Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Scouting Wiki Project Wikipedia WikiProject Scouting/Archive 1 is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Archive
Archives
1. 21 Jan 2006 – 03 Jul 2006
2. 6 July 2006 – November 2006
3. December 2006 – March 2007
4. April 2007 – ...

Contents

How do I join?

Is it enough to add my name/interests? --Lou Crazy 00:41, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

yes! Welcome aboard! :) --Naha|(talk) 15:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Additions

Thanks for helping, but you don't need to list every page you add the project tag too. There'd be hundreds of articles here. Please do list new articles on the Scouting project page. Rlevse 22:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Distinction between Scouting and the BSA

I think we have a systemic problem of conflating Scouting with the BSA. For example, the first half of the scoutmaster article is clearly referring to the BSA, though this isn't stated. Only in the middle of the article is the disclaimer "Some Scout Associations use different terms for these positions." The article then has a section about South Africa and a link to Poland, implying that the information above is generic to all forms of Scouting. I think one of the goals of this project should be making sure articles are clear about whether they are referring to the BSA or other Scouting organizations, or about Scouting in general. -- Scott eiπ 21:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I've had a go at the Scoutmaster page, making a general section and a BSA section and that added a UK section and an Australia section. What do you think? Maybe this page should be retitled ('moved') to Leaders in Scouting and altered to deal with all sections on an equal basis and add something about leaders above the Troop or Group - in UK, District Scout Leaders, etc and District Commissioner, County Commissioner, Field Commissioner etc. Lots of other pages have the same problem. For example, the Rover Scouts page has far too much on BSA Rovers compared with other countries where Rovering has been much more important than in the USA. --Bduke 22:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
That's a great idea, and I support it. Do bear in mind, as the largest English-speaking Scout association, on the English-language 'pedia, you're going to find a _lot_ like that. Chris 23:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I'll second that idea, though it should be Adult leaders in Scouting, since there are youth leaders too. -- Scott eiπ 01:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
There are, I feel, TOO MANY adult jobs to include in one page, UNLESS, you have subarticles. Yes, we want to include ALL Scouting, not just BSA. Rlevse 19:57, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but how many of those jobs are notable? How many can we treat with just a quick blurb? -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 20:46, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
If you limit yourself to the BSA, not that many, but if you encompass the worldwide movement, LOTS. How this is handled should be settled before going much further. You may want to add this to the "decisions to be made" section of the TODO page. Rlevse 22:28, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

We also need a distinction between Boy Scouts as the organization and Boy Scouts as a division. I recommend that when referring to the organization, we use Boy Scouts of America or BSA. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I do not think it is the job of wikipedia to give information about every adult position in Scouting. At some point the reader has to go to the appropriate manuals of the appropriate Association in the country concerned. However, I do think that people want to see a comparision of the way adult leadership is handled in different countries and an explanation of the terms used. I think we should go ahead and rename the page Adult leaders in Scouting. There should be a general introduction and then articles on different Associations or countries. If it all gets too large we can hive off new articles such as Adult leaders in Scouting (Europe), Adult leaders in Scouting (Americas), Adult leaders in Scouting (Asia), etc., or even go down to country articles. The problem of size can be handled when we meet it. --Bduke 22:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

GSUSA

I did some editing on the Girl Scouts of America artical, I am a senior Girl Scout and think that I can make some valuable contributions to that and other pages concerning girl scouting. I also would like to make a Girl Scouting userbox and a wikiproject scouting userbox, but I'm not very good at that and not really sure how. Griz 02:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I created one at User:Kintetsubuffalo/workshop/Template:User Wikiproject Scout, it is actually borrowed from one of our other members, but I sheepishly forget whom at the moment

Good, we need more people helping on the girl side of the program. We'll move the project box to main Wiki soon, remind me. Rlevse 03:21, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

GSA is the General Services Administration; the correct abbreviation is GSUSA, so I changed the title line - GCW

Userbox

We need a userbox saying we are in WikiProject Scouting. I looove userboxes. Right now I have 63. I didn't just join for the userbox though. I like Scouts. We still need a userbox though. schyler 03:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

This is what I use:-

<div style="float: left; border:solid lime 1px; margin: 1px;"> {| cellspacing="0" style="width: 238px; background: {{{2|{{{info-c|#99ff99}}}}}};" | style="width: 45px; height: 45px; background: green; text-align: center; font-size: {{{5|{{{id-s|14}}}}}}pt; color: {{{id-fc|lime}}};" | '''{{{3|{{{id|[[Image:Hatcombine.jpg|45px]]}}}}}}''' | style="font-size: {{{info-s|8}}}pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em; color: {{{info-fc|black}}};" | {{{4|This user is a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting#Participants|participant]] in '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting|WikiProject Scouting]]'''.}}} |}</div>

Copy it direct and it gives:-

This user is a participant in WikiProject Scouting.

Most of it taken from the work of others and combined together. I prefer to not use usebox templates and if I want to have them I use {{subst:user ...}} to put then direct into my page, so I am not interested in making this an official userbox, but feel free to do do yourself modified in what ever way you like. --Bduke 04:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Sweeeeet. schyler 04:23, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see the interest in the userbox! I know where the source is and will move it to the main userbox area later today. Rlevse 11:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I tried to get the hat a bit bigger in the left box, but it is only slightly larger than where I got it from. If you can fix this before putting it in the userbox area, I think that would be good. --Bduke 12:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

THIS IS MADE. Only, I used our standard project image instead of the hat as that only seemed appropriate to me. Add the userbox {{User Scouting WikiProject}} to your page; it automatically adds you to the Category:WikiProject Scouting members Rlevse 13:46, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

This user is a member of the Scouting WikiProject. 
This user box is slightly higher than the one I added above, at least on my browser, so it puts rows of boxes in a table out of line. I put it here so they can be directly compared. Can the height be reduced to the standard height of other userboxes? --Bduke 22:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Try it now. Rlevse 22:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. It is still a little bit higher than the Wood Badge userbox, but I can live with it. See the two together on my user page. --Bduke 22:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


Members of the Asia-Pacific Scout Region

I have added articles for Scouting in Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands and Vanuata which means that the template for Members of the Asia-Pacific Scout Region now shows no 'red' links. The links from the template and from Gallery of Scout and Guide national emblems are differently worded so I have done redirect pages. For example Solomon Islands branch of The Scout Association and Scouting on the Solomon Islands both work.

However, I want to raise a point. Many of the small Pacific states do not have their own Scout Association. They are looked after by a larger Association. For example the Solomon Islands is looked after by the UK Scout Association. Others are looked after by the USA and New Zealand. This must be a sensitive issue for some in an independant state. We need to be sensitive about how the article describes this link and of course make sure our facts are always correct. --Bduke 23:23, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Excellent points. I'm glad you are knowledgeable in this area. I also moved the Gallery's category to "Scout logos" so these images are all under one parent cat. There are hundreds of images directly under "Scout logos", but only the Galley is an article. Cleaning this up (much of it is duplicated and the independent images could be better organized) is on the TODO page.Rlevse 23:53, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I have made a new category for such Scouting organizations and added the Solomons one to it. Please see the RulesStandards page or the category itself. Rlevse 00:12, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Studio 2B

Studio 2B is no longer an artical stub and no longer needs cleaned, I edited it to include more on the program, the benefits for girls in the program, and added the reasons for the contraversy and why it is so greatly disliked by many girl scouts in our nation as it was seen at the national conference. Griz 20:51, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, also, how do you put up images on a page, I have one for studio 2B but don't know how to put it on there. Griz 21:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Use something like [[Image:Studio 2B.jpg|thumb|Logo or photograph of badge of Studio 2B]] Chris 21:11, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

But I still don't know how to get the image on there, I tried it and a link just comes up. Griz 21:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I'm smellin' what you're cookin' now. You must first upload file to the Wikipedia commons, using the toolbox link at the left side of this and most pages. Chris 21:28, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah, thank you very much. Griz 21:31, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Instant Messenger Communication

Name it: AIM, Yahoo, ICQ, MSN - I use them all, even IRC. I've noticed that a lot of us in the Scouting Project seem to be online at the same times and often editing the same articles etc, and (at least I find) its annoying to try to have a conversation with someone regarding what should be done about x or y by posting back and forth and back and forth. While this message-board/forum style system does have its advantages (gives you more time to think about your answers/comments before you reply or comment), sometimes I just wish I could talk to you guys about something more quickly.

So, I was wondering if it would be appropriate to either (a) share Instant Messenger information so we could talk to each other one-on-one and/or (2) set up an IRC channel/chatroom (something like #Wiki-Scouting on one of the various IRC networks, undernet, dalnet, webnet whatever) where we can ALL talk together about the Project. If important decisions were made in this manner (off of Wikipedia), we could log the conversations and post the "minutes" on a subpage of the Scouting project for permanent reference/citing/etc. I'm more than willing to try to cooridainte something like this and set up/register a channel if we went that route. Basically, I have cable-Internet, my IMs are always connected and I can always be contacts through them if I'm at home (heh or even if I'm not in some cases - so its a convenience thing) Thoughts? --Naha|(talk) 19:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a good idea. I've thought of sharing email addresses too. However, I have never used IM, so I'd have to be educated. Plus, I REFUSE to use anything that has ANYTHING to do with AOL (includig AIM). email me anytime (I've turned it on for you guys; I usually have it off). Rlevse 00:33, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Hehe, I hear ya about AIM. I just have an account because its the easiest way to contact several of my friends online. For instant messengers, I prefer ICQ. But the more I think about it, I think an IRC channel might be the way to go, because everyone can be in the channel and talk together at the same time. Anyone else have input on this idea? --Naha|(talk) 04:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Still wondering if anyone else wants me to set this up and might find it helpful? --Naha|(talk) 01:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Chief Scout (United Kingdom)

I have just added this page, which lists all UK Chief Scouts including B-P who was Chief Scout of the World, and later Chiefs who were Chief Scout of the Empire, Commonwealth, etc (various titles were used). I draw this to everyone's attention so "Chief Scout" on many pages can now be made into a link, and also so maybe the three Chiefs without their own page can have those written. I note in passing that the 2nd Chief Scout, Lord Somers, does have a page, but until today it did not mention he was Chief Scout! --Bduke 02:02, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Why not just make it just Chief Scout and we can update the page with different counties Chiefs instead of Chief Scout (United Kingdom), Chief Scout (Ireland) etc etc... Ablaze 11:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I think, this would be quite a mess; I prefer country-oriented pages, since they fit better to categories. --jergen 11:28, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
agree with Jergen-country articles (especially outside of the dozen or so big ones) are the best place to look up specific information on one's own national Scouting.Chris 18:20, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

merit badge college

I am currently attending a merit badge college to finish up some incomplete requirements for some merit badges I need for eagle. I thaught it would be a good idea to make an article on this. Is this already an article? Is it as widespread as I think it is? Is It worthy to be an article? Thanks. schyler 00:18, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, these are fairly common. I do not know if they are held in countries outside the USA. I do not think it warrants a separate article, but rather should be a subsection of Merit badge (Boy Scouts of America). Rlevse 00:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Can it not be added to another page on Merit Badges? It would only be a brief stub otherwise and we have too many of those. I see I am agreeing with Rlevse who has added a comment as I edited. --Bduke 00:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I added the subsection, but it looks kind of bare to me. Feel free to add to it. schyler 01:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Looks good so far, going to need a source for the information if possible. --Naha|(talk) 14:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
There isn't really a source for the information. I wrote what I have experienced. schyler 13:25, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Nothing about this can be found on Google? Even if your info. is correct, it's best to not make it look like original research. --Myles Long/cDc 20:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Portal Link

I am wondering whether we are overdoing by putting the Portal link on every article where we have seen fit to add the Wikiproject template to the talk page. The Boys Brigade, for example, might not appreciate this (I have no problem about them included in Scouting Categories). Other cases that concern me are people. For example Charles Maclean of Duart, Baron Maclean was Lord Chamberlain, which is effectively the Speaker of the House of Lords - equivalent to the Vice-President's role in the US Senate. This is rather more important than that he was a Chief Scout. It will be interesting to see whether any of these Portal links are removed, or whether anyone outside the Scouting Project objects. --Bduke 02:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I have been thinking over this myself the last day or so. I think the portal link should only be on "main" scouting pages, if that makes sense...not every single tiny thing. I feel that Category links on article pages and Project notices on the talk page are sufficient for small (not insignificant) but ..articles of ...lesser importance? I also don't think the Portal link should be on pages where the person's main involvement/main drift of the article is not related to Scouting, per the above mentioned example. We just don't want to overdo it :) --Naha|(talk) 05:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I haven't seen anyone remove it yet, that I've noticed, but on one article they did move it down into the Scouting section of the article. Works for me. Also consider, that the Boys Brigade or whomever, might get offended if we did NOT include them. I think that if they objected to being in the project, they'd have removed the template by now, and no one has that I'm aware of. On the other hand, I do see where you're coming from. If anyone removes the template or portal link, we'll leave it that way. I've moved the portal link on the Baron's stub into the stub area (he has two stub notices on his article). The category and project links do not notify people we have a portal, they'd have to dig for it. This provides a way for them to easily see what we have going on.Rlevse 11:12, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I am more than happy with that. However, just to clarify. I am sure the Boys Brigade want to be in the project, but that does not necessarily mean they want the Scouts Portal link on their page. The project covers Scouting and related organisations, but the Portal might be seen as being just Scouts and Guides. --Bduke 11:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
The only reason I hadn't removed any is because I wanted to discuss it first :P But I'm satisfied with this. I'll leave them be unless there is consensus to remove them or move them to a specific section of an article. --Naha|(talk) 14:26, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Both the portal and project headers clearly state that we are not just Scouts and Guides, that we include all Scouting. And again, if anyone wants to remove the portal tag, it won't bug me. On a different note, I'm 90% done adding the portal tag, so it's kind of late to turn back; plus, I've found many Scouting articles that weren't in the project, didn't even have the template, had wrong categories, missing region templates, etc. It's been a time consuming but productive evolution. Rlevse 12:44, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
You are doing an outstanding job :) --Naha|(talk) 14:26, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I'll second that. --Bduke 20:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the portal link from the YMCA page. The YMCA only has a passing connection to scouting. Please take this in the good humour that is intended, but the portal tag smacks a little of a 'gang' tag on some of the pages. Cometward 05:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Articles for the Wikipedia 1.0 project

Hi, I'm a member of the Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-class, B-class, and Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Can you recommend any suitable articles? I noticed your list of FAs, are there any others? Please post your suggestions here. Thanks a lot! Gflores Talk 17:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

FA Status

History of merit badges (Boy Scouts of America)

A-class

George Thomas Coker, Arthur Rose Eldred, Eagle Scout rank (Boy Scouts of America), , Owasippe Scout Reservation

B-Class

Traditional Scouting, Wood Badge

Edit war on Scouting

What started as an edit war by someone outside of Scouting WP has grown into a personal attack on me on Scouting. WOSM has guidelines on how and when countries are acceptable and when not, I am sure they are copied somewhere, meanwhile I am trying to keep the damned thing NPOV. I am already burning out on the Wikipedia due to all the smallmindedness, and recent attacks of late because of my doing what we had already discussed and established are just about to chase me off entirely. Would someone please back me up here and take some of the burden off of me personally on this one? For the love of B-P, I'm calling for assistance pronto. YiS, Chris 02:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Dude, chill. -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 03:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Template:User Scout-former

Can we close off the debate on Template talk:User Scout-former about effectively deleting this template, although of course it has not actually been put up for deletion. Some people wanted to use it to express dissagreement with BSA on their stand against gays, but a new userbox for this was created. Since then the debate has calmed down and the consensus is "Keep". Can we just add to the bottom of the debate that the Scouting Project is not going to propose the deletion of this template? --Bduke 21:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a merge expert, but I think you can and then remove the appropriate merge headers. Rlevse 21:31, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Pulp and Paper Merit Badge

I hate to say this, but Pulp and Paper Merit Badge seems like a completely unencyclopedic article. I don't want User:NThurston to in any way feel unwelcome or unappreciated, but this kind of article simply doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. WP:NOT says:

  • Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. This page is a how-to guide to getting to the badge, which is not permitted.
  • Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files. The article is, for the most part, just a list of links.

The article likely doesn't deserve its own page in the first place. After all, how much is there to say about the merit badge? Information about pulp and paper already exists in various articles. Lists of requirements don't belong on Wikipedia. Merit badge pamphlets don't belong on Wikipedia. This article is going to, sooner or later, get nominated for deletion. YiS — Rebelguys2 talk 07:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I entirely agree. It starts by saying it is a "resource page" for scouts. This is not the job of WP and will be like a red rag to the deletionists. It should be moved to Wikibooks. Resource pages there for merit pages would be a good idea. --Bduke 07:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The page has been nominated for deletion here. — Scm83x talk 07:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Did someone say deletionist? :-) I clicked through with every intention of listing it for afd, to find that Scm83x beat me to it (and edited here while I was typing this). If someone wants to create resource aides for MBs over at wikibooks, that's fine and dandy, but for now meritbadge.com seems more than up to the task. -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 07:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the positive concerns. I have addressed them and will consider wikibooks. I must say, that I am surprised that for all your expertise in Wiki deletion policy, you seem to have forgotten the fundamental purpose of what Wiki is. What kind of comments are "The article likely doesn't deserve its own page in the first place." and "Merit badge pamphlets don't belong on Wikipedia." Is Wikipedia running out of space? Some articles on smaller topics are still valuable in this environment. I firmly support the idea of making more information available, not less.
It seems furthermore surprising that the two deletionists above jumped on a page that had not even been fully developed and their preferred solution was to delete it rather than make it better. This is not the way to encourage dialog and cooperation, nor is it a way to make newcomers feel welcome or appreciated, FWIW.
As for meritbadge.com and USSSP, they are both limited by the fact that the webmasters control input and information. As a result meritbadge.com is woefully out of date. USSSP is much better and is a valuable service, but does not have the advantage of community-based input. They have to referee every suggestion, and since they are volunteers, there are limitations. In any case, I would still appreciate more positive comments and suggestions. NThurston 17:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Please read WP:NOT really careful. Wikipedia is not the space to store anything, but a project to create an encyclopedia. --jergen 17:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I have read through it very carefully (again), and still feel that documenting the images, history, nature, and contributions of a particular merit badge does not run afoul of any of the proscriptions there, especially items listed under 1.7 which seems to be the original beef. Perhaps I am missing something, but I would think that documenting the history (past and present) of Scouting's awards, how they are earned, etc. is a worthy encyclopedic entry. Would you mind taking a look at it in its current form and suggesting how the article could be improved? Thanks NThurston 21:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Image Issues

I'm concerned with the use of Image:--ScoutsChris3.jpg in {{ScoutingWikiProject}}. The problem is that, since the image is labeled as a logo, and therefore used under considerations of fair use (the criteria, of which all must be met, can be found here: Wikipedia:Fair_use#Images) can only be used in articles. It can't be used in templates (the userboxes and the one at the top of Scouting-related talk pages), Wikipedia namespace (such as in this project), portals (such as the one up for featured candidacy), user pages, and the like. Though people aren't hunting down the use of this logo, it's a legal issue for the Wikimedia Foundation and something we should actively try to avoid. Anyone have suggestions for an alternative? — Rebelguys2 talk 07:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I thought this was used because it not actually the logo used by anyone and that it is open source. Was it introduced by User:Kintetsubuffalo? If so, why not ask him. He was editing yesterday even though his page says he has quit fpr a while. --Bduke 08:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
If it's open source, the fair use tag on the image page certaintly does not reflect that. I'm not sure about the status. — Rebelguys2 talk 09:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
When he made it, he said it was an old unused logo. That's all I remember.Rlevse 11:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

U.S. trademark law

The 1916 Act of congress did not create any copyright interests because the Constitution specifies that copyrights may only be granted for "limited times," and the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) do not claim any copyrights, using the registered trademark (R) symbol alone in conjunction with their logo, and not the (C) symbol.

U.S. law protects the use of trademarks by nonowners for purposes of criticism and commentary. First Amendment considerations override any expressive, noncommercial use of trademarks. "The Constitution is not offended when the [Maine] antidilution statute is applied to prevent a defendant from using a trademark without permission in order to merchandise dissimilar products or services. ... The Constitution does not, however, permit the range of the antidilution statute to encompass the unauthorized use of a trademark in a noncommercial setting such as an editorial or artistic context." (emphasis added) L.L. Bean, Inc. v. Drake Pubs., Inc., 811 F.2d 26, 31, 33 (1st Cir. 1987).

Similarly, the Federal Trademark Dilution Act of 1995 does not apply to the "noncommercial use" of a famous mark. 15 U.S.C. 1125(c)(4)(B). The U.S. Supreme Court has defined "commercial speech" as "speech which ... propose[s] a commercial transaction." Virginia Pharmacy Ed. v. Virginia Citizens Consumer Council, Inc., 425 U.S. 748, 762 (1976).

The only limit on that right is whether someone might think that the commentary was produced by the trademark owner, and this limit is explicity defined in reference to Boy Scouts. "[A]n author certainly would have a First Amendment right to write about the subject of the Boy Scouts and/or Girl Scouts. However, this right is diluted by trademark law insofar as that author cannot present her subject in a manner that confuses or misleads the public into believing, through the use of one or more trademarks, that those organizations have produced or sponsored the work in question." (emphasis added) Girl Scouts of the United States v. Bantam Doubleday Dell Publishing Group, Inc., 808 F. Supp. 1112 at 1121, n. 12 (S.D.N.Y. 1992.) --James S. 15:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Whatever the case, that means that {{Template:Scoutlogo}} isn't accurate all the time. This photo may deserve a different tag, but it can't be labeled "fair use" if it's to stay in templates and user pages. — Rebelguys2 talk 16:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Alternative image

I contacted Chris, who created an alternative image located at Image:GreenGold.jpg, which he licensed under GFDL. It not only contains a fleur-de-lis, but it is superimposed over a trefoil for the Girl Guides and does not contain an English-speaker-only rocker reading "Be Prepared." What does everyone think of the new image? If it works, we should replace the improperly used fair use image. Thanks, Chris! — Rebelguys2 talk 07:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

He's also created two more alternatives: Image:Scoutsgreengold1.jpg and Image:Scoutsgreengoldnoscroll.jpg. — Rebelguys2 talk 08:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Proposed Image #1
Proposed Image #1
Proposed Image #2
Proposed Image #2
Proposed Image #3
Proposed Image #3



Shall we have a vote on them? --Bduke 10:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

  • I prefer the 3rd one mentioned. --Bduke 10:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree, the 3rd one, Image:Scoutsgreengoldnoscroll.jpg, is the one I prefer. Rlevse 11:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • agree. Where's the barnstar version? :-) --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree, that one (#3) is swell. --Myles Long/cDc 16:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • #3, looks much more asthetic to me. - Pureblade | Θ 17:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Number 1 is my vote. I like the plainer image.evrik 02:58, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Agree, with the third one being my favorite -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 22:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
      • There's an preference for #3, so I'll test that out. Rlevse 11:12, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Transparent

Scoutsgreengoldnoscroll.png
Scoutsgreengoldnoscroll.png
This user is a member of the Scouting WikiProject.
This user is a member of the Scouting WikiProject.
This user is a member of the Scouting WikiProject.
This user is a member of the Scouting WikiProject.
This user is a member of the Scouting WikiProject.
This user is a member of the Scouting WikiProject.
This user is a member of the Scouting WikiProject.
This user is a member of the Scouting WikiProject.



This is a .PNG version with transparency. I took the liberty of changing the ScoutingWikiProject template to use this. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Ed: But it's not showing up as transparent, the background is still white. Also, for pages that have white background, the part inside the green trefoil outline needs to stay white. Rlevse 12:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused: it's transparent on the template at the top of this page, and on the drafts of the User Scouting WikiProject template. It does need to be used on the proper background: the original User Scouting WikiProject template uses a green background that absorbs the trefoil. --Gadget850 ( Ed)

Ed: I think we're defining "transparent" differently. To me that means the white box around the design goes away and the color of whatever box it is in closes into the border of the design (here, the green Girl Scout outline)....As for the box choices (nice job!), I like the green one at the center of the top row because I think the color should match the color scheme of the portal, which is green. Rlevse 14:18, 17 February 2006 (UTC)randy

Ah: Do you mean the interior of the trefoil should remain white? When you apply transparency, in this case to the white background, then everything that is white becomes transparent. I'd have to shift the white a bit between the inside and outside to make the technically different and reapply the transparency. Perhaps this weekend. --Gadget850 ( Ed)

That's what I meant, the interior would stay white. Then if we go that route, the green border trefoil would need to have enough contrast with the background color of what we use it on, which is mainly the portal and project template. This may not turn out well, but I'd like you to try it for a look see when you get a chance and show us the results. Rlevse 14:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Also remember that transparent PNGs don't work in IE-- your background is always white there. --CannotResolveSymbol talk 21:48, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Ah! No wonder: I normally use FireFox, but I see the problem when I use IE. Guess I'll switch to a .GIF. Thanks! --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Scout Images and Copyright

From what I can tell from reading the Wiki guidelines, when someone scans in a patch or other Scout-related design, the scan is subject to the same copyright situation as the item being scanned. Hence, a front-on photo of the Mona Lisa has no copyright, because the Mona Lisa has no copyright. So, what do we know about the copyright status of Scout-related images, especially BSA images? For example, if I scan in the Arrow of Light knot, is that protected by copyright? If so, what fair use guidelines would apply? NThurston 23:21, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Put a msg on Rebelguys2's talk page, he understands this better than most of us.140.32.75.24 20:02, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, most badges we have lying around at the moment are subject to copyright as they're fairly recent; any work is always automatically protected under copyright guideline. There's really no one guideline I can set out, but here's a quick (hah!) summary regarding all BSA-related images, from what I can tell thus far. If the image isn't from the United States, of course, it's a completely new mess.
  • For old, copyright-expired BSA images (pre-1923):
    • The BSA's logos are explicitly protected by a 1916 clause in the United States Code. However, they aren't protected from all use by others. L.L. Bean, Inc. v. Drake Pubs., Inc., the Federal Trademark Dilution Act of 1995, Virginia Pharmacy Ed. v. Virginia Citizens Consumer Council, Inc., and Girl Scouts of the United States v. Bantam Doubleday Dell Publishing Group effectively say, to put it briefly, that anyone is allowed to use or modify a trademark for non-commercial use provided the audience isn't being mislead.
    • The grey area is the fact that those rulings still say that images cannot be used for non-commerical use. Wikipedia does not allow images with any trace of a "non-commercial" clause, per Jimbo's ruling. As a result, they probably need some kind of fair use tag, but, therefore can't be used anywhere other than in articles. Some of you may have seen my discussion regarding a modified image up for deletion a while back; I went ahead and conceded, though I'm really unsure about this "non-commercial" problem.
  • For current BSA images (post-1923):
    • Everything published after 1923 is still, automatically, under copyright. Therefore, every one of these images technically require a fair use rationale (i.e., either it illustrates the subject or provides critical commentary — and no alternative is easily available) for each page they're located on, and cannot be placed anywhere other than within an article. Someone designed a fair use tag for Scouting images at {{scoutlogo}}; that's a good and convenient way for us to justify use of others' images.
    • The current arrow for the OA, for example, is still under copyright. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm too young to remember, but the current arrow design is, in relative terms, fairly recent. Therefore, it requires a fair use rationale.
    • As far as generating a new copyright when you take a photo or scan something, it depends on whether the subject is 2-D or 3-D. I'm inclined to say that patches are 2-D, and, therefore, these images are therefore protected, as we display patches like they are 2-D images. You would need a fair use rationale. However, nearly every technical aspect of copyright is debatable — otherwise, it'd be cut and dry and we'd have no use for patent lawyers.
  • Additional Notes:
    • I've seen argued, over and over again and all throughout Wikipedia, that a derivative work was not taken from the original — it's not the same size, it's not the same color, I drew it myself, etc. Copyright is generated only by instances of "creativity" (how vague is that?), and, therefore, redrawing a copyrighted image yourself isn't going to count for anything. Of course, some subjects are a little more open; I wouldn't expect to draw a dart board and infringe on Target stores, or to draw a generic fleur-de-lis and infringe on a Scouting copyright.
Frankly, most of the stuff you scan in will likely be copyrighted and in need of a fair use tag, unless it was from before January 1, 1923. It's quite a pain in the ass, yes. Don't worry too much about it, as that's not and shouldn't be the focus of most Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia copyright guidelines are still being discussed and debated, regardless. I've only myself brought up the issue twice regarding Scouting images, as I didn't want to see a violation when the Scouting Portal went up for featured candidacy, and because userboxes are an extremely touchy and hard-hit subject on Wikipedia at the moment. There's plenty more to be done — at the end of December, nearly 40,000 images were completely untagged, and I can't even imagine how many were done so wrongly — so let's not dwell too much, except for those images that we use extremely prominently throughout Wikipedia. — Rebelguys2 talk 22:38, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

  • {{Infobox Scouting}} - what needs to be placed in the info box?evrik 20:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
We haven't decided yet. I'm moving this to the bottom of the talk page, which we keep in date order. Rlevse 22:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Why did it get deleted?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Scouting&curid=3772830&diff=53172201&oldid=53169432

--evrik 13:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone created it. It also is dupe listed on the Todo page. To look at the person's proposed box, go to the Todo page and click on the link. (It's the first one under "Project-related". Rlevse 14:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

List of Famous Scouts

Is there a list of famous Scouts? This was just added to the Cradle of Liberty page.evrik 17:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The List of Eagle Scouts is the closest. There is no article on non-Eagles who were famous but Scouts. Rlevse 18:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

List of Famous Scouts and Scouters These men were Scouts or Scouters, but did not complete the Eagle Rank.

  1. Henry "Hank" Aaron, athlete (baseball), Silver Buffalo Award; Is often thought to be an Eagle because of an advertisement he did for the BSA.
  2. Walter Cronkite beloved Journalist, T.V. commentator
  3. Henry Fonda, actor, Academy Award winner, was a Scout and Scoutmaster
  4. Harrison Ford: a Life Scout; Ford also played Indiana Jones, a fictional Life Scout in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
  5. Bill Gates, Life Scout and richest man in the world, see entry on his father William H. Gates, Sr. in Eagle Scout list
  6. George Hooks, politician (Georgia State Senate)
  7. Jimmy Stewart, Second Class Scout, actor, Brigadier General, Silver Buffalo Award, Presidential Medal of Freedom
  8. Tommy Lasorda[1]
  • Notes
  1. ^ DaGroomes, Kathy Vilim (Mar - Apr 2006). "Dodgers Icon Shares Love Of Baseball and Scouting". Scouting Magazine, p. 36. www.scoutingmagazine.org

If you want to start such a list, go ahead. Just make sure it meets the same standard as the Eagle Scout list. Remember that many of the lists on the web are unsubstantiated. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:12, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Will do. evrik 16:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Youth involvement in the Asia-Pacific Scout Region

Note that this is up for deletion. I have taken a truncated part of the article and added it to Asia-Pacific Scout Region. I think this appropriate and the article can and should be deleted. --Bduke 23:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Cradle of Liberty

Has anyone seen the language written on the controversies portion of the Cradle of Liberty page? evrik 20:49, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I just looked at it, but I don't get your point by leaving this notice as you're the one who apparently wrote it. Pls. explain. Rlevse 11:59, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I didn't write it. I did break it out inot its own section. evrik 03:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

List of BSA local Order of the Arrow (OA) lodges

This article has been recreated after being deleted after AfD. It is now prod'ed for deletion again. Are USA participants aware of what is going on here? --Bduke 10:03, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know this was recreated, but we want it deleted. There are hundreds of OA lodges, and this lists only 3. We're working on grouping them by state (my understanding at least). Thanks for letting us know. Rlevse 10:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Scouting in Greater Glasgow

I have added the above article. This takes care of the small amount of usefull information in 24th Glasgow (Bearsden) Scout Group which has been prod'ed for deletion and the original author has not responded to me. I was able to add information about two other interesting groups and something about this Scout Area in general. --Bduke 02:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Good work! Rlevse 11:55, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Images needed - bounty offered!

For an organization with millions of members, some of whom must have earned the photography merit badge or similar, we are doing a remarkably poor job of uploading images to the commons.[1] Even counting the drawings of polish awards, and the multiple headshots of Robert Baden-Powell, we have less than 20 images there. Only one shows a tent. None show a campfire. None shows scouts hiking, or orienteering or cooking or performing a ceremony or.... We are not doing a good job of representing scouting! If you have photos you can upload, please do so. If you find relevant photos here under a free license (not fair use) please move those over to the commons as well. Putting them on the commons makes them available for all languages of Wikipedia. Johntex\talk 03:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Also, I created a new article today, 50-miler award, I also listed it at Template talk:Did you know. To get us started on uploading more images, I will donate $20 to Wikimedia Foundation in the name of whomever uploads to the commons (under free license) a suitable image of BSA scouts hiking or canoing such that the factoid and image make the main page. (Limited to BSA since it is a BSA award.) Johntex\talk 03:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
    • I just uploaded several photos. evrik 15:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
      • Thank you! That is a great contribution! Johntex\talk 19:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
    • I've only pictures of German Scouts hiking. I could upload some more, but they may seem strange to Non-German Scouts (strange tents, uniforms and backpacks and so on). Any wishes? --jergen 16:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
      • I'd like to see them there. Rlevse 18:30, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
      • I'd also like very much to see them. Even though they wouldn't be a good fit for the 50-miler award article, they will be great to use in other places. Johntex\talk 19:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
        • How about BSA Scouts in Germany? I need to go through my scrapbooks and find some good photos. Perhaps tomorrow- Venturing tonight! --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
          • BSA Scouts in Germany would be fine - but hurry - the article will make the Main Page soon and the bounty will expire! Johntex\talk 18:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I can upload a few photos of Scouts in action. Can someone clue me in as to what licensing I would/should claim? NThurston 20:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Hi NThurston, that is great!
      1. Assuming you took these yourself, I would suggest you go to upload them at Wikipedia commons: [2]. Putting them on the commons makes the available to all language versions of Wikipedia, not just the English version.
      2. I suggest that you choose the licensing option "Own work, attribution required (Multi-license with GFDL and Creative Commons CC-BY 2.5)", which is available from the drop-down menu. IANAL, but from what I understand, this option gives a lot of flexibility to whoever uses the image in future works, but it does require them to acknowledge you as the original creator.
      3. Please give your image a distinctive name (For example, not "hike2.jpg" but "Boy_Scouts_hiking_in_thunderstorm_in_Canadian_Rockies_2005.jpg") and as detailed a description as you can. Here is a great image with a good name and a great description: [3].
      4. Finally, don't forget to categorize your images so that future editors can fing them and use them. (Category:Scouting, Category:Camping, etc, as appropriate).
      5. If you don't have time to categorize and describe them fully, you can always upload now and come back and add to your categories and descriptions later. The filename and licensing are a little harder to change after the fact.
    • Thanks in advance for the imgaes! Johntex\talk 21:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Section (Scouting)

I have cleared up a confusion with Scouting sections and Section (Scouting). The latter was proposed for merge into the former, while the former was proposed for merge into the Scout Association. The former is a UK page so this is appropriate and consensus has been reached to do it. I have done that merge. The latter is an international page in that it does not mention UK Scouting but it has the flavour of UK Scouting. So, do we expand it to make a good international article or delete it? --Bduke 22:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd say merge Section (Scouting) into Scouting. It's pretty generic and short as it is. Rlevse 23:13, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Yep, I thought of that just after writing the above comment. I'll put merge tags on later. I'm about to go for a train into town. --Bduke 00:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Troop 449

This is up for deletion and deservably so. Perhaps a bit of it can be saved in some BSA Kansas article. Up to you BSA guys. --Bduke 08:20, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

This is pure vanity. I wouldn't even save it in a Kansas article. Rlevse 11:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Troop 26 and ‎Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Troop 34. Chris 00:32, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I just marked Troop 963 for deletion. Rlevse 00:40, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

8th Georgetown (South) Sea Scout Group

This is up for deletion. I agree, but there is some usefull stuff here and surely someone can save it somewhere else. Sure, it is a mess. I think it is Malaysia. Where to put it? --Bduke 10:54, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

The Maylasia aritcle is Persekutuan_Pengakap_Malaysia. I'll move appropriate stuff there if you don't want to. Rlevse 11:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I want someone who knows what they are doing to move stuff. I'm not sure either of us know about this. --Bduke 11:15, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think we have a Maylasia specialist, if that's what you mean. Actually moving stuff is easy. Rlevse 11:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Pleasae have a go. I need to collapse into bed and we are off on a day trip tomorrow. --Bduke 11:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Colaboration

Wasn't there supposed to be a vote for April's montly colaboration already? Or am I missing something?Griz 01:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Nobody bothered to vote, only nominate (see Portal:Scouting/Current collaboration candidates) and I had 4 to pick from, so I picked one. Two cycles back was BP, then Juliette Low (GSUSA), now Philmont (BSA). I'd like to have an international one next month, but we'll see. I know you nominated Studio 2b, and I'm sure we'll have it up there before too many more cycles. Rlevse 02:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
PS most of the portal topics don't even have things nominated, I have to pick them on my own. Rlevse 02:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Isn't there anything we can do to incourage voting and help with editing? Griz 18:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I've tried, but it is all volunteer and I'm glad to get any help at all. Rlevse 23:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
We should start a small campaign to try to talk to people via talk pages to inspire intrest, show them what we are doing. Maybe make a template for the top of nominated articles to bring attention to them, Star Wars wiki project does this. Any suggestions? Griz 00:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Beaver Scouts

There are now two articles for this section. Beavers (Scouting) is the general international article and it needs expanding to indicate where a name other than Beaver is used. Beaver Scouts is a UK Scouting article. I have fixed a lot of links but please look out for others, particularly those international pages that might be pointing to the UK article. --Bduke 23:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

UK Photos Wanted

Just a callout for photographs of UK Scouting - ideas for subjects:

  • camping
  • older photos of uniforms, etc
  • activities

I have a number of photos of active Explorer Scouts (ie, not on parade), and might be able to get some others - please remember not to name anyone who is under 18 in the pictures, and to get permission of the copyright owner first. Horus Kol 15:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

UK Scout Activity Centres

I'm starting to put together articles on the UK National Scout Activity Centres - like Youlbury using the Kandersteg International Scout Centre as a template. I'm also looking to expand the Gilwell Park article. If anyone can find some pictures/photographs of these places, then please let me know. Horus Kol 15:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll take some in Gilwell Park next week. --jergen 19:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see these Gilwell photos too. Rlevse 11:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Since we had really bad British weather during our WSJ preparation trip, most of my pictures look like "Gilwell Park in the Dawn". I feel they are to bad to be included. --jergen

Anyone else see Penn and Teller

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scouting in Vatican City and other smaller countries

This fellow wants to delete a whole bunch of the smaller Scouting country articles. Chris 17:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

STRONGLY ENCOURAGE VOTING ON THIS. Rlevse 18:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Scouting Collectors Society

If you are interested in collecting, take a look at this. It has NO links and NOTHING links to it! Someone needs to work on this or put it up for AfD. --Bduke 10:42, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The use who created it, Scouttrader, has nothing on his talk or user page. I haven't seen that name before. I also haven't heard of that org before, but I do belong to ISCA. I'll add this to our Todo page. Rlevse 11:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Great. It is a real mess, but maybe something can be saved. I never was into badge collecting, so I really can not help. --Bduke 22:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
This is clearly a vanity page. See also Deryl Radder and http://profiles.yahoo.com/scoutrader. I know this is not a vote yet, but I'd say delete. Zaian 08:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't object to a delete on this, but for now, I've added verify, importance, and wikify tags to it, just as the Radder article has. Rlevse 10:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I've now nominated both of these for deletion. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scouting Collectors Society and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Deryl Radder. Zaian 21:35, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
They have both been deleted after unanimous votes, and with no comment from the author. Zaian 08:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

BSA WikiProject?

I was wondering, that since we have many members who list their area of primary interest as BSA, could we form a child project of BSA? I would be happy to help contribute, but I have no experiance, and as such, I have no idea how to start such a thing. Billvoltage 04:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

That is one option, but IMHO BSA is already a defacto child project of the Scouting project. My suggestion is to work on BSA articles, contact the more active BSA members, and look at the Todo page. If you want more details, send me an email (see my talkpage). Rlevse

Queen's Scout userbox

Needing relaxation, I was moved to create this userbox for Queen's Scouts. Something for the Brits, Aussies and Kiwis and others. What do you think? It is not created in template space yet.

This user is a Queen's Scout.

--Bduke 10:00, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


I have removed "Image:Qs-logo-gradient.jpg" which needs replacing by a non-copyright image of the Queen's Scout badge. Image:Scoutsgreengoldnoscroll.png is used merely as a stop-gap. --Bduke 03:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I like it, but the image logo says the it may be copyrighted. Also, fair use images are not supposed to be used in userboxes, which is why we had to create our own image for use in the Eagle Scout box vice using the Eagle Scout rank badge. I'd suggest either elaborating on your legal right to use it or finding something clearly ok for userboxes. I wouldn't object to the logo you have, but there are Wikipedians who worry about such things (image tags, category names, etc). Rlevse 10:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Guess you are right. I'll work on it over the weekend. --Bduke 13:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Girl Scout Userbox

I'm not quite sure how to make a userbox, if I did I would have made this one long ago. There are boxes for Boyscouts, Queen's scouts, and Eagle scouts, but nothing for Girl scouts and Girl scout gold award winners. If someone would be willing to show me how to make userboxes I could do it, or if somebody else wants to do it or collaborate on it. Any thoughts on this? Griz 14:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

It's actually quite easy. I have created two new Userboxes: Girl Scout, and Girl Scout Gold with some generic features. You can then edit these pages as you see fit. NThurston 21:41, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I tweaked the Girl Scout one a little bit, when I get back from my band trip on Sunday, I'll tweak the Gold award and try to make a Silver Award userbox and change the pics around a bit. Thanks for helping me start. Griz 02:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I've added them to the Wiki userbox section on Scouting. Rlevse 03:16, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I've created Template:User_GSSilver and have adjusted the Girl Scout and Gold Award templates to be more consistent with other Scouting userboxes. I also added GSSilver to the Wiki userbox section. NThurston 13:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if we can get the Girl scout ones to look more, well Girl Scoutish instead of the hat?Griz 19:40, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Hat? The Girl Scout user boxes currently have the trefoil & flor-de-lis image that was developed for the Wiki scouting project. See Wiki userbox section. You can change it if you like, though. NThurston 21:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
whoops, brain fart, sorry, I'm under the most stress in my life right now.Griz 14:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm back from my break and have changed the Girl Scout picture on the icon to the WAGGGS symbol. I'm going to see what I can do with the Gold and Silver award pictures since the Gold Award is TM. I could try to get actual pictures of them or search elsewhere, or even find something else to represent them. Griz 16:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The Silver award finaly has a picture, I found a way around TM, I took a picture of my own award and I am changing the background on the Gold and Silver Templates to gold and silver. The Girl Scout Template is being worked on with pictures from User:kintetsubuffalo.Griz 16:56, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Current BSA Userbox

A new userbox Template:User_current_BSA is available for those who may be interested. NThurston

Good one! Rlevse 22:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Articles that should be added

I ws noticing that there's no articles on White stag training (BSA Jr. Leadership Training, sorry if it seems I'm being baised toward BSA). Also I forgot if there was a page on wiki scout articles that need to be added to or created (the web links aren't always clear). --KB1KOI-- (17:04) UTC 2006-05-15

White Stag isn't a national program- the term appears to be used only in certain councils. Many councils have used local names for various training programs. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

True. Local councils have been allowed to preserve some traditions (such as names) as they implement the new National Youth Leadership Training (NYLT) program. Our local council has two versions - one for Boy Scouts and one for Varsity. Still, the point is well taken. Someone should start an article for Youth Leadership Training. Unfortunately, my knowledge of the new and previous programs are only what I have experienced plus what I have read on the BSA site. I put this topic on the requested articles list a while back and haven't seen any action. I would contribute what I know once the article is started, but feel unqualified to start one. --NThurston 20:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

As best I understand, TLD (1973) was based on the White Stag program developed by Dr Béla H. Bánáthy. As such, it probably belongs as a footnote in the Boy Scout article. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

From the White Stag web site, it would appear that this is both the genesis and a localized implementation of the former Junior Leader Training program. It does not appear that current White Stag courses incorporate the updated training available in National Youth Leader Training. Thus, I would like to see an article on Youth Leadership Training (Boy Scouts of America) which would be a fine place to document the differences, histories, etc. Any takers? --NThurston 21:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Bucks County Council

Not a member of this project, but thought you ought to know, I've turned the above redirect into a disambig page: in the UK "Bucks" is the short form of Buckinghamshire, and Buckinghamshire County Council, frequently shortened to Bucks County Council or BCC is very well-known. -- Francs2000 15:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Kandersteg but not Wiltz yet? Kingsdown? Gilwell House?

I do see a nice article on the Scout city of Kandersteg in Switzerland, but I fail to see one on the large Scout camp in Wiltz in Luxemburg. Both have in Europe similar fame, and giving its location closer to UK and Netherlands (two big Scouting nations) than Switzerland, this is definitely a highly attractive place to go: with seven very large campsites and eight very commodious chalets, they accommodate hundreds of scouts during camping season!

And how about the noteworthy scout places of the UK, such as Kingsdown Scout Camp (near Deal, Kent), nearly closed two years ago, and Gilwell House in London? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:35, 27 May 2006 (UTC).

Feel free to start article on these centers. But please remember that Wikipedia doesn't like advertising.
Also I think thas KISC is more important than the centers mentioned, because it's run by WOSM and not any national association. --jergen 09:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Is'nt it B-P House in London, not Gilwell House? --Bduke 09:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Yes, it is: Baden-Powell House. And the big house on Gilwell Park isn't called Gilwell House either. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 16:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC).
    • I nominated the Baden-Powell House article for GA. After that I'll throw it to the lions in a PR. Of course everybody is invited to tweak the article to your liking. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC).

Hey everybody...

Check out colaboration of the month, it's a great way to fix up articles to make them good or even FA status eventualy, the best part is that you don't have to do it alone, or all you have to do is just simply vote or nominate an article that you think needs fixed up. Check it out of you so feel inclined to. Darthgriz98 02:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Rustomji Edulji Sethna

Is it me, or is a founder of a single Scout troop (and not the first in India) not-entirely-notable? At least without other noted contributions? Chris 06:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed for speedy deletion. --jergen 08:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
definitely non-notable, should be in an Indian Scouting article. Rlevse 12:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


The founder of the Scout Troop, Rustomjee Eduljee Sethna that we are talking about brought about a major change in the political policy of a nation. During the early 1900's the British ruled India. Only British run scout troops could be officially registered. Therefore even thought Sethna started his scout troop for the Indian boys, he was not allowed to register it on the basis of color and caste.

Sethna felt that this was contrary to the spirit of scouting especially the part of the law that stated

"A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other scout, no matter to what country class or creed the other may belong."

He thus wrote to Baden Powell and Baden Powell's direct involvement in this matter with the Imperial Government brought about a change in the rules regarding registration of Boy Scout Troops in India.

Till that happened, Sethna did not register his troop. Some other Indian troops chose to register under a "native" classification, and Sethna would have none of it. He was a freedom fighter who stood up for his ideals and made the mighty British change their ways.

Why would you think that is not commendable or notable ??--arzan 13:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Arzan - I don't think it is so much an issue that "he" isn't notable, rather the information in the article doesn't portray him as notable. Please edit and expand the article in a NPOV fashion that documents his accomplishments and actions. You should include this information, for sure. NThurston 18:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • ARZAN and NTHURSTON: see

Wikipedia:WikiProject_Scouting/RulesStandards#Local_articles_.28Councils_and_smaller_entities.29 for why we don't have unit-level articles unless its really something extraordinary (and the pertinent part of the talk page). Rlevse 20:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  • The process has worked. At the end of the discussion, there was insufficient information added to the article to show that Sethna is in fact notable. Note that this discussion rests entirely on the content of the article, and makes no judgement about the person himself. Nice to see the process work properly. ==NThurston 13:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Girl Scout Ranks

There are articles for the Boy Scout ranks, do we need them for the Girl Scouts? What does anyone think about this? Darthgriz98 04:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. The reason there is less activity on GS articles is we have fewer people knowledgeable in that area. I suggest an overview article on all ranks first.Rlevse 09:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Meh what do I do to make a new article, I'm a bit rusty. Darthgriz98 21:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Call up an existing article and just type the name you want into the address line, replacing the existing article name. Rlevse 21:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks it will be up and cited by midnight! Darthgriz98 22:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Behold the newest Girl Scouts of the USA article up and ready: Girl Scout Ranks

Why is the TOC somewhere in the middle?

Hi all, I wondered why the Table of Contents is somewhere in the middle of the wikiproject page. It makes finding things in the page difficult. May I recommend a {{TOCright}} at the top of the page. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC).

Because we had a reason for it there when we started, which I don't recall why, and no one said anything until now-;).Rlevse 21:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC) PS..I still want announcements and intro on top and tocright makes a big blank area. Rlevse 21:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Pictures!

GSUSA needs your help! If you have or can get any pictures for the Girl Scout articles, it would be greatly appriciated! If you can help please do! Thanks a billion! Darthgriz98 00:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Category:Girl Scouts of America Local Councils

  1. Should we change the name of this category to "Girl Scouts of the USA Local Councils", in compliance with the organization name?
  2. Should we consider merging Far East and Transatlantic Councils and Direct Service, as we are trying to integrate Girl Scout Councils into the state articles, perhaps "American Scouting overseas" or something?

Chris 02:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I vote yes, GSA is not the correct name of the organization. As for the merging, how about following the pattern of the way the BSA ones are done?Rlevse 09:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes change it to USA since that's the name of the organization, I looked on the ones for PA, there are none! I shall have to get to work on changing that. Although, we might be changing the whole state into three councils instead of the numerous ones. Might want to wait on that one to see what happens. Darthgriz98 23:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations

Kudos to all contribuants of the Eagle Scout FA! Excellent piece of work. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 14:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC).

To prevent americophobia: a global logo on the portal?

Image:Scoutworldmembershipbadge.jpg Scouting Portal
PNG file Portal
GIF file Portal

As probably many non-Americans, I don't recognize myself in the US scout logo. Therefore I propose to use the global logo of the World Organization of the Scout Movement instead. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 14:15, 24 June 2006 (UTC).

No go. This is WOSM specific emblem and that would leave out WAGGGS (Girls) and the non-affiliated Scouting movements. Including all Scouting, not just WOSM, is a project/portal goal. Also the logo on the portal is not American. It was made using the Scouting colors selected by BP and made as a generic trefoil, so it is not specific to any country. The trefoil, in some form, is part of virtually every Scout assoication and the two stars are on many of them. Again, this is not an American logo; in fact it is loosely based on an old Canadian design. I don't see the problem, it seems a pretty basic and generic design to me. Rlevse 14:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry, you're right. It is indeed the generic wikiproject logo. It was so minimized that I failed to notice the similarity and therefore that it it generally applies. As it totally not looks like any scout logo I know (other than the US logo), I mistakenly assumed it being equal. My apologies, and of course motion retracted. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 16:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC).

Just one note: please use the PNG variant and not the GIF variant. PNG scales much better than GIF, so that you retain the Girl Guides' clover leave! A big difference on my FF browser. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 16:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC).

It makes a difference in IE too, so yes, let's use the png version. Rlevse 17:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Prehaps a recommendations for the {{ScoutingWikiProject}} template as well: PNGs also scale better to 75 pix than GIFs. I didn't want to be so bold, but highly recommend it. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC).

I must have done that about when you wrote that. I had at 50 for awhile today. Rlevse 22:10, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Camp Wolfeboro

Do you really think that the Camp Wolfeboro article is better off as a note inserted into the Scouting in California article, rather than standing by itself? (I suppose the same question applies to a lot of the other substantial entries on various camps run by the different CA councils.) The Scouting in California article is already quite lengthy, and could probably benefit from a bit of trimming-up. Anyhow, I am curious why you have made this move. Thanks, Dave Runger(t)⁄(c) 19:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, for several reasons

  1. There are only three or four camp articles large enough (whole pages, I mean) to be considered substantial articles, the rest are stubs. While it is good information, it is not yet enough to make a standalone article. If you will let it incubate within the Scouting in California article, and build upon it while it is there, it has the potential to be its own article of substance, but it is not there yet.
  2. The Scouting Wikiproject is trying to avoid where possible hundreds of small articles that do not meet Wikipedia's criteria for notability. There would be 300+ current council articles, the same number for OA lodges, and at least 1700 camp articles, and that's just Boy Scouting, do 2/3 again for Girl Scouts. In early February, 50+ small articles were deleted, at which point we decided that state-based articles inclusive of councils, lodges and other history would be the way to go. We're trying to build a comprehensive and not a fractured resource for Scouting.

I am also placing this discussion on the project's talk page, to get input from the other members. Chris 22:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I have to go with Chris on this. The Wolfboro article is nothing but a bunch of lists and links. To stand alone it'd need real work. Rlevse 00:28, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
See also the discussion at Talk:Western Los Angeles County Council--Chris 04:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Good Article for A-Class

I don't know if this is a standard wiki rule on or, so I'm asking for facts and opinions here...Should an article have passed through the Good Article, WP:GAC, process before we assign it an A-Class rating? If this isn't a standard wiki project rule, I'd like to make it so for the Scouting project. I've already rated several articles and for two of them, this is the only reason I gave them B vice A class. Note, you can not give GA unless the article went through the formal GA process. Rlevse 00:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

  • As one of the original designers of the current article classification system (in WP:Chem), perhaps I can help. The classification goes from Stub to Start to B-Class to A-Class. That's it. The GA qualification is an extra that a B-Class article may receive after a simple procedure, and the FA qualification is an extra that a A-Class article may receive with a more complete voting procecure. For B-Class the same requirements apply as for GA and for A-Class the same as FA. The four-tier classification system (Stub, Start, B-Class, A-Class) is what a wikiproject itself applies for its own articles. How you promote articles is up to your own design: could be an elaborate procedure with voting and a quorum, or it could be simply an active administrator (or several) who does the lot, as we do it in WP:Chem. So: GA is not required for anything. And the requirements for A-Class ought are those of FA, without the voting procedure. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC).
    • ps, about using the four-tier system: I even made a calculation method based on article classification, to determine the progress of a wikiproject. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC).
    • Very interesting. OK, I'd like to keep it similar to other project schemes, so we'll use GA for extra special rating for B articles. I do like the GA process, I'd like to point out. Rlevse 10:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Scout photo spamming

  • I moved this discussion to the Category_talk:Boy_Scouts_of_America_Local_Councils#Scout_photo_spammingpage to keep it all on one page. --evrik 17:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

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