Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sailor Moon/Archive 6

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Inner/Outer Senshi

Since it was discussed on the Sailor Senshi entry, it's worth discussing this here for the whole project. Namely, the project seems to favor two *very* bad fan terms, "Inner" and "Outer" Senshi. My main complaint is that these are fan terms and that attempting to define them at all creates a conflict with WP:No original research. I'll try to format this, but please correct my formatting for clarity if I've goofed.

Arguments in favor of using Inner/Outer Senshi:

  • They're popular terms and are commonly used, per WP:Anime.
  • They're easy to remember.
  • The few official canonical terms are long and not commonly used.

Arguments opposed to using Inner/Outer Senshi:

  • The terms are not consistently used to refer to the same characters. The page is attempting to decide without any authority what the proper usage of the fan terms is.
  • They're not canonical.
  • They're not accurate because they define the Moon as a planet, exclude Earth as an inner planet, and use the outer planet Jupiter as an inner planet. It also occasionally exclude Saturn from the Outer Senshi entirely.
  • Trying to standardize the terms in Wikipedia goes against WP:No original research.
  • Fans who know the terms by other definitions become confused when they see "Inner" or "Outer" Senshi when it is referring to a
  • Oppose. For the reasons stated above. As an alternative and in acknowledgement that canon terms are sketchy, I propose simply using the character's names so there is no confusion over who is being referred. For example, instead of guessing at who "Inner Senshi" is referring to, just say "Moon, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Venus". Rebochan 20:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. 1. It would take alot of work to change. 2. They are well known. 3. In cases of confusion (IE Saturn, Moon and Chibimoon) its easy to tell from context weather they are included. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 15:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment 1. So what? We do that all the time. It took me a long time to fix "Metaria" on every single page as it is. 2. A lot of things are well-known, wrong, and not used in this WikiProject. 3. It's not easy to Rebochan 20:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. They are popular fan terms... but that contravenes the rule of neologisms... However if they can be found in non-self published or similar media, then I would be less uncomfortable with their use. --GracieLizzie 21:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. In the manga (Act 39, for example) the term "Senshi of the Outer Solar System" is used; Outer Senshi is just a shortened form of that. In the musicals only, "Senshi of the Inner Solar System" appears too. It's Takeuchi who occasionally includes or excludes different members; that ambiguity is canonical to the series and isn't a fan invention. We can be careful with our usage of the terms, we can use them less to make sure we're always clear about who we mean, and we can remove attempts to "standardize" the language, but there's no reason to do away with them altogether. The distinction between the two groups exists and is important. --Masamage ♫ 21:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I addressed this a little on the Sailor Senshi article, but first, Senshi of the Outer *Star* system was used once in the manga to refer to Pluto, Uranus, and Neptune. It was never abbreviated to "Outer Senshi" except by fans. Also, when we discussed this in the other article, you said "inner four" and "outer four" were used in the musicals. Which term was it, where was it used and in what context? Regardless of which term it was, the musicals are never considered more canon than the rest of the series because it makes up its own character histories and terminology. Rebochan 20:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I waited to get home from my parents' to answer this because I wanted to double-check my manga, but no, it totally says "taiyoukei", which is this solar system, not some other star system. And I'm sorry for the confusion, but when I said "outer four" I was shortening "four senshi of the outer solar system". I did it without thinking, assuming you'd know what part of the article I was refering to without my having to type the whole thing out.
Here's the thing. "Outer" implies contrast with "Inner". There's a group of eight; the inward half are inner, and the outward half are outer. More importantly, "Outer" is an adjective and "Senshi" is a noun. Adjectives and nouns, like Outer...Senshi, are perfectly valid English constructions. It doesn't have to be an official name: it's a descriptive adjective.
And here's a possible solution. If it bothers you that it sounds official without being official, then we could just stop capitalizing the adjective, through in a clarifying number, and talk about the "outer four Senshi" and the "inner four Senshi". All the clarity, all the descriptiveness, none of the Shift key. --Masamage ♫ 05:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  • User:Davi Williams posted to the Sailor Senshi talk page here with lots of detail about where every group is canonically called what names, suggesting in the end that we use the terms "Guardian Senshi" for the inners and "Outer Solar System Senshi" for the outers. Thanks, Davi! --Masamage ♫ 05:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
    • (Personally, I think that if one of them has a name that can reasonably be shortened to "Outer Senshi," it makes just as much sense to call the other group the "Inner Senshi" out of sheer contrast. But see my comments above.) --Masamage ♫ 05:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
      • The only reason I hadn't suggested other names was because there seemed to be some resistance to using a longer term. But if that resistance for possibly using a longer term is gone, I won't dispute that. Rebochan 11:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
        • How about Guardian Senshi and Outer Senshi? Come to think of it, that name reflects the groups' respective roles, rather than their planets' locations. The first group are the Princess' guardians; the second group keep an external watch. --Masamage ♫ 17:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I think that Guardian senshi and Outer Senshi are reasonable. But I don't see why the length of a title given to describe a group matters...Sailor Heavy Metal Papillon is quite a long name, but regardless, it is her name. Davi Williams 20:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't have a problem with a long name if it's official, in which case why truncate to "Outer Senshi"? But again, there have been concerns that a long name that is official is worse than a short name that isn't. Rebochan 13:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
  • "...there have been concerns that a long name that is official is worse than a short name that isn't." How so? I am not trying to be argumentative, I would just like a little elaboration. Pretty please. ^_^ Davi Williams 03:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Just me being resistant for aesthetic reasons. >____> --Masamage ♫ 06:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

New article

Please take notice of SMS/Infinity, which appeared earlier today and which now has a request up for being moved to Sailor Moon S. --Masamage 07:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Heh, awesome. It probably should be moved there, in my opinion. Sbloemeke 11:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I linked it in the Template ^-^. The page isn't finished yet (No manga or are we doing that on a seperate page?) it seems... Lego3400: The Sage of Time

Right, it's not. And it's a little too long now. :) But it's a great start, and we can whip it into shape. --Masamage 17:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Question... What is OOU perspective? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbloemeke (talk • contribs)

Out-of-universe. We're supposed to write about fiction as a cultural phenomenon and not do any world-building or make it "feel real". Check out the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction). --Masamage ♫ 21:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh, OK. Yeah, definately needs that. Sbloemeke 23:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Lists

Some of the character articles use lists for powers, some of them have lists with anti-list tags, and some of them are not using lists at all. Is there a uniform policy in place on whether to go ahead and convert all of the lists to prose or leave them as lists? It seems easier to use a list, but obviously Wikipedia isn't too keen on that. Rebochan 12:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

We're slowly converting the lists to prose. Ami was first; Rei was next; Makoto's turn is at hand as soon as I have the time. --Masamage ♫ 17:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
It was something brought up during Ami's peer review - that lists are unencyclopaedic. As part of getting Ami up to GA, we lost the list and went with prose. I'd like us to get all of the Sailor Team's articles up to GA eventually, and I believe this could be another goal of our project. I once came across something connected with Pokemon (that also could be said to apply to Sailor Senshi) that Wikipedia Is Not a list of powers and fighting moves, but I can't find it again.  :P -Malkinann 23:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I see - I guess I was looking at an article in transition. Thanks for clarifying the policy. Rebochan 16:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Update the things to do list?

Some of the tasks are done, and some of them have shifted, should we update the list? --Hitsuji Kinno 17:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I've been keeping an eye on it, but if you think something needs to be tweaked, feel free. Anyone can do that. --Masamage ♫ 17:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Odango merge

I'm trying to get the articles Dango and Odango (hairstyle) merged, and since the only reason for the second article is the hype inspired by this series, I figured I should mention it to you guys. Please vote! --Masamage ♫ 18:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to disagree, as they are two completely different subject matter.Sbloemeke 22:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Do it over there. Talk:Dango. --Masamage ♫ 23:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Self advertising on Project page

I think that the self-advertising on the project page should be banned... Also the capacity to participate shouldn't be an issue. Such as the parentheses with can't participate often, I do fan fiction, etc should be made irrelevant... especially we are discouraging fanon. Thus the member section should just be names, nothing else. Objections? --Hitsuji Kinno 19:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I've been wanting to scrap that, too, but felt like it would inappropriate since I already tend to dominate the edits to that page. So now that I know someone else agrees: yes, do it. It's distracting and unprofessional. --Masamage ♫ 19:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I used the project page to advertise my absence when I went away for six weeks or thereabouts. If someone has a particular area of expertise in Sailor Moon, then I think it should be listed by their name, as a sort of 'go to this person' thing.. -Malkinann 21:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I think noting Wikibreaks is fine for very active users, as long as it's for a finite period and they remove the note when they get back. Your point about expertise is good, but it makes me nervous because I think everybody thinks they're an expert on something, and there's no objective way of knowing if they really are or if they're just full of it. We could make up a process for nominating people, but that seems like a pain. I'd kinda rather we just use the project page and talk page to publicize any projects that are being undertaken, and let the people with expertise involve themselves. --Masamage ♫ 22:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The only thing other than wikibreaks that that area should state, that i can think of, is if you want to focus on one Specific versions and want to state that. That the only thing other projects use it for. --Lego3400: The Sage of Time 01:33, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Meh

Found this while i was browsing.. Wondering if it has any useful info for us. --Lego3400: The Sage of Time 23:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Not really--there are no references on their page. If they bothered to do citations, then perhaps. The page we have now has most of that. *shrugs* --Hitsuji Kinno 23:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
It's been there absolutely forever; I think it's based on a very very old copy of the English adaptations article. --Masamage ♫ 23:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

YIKES!

Image:PGSM Cover.jpg got shrunk WAY too small and the old version deleted! We should probably fix this...--Lego3400: The Sage of Time 00:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Holy crap. Yeah, reupload it. Give it a width of exactly 200 pixels, since that's what we're using in the article and apparently someone has an opinion about its size. --Masamage ♫ 05:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I contacted the person who uploaded that version, if they responded, they didn't do it on my talk page. I asked them to check with any Wikiprojects and the Uploader, as well as any artilces its for a better size before shrinking an image that much.Lego3400: The Sage of Time 15:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. My first contrib to the project, I found that image (the PGSM Cover) and reuploaded it as it's original size. Someone to please check if it is ok. Thanks - Thor Malmjursson 16:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you! I think we probably should have it smaller, preferably 200 px, but at least now the article isn't hideous. I'll shrink it when I get home. --Masamage ♫ 17:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Outer Senshi in Crystal Tokyo

We all know what the inner senshi are doing (Guarding Serenity, Endymion and Small Lady), and Pluto is guarding the Door of Space-Time.. But what about the the other Outer senshi... Do we where they are or what they are doing???--Lego3400: The Sage of Time 15:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Unknown. Any explanation would simply be apocryphal. --  Denelson83  16:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The only thing that comes to my mind is that, at least in the manga, they certainly know it's going to exist. Sailor Saturn, in her first appearance, talks about the Silver Millennium that will arise in Tokyo. Also all of them affectionately call Chibiusa their princess, which implies that they'll still be around to have her be relevant to them. If we do make any assumptions, the most obvious one is that they'll be doing exactly what they did in the first Silver Millennium--guarding the solar system. --Masamage ♫ 21:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a rough reference to them putting up shields in Volume 17? The one where they went o their castles before being captured. It should also be noted that Chibiusa doesn't really recognize any of them. She met Pluto for the first time with Luna-P (Given by her parents, but the trick was taught by Pluto...), but is clear she doesn't actually know who they are in either version. (Her nae was given by her mother, as said by Chibiusa in the manga, BTW.) --Hitsuji Kinno 13:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
We should probably put this someplace ~Nya Lego3400: The Sage of Time 21:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Starlights

A head's up but there's some info that could be included into the article, but it hasn't received a reply yet. I have quotations too. (I also painstakingly translated the dialogue from th original by transcribing the Japanese. It's in my profile for those whose boats float from looking at the Japanese and microanalyzing it with tatemae and honne in mind. Though anime is turning out to be more honne in value.) --Hitsuji Kinno 13:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Screenshots

  • From recent Wikipedia discussions, it looks like screenshots used to decorate an episode list are Bad (tm). We should see about getting rid of the images in the Sailor Moon episode list as they don't jive with policy (see WP:FUC). :( JuJube 05:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I was under the impression that a properly descriptive image caption might comprise discussion of the image in the context of the episode, and thus meet the fair use criteria? -Malkinann 08:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
That's the way it should be. Also WP:FUC doesn't say anything specifically about screeshots in episode lists. Where is this recent discussion your talking about JuJube? Kazu-kun 08:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
And why have they all been deleted without the slightest bit of warning?? List of Planetes episodes, List of Fullmetal Alchemist episodes, and List of RahXephon media are all featured-status and use individual episode screencaps. This sudden deletion is totally against WP policy, so what the heck is going on? --Masamage ♫ 15:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Also, the feilds for the movies and shorts were removed entirely... Me and Masamage aggreed that those were a step forwards. This thing has jumped back to a peice of crap. Lets reupload the images, alert the deleater. Also: I pointed out the FMA along time ago and that is kinda what started our whole makeover of the article. Yeash! I leave for the weekend and this happens. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 15:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Don't reupload anything yet. If Ryulong gets weird about it (any weirder than this already is) then we'll take it to WP:ANIME. --Masamage ♫ 15:56, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm personally against screenshots in episode lists, but I understand being upset about it. There's a discussion in WP:AN right now. JuJube 21:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Aaaand now they've removed the screenshots from the lists I just had mentioned as FA. So the only things to be mad about now are that A) They didn't mention anything to us, B) They didn't follow procedure, and C) They removed a bunch of our episode summaries for heaven-knows why. I for one am still mad. Also, is this only affecting anime or what? Masamage ♫ 21:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
      • The episode summaries are still there; only the screenshots are gone. And I am mad that there is conflicting interpretations of policy coming from all sides. While I'm against it, as I said, I will stand by whatever policy is, and people are seeming to be intentionally vague about what that is. JuJube 21:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
        • The summaries for the first series are still there; the summaries for the rest have vanished. They were removed by Ryulong in the same edit where he removed the images., without any mention at all in his summary. --Masamage ♫ 21:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
          • AND THERE BACK i did the old. Force you to act tactic. I reverted it to the edit before his and told him Ummm Yeah... Try again buddy! It worked! He did it right! But I'm not gonna be compleatly happy till the images are back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs)
            • I doubt that will happen. JuJube 00:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Inners/Outers Proposal

Okay, so I've been think about this more and am ready to not argue some of the stuff I had been arguing. I propose that, in place of the names Inner Senshi and Outer Senshi, we use "Four Guardian Senshi" and "Outer System Senshi". These are both word-for-word canonical--the word taiyokei is usually translated as 'solar system', but this translation is also legit. Also the Guardians tend to have the number tacked on, as there are definitely four, but the Outers don't usually mention their number, and when they do it varies between three and four.

Obviously at the Sailor Senshi page we'd still discuss the various other group names, including fan names. As a style guide, I'd say that the first time a group is mentioned within a section, we say "Four Guardian Senshi" or "Outer System Senshi", with a Wikilink to the relevant section of the Senshi article. The second time they're mentioned, shorten it to "Guardian Senshi" or "Outer Senshi".

Does this sound okay? --Masamage ♫ 01:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

No responses usually means no one is outraged. If nobody expresses disapproval, I will start making the change Wednesday, May 9th. --Masamage ♫ 17:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok I don't really like it, but I didn't want to be the first to say anything. More often then not, Editors are just going to type Inner or Outer out of famileritay or habit. It may be fanish, but it may cause us more work in the long run. --Lego3400: The Sage of Time 04:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, saving ourselves work isn't a good enough reason to avoid using the correct terminology. If it were, we wouldn't have to spell things right either. --Masamage ♫ 06:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I'd rather go with Inner senshi and Outer senshi. Better-known names. Raystorm 16:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Better known but made-up. We'd still include them in the context for which they're relevant; Inner Senshi would redirect to Guardian Senshi, for example, so someone looking for that would end up at the right place. --Masamage ♫ 18:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Fannish, true. Raise your hands everyone who has ever read SM fanfics and saw this terminology there. ;-) If there's a redirect I don't see a problem, to be honest. Cheers Raystorm 18:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
I support this action, including the proposed redirection to ensure there is no miscommunication. Rebochan 17:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, it is now the 10th. The only standing objection has been that changing things will be a lot of work, so because I'm going to be doing a bunch of that myself, I feel okay to start moving forward with the change. I'll add it to the style guideline on our project page and start working on the Sailor Senshi article. --Masamage ♫ 23:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Done, including redirects. I've also fixed the articles of the Guardian Senshi themselves, plus Sailor Moon and the Cats. I also swung by the Shitennou, but the term is never used there. Anything else I haven't looked at yet, so go forth and tweak! Be sure and use CTRL^F to find them all. --Masamage ♫ 00:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I've now done every page that links from our template, with a few exceptions for pages that are so messy I didn't feel like tackling them. These were Sailor Moon S, Sailor Stars, List of Sailor Moon episodes, and Sailor Moon video games. Everything else should be good to go. --Masamage ♫ 06:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Okay, got everything else in Category:Sailor Moon too. And in the process discovered this little gem, which is about to hit AFD like you can't believe. --Masamage ♫ 06:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Cleaned up the stragglers. All articles should be good to go. --Masamage ♫ 23:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Little Mechanical problems

I have a little confessing to do (and you'll hate me for it), but first the other stuff. Places--right now it's really inconsistent. The Silver Millennium page lists places within that context, however other articles link to the places article that we have. We should decide on a system for this. We can do a combination system or we can decide to kill either part. The combination system (1a) would consist of letting the list stay a list, but linking back to the list. Putting screencaps in the relevant articles, for example homebases can be shown in th relative enemy articles, significant places in the arc pages, but something consistent across the board. 1b would be to kill the places in all articles and do a wikilink to the places article. 2c is to entirely kill the places article. All places would then be mentioned as they are needed in the articles, such as the TV station, Tokyo Tower, etc.

The second issue I'd like to raise is the citation of episodes. There is nothing consistent in the guidelines on how to do this. (I asked). So far we have 3-4 different systems in place, sometimes within the same article space. These are 1. citation of the episode with reference tags, 2. wikilinks to the episode summary we have, 3. plain text (such as In Episode 44 X character did this). Even if there is not a guideline for it, we should try to be consistent to just be that anal about our articles. ^.~ I would suggest something like this: wikify the episodes. Then after each episode mention or if there is a group such as 194 and 195 do a citation after it. so something like... Episode 194 and Episode 195 <ref>something here about what specifically is relevant that can't be covered in actual article space</ref> be done like that... So for a specific example In Episode 194 <ref>The specific quote for this is, " * Kakyuu: Fighter? * Fighter: Y...yes! * Kakyuu: Do you use that appearance on Earth? * Fighter: Oh...to find the only lady here, this was more convenient... * Kakyuu: I'm sorry. (etc) "</ref> Kakyuu calls Seiya by the name "Fighter" instead of Seiya and continues to never call Seiya by the earth name that Seiya chose. I think this will clean things up a bit where the citation for this type of thing is sporadic, I also think it will force specific referencing too. I'd like to see quotes to support points more...

The third issue I raise is that I misread the furigana for shinzouban. I'm really, really sorry about this, but I'm woman enough to admit that I make huge errors. >.<;; I misread the last hiragana character. Only I don't know where to fix it. I know it's my fault... so I'm truly sorry. (There's a Japanese word for this... where the same kanji can be read a number of ways...) Shinzoubon should be shinzouban. (Tankoubon is still that though.) You can double check this, but I'm fairly sure. --Hitsuji Kinno 02:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, for the first point, I see the Silver Millennium article sections as being about specific eras in the kingdom's timeline, not about physical locations. That's a huge distinction at least in my mind, and if it needs to be clarified in the article itself, let's do that.
I vote that we not cite specific episodes in-line; it's really messy and hard to read, and doesn't mean anything to the average reader. We also can't link to summaries anymore because they don't exist. I think the best course of action would be to make able use of the ref tags, saying stuff like "At the end of the first series, Usagi expresses a strong desire to be a normal girl.<ref>"It's that normal life... I want back." Episode 46. [Link to Wikimoon or Hitoshi Doi.]</ref> Or however that quote goes. Note the general reference to plot timing, with more specific info in the ref.
Anything that can be included in the text should be, such as the conversation between Kakyuu and Fighter. Not quoted verbatim per se, but described, especially if it's going to be used as evidence for something. Again, more detail (the exact quote) in the ref tags--just like what you did, except with the ref at the end rather than in the middle, and the episode number moved into the tags, probably immediately after the quote. Usagi's quote above is actually pretty poignant and might be better served as part of the actual article text. It all depends. --Masamage ♫ 05:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Puns of Japanese names

Let's take "Kino Makoto" (written in Japanese form for grammar reasons). 木野まこと 木- tree also wood. The kanji in original Chinese was representative of a tree compare to the kanji "mori" 森 this means forest which is made up of several trees. Wood is part of Chinese folklore and also one of the elements. It's also pronounced Moku, which is part of theoporiginal planet and an association with Jupiter the God himself. 野- read "no" in this case, but it can also be pronounced "ya" as in Seiya. It means several things. English speakers often say it means field, however there are secondary meanings, such as civilian and domestic. These last two are what make it a pun, because the kanji "da" 田 can also be used, but it doesn't have these secondary meanings (it also is field and was used in Sakurada). Because Jeffrey's dictionary says it means civilian and these are their civilian forms it forms the second part of the pun. The are "domestic" not of the heavens now and it's their civilian form. No also can stand for no which is rendered: の or also　乃 or　之. (if in name form.) It means of or possessive form. Most fans take it as of, however this format of possession is also used in other aggultinating languages of the same group, such as Korean. So Usagi's friends would be Friends of Usagi. Tomodachi no Usagi. まこと- Makoto actually means two things. First there are no kanji used, in fact the hiragana is used (there are psychological effects of hiragana versus katakana in Japanese as well. Hiragana was traditionally used by "men" and katakana by women, it was only later that it was used for adaptation. Sometimes Katakana was perceived as ignorance too... but that's a bit too linguistic there.) Makoto has two kanji. One means sincerity and the other means loyalty. Both of these traits are actually a tie back to the zodiac sign of Sagittarius which are both part of the sign. "Sincerity" is often put by astrologers as "blunt" and "loyalty" is often associated with the many friends that the sign accumulates. Both of these traits show up particularly in the manga Makoto who also displays the colors of the sign in her school uniform and her Sailor uniform.

Combining this there are several referential puns. Tree/Wood of/civilian/field Sincerity/Loyalty. The first part is to the planet and the element that the planet is perceived to belong to as well as an astrological thing. (technically it's fire in the Western thought...) The second part is making a huge series of puns, first being the "of" the second the civilian or the domestic. (which is what people often miss and go for the primary meaning that they see in the dictionaries without looking at the other ones listed). "Field" is a meaning, but other kanji could have been used instead, so it makes more sense that this one was used primarily for the secondary puns. The third part is a referential to Makoto's astrological sign. Takeuchi mentioned that her name was going to be different, but I think she changed it because of her research. Even Rei's name was going to be different.

I posted this here for discussion on all of the names posted thus far. Some of them are lacking some of this information and a deeper look into the puns. I can reference each point for the astrological connection and the fact that "no" probably means the secondary meaning "civilian" which makes sense since we've to date not seen Tsukino attached to a royal name or otherwise attached to the princess names. Since this would effect project-wide stuff I thought it might be relevant to bring it up here. --Hitsuji Kinno 01:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

To me, "tomodachi no Usagi" translates to "Friend's rabbit." Wouldn't it be "Usagi no tomodachi" or simply "Usagi-tachi"? --  Denelson83  01:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
(1) DEnelson is right, the proper phrase would be "Usagi no tomodachi"; (2) since none of this information is going to go in the articles anyway, it doesn't help the project very much. :( JuJube 01:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, we can certainly correct what's in the articles already. ('Case you missed it, JuJube, they've all had paragraphs on name puns for a few months. ~_^) --Masamage ♫ 01:58, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps, but how can we briefly explain all of this? Should we even try? JuJube 03:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
It shouldn't be too hard. "Several puns are incorporated into Blah's name. The first kanji in her surname means blah or blah, and is derived from the Japanese name of the planet Blah, blahsei. The second can be field or civilian, the latter of which is especially relevant. The kanji for her given name is not given, but possible meanings include blah and blah. Because 'no' is also a possessive, her full name can be read as 'Blah of Blah'." Not all that long at all. I do think we should leave out the astrological bit about the first name, because that is definitely original research as well as going over the cruft line for me. --Masamage ♫ 04:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Just a light note, but Takeuchi did say she believed in astrology (San Diego Comic Con) and did include it into Sailor Moon specifically for shaping the personalities of the Sailors. This is not to refute your point, but does give a point of analysis which might show it's not cruft, but is original research. BTW、Usagi-taichi is inclusive of Usagi, not just her friends (It's more like Usagi and group, like saying someone's name and saying etc. in English), but the grammar correction was right. --Hitsuji Kinno 13:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Misc

Sailor Arteste

Ok wikimoon gives some info on her.. Any place we could put info on her as well?Lego3400: The Sage of Time 04:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The minor-characters list, I guess... --Masamage ♫ 04:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Coronis image

WikiMoon also has an image of Sailor Coronis, though its from behind. Think we could use it?Lego3400: The Sage of Time 04:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Probably not. :/ That is pretty awesome, though. --Masamage ♫ 04:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Says

Someone created the article Sailor says out of a single paragraph from the Sailor Moon (English adaptations) page. I'm inclined to turn it into a redirect to the latter, but thought I should see what others think. --Masamage ♫ 16:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it should be deleted its not realy a article just a paragraph and sailor says isnt a big enough topic to get its own article anyway ♥Eternal Pink-Ready to fight for love and grace♥ 17:48, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Unless we want to turn into a list of what they were, delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs)

That does seem like the only possible way to make it into an article, and it's copyright violation, so away the thing goes. I'm making it a redirect like I said above. --Masamage ♫ 06:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Arc pages

I had a test-page floating around in project-space for a while; looking at it again today, I decided it was good enough to be sent out into the world as a stub, so I moved it to active duty at Sailor Moon (arc).

I think having stub articles for each story arc is probably better than having nothing, so I plan to make R and SuperS tomorrow. Since we've planned to have them for quite a while, this shouldn't be controversial. I do think, however, that we should not work on the story areas for those arcs until we get Sailor Moon S and Sailor Stars cleaned up. which means we should really get in gear on those. Does this seem okay? --Masamage ♫ 00:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no objections. I don't see why there would be any.... --Hitsuji Kinno 03:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Yup, me neither. I just like to leave a paper trail. --Masamage ♫ 04:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Makes sense. I'm still here, just in case you thought I left, I'm just not really going to do any work on S until it has some sort of cleanup. I'm terrible at cleaning stuff up.Sbloemeke 20:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Stars license

How about some information on why Sailor Stars hasn't come to North America, and why people say it never will? -- AvatarMN 00:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The general understanding is that Toei isn't relicensing any of its stuff outside Japan anymore, but we're having a terrible time finding citations about that in English. Every source we can figure out so far is third-hand. Do you know of any official sources that talk about it? --Masamage ♫ 00:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Isn't One Piece by Toei? But FUNimation still has the license. I thought this licensing caveat was particularly centered around Sailor Moon. But, yeah, all of this is double hearsay right now. JuJube 00:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, looks like you're right. My understanding was that the existing US licenses expired and that Toei didn't want to renew them, plus the US people didn't fight very hard because it wasn't all that profitable anymore anyway. So there's some triple-hearsay for you. :P --Masamage ♫ 01:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, I'm more worried what this means for Zatch Bell than Sailor Moon. I wanted to see the dub of the Faudo arc, but considering that ZB isn't all that popular Stateside, it looks unlikely... ^_^; JuJube 01:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
That's so crazy, Sailor Moon was a big deal! Hey, there's a WikiProject on it.  ;) I know that Sailor Moon came out a little bit before DVD created an anime boom that started almost all anime getting a North American release, but a lot of the niche classics have come over, too. Urusei Yatsura, Lupin III, uncut Gatchaman. SM and SMR got sub-only releases, why not Stars? I can't believe they don't think it'd be profitable, I know I want it so bad! I've heard all kinds of possibly dubious things about why it hasn't come over, from Takahashi didn't like it and is surpressing it, to Toei tried to start doing their own English dubbing and Sailor Stars was going to be a part of that and though it failed this venture still owns the rights to an English dub for who knows how long. I don't know why no one in the biz cares enough to get us some official answers. -- AvatarMN 01:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
There were a lot of issues. Toei's U.S. department (Cloverway) somehow managed to mess up the dub way worse than DiC did, despite preserving the original background music; Cartoon Network mishandled the airing of the episodes, and "girl power" was on the way out. Stars, with its transgendered protagonists, apocalyptic themes and social commentary, would simply be too much for a poor American conservative producer to handle. JuJube 01:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Too much for TV to handle, maybe. Without the kind of edits that, by the way, all of the other seasons got and were put on TV. How about straight to DVD, that's still how most anime comes to us. -- AvatarMN 02:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I Personally hope it never gets dubbed ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 08:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't care less if it were dubbed, or if it got on TV. I want uncut, subtitled DVDs, and we don't even have that. -- AvatarMN 08:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
You can buy uncut subtilted dvds there bootleg though ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 08:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Too right you are... - Anime News Network's recently run a story on Sailor Stars bootlegs being sold by Amazon.com. -Malkinann 10:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Cool source! I just added that to the Stars article. --Masamage ♫ 17:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I really hate buying bootlegs... Sigh. But I just did. Toei, North American anime industry; you made me do it. I've waited 10 years, and you've never even cared enough to give the public an explanation for why you haven't made this series available. What did you expect? -- AvatarMN 18:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I felt realy bad when I found out I bought bootleg but its the only way to watch it on DVD with subtitles ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I'd DL it. This way the bootleggers aren't encouraged and profiting from the work and when it comes out for real... then I can buy it without the guilt and double cost. I want the Japanese DVD's but they are so expensive! They have no extras either. --Hitsuji Kinno 02:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. I'd rather use up my disk space than give money to some greedy thief. --Masamage ♫ 04:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Agreed as well. -- RattleMan 04:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I DL the first series after I found out they were boot leg I stoped buying but my sister reformated the computer and evreythings gone :_: ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 09:00, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Materials Collection

Should the Materials Collection get its own article? because we use it as sources for lodes of stuff in Sailor Moon artcles ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 20:43, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I can't think of anything else to say about it that's not already at Sailor Moon (manga)#Artbooks. Most of the stuff we'd want to go into is much more relevant as regards specific subjects--what is says about each character can just go on that character's page. --Masamage ♫ 23:52, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Naoko Takeuchi (revamp page)

I put some new sources onto this page from using the archive.org resource, however, I dropped a question or two there... so it would be helpful if someone could answer... that way I'll know how to edit, expand and proceed. I'm gathering all my resources... including volumes for this. I'll be posting new ref tag stuff for that page specifically.

Oh one last thing.. I'm toying with the idea of doing something like a Mangaka Project. That is revamping and redoing mangaka pages because most of them look horrid, are in disrepair, or are missing information and AMP doesn't seem to have time or resources to really focus on them. I've been always author centric.. *cough* large bias. I have no idea if there is any interest for it though. --Hitsuji Kinno 18:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest a mangaka Task Force rather than a WikiProject, but yeah, that's a good idea. Ask around at WP:ANIME and see what you can come up with! --Masamage ♫ 19:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler Tags

Was there a reason the spoiler tags were removed from all our articles? Isn't this something that should be disscused first?--Lego3400: The Sage of Time 11:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Check out the new draft of WP:SPOILER. --Masamage ♫ 15:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationales needed IMMEDIATELY

See this discussion--a bot is tagging for deletion every image that does not have a fair use rationale. Please read the note to see exactly what we need, and let's get to work before we lose anything. --Masamage ♫ 15:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Progress so far: I've double-checked the Guardian Senshi, Usagi, Mamoru, Chibiusa and brought them up to speed. --Masamage ♫ 15:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I did some of the villains ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 15:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Which? So no one has to go over them again. --Masamage ♫ 15:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
just these ones so far
  • Image:QueenBeryl.jpg
  • Image:AnimeMetallia.jpg
  • Image:Phage Sailor Guts.jpg
  • Image:Wiseman006.jpg
  • Image:Wiseman006.jpg
  • Image:ProfessorTomoe.jpg
  • Image:ProfessorTomoe.jpg

♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 15:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Il just done these ones

  • Image:Fiore.JPG
  • Image:QueenSerenity6.jpg
  • Image:Chaos Galaxia.JPG
  • Amazon Trio
  • Amazoness Quartet
  • Makaiju

♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 16:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


Question, the bot will still notify us of the image without their little "special" FUR, right? How soon after that are they going to be deleted? Also, while your intention is good Eternal Pink, I question if it's really OK for you to sign the FUR ("Though the picture is subject to copyright, I, Eternal Pink feel it is covered by the U.S. fair use laws because...").-- RattleMan 18:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I thourght I was meant to do that ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
If it's OK for you to do that, it's no problem. I'm just being sure we're covering our bases. -- RattleMan 18:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I hope to God that it is ok I'm scared I messed evrey thing up (like with the Senshi thing) ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Signing FURs is normal practice. --Masamage ♫ 00:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
You didn't catch my meaning. What I'm wondering is if other people can sign FUR for images that they didn't upload themselves (like Eternal Pink signed an image I uploaded). -- RattleMan 00:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Ahhhh. Well... yeah, I can't think why not? If anything, two hands in the image seems to make it a little more credible. I can't remember ever reading otherwise, at least. --Masamage ♫ 01:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Returning to another of my questions, the bots will still notify us of the image without their little "special" FUR and give us amble time to fix it, right? How soon after that are they going to be deleted? -- RattleMan 03:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea. Technically we should get at least a week, but considering how they abandoned procedure last time they went in for a mass-deletion, there's no way to know. --Masamage ♫ 03:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I think I got most of the Anime ones ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Do we know haw many are left to FU? ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 20:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I got a few done, ones the english version page and PGSM page...Lego3400: The Sage of Time 05:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

How long have we got till the evil bot starts deleting stuff? ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 22:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the one time it's gotten to anything of ours was the Sailor Buttress picture, and it left a note on Talk:Shadow Galactica letting us know the image was in danger, so I was able to take care of it before it got deleted. Since we've done quite a few, maybe we can relax, knowing we'll get a warning? --Masamage ♫ 22:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
whew I was worried the would be lodes of red links where the pictures would be one day ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 22:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I got a few notices on my talk page for images i uploaded...—Preceding unsigned comment added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs)

Judging by Star Wars, the bot probably didn't get every image of ours without a fair use rationale. I think the Outers' images are in danger of being tagged. -Malkinann 03:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Judging by Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria, any images uploaded after 13 July, 2006 will only get 48 hours warning before deletion. The one-week rule applies to anything uploaded before that date. -Malkinann 06:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Shouting-free discussion: Senshi titles?

In case any of you haven't been watching the exciting drama at Talk:Makoto Kino, someone has it in mind that we ought to change our article names to reflect the Senshi titles instead of the Japanese civilian name--so Ami Mizuno would move to Sailor Mercury, and Usagi Tsukino to Sailor Moon (character).

There have been a lot of arguments against this, most notably page organization, all made over at that talk page I linked. I think we should probably discuss it among ourselves, though, without the pressure this cantakerous editor has been pumping out.

Possible pros of moving to the Senshi titles:

  1. English Wikipedia, English title.
  2. Avoids the extremely unappealing possibility of using dubbie names.
  3. Matches the page title with the lead image.
  4. Most of the stuff in the lead is about the Senshi identities anyway. Even the profile, which is supposedly civilian-based, can't help but mention Senshi stuff when it's important.
  5. Page organization doesn't really have to change much, considering the characters' personalities are the same in both forms.
  6. Mr. Cantankerous would go away.

Possible cons:

  1. Piling on of articles with identical titles ("Sailor Moon").
  2. Some amount of article restructuring would be required, and they already make sense.
  3. Risk of transitioning badly and losing GA status.
  4. Lots of work--11 articles to be done. (Team, Moons, Mask.)
  5. More?

What are all your thoughts? --Masamage ♫ 05:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Bah.. Leave it as it is. "Mr. Cantankerous" can go jump off a cliff. One user a need does change does not make! Lego3400: The Sage of Time 05:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what we should do about Mamoru and Chibiusa, though... Google suggests that of Tuxedo Mask or Tuxedo Kamen, Tuxedo Mask is the most common. It also suggests that Sailor Chibi Moon is much more common than Sailor Mini Moon. Incidently, check out WT:ANIME.-Malkinann 10:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I think they should stay the same I dont want to risk losing GA statas just for one guys opion who goes round bullying people ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 12:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to request that everyone please discuss this here. Stop engaging Link over on the Makoto page and just direct him to the discussion at WT:ANIME, where there are more people who can pressure him into being polite. We can have a calm and respectful discussion about it ourselves, because none of us feels like we have anything to prove by shouting.

As for losing GA status, Pink, I don't personally think that's a risk at all. I was just thinking of possible arguments people could make; if we do it right, then changing the title should have very little effect otherwise. Like I said, the articles are already structured in such a way that it wouldn't be all that much of a difference. --Masamage ♫ 18:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok :} but I still think it should stay because they names are Usagi Makoto ect. the Senshi forms names are just titles and they probly get past down ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
The passing-down thing is an interesting point, but on the other hand we don't have proof of it. The one character whose title does pass down gets a Neo- attached to it. Certainly within the known universe, the only person referred to as Sailor Venus is Minako Aino. --Masamage ♫ 18:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Dosn't ChibiUsa become the next Sailor Moon? and the Moon Kingdom Senshi are diffrent people from the Senshi in our timeline I think ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
We don't know for certain whether her name actually changes to Sailor Moon, and the Moon Kingdom Senshi are definitely the same people as the ones in our timeline. That's clearer in the manga; they all have flashbacks about themselves. --Masamage ♫ 18:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Which Senshi title would we use if we did they have Normal Super, Eternal and Princess in Sailor Moon's case and theres even a un named one in manga ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Just Sailor Moon, I should think. It's the basis for all the other ones. And where is there an unnamed one? --Masamage ♫ 18:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
In stars they have Eternal Sailor Moon San wings according to Wikipedia ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Not as far as I know (or can see in her bio)...? Even if there's a scene where her wings are absent, she'd surely still be Eternal Sailor Moon. If you mean the other Senshi, then yeah, they only have one form name... --Masamage ♫ 18:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
sorry it wasnt Sailo Moon but the other Senshi it says "A third, manga-only form appears in Act 42, also unnamed but analogous to Eternal Sailor Moon (sans wings)." on the other Sailor Team profile ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 19:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

the only guy was arguing for this has seemed to gone off and arguing for somthing elece (he's very fickle) ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 19:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Which is a good thing, but I myself am wondering if it might not be a good idea after all. --Masamage ♫ 20:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I am opposed to the idea myself one reasion is because Hotaru and Sailor Saturn are sometimes diffrent people like when Sailor Saturn said to Sailor Moon that she was no longer Hotaru befor jumping into Master Pharoh 90 ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 21:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't that problem still exist with having the article named Hotaru Tomoe, though? If we took their personality difference to the extreme it would mean creating two different articles, which I don't think is the right way to go. --Masamage ♫ 21:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I think I should step back from the disscusion because I think Im oppsed because what I think of Link to the Past sorry ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 21:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Totally understandable. I'm having a hard time too. --Masamage ♫ 21:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

How about we give it the weekend so we can all calm down, mull over things, and let the last drags of the Makoto discussion die? Once that stops getting posted to I plan to archive it right away. Maybe after a few days of cooperating on other stuff we'll feel better, and can start discussing it fresh on Monday or so? --Masamage ♫ 21:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree after a break from it il probly be able to think in NPOV agen lolz ♥Fighting for charming Love♥
Oh, and please don't anybody engage him over there anymore. His last comment doesn't really need responding to. Let's let it go. --Masamage ♫ 21:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Im realy sorry but on his page I sent a mesege with a link to Wikipedia:Civility in it to try and get him to stop ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 21:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
No worries; your post to him looks fine. Let it die out as soon as you're comfortable. --Masamage ♫ 21:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Another con - has anyone done a googlefight for Sailor Scout compared to Sailor Senshi? -Malkinann 02:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

  • "Sailor Scout": 49,100.
  • "Sailor Senshi": 94,500.
  • "Sailor Scouts": 118,000.

--  Denelson83  03:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Lets hope A link to the past dosn't find out about this ^_^ ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 10:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
What the......?!
This link comes up 2nd in a Google search for "Sailor Soldier." --  Denelson83  03:42, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

That's actually a good read, thanks.  :) If we ensure that it's looking at Sailor Moon by putting "Sailor Moon" into the search string, and remove sites that refer to them as both Scouts and Senshi, it looks like:

  • "Sailor Scouts" "Sailor Moon" -senshi: 61,400 (51.51%)
  • "Sailor Senshi" "Sailor Moon" -scouts: 57,800 (48.49%)
  • Total: 119200 (100%)

So that's a current 3.09% majority for "Sailor Scouts", which I don't think is a clear majority, especially as the dub isn't likely to be shown on TV again. Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or comments on my equations?

Wikipedia:Naming conflict may also be able to shed light on some of the situation. (It's even got an example where use English and the most common name are in conflict...) -Malkinann 13:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

"Sailor Soldiers" "Sailor Moon" -senshi -scouts" gets a mere 5,000. But I also get significantly less than you on both those searches above, probably because I have "safe search" on. Sailor Warriors gets less than a thousand. I believe our main rationale for using Senshi was that it's got two official Japanese translations (Soldier, Guardian) and two official dub-only translations (Scout, Warrior); regardless of what's most common, Senshi is simply the most accurate. --Masamage ♫ 17:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of the Google hits on either, these are articles on a Japanese show, and the Japanese characters thereof, not the English equivalents. Also, we're talking a person's name here, not a term, or a normal word. My (IRL) name is the same throughout every language. Why not a fictional character's? --Zyppora 09:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I think you're talking about the ill-advisedness of changing the Makoto article to be named Lita, and so yes, that would be terrible and nobody is advocating it; we even talked Link out of it over at the other page. The idea now is whether that article should be called "Sailor Jupiter", which is in a far, far more common name for her. That's probably true even in Japan.
Google analysis time! ("sailor jupiter" -makoto -lita -kino) gets 84,900 hits; ("makoto kino" -jupiter) gets 47,100 and ("sailor moon" "lita" -jupiter) gets 30,400. This is with Safesearch on, so all the numbers are artificially smaller, and I used different techniques with each to be sure of relevant results. The proportions should be about right, though. --Masamage ♫ 19:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you try searching using the Japanese naming order? --  Denelson83  19:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Whoops, good call. Bizarrely, ("kino makoto" -jupiter) only gets 696. ?_? --Masamage ♫ 19:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Im changing my stance now I had a weekend to think about it. They are most recognised in there Senshi forms. People I have spoken to usually say "Sailor Moon rocks" rather then Usagi regardless of what form she is in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eternal Pink (talk • contribs)
The thing is, the name "Sailor Moon" is not the same in every language. Just look at Polish and Turkish. --  Denelson83  23:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
True, but it's the same in both Japanese and English, which in are the only ones we have ever considered when making decisions here. --Masamage ♫ 23:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it's good because it will stop arguments with dubbies who want to change the articles and evreyone will (hopfuly) be happy. ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 23:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
@Masamage: Yes, I guess I was still in the Makoto-vs-Lita mindset ^_^; apologies for that. As for Makoto-vs-Sailor Jupiter ... I dunno ... Sailor Jupiter is more widely known and recognized, as the Google result shows, but we're talking about a person's name vs. a person's alter ego's name, in which case I'd vote for the actual name ... So I'm not sure actually. When using Sailor Jupiter, I think it'd be best to use consistency throughout the different languages though (but that's for those who support those languages to fix). On a sidenote: I think you'd get more hits on "kino makoto" -jupiter if you'd use the Kanji + set Google prefs to JP results. --Zyppora 08:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The thing that makes it okay for me is that Makoto's personality is exactly the same both before and after her transformation into Sailor Jupiter, so that the question of who she really is is kind of moot. (Anyway, she was Sailor Jupiter first, so that may also make it the more important name.)
I did some poking around to see what the standard treatment is here on WP... The article on the character Peter Parker lives at Spider-Man; Bruce Wayne at Batman; Kal-el at Superman; Princess Diana of the Amazons at Wonder Woman; Sue Richards at Invisible Woman; Bob Parr at Mr. Incredible; and for good measure, Samuel Langhorne Clemens at Mark Twain. --Masamage ♫ 09:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so where do we stand on this now? For anyone worried about the amount of work it would take, don't; I'll take care of it if this is what we decide to do. But does consensus support it, and are there any arguments we haven't examined yet? Or do we not care? :) Or what? --Masamage ♫ 18:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

More actionable question: does anyone think it's a bad idea? 'Cause right now we seem to have a number of pros floating around and no significant cons. If that is in fact the situation, maybe we really should change it. --Masamage ♫ 02:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

A-class for Ami?

Would anyone mind if I took the article Ami Mizuno to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Anime_and_manga/Assess? It's kind of a tough peer review for the step between FA and GA. I think we should because we should seek the highest practical standards (somehow I doubt that it's FA-class just yet) for our template articles, and even if it doesn't gain A-class, it'd still give us valuable feedback on how to improve the Sailor Team's articles even more. I've kind of been meaning to do this since we got GA two months ago, but do you think it's too soon? -Malkinann 14:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Nah.. even if we don't get it, it would help. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 14:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that's a great idea. We could use the advice. --Masamage ♫ 17:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's there now, so hopefully we'll get some good feedback on if it's A-class or not, and if not, why not. -Malkinann 02:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Got a reply. Not too bad. Could we put Sailor Moon up for A-class check too? --Masamage ♫ 18:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I think we should clear out the to do list a bit before going for A for Sailor Moon... -Malkinann 23:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Rawr, probably so. If outside reviewers just list all the stuff we already knew we needed to work on, it'd be kind of a waste. --Masamage ♫ 23:53, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

New semi-relevant article

I've created an article for Takanori Arisawa, and I nominated it for "Did you know..." based on the awards he won for SM music. Cross your fingers! --Masamage ♫ 22:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Woohoo! It got listed! --Masamage ♫ 19:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I just loged in and saw it congratulations :} ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 20:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Cast members category

Just so y'all know, Category:Sailor Moon cast members is up for deletion again. We were all fine with it going down the first time just as long as we got Sailor Moon actors done, which we did; but the category got recreated three weeks later without any dicussion. Since it's now policy to do these things in lists rather than categories, this shouldn't be a controversial discussion, but I thought I'd make it known anyway. --Masamage ♫ 09:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Planète Jeunesse

The WP Articles says "The first foreign language dubbed version of Sailor Moon was made in France". Well, the source you cited, Planète Jeunesse, says it premiered in 23 December 1993 on TF1, does not says "it's a first foreign language dub". [1]

What would you do?--JSH-alive 08:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Slap on another source, I guess. I know that was the first dub, but I guess I don't know where I know it from. I'll take a look around. --Masamage ♫ 17:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use problems for the happy couple

I'm worried that we probably have way, way too many copyrighted images right now at both Usagi Tsukino and Mamoru Chiba. The former has seven; the latter has six.

The two rules I'm worried about at WP:FU are:

  • Minimal use. As little non-free content as possible is used in an article. ... Multiple items are not used if one will suffice; one is used only if necessary.
  • Significance. Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot.

So far, we've been very lucky to be getting away with three at most of the other Senshi bios, but even that was met with some uncertainty at the Makoto Kino GA review. I don't think there's any way that either of the two articles mentioned above can possibly pass GA without losing some images.

I propose that the best rule of thumb would be to remove anything which can be easily explained with words based on the core images. Here's my analysis:

For Usagi:

Images that contribute significantly: the lead anime image (of course), the civilian manga image (also), the Princess Serenity image (complex and crucial), and the posing image (iconic and hard to explain)
Images which can be removed without damaging quality: Eternal form (can be explained, not crucial), Princess Sailor form (same, even easier), Neo-Queen form (same, easier yet)

For Mamoru:

Images that contribute significantly: the lead manga image (of course), the civilian anime image (also)
Images which can be removed without damaging quality: King Endymion form (easy to describe), rose image (even easier), Moonlight Knight (same), PGSM Endymion (kind of obscure)
Important images we lack that would contribute: a better attack shot and a Prince shot, one from the manga and one from the anime

This would get us to four images for each character, all of which would be significant and unique from all the others on the page.

I think this is very important for getting these two articles up to par and enabling them to pass GA candidacy. --Masamage ♫ 23:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Senshi title move?

As seen in the section above, it's been proposed that we move the following articles to the following names:

Because (as seen in the discussion above) there seem to be numerous "pro"s and no significant "con"s, I think it's best that we move forward with changing these article names, if indeed that's what we're going to do. In fact, here's my current list:

Pros:

  1. English Wikipedia, English title.
  2. All other superhero articles live at the superhero name.
  3. No more pressure to use dubbie names.
  4. Matches the page title with the lead image.
  5. The Senshi names are vastly better-known.
  6. Page organization doesn't really have to change.

Cons:

  1. Piling on of articles named "Sailor Moon" (but see Superman (disambiguation))
  2. Large-scale changes are spooky
  3. ...anything else?

And, of course, we'd put redirects in place, so that Ami Mizuno still aims at Sailor Mercury, etc.

That discussion's been active a while, but let's give it another week, say, through June 13, 2007. If it still seems like a good idea (by consensus) at the end of that time, let's do it. I've got a mental list of everything that would need to be done to make this go smoothly, and I'm happy to either take care of it myself or share the task with anyone who's interested.

Thanks! --Masamage ♫ 18:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

*shrugs* There are cases where Sailor Moon is considered the title, rather than the character, such as sailor Cosmos is treated like a title rather than a character in the manga. That might be a negative. Because Sailor Cosmos says that Eternal Sailor Moon is the true Sailor Cosmos. There are cases of inheritance in Comic Book characters such as Green Lantern. That's the only downside I can think of is that there might be a bit of a confusion in that area. (Title, versus character who holds said title.)--Hitsuji Kinno 23:11, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I know what you mean. (A good example superhero page where the title is held by multiple characters is Supergirl.) On the other hand, our way is eased significantly by the fact that neither of the people who might potentially be inheritors of other people's titles—Sailor Chibi Moon and ESM, inheriting Sailor Moon and Sailor Cosmos, respectively—is ever directly addressed by that potential alternate name. So we can definitely and comfortably say, for example, that the only person in the series who is ever called by the name "Sailor Moon" is Usagi Tsukino. I think the potential inheritance thing can be pretty easily mentioned in her Senshi-form subsection. What do you think? --Masamage ♫ 00:15, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I was just putting it out there (though hopefully not interpreted as obtuse), but it is probably something to address within page.--Hitsuji Kinno 00:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

This also brings the Mask VS Kamen and Mini VS Chibi arguments into play. Those two have to be dealt with before we can procede ((Not that I really want to...))--Lego3400: The Sage of Time 12:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the last time this was brought up, Google favoured Tuxedo Mask over Tuxedo Kamen, and Sailor Chibi Moon over Sailor Mini Moon. -Malkinann 14:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I think we're okay with those for now. If there's a fuss after they're moved, we can always move them again. --Masamage ♫ 20:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I object, for the purposes of uniformity. Western superheroes be Western superheroes, but Category:Magical girls doesn't, in general, list characters under their code names, only under their real names. If we adopt this change, we should move all characters from, say, Tokyo Mew Mew to their code names. Not to mention that most magical girls, it seems, don't have alternate identities at all, like all characters from the Mai multiverse (who constitute a significant portion of that category). - Sikon 07:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
This would only affect these articles, not the Tokyo Mew Mew ones. If those characters are better-known by their civilian names, then that's what they should be called. As for people with no alter-egos, obviously they should be at their only name. These characters, however, are vastly better known by their Senshi titles than by their schoolgirl names, as proven by the experiments done above. Every subject needs to be treated according to its own needs; hence, WP:COMMONNAME is a policy, while WP:UNIFORMITY is not. --Masamage ♫ 07:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

So everyone knows: the 13th is tomorrow. I think I'm ready to move everything into place, if it's still okay with everyone. --Masamage ♫ 21:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

It's okay, but if certain folks reappear to express their vindication, can we tell them to rack off? -Malkinann 00:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
How are we going to rewrite the leads? -Malkinann 00:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Heh. You can if you like; I don't think I'll choose to. It was a good idea, after all; just an unacceptable delivery. As for the leads, it should be pretty easy... Like, "Sailor Mercury is one of the central characters in the Sailor Moon metaseries. Her real name is Ami Mizuno (kanji kanji, or Amy in the English versions), but she can transform into one of the series' specialized heroines, a Sailor Senshi, when there is need." Or something like that? --Masamage ♫ 01:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Well I'm all for it, if my opinion means anything at this point. The fact remains that the characters are better known by their hero names, and it also makes it a lot easier for someone that knows a name from another version (such as "Serena" or "Annie" or "Bunny") to just be able to type in "Sailor Moon" and bring the article right up.Rebochan 20:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Cool, glad to hear from people who like it. ^_^ All right then, I'm going to start moving things now. First I'm going to change the links in the template, which will make it easier to deal with the "what links here" stuff, fixing double redirects as I go. After that, I'll get to work--first leaving a note at each talk page, then moving the article, then rewriting the lead, then dealing with the links. I'll work in my usual order, beginning with Ami and moving through the Inner Senshi, then the Outer Senshi, then the royal family. Then I'll change any other links that seem to need changing, like the GA notices on our project, the anime project, and the Good Articles list. When I think I'm done, I'll drop a note here, and then we can all look around to clean up whatever's left. Wish me luck! --Masamage ♫ 01:32, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, mostly finished, except for Chibiusa's article; after some investigation, I think she's actually better-known as a civilian than as a Senshi. Please see Talk:Chibiusa for my Google-based number-crunching, and discuss that issue over there. As for the general move, it seems to have been a success. What do you think? What else needs to be done? --Masamage ♫ 03:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Dealing with Manga

I was thinking I could do the manga summaries like the anime list episodes.The idea would be something like this:

List the manga as per volume, list changes underneath the summary from the shinsouban, and do it that way. I incidentally have the summaries typed out... (manga faq...) so it's not that big of a deal to do the transfer. Objections? Input? --Hitsuji Kinno 00:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

So...a new article...? --Masamage ♫ 02:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
List of Sailor Moon manga acts? or just a "list of acts" section in the Sailor Moon (manga) page? We should probably delete the Sailor Moon volume 1 test page some time - we're not going to be doing anything with it, I think.-Malkinann 02:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure a new article is a good idea. More manga coverage would be awesome, but I think it should be combined with the arc pages; maybe a paragraph or two for each Act. I'd love to suggest something similar for the anime, but 200 episodes is just way too many to do that with, which is why it gets its own page. The manga is smaller and more managable, so I don't think it's a good idea to split off yet another article. --Masamage ♫ 03:26, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
So attach it to the arc pages? I can do that... I was thinking of doing it like the episode list... *shrugs* but whatever works best. The only problem with splitting by arc is that many of the acts don't have a clean break, like from the first arc to the second arc is not a clean break, thus the act would have to repeat... (Same with the volumes.) So how do you want to handle that?--Hitsuji Kinno 18:31, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Hmmmm. Well, say with Volume 4, we have the transition between arcs one and two happening within one act. I guess that I'd describe the events in arc one's page: they defeat Beryl, everyone's resurrected, Usagi chooses to remain on Earth, blah blah detail detail. As she and Mamoru kiss in the park, a pink-haired girl tumbles out of the sky, leading directly into the second major story arc. I'd wikilink the end of that sentence to the R page, and have the manga section start with how, after defeating Beryl and blah blah, Usagi and Mamoru are relaxing and, when they kiss, a girl falls out of the sky and lands on her head. Then go on from there. --Masamage ♫ 01:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Reset Indent. Alright. I put them under unlaunched--> Sailor Moon manga.... you'll probably have to edit it to make the names conform (use a search and replace like Microsoft word or a word processor). Just note that Casablanca Memories as a side story technically belongs to the first arc, not the third... I don't know if that will cause trouble or not. Oh and I copy-pasted it from my SM manga FAQ if that might cause trouble or something... (I cut the book overviews though.) --Hitsuji Kinno 00:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

You know, I do think a side-stories page would be really beneficial. That would include both the anime and manga; most of them have irregular or unknowable arcs, and we'd finally have a decent place to describe stuff like Chibiusa's Picture Diaries. --Masamage ♫ 00:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe merge the Parallel Sailor Moon page with it? That page doesn't have much on it...--Hitsuji Kinno 03:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I think so. --Masamage ♫ 05:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Items Clean up

I put something up in the talk page. I'm going to *try* to back it up with official sources rather than fan pages which seem to get it wrong... even the good ones. If anyone wants to join in this massive and masochistic project go ahead. This is a head's up.--Hitsuji Kinno 00:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it'd be more useful to get things fixed up in the character pages themselves. Lists of items always get deleted; I can't imagine that page ever successfully going live. --Masamage ♫ 01:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
We could move it down as a reference page then... I think it would be useful to have all of the items listed. It will make it easier to do edits later on and it will give a place for us to discuss it (People are sadly also using that page for reference on other websites...). I'm transferring over official names from the website. But my kanji skills are poor. I can't read any of the kanji on the watch to try to get the official name. (Official website-->Click Ami-->Click the alternate button at the top right. The watch should be visible with the kanji... --;; I barely got the official names for the antenna on Jupiter...). Oh and I updated it too. It should be easier to read now.--Hitsuji Kinno 18:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Having a reference page would be excellent, yeah. And what I usually use for kanji-finding is the kanji search tool at Jeffrey's dictionary. I can dig up the URL if you need. --Masamage ♫ 01:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I know that page and I have a Kanji dictionary (Nelson's), the problem though is that there are so many. X.x;; *sighs* I wish I could get some help... but it looks like I'm in it alone. Given that I'll move it down with the references page rather than keep it in unlaunched.--Hitsuji Kinno 00:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I can help kanji-hunt. I had to find most of the ones for the attack names and many of the episode titles. --Masamage ♫ 00:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Naoko Takeuchi Page

Almost ready to launch. I admit I was a bit lazy with the references and didn't format them properly on some, but I managed to find at least links for it. I'm kind of tempted to list all her works on the references page since it mentions things about SM in the liner notes and I'm just that lazy.

I didn't put in some references because I wasn't sure how to handle linking since archive.org doesn't read Japanese. (see talk page) and I effectively stole from the original page the Japanese and then had a translator translate it... --;;. I was forced, therefore, to put it in the External Links for the time being. See talk page.

Anyway, I need someone to read it over, look at sections, combine them, and look for places that need to be expanded, etc. (i.e. editor). Then I think it will be ready to dump into the official page. (after the references are cleaned up.).--Hitsuji Kinno 04:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Just for amusement

Nothing to reference or Include... http://www.fanhistory.com/index.php?title=Sailor_Moon

On a personal note... I particularly like this page: http://www.fanhistory.com/index.php?title=Ian_Andreas_Miller

Sorry... I still find his e-mails amusing.--Hitsuji Kinno 05:26, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Artbook II look up

http://mangastyle.net/book3/3-24.jpg This one... I need the Japanese text she used for the Chalice--is it in kanji or katakana? I'm verifying the names of the items. --Hitsuji Kinno 20:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Want me to shoot Michelle an email? --Masamage ♫ 20:09, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Sure... I wish I'd brought all my artbooks with me. The remaining ones are living in my parent's basement.--Hitsuji Kinno 05:38, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

A Little reward...

A friend of mine had this interview with Naoko Takeuchi, but he lost where it was, so he searched for it for me... and voila! Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytoezOEU0Oo . You can hear her talk, plus it has some really good references for the main page. ^_^--Hitsuji Kinno 00:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I caught: Naoko likes watching the anime and thinks it's well-made; the sailor suits were Osano's idea; her favorite character is Tuxedo Mask, she's attracted to him, that's why he's the love interest; Umino is extremely easy for her to draw and was her first purely comedic character; and she likes tokusatsu shows and wanted to do a girls' version of those, which was another part of her inspiration (and foreshadows the existence of PGSM!). Also, she seems pretty shy! --Masamage ♫ 04:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thanks very much for that I realy enjoyed it and favoured it :} ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 14:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems to make quite a bit of sense that Takeuchi's favourite character in SM is #0, given that she is so much like #1. I wonder if Takeuchi felt that Yoshihiro Togashi was a lot like #0 when she married him. Also, in the video, she didn't say she liked tokusatsu shows; she said she liked the Super Sentai metaseries. --  Denelson83  15:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
When they say they hear she likes SFX movies, the kanji for tokusatsu (特撮) are in the text of the question, and she says "hontou wa!", that is, "true". --Masamage ♫ 15:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
If you're really obsessed *raises hand* you'll catch she has a potpourri jar on her mantle, that you can see the white marble floor she talked about and said she slept on... she has shoes like Usagi... she arranged her pencils in one jar, brushes in the second and toning supplies in the last jar, she has a cell from the first series, that this is most likely 1993 because you can see Chibiusa, she's right-handed, she does all drafting with a .5 mechanical pencil, then she does another draft with a pencil, then traces that with pen-- she has a light table, and if you look closely you can even spot the inks she uses... you can even spot the manga that she did on her shelf... and if you look even mor closely maybe you can find out *which* ones are one her shelf... I also know which order she draws characters in... Muhahaha. She does face outlines first, then fills it in, then draws their clothes. She also likes using guidelines... ^.~
BTW, From what I can assess she's shy, but underneath it social and outgoing also gained a lot of business skills... Togashi is the glasses-wearing type she described she liked later in the series (She's a fan of men in glasses.. she said.. and that's the type she married.). Hehehe. I don't own a website on her for nothing.--Hitsuji Kinno 19:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Describing the name of alter ego

After reading WP:WAF, I felt “Her real name is Usagi Tsukino, a carefree schoolgirl…” should change to something like this: “…as well as its title character, which is an alter ego of Usagi…” (Example for Sailor Moon)

Well, I hope may happiness be with you.--JSH-alive 15:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The idea being that the first is too in-universe? Do we have a precedent?--Hitsuji Kinno 16:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Alter ego isn't really correct because they have essentially the same personality. Princess Serenity, on the other hand, is an alter ego. --Masamage ♫ 18:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


Naoko Takeuchi

I switched out the page, posted it and deleted it from Minor tasks. I'm missing only two references... that is the interview that was done with the actresses of PGSM which told about her involvement. They said that they learned a lot from Naoko Takeuchi... (Though there is also a cameo of her in the Special Act...) Anyway, should be to template now. I wanted to add some philosophy stuff, but it seemed to be too trivia-ish. --Hitsuji Kinno 01:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Awesome! Maybe once we find those two references, we can put it up for peer review and later GA. -Malkinann 03:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
"Though there is also a cameo of her in the Special Act..." WHAT??? --  Denelson83  12:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
In the making of? Maybe that's act Zero I'll have to "painfully" watch that again. ^.~ Naoko Takeuchi shows up before the actors go on stage. Everyone misses it--but like the stalker fanatic I am I spotted her right away. She was holding up a "v" sign wearing a cute and quite fashionable peach dress smiling shyly and awkwardly which a really cute haircut. Ahhh.... I replayed that like thirty times, and took some snapshots.--Hitsuji Kinno 01:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Ha ha. Well, I believe you; is that on your website? If so, we can cite it there. --Masamage ♫
I'm working on DLing it again to retake the shots since I lost them somewhere... not that it's painful or anything... since I'm an addict of making ofs... however I did find some evidence that the actors worked with Takeuchi-sensei...http://www.sailormoon.ws/archives/110803.html "Q8. What are your thoughts of Takeuchi-sensei?
Shibue: The first time I met her is when I was first getting the costume prepared for me. The feeling I had was that she really looked like someone who draws shoujo manga." http://www.sailormoon.ws/archives/123003.html http://www.sailormoon.ws/archives/111203.html http://www.sailormoon.ws/archives/112703.html http://www.sailormoon.ws/archives/100203.html , "Sawai: Currently the difficult part is: "We're freezing!" Takeuchi-sensei, please draw warmer costume designs!" (is this to indicate that they know her enough to request them?) "Q8. Tell me what you thought when you first met Takeuchi Naoko.
Sawai: She's as cute as I had thought! She's always smiling and at the auditions she really helped relieve tension.
Hama: She's quite the snappy dresser!
Kitagawa: She's got nice style!" http://www.genvid.com/PGSM/She conducted the interviews... so I need the other ones. Good for referencing.
All of them claim she was there on costume day... plus I have a real gut feeling she was heavily involved in the production because of the storylines, the sudden insert of cellphone which she obsessed over in the manga liner notes, the way the odango are done, and finally the wedding scene in the special act is a heavy parody of Takeuchi-sensei's own description of her wedding... where she called it off every few weeks... etc... but I'll keep looking for that source.
I found the anime interview... It's between Kia Asamiya and her... but it's on my harddrive... and I can't find the original Kappa Interview... Kappa Magazine #62 Translated by Mina Kaye Any ida how to handle this one?
--Hitsuji Kinno 05:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Jupiter - translated!!

Over on the Hungarian wikipedia, someone has translated some of our Sailor Jupiter text for hu:Kino Makoto ^_^ ! Just thought I'd mention it. :) -Malkinann 08:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey, that's pretty awesome. :D How'd you find out? --Masamage ♫ 16:26, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I was editing sukeban, and I discovered an interwiki link... I was expecting a Japanese interwiki at some point, but Hungarian? I did a doubletake when I saw they'd cited the same book as me, and checked out their linked Sailor Jupiter...  :) On closer examination, their hu:Hino Rei page seems to be partially translated from ours, too.  :) D'you think having our work translated into another language counts as an 'achievement'?  ;) I'd so like to ask Kasuga for a suke-tan image for the sukeban page, but every time I think about it, I come over all shy. :( Plus given the checkered history of the sukeban subculture, he might not want a picture of Wikipe-tan up there. -Malkinann 21:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Hee hee, sweet. (I asked Kasuga to make a Magical Girl Wikipe but he never really responded, sigh.) And yeah, I think this does count as an Achievement. ^_^ I'll think about how to list that, since there's no date associate with it, really... --Masamage ♫ 01:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I looked at their history, they've been kicking around a version of our page since July 2007, so I'd use July 2007. They've been working on porting it since July 2, 2007, and finished it July 4 2007 when it got interwikied.--Hitsuji Kinno 01:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Moon Official

New images of the Outers have been added to Sailor Moon Official Website, reintroducing Saturn, Uranus and Neptune as character as Takeuchi-sensei gets ready for posting the next arc on the website. I don't know if that's of any use... but I thought it would be worth noting here.--Hitsuji Kinno 22:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Yay~~ -Masamage ♫ 23:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

PGSM Takeuchi-sensei

http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi.jpg http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi2.jpg http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi3.jpg http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi4.jpg http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi5.jpg http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi6.jpg http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi7.jpg

From the time of 4:30 and 4:44 in the video. You can see several of the girls really humbled. Kitagawa-san was so distracted at the appearance the had to fix her wig... and finally there is a picture of all of them together at that same conference with Takeuchi-sensei wearing said dress... which is how I immediately knew it was her besides my weird stalker tracking ability. Oh and it's a fist up in the air the Japanese way of saying Gambare/gambatte not a thumbs up, though it's hard to tell. I love that dress BTW... when Takeuchi-sensei gets rid of it like her French bra, I wouldn't mind having the dress... ^.~ I'm having trouble tracking down that quote though... I'll have to ask someone with better memory.--Hitsuji Kinno 06:14, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Those with Crunchyroll accounts: http://www.crunchyroll.com/showmedia?id=11903 You7 can see a moving updated Takeuchi-sensei there in the making of... --Hitsuji Kinno 20:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Conflict over Image:Naoko.jpg

This is the only headshot of Takeuchi that we have available. The Naoko Takeuchi article has to have this image, so we need it licensed. Deletion is not an option, as I am guarding this image. Please license it! --  Denelson83  20:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you can actually guard stuff like that and be justified by policy. >_> You might get in trouble. As far as I know, the rule is that we are never allowed to use copyrighted images for biographies of living people, no matter what, and that no image is considered better than a copyrighted image. It doesn't matter what licensing is used. --Masamage ♫ 20:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I think Hitsuji Kinno mentioned that either she or Lunar Archivist were going to Japan to meet Takeuchi-sensei? Maybe we could ask them for one of their photos of Takeuchi, licensed under the GFDL or NC-by-CC license? -Malkinann 21:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
That's just about our only hope, yeah. --Masamage ♫ 21:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
But Wikipedia considers CC-NC to be non-free. --  Denelson83  01:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Or a suitably-free license, then. -Malkinann 09:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Lunar Archivist is working on it currently. Ask him to make the request. I asked him to clear up the Cosmos thing once and for all. It might take a while for Genvid to finally land an interview.
I'll be going to Japan in May of 2008... but not to meet Takeuchi-sensei. >.<;;--Hitsuji Kinno 19:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

fair use rationale templates

Category:Non-free media rationale templates, relevant to our interests?  ;) These seem to be a series of in-progress templates that would assist users in fulfilling the non-free content criteria policy. Might be worthwhile keeping an eye on it - I wouldn't recommend deleting what we've already got in favour of a template, though, as it might get afd'd. -Malkinann 09:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Complete Episode Articles?

I've noticed they've done this for a couple of other shows such as Futurama, and was wondering if it was a posibility for the Sailor Moon episodes once the episode list page gets cleaned up. There is a lot of content that could be put into these episode articles, such as cultural references, references to other episodes, etc. It was just an idea that I had. It could also clear up the problem of how big the summaries of the episodes in the episode list article. Sorry if this suggestion has already been done, I'm kind of new to this project and just thought it was a good idea. Zemalia 13:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

We actually used to have full episode articles, but they were a pain in the tuchis to try and maintain. We eventually decided that the individual episodes aren't generally notable enough to describe in huge detail, so now we link to the WikiMoon summaries. At least, we will when it's cleaned up; only the first series in the list is really up to speed. --Masamage ♫ 19:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. And here I was hoping I would have something big to contribute for once. And thanks for not n00b bashing me.. ^^; Zemalia 20:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Are you kidding? Polite, enthusiastic n00bs are pretty much the best thing ever. :) So, you want to contribute! That's awesome. I have a pretty good idea of the areas where the project is weak and needs boosting; what aspects of the metaseries do you know the most about / like the best? --Masamage ♫ 20:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm rather partial to the outer senshi and any cultural references that in the series. If you have any suggestions on what I can work on, I would love to help! That's what I'm here for after all. ^_^ Zemalia 17:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Hmm~! Are you very familiar with Sailor Moon S? That article basically needs to be taken apart and put back together. It's way too long and detailed and is full of mistakes. (Sailor Stars is closer to ideal, though not perfect either.) --Masamage ♫ 20:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Compiling data about Hikawa

I don't know if this would be completely useless, but with the leg work of Lunar Archivist, and some pictures, etc. I have a hypothesis that the manga Hikawa is not only smaller, but is comprised of two shrines, the Shiba Daijingu shrine where Takeuchi-sensei worked, and the original Hikawa shrine... I'll be sure to take plenty of pictures and stuff to see if I can get proof... but where would that go if I gather the evidence? And is this irrelevant to add even if I get a picture for picture comparison?--Hitsuji Kinno 03:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

It may fall under the WP:OR.. :( It could be something you could put on your own website, though. -Malkinann 04:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Peer review?

I'm getting a bit bored and so I'd like to put something up for peer review - I was thinking either Dark Kingdom, Sailor Stars or Naoko Takeuchi - the first two because they're sort of our templates, and the last because Hitsuji's recently rewritten it. Which one would youse prefer to be reviewed? -Malkinann 05:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Naoko Takeuchi, 'cause I'm most confident about it. XD --Masamage ♫ 05:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm missing one or two references for Naoko Takeuchi--mainly because I don't know how to handle them. It goes something like this: I have two of the interviews that are no longer online. Being as an insane fan as I was (which is more self-deprecation than a boast here), I kept most of the reviews, I copied and pasted them. I found one with Kappa magazine. *BUT* the original source is dead and it won't come up on archives.org. I have two of these. One from Kappa magazine and one from a dead college website. With the interview with Kia Asamiya, you can get tons of good stuff to include, but I hesitate because I'm confused about how to do citation. The one from the Japanese website is unfortunate because archive.org doesn't read Japanese! --;; (If you know a work around I know more Japanese now than I did then.) It catalogues it... but messes up the encoding. I *do* have a crap translation. And I can pull things from that, but I'm not sure how to handle that citation. The PGSM citation is more tricky. I *know* by gut feeling, instinct and watching the show the heavy Takeuchi-sensei influence of PGSM. All of the pieces just fit too perfectly. I can feel her influence in the costumes, the production and most of all in the storyline. Besides Usagi has proper odango. I just need to have someone with the production book translations to see if we can track down anything... ideas on this are welcome and then I'm pretty confident we could get it up to GA.--Hitsuji Kinno 00:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
You could perhaps host the offline interviews on your own website??? Maybe then we could work out what to do with them. -Malkinann 07:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I can do that, but I'm a bit worried about copyright issues... 'cause technically I can't track down to owners to ask them if I can post them. Ideas on how to get around this issue would be nice--even though I'm giving credit, it's kind of mean/weird to take someone's material without permission, even if it's a defunct site. Being a creative I'm sensitive to such issues... Anyway, I'll post them with a disclaimer. If they are voted down then we can take them down, if they are considered useful then we can do a manhunt to figure out how to properly credit/get permission.--Hitsuji Kinno 19:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Adding 'Contains Japanese text' to the articles

I've started doing this, since it seems like one of the easist tasks to complete at the moment. I just wanted to let everyone know that the pages that do have the tag on there already, I've been moving to the top of the page. If they sit at the bottom, most people won't even notice them, plus they seem designed to go at the tops of page (the template). If anyone has any problems with this, please let me know. Zemalia 18:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks for adding that! My only concern is that I thought it was designed for the bottom of the page. It's kind of distracting at the top. --Masamage ♫ 18:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't really look like it belongs there, especially since it has a right alignment. The ones that are meant for the bottom of pages are usually left aligned, or center. If you want me to change them, I will, but I personally like them better this way. Edit: I looked at some of the main Japanese text pages and they seem to all be on the top as well. Zemalia 19:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
At the top just creates clutter with the animanga infobox. So, yes please, move them to the bottom. Also, like I said in your talk page, this template is not to place in articles that have just a bit of Japanese text (like the name of a character). Kazu-kun 20:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Fixed all the errors I've made so far. Sorry for causing trouble. I'll go find something less destructive to do. Zemalia 20:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Bwa ha ha. I've done so much worse. XD --Masamage ♫ 20:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the fast respond. And don't worry about it. Wikipedia is quite tricky, and it takes some time to get used to all the guidelines and such. Kazu-kun 20:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Moon (arc) move

I think it's fair to say it's safe now. No objections, and how many months has it been? Then we can strike off that issue.--Hitsuji Kinno 02:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Are we being lazy then...? --;; Maybe I should move it. (Which means editing the box....)--Hitsuji Kinno 20:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Basically, yes, because there are a bunch of other things to change along with it. But I've got work to avoid right now, so I'll go ahead and take care of it. X) --Masamage ♫ 20:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: PGSM Takeuchi-sensei

She was also the creator of the outfits for(And maybe the forms of) Princess Sailor Moon, and Luna's Human and Senshi state. This is noted on their pages but i'd thought bring it up here to add to whats stated above. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 14:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

We need specific links/pages, not just generalized statements. The more *specific* references we get, the better chance the article will be one of the only GA mangaka rated pages... So pull up the links and pages.--Hitsuji Kinno 22:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I've seen her drawings of human-Luna's costumes, which is pretty good proof, so everyone keep an eye out for those. --Masamage ♫ 00:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Kakyuu, Galaxia, ChibiChibi Appearance Boxs

Simple thing. Should we make Them or or not? I already have a few reasons for yes and no for all three. If you guys have any more arguments in one way or another, feel free to add them. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 14:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Kakyuu

Yes reasons

  • More uniform: Only charcters with their own pages with out one. (Applys for all 3))
  • She appears in 2 versions of the series and has more than one form


No Reasons

  • Only 2 forms for listing
  • Her one form only appears in the Manga.
  • The box would be quite small.

ChibiChibi

Yes Reasons

  • More Uniform: See argument for Kakyuu
  • Has 5 forms: Chibichibi, Sailor Chibichibi (moon), Sailor Cosmos, Light of hope, Sword of Sealing.

No Reasons

  • Hope of light and Sword of sealing appear in the same episode
  • Again small box.

Galaxia

Yes Reasons

  • More Uniform: See argument for Kakyuu
  • 3 forms. Normal, Possesed/Fully Evil and True.

No Reasons

  • Is villan. We've only used these for Heros
  • Once more, it would be a small box.

Manual of Style Character Guidelines

At the anime-manga Manual of Style talk page, there is discussion about creating a characters guideline - do people think that Sailor Mercury, our template article, fits the proposed structure? If we ever want to make it featured, we will have to make it fit the relevant style guidelines, so now's our chance to speak up. -Malkinann 00:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Media Release Page?

Is there one? I was looking around for info on some of the CDs and figurines, but I wasn't able to find anything. Does anyone know if I just missed them, or if there's nothing on wikipedia about these products? If there isn't, shouldn't we have something like that for the project? Zemalia 14:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

There isn't any article for that, mainly because the Compleat CD List alone scares the snot out of us. o_O The section Sailor Moon (anime)#Music talks about it some and links to the above page, but there's nothing about action figures and things. I think it'd be a good idea, I just don't know how it's possible to actually pull off. There's so much! --Masamage ♫ 16:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Good point. The music is a lot to cover, but its good we still have some links up to other pages. Maybe it can be a future, future project, when all of the other articles are GA Class... lol. I think the best way to start with Sailor Moon media releases would be to pick something specific, like figurines. At least those can't be fan produced... well anyways. There's other stuff like the Trading Card Game as well (I remember having some of the sets myself) and official merchandise. Would be hard to locate, but its an idea anyways. I'll see what kind of info I can gather on the figurines for now. Should I start a stub article, or keep it to the test page for now? Zemalia 02:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Maybe a test page while we figure out? Oh, and you'll probably be interested to know about Sailor Moon Collectible Card Game. :) --Masamage ♫ 04:40, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The character guidelines draft (see above) seems to be very interested in toy releases and suchlike. :( As of 1998, there were over 5000 products released for Sailor Moon. (Grigsby, 1998) This is also something that's a bit scary. -Malkinann 20:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

We must be obsessed

I took a look at the other wikipedia language entries.. the only one that gets close to our insanity is the Spanish page...

I did find the image on: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailor_Moon of the Sailor Suits kind of interesting. What's also interesting is that the Asian countries put a lot of weight into the list that Takeuchi-sensei repeated over and over again. That is astrology, the likes the dislikes, the blood type, etc. But I still wonder why we are showing more mania healthy obsession than any other of the countries. I mean Brazil is also obsessed... what is it about us as a group that spurred a project... O.o;; Or are we all psychotic. ^.~--Hitsuji Kinno 17:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikimoon copyright violation on ChibiChibi

Wikimoon seems to have (accidentally) copied in parts our ChibiChibi article.  :( I've reported it to them at [2], but I thought I should just let WP:SM know. -Malkinann (talk) 23:11, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

There's no such thing as copyright violation on Wikipedia. Wikipedia articles are under the GFDL license, so anyone can use the content as long as they don't profit from it. Kazu-kun (talk) 22:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, that sounds right. We just can't copy from WikiMoon. --Masamage ♫ 00:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
But it "requires all copies and derivatives to be available under the same license.", which isn't the case with WikiMoon. -Malkinann (talk) 20:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh, hmm. You're right, that does seem weird. Other people certainly can't suddenly apply an unfree liscence to our material. --Masamage ♫ 07:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, Creative Commons and GFDL are not compatible between each other, so we can't copy from CC, nor they can copy from GFDL. However, lists are usually considered not "copyrightable" unless there is a certain degree of reasoning (a list of chronologically sorted albums cannot be copyrighted because it is public knowledge, but a list of the most important songs of the 20th century could be because they would be sorted by a criteria that is decided by the original creator. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 16:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Found another good source

Just thought I should give everyone a heads up on a translation of the Materials collection that I found. I've been going around citing a whole bunch of stuff in the articles that was relevant and in here, and maybe other people might want to have a look at it. It can be found here[3]. That's it for now. Oh, and maybe someone could archive this talk page.. its starting to get a bit big and I'm no good at archiving. Zemalia (talk) 17:56, 24 November 2007 (UTC)