC boxes be changed in the same manner. For the UK Queen Scout, use the Australia image with the purple background. If you want to do something different for Eagle Scout go ahead, I've never been enamored of the color scheme.

All done now, how come the userboxes with the BSA emblem aren't a problem? -- Kaboom88 21:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

They are. I missed those. Any ideas? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Do these look alright?

I wasn't too sure about the colors, so I'd thought I'd ask. Also, will the 3 userboxes featuring the WAGGGS logo need new images too? -- Kaboom88 04:29, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I like them. The WAAGGS logo is a generic; I converted it from PNG to SVG, so it could probably use a good cleanup. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I just added the silver palm option to my userpage. Nice work Kaboom! Actually, I have 5 palms, but no big deal. I still think we should have all three OA levels or just one. Sumoeagle179 13:38, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

As well as having an Arrowman and an Order of the Arrow box. If there were no objection to using the same logo, I could add a switch so we could use one box for all.

I did a bit of cleanup across the userboxes. Any box that adds a category can now turn off the category by adding categories=no. That way talk pages and the like won't show up in categories. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

-- Kaboom88 02:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the X over the logo in the box for alumni, that implies negative on a box not meant to be negative. Could we instead turn the badge from gold to silver, or put spider webs or a rocking chair around it? Anything but that X. We already have one that has the "no" symbol, which I already find to be pejorative. Chris 06:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

How about a grayscale version for the Was BSA userbox?

That is significantly more bueno, thanks. Chris 03:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I also changed the colors of Image:WAGGGS.svg and uploaded it as Image:GGGSgreengold.svg to the Commons for the Girl Guides userboxes. -- Kaboom88 10:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I added a BSA template for

.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 18:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Totor

Totor, Patrol Leader of the Cockchafers seems less than dubious to me. "Cock"+"Chafers"?? There are no external links on the page. I typed in the page title to Google and didn't seem to get anything nonwiki or wiki-mirrored. Only by typing in "Totor" and "Herge" could I find pages [9], [10], and [11]]; none of these have "Cockchafers" in them. Even the French title seems like it would be translated "Extraordinary adventures of Totor" if anything. What say you? —ScouterSig 04:13, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I say we move it. Or get a really strong cream, I knew a guy at camp once... :) Chris 04:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Cockchafer is legit. I did find this-http://www.kendall-bioresearch.co.uk/chafer.htm, and in Nebraska we called them junebugs, but apparently May is preferred. Chris 04:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

We should take this discussion to Talk:Totor, Patrol Leader of the Cockchafers --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

So moved, literally. Chris 02:40, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox WorldScouting

I would like to make a few changes to the infobox

• Add coordinates
• Increase the box width from 18em to 20em so that the coordinates don't break across the line
• Remove the default image

Please discuss at Template talk:Infobox WorldScouting#Updates --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What thinkest thou?

Should Scouting supporters get the project tag? An example would be Norodom Monineath Sihanouk

“

The Girl Guides Association of Cambodia has a high profile in society and is well regarded, mainly due to the support of Queen mother Monineath.

”

Chris 06:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Only people who join should get the project tag. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• If Queen Monineath did/does enough for scouting, she may even be awarded 'importance=high' in the wikiproject tag on her article's talk page. But as I read it, I would now rate the article class=stub|importance=low for a Scouting tag. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC).

[edit] BSA et al end support for WOSM‏

Brother Jergen posted on the main page the crisis going on with WOSM right now (and welcome back, brother, you have been missed). While we don't yet know the reasons, they will likely come to light in the next few days and weeks.

Since this is our Project talkpage and not for an article, we may broaden what we can discuss, and this one tweaks my interest. I can't say I'm surprised or upset. I'm not married to the idea that BSA needs to be a part of WOSM, or that that WOSM in its present form since at least 1988 is valuable. Those trad Scouts have a lot of points-WOSM has severely gotten away from the For Boys-By Boys-About Boys vision B-P had in mind, and become a highly politicized self-perpetuating behemoth. The Chief Scout of the World had to fight and petition WOSM several times himself, and if the Old Man had issues, it's a movement he created and his vision should have been paramount. Even then WOSM was its own worst enemy.

My own examples and personal experience with WOSM turned me from being a "company man" over 15 years ago, and I have been criticized for not sticking with the team, but this is also why I am into non-aligned and not-yet-accepted movements. As each country fell to communism, fascism, nationalism, militant Islamicism, pick-your-own-ism, the first thing WOSM has done is to cancel membership in the world brotherhood for those Scouts, never mind you leave them feeling abandoned and tossed away, and never mind that those Scouts are not the ones who created the -ism in the first place, by God we have rules and those rules are not to be bent for an instant. That inflexibility is damaging and detrimental.

Once the Soviet Union broke up, the first thing WOSM did was to contract with the leadership of the Young Pioneers, of which all of the leadership of the new Eurasia region are veteran high staff. Scouting was not allowed to blossom naturally in those countries, and there are maybe one or two of those WOSM members that can rightly be called Scouts (Russia and Tajikistan cannot), while other nations have actual Scouts but WOSM won't play ball with them (Belarus, Ukraine...) as the ex-Pioneer cronies don't have their hooks in the orgs. I lived in Kyrgyzstan and was told to desist my helping their Scouts else it would delay their WOSM membership. I was there 12 years ago, they're still not members...

Don't get me wrong, BSA is no better in many respects, (and probably has caused much of the politics at WOSM) but at least they deal with immediate problems with some forward thinking, as they come up. That's why I struggle to keep this Project from being too BSA-centric, but that's another story.

I'm not shedding tears or losing sleep for WOSM, but I am getting off my soapbox. As a brother Scout to all of you brothers and sisters, be you present or former or quit for matters of conscience, no matter your organization, I thank each of you and I wish you the very best, and good night. Chris 05:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I started a subpage in my namespace for collecting the different statements: User:Jergen/WOSM crisis. --jergen 07:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Chris... maybe WOSM's problem is that BSA had too much influence on it until recently ;-)

--Lou Crazy 02:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Very possibly, you'll notice I mentioned that in my rant. :) Chris 04:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

• This is all very interesting, but has anything been reported in the mainstream media that we could use as a reliable source, to integrate this development into the BSA and WOSM articles? JGHowes ^talk - 09:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

• No, I think this is (at least at the moment) more of "general interest" for the project members. Including it in the respective articles at this state would be Recentism, specially as the developments are very unclear. --jergen 11:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Jergen here— we need to wait and see how this plays out. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:52, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

You're right. The BSA article doesn't specifically state that it's a member of WOSM, unless I'm overlooking something there (templates and infoboxes don't show on Blackberries, which is what I'm using here in a remote part of Argentina). "Other divisions" mentions World Jambo and so forth, but again no specific reference there to BSA's relationship with WOSM. Shouldn't this be mentioned? Of course, depending on how these latest events unfold, maybe that will soon be moot (not in the Rover sense). :o) JGHowes ^talk - 12:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm planning to include this in Scouting controversy and conflict, but I think we should wait for at least one month to get a clearer picture of the situation (and I need some distance from it). Coming weekend I'll attend a scientific conference of my association; I should meet our ICs and our Chairman there. Perhaps I get some answers on my questions. --jergen 07:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we need secondary or tertiary sources, right now all sources are primary. I have not seen any news source picking this up, and neither the WOSM or BSA sites are mentioning it. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 10:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

There already was something on the WOSM site... this and this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lou Crazy (talk • contribs) 17:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Does this mean I have to remove the purple emblem from my shirt?--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 18:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

No— since the SG has been removed it would appear that the crisis have been averted for at least the short term. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference desk Humanities

Someone has asked here why the Scout handshake was changed in 1972 to omit the little finger. If anyone in the project knows, please answer on the desk or on my talk page. --Milkbreath 11:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it was to make it the same as the Scout handshakes in the rest of the world. As I recall, only the BSA did the handshake with a spread little finger at the time, the rest of the world didn't. (responded at help desk too). — Rlevse • Talk • 11:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Italy has a handshake with little finger, too, and still uses it. Supposedly it dates from the time when fascism disbanded scouting in Italy, and those scouts who kept operating in clandestinity wanted a secret handshake. So they did it with the right hand and with the little finger. That way no one else would notice. Even when scouting restarted officially after Italy was liberated the handshake remained the same, and we keep doing it with the right hand, except during the promise ceremony, when you shake the left hand and do the scout sign with the right.

--Lou Crazy 02:30, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

In Austria we also use the left hand with the little finger, Old Scouts told us that the little finger was a secret sign in "Underground Scouting" during Nationalsocialsm. -Phips 15:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Didn't people notice something was strange if you used the left hand?

--Lou Crazy 16:57, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

It was only among Scouts and former Scouts. Another point is that some say there is more conected if you do it with the little finger. See also the German article:de:Pfadfindergruß. Nobody knows were it exactly came from.-Phips 17:07, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but if non-scouts were watching they would notice something strange. And if they weren't watching, what would have been the point of a secret handshake? ;-)

I think that it's more likely that underground scouting in Austria used the finger with right hand, then switched back to left after WWII.

BTW, if you use the little finger you're not only more "connected", but you're actually doing something similar to the scout sign with its three fingers.

--Lou Crazy (talk) 17:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, it is also possible that they introduced it because they saw it at Jamborees and International camps from the BSA. In the 1946 edition of the Boy Scout Handbook of the BSA, we have in our Scout Archive it is included, in "Wie man Jungpfadfinder wird" (6th edition,1970, Boy Scouts of Austria), also in "Unterwegs" (Boy Scouts and Girl Guides of Austria,2nd edition 1979) it is included,it is not included in THILO (Swiss Boy Scouts,19th edition 1980), Baden-Powell "Scouting for Boys"(18th edition), "Wie man Pfadfinder wird"(Scouting for Boys) (World Brotherhood edition (Weltbruderschaftsausgabe)1955, German edition by the Boy Scouts of Austria)-Phips (talk) 17:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Songs

Do we want to try to track Scouting related songs? I was flipping through my mother's Cub Scout Songbook (1955) and noticed The Grand Old Duke of York. Curious, I checked, and there is an article on it as a nursery rhyme. Per the talk page, material on the song version had been removed, so I added it back with a reference. An article on Songs used in Scouting might be interesting. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:06, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

We've had Scouting songs since Dec 2006. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:15, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but it's not linked to any Scouting articles and very USA-centric IMHO, even referring to "the country" (!). I'd tag it {{global}}, except that yesterday a {{cn}} tag on another Scout article provoked a rather mastodon-like reaction from a Project member. So rather than a tag, may I suggest that Scouting songs either be renamed "Scouting songs of the BSA" or, alternatively, expanded in scope to include Scouting songs from Europe, Australia, etc. JGHowes ^talk - 16:27, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

response from the mastodon-it wasn't the tag that provoked the response, it was the attitude and the tone in your edit summary. Politeness begets politeness, rudeness begets rudeness. My first revert was done with a polite explanation in the summary, your own revert summary was heavyhanded and smug. Physician heal thyself. Chris 20:08, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Either or is fine with me. I find it interesting that this article is BSA centric but has German Girl Scouts in the photo. FYI, it's linked to at least other Scouting articles. — Rlevse • Talk • 19:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, the girls are German, so it should read "Girl Guides". BTW, the girls are members of the non-aligned Christliche Pfadfinderschaft Deutschlands. --jergen 08:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

That, and it is not much of an article; it is mostly lyrics. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 22:02, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Global-tagged it; the new guy's right on that. I like that tag, we have several articles that could use it. Chris 22:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] International organization leaders by year

I found this article/category, and would like to start filling in for WOSM and WAGGGS. Do you guys know where I can get a list of past Secretaries General of the World Organization of the Scout Movement? (as well as a more complete list for Director/Chief Executive of WAGGGS) We need to start filling in some of those missing teeth. Also, for bios like Missoni, we need a {{succession box}}, especially as we may soon have a new Secretary General because of the BSA letter. Chris 22:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] B-P statue

While visiting here in Rio de Janeiro this week, I was surprised to discover a statue of B-P in a downtown park. Who knew?

I took a pix, so maybe a place can be found for this image in some Scout-related article JGHowes ^talk - 00:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe an article on tributes to B-P or one in the Brazil Scouting section.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 01:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

If you make it PD, GFDL, or CC you can store it on wikicommons. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Huh?--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 13:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Scouting memorials or Scouting in Brazil --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 10:36, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Making it a free license will enable you to keep it on wikicommons and you won't have to find an article for it, it also enables other wikiprojects to use it. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It would be a fine information and fine illustration in Scouting memorials-Phips 18:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• Yep, especially since Scouting memorials says "none reported" for S. America right now. I'll attend to that as soon as I can JGHowes ^talk - 00:05, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks--- Phips (talk) 18:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Y Done JGHowes ^talk - 07:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is a notable local unit?

What qualifies as a notable local unit?--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 20:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Very very few, like if it were true, the first troop to walk on the moon. When they get started, they usually get merged into a council article. Only a very small number warrant their own article. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Even the first troops in a country, for instance India and Finland, are not substantial enough to warrant their own articles, and have been merged back into a parent article. If the Scouting Wikiproject guidelines were followed by all members (they are not), there should ideally be no article below council level. -- Chris (talk) 22:34, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Then why not dump the category?--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 01:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Am I missing something here? What category? Just to generalize what is said above. In the UK material on local groups and districts has been generally merged into County (England) or Area (Scotland and Wales) articles (in checking just now I have just found one that needs to be merged). Similarly in Australia they have been merged into State articles. One problem is that many such articles are not put into any category, so are difficult to find. --Bduke (talk) 02:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Local units of the Boy Scouts of America is the cat he's talking about. And dumping the cat is probably a good idea. The reason we have it is that the BSA part of the Scouting Project has had more problems in the area of sub-council articles than the rest of the project. — Rlevse • Talk • 04:09, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, we should merge to Category:Local councils of the Boy Scouts of America. Having it tacitly approves the creation of these types of articles. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 13:23, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

• I think we should leave the category. But I'm ambivalent. --evrik ^(talk) 20:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] fleur-de-lis versus "Scout lily"

evrik is now insisting on "Scout lily" as an alternate name for an article for the emblem used by 90+% of the world's Scout organizations in some fashion. In 28 years and dealing with some 30 odd organizations, nobody calls it that. It is fleur-de-lis in English and French and transliterated from other organizations into English, they call it a fleur-de-lis, just like the article on the Wikipedia. Scout archivists and historians and patch embroiderers call it a fleur-de-lis, or FdL for short. There is no common widespread usage of "Scout lily", it is wishful thinking. The term evrik suggests is much less common and needs to be notated that it is not widely called such. Chris (talk) 22:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The article should be fleur-de-lis but Scout lily can be a redirect. --Bduke (talk) 23:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I have never heard "Scout lily", how many have? It should be a redir, not the main link. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:01, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, in German it is Pfadfinderlilie - which tranlates literally to Scout lily; but nobody with any knowledge of English would use this. --jergen (talk) 11:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It is Pfadfinderlilie in Austria and Switzerland, too. I agree with jergen in the translation topic.-Phips (talk) 00:10, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Once again, Kintetsubuffalo has to make things personal by leaving nasty little jibes in the edit comments. Scout lily is not a common term, and I'm okay with it being a redirect to Fleur-de-lis in Scouting. FWIW it does show up in a google search.--evrik ^(talk) 15:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Not being nasty at all. You are misleading to use aka, since that stands for "also known as", when in fact it is not also known as that, except perhaps by you and some literal translations from other languages when Googled. All I was pointing out was that it was your proposal and not a broader one. The point has now been abundantly illustrated. Chris (talk) 21:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

• User:Kintetsubuffalo is putting words in my mouth. I'm going to walk away from this because this is ridiculous. --evrik ^(talk) 21:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletions

For those participating in deletion discussions, I really recommend reading Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. This is a very good essay on how to keep the discussion focused and relevant. All too often, I see discussion that wander into unrelated areas and then start to become acrimonious.

My personal preference is to allow a deletion discussion to develop for about two days, then respond to specific points. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sea Scouts New Zealand

Greetings! May I bring this new article Sea Scouts New Zealand, spotted while patrolling new pages, to your attention please? Thanks. --Malcolmxl5 22:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. This is a list of local units. And the same editor created Hawke Sea Scouts, a local unit. These are going to fail on notability issues. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I have added a bit to the articles and notified the author. The general one could be improved to be OK, but the individual Group is not notable. Unfortunately, we do not have articles on Scouting in New Zealand at the level just below national. That would be the place to merge this article. --Bduke 00:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I may not be writing this in the correct place or appropriate forum - so please forgive my errors. If you wish the scouting portal to grow you need to encourage development which may be slow. Within New Zealand there is a great chance to have a really good article about sea scouting and many good (not sure what notable means in an international context) articles about individual groups. This reflects the de facto structure of sea scouting in NZ, the area/district/regional/zone distinctions do not have any real context and it is unlikely that anyone would write an article. If you want contributions to grow I suggest that you allow the individual group articles to evolved linked to a national sea scouting article. It is for this reason that I set up the structure in this way - competition will encourage other group leaders to contribute both to their own articles and to the national article. HawkeSeaScouts (talk) 05:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 5 old Boy Scout cards

I've uploaded 5 old British Boy Scout images to WikiCommons that were published before 1923, so PD (several were after 1923, so I didn't upload), from the New York Digital Image Gallery. These are old cigarette ad cards, which probably wouldn't get made today, but are very interesting historically, see [12]. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Images to improve#World Organization of the Scout Movement

I have placed a request to get the WOSM map cleaned up. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions? Chris 18:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Done, I think the colors go better together and show up on more monitors cleanly. Chris (talk) 18:47, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Former names and redirects

I had recommended using {{R from historic name}} on redirect pages where the association name had changed. This is incorrect— {{R from historic name}} is only for place names. Please use {{R from former name}} instead. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Founder infoboxes

I think that using {{Infobox Person}} is more appropriate than {{BSAseries}} for founder articles. {{Scouting|hide|hide|hide|show|hide|hide}} works nicely as a navigation element. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:54, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree.Sumoeagle179 (talk) 02:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree-Phips (talk) 14:18, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boy Scouts of America's predominance

I think we need to do something with this, merge, delete or something else. I'm just not comfortable with it. It appears to have been split off from another article--does anyone know why? Note that in our new article section, someone noted it's an attack or OR piece. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• (I was the guy who made the comments-I went to LA for five days, (no Wikipedia) :( came back and found this questionable essay.) Chris (talk) 19:15, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

It was forked from Scouting in the United States after you and I made comments—see the talk and history pages. The article is dancing around without explicitly stating that the BSA is out to squash the "competition." --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. It does seem to be pushing a WP:POINT a bit too much. I think it could be toned downed some. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• I left my comments here: Talk:Boy Scouts of America's predominance. --evrik ^(talk) 14:59, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional Eagles

I really think that Category:Fictional Eagle Scouts should be done away with. The information could be moved to List of Scouts, or more likely to List of Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America). Despite the fact that its deletion was overturned, I think that it was more... riding on the coattails of Category:Eagle Scouts. Does anyone else feel this way? —ScouterSig 15:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I can support that. I was surprised it was kept too. I even said in DRV I'd support removing it and merging the fictional Eagles, even though I supported keeping the other two cats. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. We had such a list in List of Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America) at one point. When we put the article up for FL, it was felt that the fictional list was out of scope and it was moved to Scouting in popular culture#Fictional Eagle Scouts. I made this quite clear in the CfD when I discussed keeping the other two categories and deleting this one, but the category was "kept until listified."

The guidelines on the talk pages for List of Scouts and List of Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America) both state that fictional Scouts should be added to Scouting in popular culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gadget850 (talk • contribs) 15:59, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

If we, the ScoutingWikiProject, agree to put it in Scouting in popular culture, no one else is going to object to it. — Rlevse • Talk • 16:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

If you mean delete the cat and list it in the article, then it is already done. There are five characters in the cat and 15 in the list. Snoopy is not in the Eagle Scout list per se, as he is a Beagle Scout and listed as such Comics section. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:40, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The cat never had all the fictional Eagles that were in the pop culture article. I think Snoopy should be there too. The cat still exists (again now). I'm willing to delete it if that's our consensus. — Rlevse • Talk • 16:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

So far it's just us three (R, Gadget, and myself), but I don't know what truly convincing thing could be said to counter the above. —ScouterSig 16:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Do we want to do an official CfD or just kill it and get it over with? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Whenever possible, it's always better to leave such decisions to those of us familiar with the topic, rather than those who merely surf deletion lists to get in on a cause not their own. I always recommend keeping it in-house. Chris (talk) 18:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Chris is right. I'll just whack it. — Rlevse • Talk • 19:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Bye! --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eagle Scout son of Mike Huckabee

fyi, Newsweek reports today here that Huckabee's son was allegedly involved in an incident of animal cruelty while on BSA camp staff 10 years ago as a 17-year old. For the moment, there's no mention of it in the Mick Huckabee article, altho it was discussed at Talk:Mike Huckabee#Coverup of son's dog torture. Tonight on Larry King Live, Mike Huckabee defended his son, stressing that he achieved Eagle rank shortly after this incident and added, his son is "also Vigil, the highest honor in Scouting". JGHowes ^talk - 05:02, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Frankly I wouldn't put much creedence on this latest news flash. It's a presidential election and people are digging for dirt anywhere they can find it. From what I've read about the dog, no one seems to even have the details the same.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 00:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New article

Scouting project members may be interested in an article I created yesterday about the early 20th century clergyman S. Parkes Cadman, because of what he had to say about Scouting, as quoted there. JGHowes ^talk - 15:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Very nice, put it in for DYK at Template_talk:Did_you_know. The Scouting section needs a ref as it's a quote. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. You really should use {{quote}} with a source parameter; see the documentation for {{cquote}} to see how pull quotes should be used. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for the suggestions. I'll get to that after the holiday. Merry Christmas everyone! JGHowes ^talk - 04:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New information on Imam al-Mahdi Scouts

Al Jazeera has recently published an article on the Imam al-Mahdi Scouts. I've tried to synthesize this information into the existing wikipedia article, but I'd be grateful if some other folks could run their eyes over what is a tricky topic. Kingbird (talk) 03:51, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I love what you've done as it adds balance to the biased sources I found and had to crop down when I wrote the thing. Chris (talk) 07:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Yep, nice work.Sumoeagle179 (talk) 01:43, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Good job, thanks. Merry Christmas to you all. Yours in Scouting-Phips (talk) 06:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Would you all chime in at the talkpage? A user is accusing us of not enough POV, we've worked very hard to keep it neutral. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 20:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scout Park images

I came across something interesting this week, a park dedicated to Scouts (BSA). It was just established this year and is in Snow Hill, NC. Sorry they're not too clear, but I only had my cell camera phone with me, not my digital camera. The three images are on commons at , , . — Rlevse • Talk • 02:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)