Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling/Style guide

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Moved per comment made by SteelersFan UK 06

Hello WP: Professional Wrestling gang! I've been away from the project and Wikipedia as a whole for quite some time and have just recently returned and started to contribute again. I have some questions and comments for you guys and I hope you will be patient with me and consider what I have said and comment/answer my questions accordingly (citing policy if relevant). Thanks!

  • There seemed to be some kind of (unwritten to my knowledge) general consensus at one point to italicize the names of televised wrestling shows and pay-per-views. I know we do this with RAW and SmackDown! and believe this to be correct. But what about things like SummerSlam 2002 or WrestleMania 23? Is it still correct to italicize things like this? Please include reasoning in your answer as to why or why not they should be italicized.
  • I don't know if there is a general rule to follow on abbreviations, but it makes sense to me that for every article, the first mention of something like "World Wrestling Entertainment" should always have the common abbreviation (if there is one) afterwards (e.g. World Wrestling Entertainment (WWE), and THEN and ONLY then (now that it has been established what "WWE" means), can the abbreviation "WWE" be used by itself. This happens A LOT; an abbreviation crops up out of nowhere when it has not been introduced previously in the article. And yes, you, me and Joe Blow know what WWE, WWF, WCW, TNA etc. stand for but many people in the world do not. Thoughts on this (please provide reasoning)?

Comments (personal feelings - feel free to cite official Wiki policy to me etc. if it exists):

  • Over linking - I feel that there is a general over linking problem specifically in (but not limited to) professional wrestling related articles. It is my understanding that, in general (but not a hard in fast rule), something only needs to be wiki-linked the first time it appears in an article (with some exceptions):
    • Example article: Triple H (NOTE: This is just an EXAMPLE, I am NOT saying the instances I have listed below necessarily appear in the article I am talking about - but we try to format all the wrestler articles the same way, promotion articles the same way etc.)
      • Link in question World Wrestling Entertainment
        • It obviously makes sense to link this in the first paragraph of the article because it is the first time it appears in the article.
        • "Championships and accomplishments" section - again, I can see here how the link to WWE makes sense again. This is a section of wrestler articles that is possibly often viewed independently of the entire article (someone looks only at this section because they are only interested in stats).
        • In captions on pictures (I could go either way on this - its not really what I'm concerned with).
        • Randomly linked again here and there in the body of the article - Not Needed - the link has already been introduced.
        • In sections like "Outside of Wrestling" - Not Needed.
      • Link in question: Shawn Michaels
        • The first time his name appears in Triple H's article it should be linked.
        • If he was a Manager of Triple H then I suppose it may be linked again in the Manager section (I don't think this is necessary if its already in the body of the article but I wont fight it or remove these links).
        • I don't feel, however, that Shawn Michaels (or whatever wrestler) needs to be linked every time his name appears in the "Championships and accomplishments" section of Triple H's (or whoever's) article. If it has to be linked again here at all (given that it already appears in the body of the article), the first mention of the name in that section should be linked and subsequent mentions of the name in that section should not be linked. This would go for any other similar sections of articles.
      • Link in question: WWE Home Video
        • On Triple H's page this link appears 3 times in the "Media" section of the article back to back. Is this necessary? Can only the first mention be linked? (Again if this is how to do it according to some official Wiki policy, please feel free to point this out to me). I just bring it up because I think its redundant.
      • Link(s) in question: Dates in general

(The following text has been copied and pasted directly from Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) (autoformatting and linking) section:

[edit] Autoformatting and linking

  • Full dates, and days and months, are normally autoformatted, by inserting double square-brackets, as for linking. This instructs the WikiMedia software to format the item according to the date preferences chosen by registered users. It works only for users who are registered, and for all others will be displayed as entered.

Do not autoformat dates that are:

    • in article and section headings,
    • on disambiguation pages,
    • within quotations (unless the original text was wikilinked).

The autoformatting mechanism will not accept date ranges (December 13–17, 1951) or slashes (the night of 30/31 May), which must be input without using the function. Thus:

    • either [[January 15]] (US editors) or [[15 January]] (others) will be rendered as either January 15 or 15 January, according to a registered user's set preferences; and
    • [[January 15]], [[2001]] (US editors), [[15 January]] [[2001]] (others), [[2001-01-15]] (ISO), or [[2001 January 15]] will be rendered as January 15, 2001, 15 January 2001, 2001-01-15, or 2001 January 15, according to a registered user's set preferences.
  • Wikipedia has articles on days of the year, years, decades, centuries and millennia. Link to one of these pages only if it is likely to deepen readers' understanding of a topic. Piped links to pages that are more focused on a topic are possible ([[1997 in South African sport|1997]]), but cannot be used in full dates, where they break the date-linking function.

Please note the line I have bolded above. I believe the over linking and misuse of date linking is probably an issue for many of our wrestling articles. Ask yourself, does linking every date that something happened (Wrestling event, title change etc.) in every article REALLY and ACTUALLY "deepen reader's understanding of a topic"? I'm not so sure it does. Please comment on this issue with your own thoughts and interpretations of the date linking policy.

And its not just over linking - its the fact that linking seems to be done haphazardly. Sometimes dates are linked, sometimes they aren't. Sometimes its the full date, sometimes its just the day/month. Sometimes a year is linked and sometimes not. And its not always just a "only link it the first time it appears in an article" issue ....its just all over the place, I don't know how to explain it better. There needs to be some kind of policy to follow.

These are just a few things that I think we might need to work on with this project regarding style and formatting. These are my ideas and opinions and I'm not trying to step on any toes. I just want to know how things should be done properly and whether or not we need to come to a general consensus on some of these and other issues (if there isn't one already). Some of the things I have talked about here continuely get changed or formatted differently depending on the article (by both experienced and non experienced users) - So I think the Project needs to represent a united front on as many issues as possible regarding style and formatting so that everyone is correcting things the same way (whatever way that may be).

I also feel that some of this information (mainly the parts specific to wrestling articles) belongs in this project's style guide section for reference for all users.

Another reason I bring these things up is that I seem to come across comments here and there on various pages throughout Wikipedia that people seem to think this project and its contents are a joke or waste of time. People don't use those words specifically, but after reading enough comments over the months/years in different places, that is what I have inferred. It probably has to do with how many people view professional wrestling in the first place ("fake", "rigged", "blue collar", "stupid" whatever) which is unfortunate. I just happen to really enjoy it for its entertainment value! ..ok I'm getting off topic ..but anyway the more things we can do to streamline and clean up this project, the less certain people might stop looking down on it (or whatever you want to call it) and start helping with it. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it currently, but like many aspects of Wikipeida (and life in general) there is room for improvement and I would like to help with these type of administrative issues because I really enjoying organizing things.

Ok I think I've used up enough space here - please let the comments flow! :)

--Naha|(talk) 20:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I strongly agree with the writing formats and rules you have put forth. However, I disagree strongly with you on the issue of cleaning up the wrestling wikiproject. Notably, just about everything is wrong with the wikiproject; it is not researched through good sources, only from simpletons using the WWE.com page to find week-by-week events. Not once have I seen fan reaction to, or analysis of a wrestler's career history. I only see, with as you stated, dates, details, and names of arcane pay-per-views, wrestling events etc, when different events took place. Even as a wrestling fan, a term I use loosely, I must say, just about all of the articles are rather boring and written in an unencyclopedic tone.

I think the wikiproject has changed for the worst. The Montreal Screwjob, for example, was written with such interest, passion, and intense cooperation, it reached the status of "Today's FA" on the main page. Instead, now, CM Punk, and an array of no-name wrestlers are being promoted to Good-Article class because of nice referencing, but a lack of knowledge. Let me show you an example from CM Punk, an article even wrestling fanatics couldn't stand to read:

Punk's home promotion for his early career is usually considered to be Independent Wrestling Association: Mid-South (IWA:Mid-South).[3] What does that mean? That meanst that nobody knows, but it is considered to be that promotion? That means he was on the indy circuit, moving, travelling, wrestling in various promotions, but some nerd decided to look for the oldest history of him wrestling, and found documented evidence that he was first there.

During Punk's time in IWA:Mid-South he had high profile feuds with Colt Cabana and Chris Hero while also rising to the top of the roster winning the IWA Mid-South Light-Heavyweight Championship twice and the IWA Mid-South Heavyweight Championship on five separate occasions. He became a popular draw at the promotion, rising through the ranks for his noted extreme stunts and high-risk manuevers. Feuding with such high-profiles as Colt Cabana and Chris Hero, he soon bested them in clean wrestling ability to become champion, achieving the Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight titles in multiple title reigns (I don't think the exact # will matter, especially in the article. The bottom has Championships and Achievements).

Notably his feud with Hero included a 55-minute TLC match,[3] a 93-minute two out of three falls match[6] and several 60-minute draws.[8] Punk's matches with Cabana led him to being hired by Ring of Honor promotion.[6] Only a dipshit couldn't put two and two together here. What it should read is that During his high-intensity feud with Hero, Punk received great popularity for exciting, high-endurance matches, including a dangerous TLC match. His performances, notably under a hardcore, high-endurance setting gained him the interest of the Ring of Honor promotion, which offered him a contract.

During his time in IWA:Mid-South he would also meet, wrestle against and become a friend of Eddie Guerrero.[3][6] who really cares? talk about how that may have affected his wrestling training or backstage politics, or something. Or else it's dull trivia.

From February 2003 until May 2004 Punk refused to wrestle for IWA:Mid-South. Punk claims that this was in protest to Ian Rotten's treatment of Chris Hero;[3] however Hero himself has stated he believes there were other reasons and Rotten's treatment of him was just an excuse by Punk to stop working for the company.[9] This sounds somewhat interesting, but it really has no meat to it. For whatever reason, Punk refused to wrestle for Mid South for roughly a year (2003-4); likely reasons include a lower pay, rough travelling schedule, backstage issues, or even laziness, considering that he had joined the more professional, more renowned ROH promotion. Punk claimed that it was in protest of unfair treatment of fellow wrestler Chris Hero by the company, but many, including Hero himself, dismiss this as an alibi to distance himself from the promotion after being accepted by the ROH company.

Eventually Punk returned to IWA:Mid-South and continued to perform as a wrestler and commentator for them until 2005 when he was signed to World Wrestling Entertainment. His last appearance in IWA:Mid-South was on 2 July 2005 in which he competed in a sixty-minute time limit draw against Delirious. Completely unimportant. All trivia. Ok, he came back, but that is not important. A trivia could say "Did you Know?" that he was under contract to the Mid South promotion before being accepted to WWE, wrestling his last match on 2 July 2005 with Delirious, a 60 min time limit draw? I mean, who gives a shit? I can't believe someone would bother to write the day, the outcome, his opponent, and a whole bunch of details about CM Punk's uneventful return to the company.

I did this to show how out of reality the wrestling fans who edit the wikiproject are. The research is mind-boggling, because it is from the wrestling sites alone, and is not interpretated with any thought. If it were, it might read as a story, like what I was able to put together.--Screwball23 talk 22:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok ok, I admit it I agree with you completely. I just find it so easy to accidently hurt people's feelings or get on people's bad sides etc around here (Wikipedia in general) that I was trying to very carefully choose my words. Normally I have zero tact and get in lots of trouble for it (a large part of my several month absence from WP) ...but I'm trying (very hard) to do better in an effort to actually have people work with me instead of against me. I'm glad to know there is at least one other out there who feels the same way! (That the project needs help, that is). Please please ..other people voice your opinions because this Project does need help. Thanks, --Naha|(talk) 01:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Well I'm certainly glad that all wrestling fans are lumped into one great big category if slack-jawed bumpkins who're lucky enough to even use this here "Kumputer" and get on that "Interweb". Insulting the people on this project isn't exactly the best way to go around getting them to actually listen to you - and hey let's just ignore WP:Civil while we're at it too - it's not for those that write wrestling articles. isn't it funny that you don't mind complaining about the CM Punk article, how about improving it instead? or is complaining just easier? (not directed at the original author who has a ton of good points about writing style etc but then gets his message corrupted by negativity) MPJ-DK 05:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Huh? :P --Naha|(talk) 12:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh yeah btw when I have a bit of time I'll give you my take on the original suggestion, it has a lot of good stuff in it. MPJ-DK 05:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Alright a helpful responce to a very well thought out post by Naha. (In bullet list below)
  • I didn’t know about the italics for shows, my view is that it shouldn’t actually be used – italics are generally for stressing a point and that type of thing, not to illustrate a show name. My view? Get rid of it.
  • It’s a common rule of writing, don’t use an abbreviation before you explain it – unfortunately that’s a rule a lot of wrestling articles violate (repeatedly)
  • Linking My take on the linking? Acceptable linkage in my view extends to the following and nothing more.
  • First time the name or term is used in the general text – the only exception I’ve used is if I refer to old names of the WWE like Capitol Sports or WWWF I sometimes link the name there too.
  • First time it’s used in the “In Wrestling” section (optional)
  • First time it’s used in the “Championships and Accomplishments”
  • Date linking
  • the MoS quoted generally means that when full dates & year are listed they should be linked but not when it’s just a date with no year, a year with no specific date, a month or a day of the week (Monday) – then they should only be linked if helps the reader’s understanding. So January 21, 1999 - yes. January 21 – no. 1999 – no. January – no. Monday – no. The linking of full date isn’t just to link the date but to use the automatic format of dates according to your preference (so that it can be shown in the local format).
Further comments – I’m totally with you, the Styleguide needs to be maintained and actually referenced to when changes are made, case in point – the “In wrestling” section, is that the right place for nicknames? The right place for quotes? The more lists we put in that section the more crufty it seems. The fact that the styleguide doesn’t refer to the info boxes is criminal and something I’ve pointed out ages ago. And yes the project does get the “wrestling is just fake and as such fairgame” – just look at the articles that have been allowed to be gutted completely, never happened to say Tom Hanks there’d be an uproar and a banning or 4. MPJ-DK 10:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Excellent points and suggestions MPJ. This is just what I was looking for. I hope other people keep them coming, in a week or so after many have voiced their opinions I plan to start trying to re-write/organize the Style Guide portion of this project to keep it in-line with Wikipedia policy and guidelines (if applicable) and then take a look at re-organizing the entire project so that we may get it on the track it needs to be on. --Naha|(talk) 12:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
As for Screwball’s comments – please note the appropriate sections on “No Original Research” and the removal of “Peacock” and “weasel” words since your suggestions are littered with examples of all three. Interpretations quickly lead to “Original Research” which is a big, bad buzzword at Wikipedia, we’re not writing wrestling columns here it’s an encyclopedia that should generally contain verifiable facts not rumors, speculations or interpretations. MPJ-DK 10:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with MPJ-DK's take on the style points, except about the italics. It is common usage on Wikipedia to use italics for the name of a work of art, such as a television show, or movie, but not for the name of a sports event (see Manual of Style (Titles)). (We had an inconclusive discussion about this last November). The problem with the names of wrestling shows is that they are part theatrical presentation, and part sports event. My take is that the names of TV shows should always be italicized, and the names of Pay Per Views should only be italicized when referring to a specific show, eg. Wrestlemania 23, but not when talking about the annual phenomenon of Wrestlemania. - Geoffg 02:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments; I was actually just wondering about the WrestleMania 23 vs. WrestleMania issue earlier today as far as itallics go! --Naha|(talk) 02:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

My beefs: Mentioning the year and company initials too many times. When you're talking about a wrestler's career in a promotion, you don't have to keep mentioning said promotion's name for every championship, PPV, or TV show. And for dates, when it's established that you're discussion events of 2007, you don't have to mention 2007 everytime a date is listed! Mshake3 03:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

so you're saying that instead of using it's full name we have to pipe link (using the "|") it as "The Intercontinental title"?? I think most of them mention the promotion name for the title because that's the name of the article - or that's how it's referred to in general. And I don't think anyone said you HAD to write 2007 every time, just that if you do - make sure it's fully linked. MPJ-DK 04:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The full name should be mentioned one time, when it's first mentioned. And from there, you don't mention have to say the promotion's name again. For example, "In his WWE Intercontiental Championship match, Orton won by hitting Edge with the WWE Intercontiental Championship belt." See the problem with that? AND OF COURSE NO ONE HAD TO WRITE 2007 EVERY TIME! But that's what people do on here. And it's lame. Mshake3 12:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Alright, alright calm down ;) - I agree that when referring to a title for the second (or third etc.) there is no need to call it the "WWE Intercontinental title", that's just poor English and well I didn't really imagine that a lot of articles were that bad (you may be able to tell that I tend to stay away from the articles on the top names today). and well if you want to do the date link to help with local format you kinda do have to write 2007, which was my point - nothing more, nothing less it was actually that simple in it's beauty. Peace, love and hairgrease :) MPJ-DK 14:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The italics issue is nothing to do with Wikipedia. It's basic English "law" to italicise names of TV shows, books, films, etc. Koberulz 04:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move the Above

I suggest that the above discussion be moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling/Style guide (Where all their is is a redirect to here). Its getting a bit out of hand here and it would be more appropriate there, i think. Just a suggestion...--SteelersFan UK06 15:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)