Wikipedia talk:WikiProject PipeOrgan

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[edit] Organ stop revision

I just attempted a revision of Organ stop, and I believe it is now a better article, though it certainly needs more cleanup and information. Much of the text is pulled and revised from Pipe organ. I ended up commenting out a good portion of the article because it confused the definitions of stop and slider (the latter of which never showed up in the article). This begs the question: how shall we incorporate various chest actions (slider chest, spring chest, cone chest, Pitman chest, etc.) into the organ articles? Should they be portions of Organ stop or their own separate articles? Does anyone have a good enough understanding of these mechanisms to write about them? Am I bringing this up way too early in the life of the project? —Cor anglais 16 17:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I would have thought that an explanation of the various chest actions should be all in one action, not Pipe organ but possibly one of the others. You might be bringing this up a tiny bit too soon - we might need to get the more mundane tasks out of the way first!–MDCollins (talk) 23:35, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Organ portal?

So I was comparing some of the organ-related articles in the English Wikipedia with their corresponding organ-related articles in other languages, and I came across the "Portail de l'Orgue" at the French Wikipedia: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portail:Orgue

In addition, I found information on portals in the English Wikipedia.

This "Portail de l'Orgue" looks really cool. Can we do this on the English Wikipedia? Does it make sense to? Is there already one I don't know about? —Cor anglais 16 (talk) 21:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we can do this. I think it would be really useful. Lets add it to the list of things to do. Perhaps, I'll create a list of things that need doing to get this project up and running. There are still a few maintenance things to be done from setting up really. –MDCollins (talk) 23:49, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
The French Wikipedia Organ Project also looks as though it has some useful material that we could steal use for inspiration, although my GCSE French gets me as far as buying "un croque-monsieur, s'il vous plais"... The creator of both the Fr Project and Portal is Sonusfaber, whose talk page says that s/he speaks English at a near-native level, which might be useful if we need to ask for help or guidance, either with the Project/Portal or for matters French. I'm sure that there would be things that we could help them with in return - they have a list of articles that need writing, including Simon Preston and "Georges" Guest, for example, that we might be able to at least start off in schoolboy French for them. Bencherlite 00:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
In fact, this got me thinking - there must be material on organs at other Wikis. If we have members with language skills, then the article text might be useful. At the very least, photographs etc are almost certainly going to be re-usable under standard Wiki licences (and even if we can't understand the article we can probably work out what the caption says). For example, the German Wiki organ page has a plenty of pretty pictures, some sound files, even an animation of the mechanics of wind entering a pipe when the key is pressed. The Italian Wiki organ page has as its lead photo a shot of the Bristol Cathedral console(!); the Spanish Wiki organ page has some fine horizontal trumpets on show; even more photos and sound files at Wikimedia Commons. Might be useful to remember when we move from project page tagging to writing / improving articles. Bencherlite 00:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Yep. I think most of the photos are in the commons, so an easy access link to that would be really useful, as I think by definition, if they are in there the licenses are fine for this Wiki too. I've got average French and mostly forgotten German which have proved useful in the past, especially when expanding Olivier Latry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mdcollins1984 (talk • contribs) 00:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

Have you seen the portal?? I've given it a go, it is still work in progress but the 'box portal template' is really easy to pick up and maintain. Any suggestions welcome. I am aware that the chosen articles and pictures etc need to be vetted for quality, but I have just chosen these to demonstrate how it works for now (also we seem to have few articles of a decent standard anyway!). –MDCollins (talk) 00:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow, this looks great! I'm all for it. I can't think of any suggestions for improvement at this time, but I'm sure sometime in the life of the project we'll have a good enough start to make the portal really spiffy. I had no idea we had such a nice shot of the Roskilde organ! That needs to be somewhere in Pipe organ.—Cor anglais 16 02:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Was just about to post saying I've updated the portal a bit in order to remove it from - but it got deleted! Think I prodded it by mistake. Hopefully by the time anyone reads this it will have been recreated. –MDCollins (talk) 16:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Organ Builder

The article Organ builder is being tagged with lots of cleanup type messages and is potentially a candidate for speedy deletion. Is it worth trying to save the article? –MDCollins (talk) 11:39, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I think List of organ builders would be a good place for the list; it could also be material for Category:Organ builders Category:Pipe organ builders, if the category proves a better idea than the list. Other than that, I don't think we can use that article at this time... maybe down the turnpike we can put together a decent article on organ builders, but personally, right now, I can't think of anything I'd put in one that would turn it into a decent-sized article. At any rate, the list needs to be saved in one form or another, with appropriate wikilinks to the organ builders' articles. —Cor anglais 16 12:47, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Have moved, see talk page for further work. I'll get onto this sometime soon! –MDCollins (talk) 18:46, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Succession boxes for titulars

I just got an idea: would it be helpful to have a standardized succession box for titular organists of French churches and cathedrals (other countries, too, but the French are the folks that really dig the titular system)? I think that would be really cool somewhere down the line. —Cor anglais 16 15:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe yeah. I think we could do with getting a few people together to work on the changes above (like Pipe organ and the stop/pipes etc - ie the basic clean-up). It seems everyone is rather busy at the moment. –MDCollins (talk) 22:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of notable pipe organs

I think that the pipe organ pictured in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir article should be added to the List of notable pipe organs. It would be a great addition to the list. Arya 23:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

This organ used to come up quite a lot when the list was in its old format at the Pipe organ page. It was never really made clear why this organ was notable, other than for the sake of the choir. What do other participants think? If a paragraph could be written explaining its notability, then maybe. Perhaps a section on the organ could be added to the choir page itself? –MDCollins (talk) 23:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, from the things I've seen, there's a few distinguishing characteristics about it. Depending on who's counting, it ranks in the top 15-25 largest in the world...built by G. Donald Harrison...11,600+ pipes. Other than that, I really couldn't see anything overly special about it. Doublediapason 19:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this all quickly turns into an issue of semantics: what makes an organ "notable?" Is it historicity, size, tonal design, visual design, unique features or mechanical/electrical characteristics, the person who built it, the person who played it, the persons who played guest recitals on it, etc.? I don't know that there are any answers to these questions. This is not to say that the Mormon Tabernacle organ is or is not notable. Rather, the list itself is my concern. It seems to me to be a collection of random information. I think that if an organ is notable, it should have its article, and I think the the Mormon Tabernacle organ qualifies for its own article. Separate articles for "notable" organs would clear up the list issue, and would likely reduce the number of instruments described as "notable" by a large amount. —Cor anglais 16 00:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
"I think that if an organ is notable, it should have its article" ...or its own sub-article in a related church/building-type page. I think this is a good idea. The list was originally created in order to remove material from Pipe organ anyway, I think it may serve as links to pipe organ articles (although would a category do? - maybe not if the organs are infact sub-articles). Then they can be reduced to one-line summaries if necessary. I toyed with the idea of adding pictures to that page, which of course would be a stupid idea! –MDCollins (talk) 09:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pop organists redux

I've almost finished cleanup on Category:Pop organists. There are seven articles left:

  • four sports-venue organists (background music for sporting events),
  • one radio/tv organist (background music for old-time radio shows and early live television shows),
  • one San Franciscan theater-organist of unknown genre, and
  • one eccentric organist from New Orleans of questionable notability and unknown genre.

I'm inclined to toss those last two into Category:American organists for now, since I can't see anything better. The rest might all fit into some category together, if we can think of a good name for it. Category:Background music organists doesn't seem quite right, but it's the best I've come up with. The other option is to create both Category:Sports venue organists (to match Category:Sports venues) and Category:Radio and television organists. Thoughts? Xtifr tälk 15:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Tricky one that - I found the same with other theatre organists such as Reginald Dixon and Horace Finch who are currently in Category:English keyboardists...–MDCollins (talk) 23:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Tricky, I agree, but we need to find a home for them, otherwise someone will just throw them back at some stage. Feel free to ignore all that follows...
We can then tag Category:Pop organists for speedy deletion after 4 days, and it can always be recreated if the pop music world requires it. Bencherlite 00:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

There's also the option of making lists. Not everything has to be handled through the category system. We could have List of sports venue organists and then just classify all of these by nationality (since no genre is really mentioned). Xtifr tälk 02:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that would work too, probably better (although this time we need to check that the list doesn't already exist!) <humour> In view of our discussion elsewhere, should it be "sports venue organists", "sports venue organaists", or "sports venue organ players"?! </humour>. Bencherlite 16:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Fell across this category again on my travels. I've boldly made various changes as above. I haven't created List of sports venue organists but maybe some other time... Bencherlite 18:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sandbox

I've decided that having created a sandbox for my organ pipe revision (can anyone assist?) that it would be better in project space, so I've created some sandboxes at the top of this page. –MDCollins (talk) 14:47, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I like it! I'll be glad to assist. —Cor anglais 16 22:23, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Be bold - we are in project space after all...–MDCollins (talk) 22:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Organ pipe revision

After my difficulty last week attempting to clean up Organ stop, I looked at Organ pipe this afternoon, and my attempt met at much more success. I have restructured the article and significantly expanded it, but it is (of course) by no means complete. Since I'm new to the concept of WikiProjects, I'm assuming that the place to announce major initiatives/work done is here on the project's discussion page. If it's not, by all means, let me know! I removed the section on diaphones from Pipe organ and put it in Organ pipe in order to trim down the larger article some. Furthermore, the diaphone is not nearly significant enough a topic to warrant the kind of space it was taking up in Pipe organ. —Cor anglais 16 (talk) 22:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I wonder whether in this case, flue and reed pipes should have most of the information on their articles, (if they indeed warrant them, rather than an all inclusive Organ pipe), and then simpler descriptions at Pipe organ. Perhaps this should be our formal miniproject - cleanup and populate Organ pipe, Flue pipe and Reed pipe, then edit the main page accordingly. Can I suggest we leave Pipe organ as it is for a moment, get these other articles up to scratch, then tailor Pipe organ accordingly?
I am happy for Flue pipe and Reed pipe to remain as such, as long as Organ pipe is kept an eye on, but could they be incorporated? What do others think? The diaphone paragraph definitely doesn't require its own article as the material isn't nearly substantial enough.
MDCollins (talk) 09:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that miniproject sounds like a good first coordinated project. I also think that leaving Pipe organ alone for the time being is a good idea. Regarding Flue pipe, Reed pipe, and Organ pipe, I think the first two articles should be the main articles regarding their respective subjects (i.e., reed pipe construction, beards on flue pipes, rudimentary voicing descriptions, etc. would go in Reed pipe or Flue pipe, respectively), while Organ pipe should contain more general information related to organ pipes (i.e., pipemaking information, end construction, pipe shape, metallurgy, acoustical physics, and anything else that applies to both flues and reeds would go in Organ pipe). —Cor anglais 16 (talk) 11:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at the working page in my user space User:Mdcollins1984/Organ pipe that summarizes what I feel should be in the main Pipe organ article (so far from Pipes Ranks and Stops through to Pitch) , then a rewrite of Organ pipe - a slightly more expansive article which leaves room for the more detailed information to be found in the individual specific pages. Feel free to work on it how you see fit, then we can roll out the changes. –MDCollins (talk) 13:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Working page moved in to project sandbox –MDCollins

I have just finished a cleanup of the organ pipe revision… I think you're on to something here; most of the information currently in pipe organ can definitely go to more specialized articles. I didn't excise a lot of this information this time around, but we certainly could. Does anybody have any ideas regarding exactly how broad/specific pipe organ should be? —Cor anglais 16 02:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

My rationale was to keep pipe organ as broad as possible, while pointing to the specific material elsewhere. The simpler we can explain it, while getting all the terms in the better I think. Hence the proposal to almost cut the console section directly to a new article, with a far simpler/shorter explanation in pipe organ. It also shortens the article quite a lot, which is another plus point at the moment. I notice we disagree on the spelling of "label(l)ed". Never mind! –MDCollins (talk) 08:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think we disagree on the spelling of labelled; Firefox kept flagging it as misspelled. It makes more sense to double the L in these cases across the board (cf. "misspelled" in previous sentence!); thus, I have just updated my Firefox dictionary. —Cor anglais 16 12:20, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Weird - Firefox was flagging the single l as wrong. Interestingly, it is flagging Firefox as wrong! –MDCollins (talk) 12:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I just edited the page again... made a couple minor changes and added some comments. In the spirit of the vision for pipe organ articulated above, I flagged elements of the page I would take out with five parenthesis: ((((( ))))). I did this expecting that I would find much more to flag than I actually did. For some reason, I feel like the article is simply too long, but it's probably just me being paranoid (what for, though?!). —Cor anglais 16 01:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
And now I have edited the rest of the page. Incidentally, I've been referring to this kind of editing as "cleanup" in my edit summaries, not because what was already there was in any way "messy," but because I've seen that term used before in other edit summaries, and I don't know what else to call it! I think your proposed organ pipe revision is great... the only thing in the current live page that isn't in the proposal is the section on variations in timbre, but I'm not sure that section is very useful as is. I don't know why we can't go live with the proposal soon. —Cor anglais 16 02:18, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Things to think about:

  • Remove divisions/manual orders to organ console, perhaps with a pretty table. In time, this may be expanded into an article of its own. Have removed
  • Stop column positions - I'd be tempted to leave this...
  • I've moved the 'stop' paragraphs from pipes into stops
  • "Pull out all the stops" - can't find a suitable place for this, am tempted to just cut it. What do you think?
  • En chamade/off chest - not sure really, doesn't flow where it is, but I think it could stay in the article...

I've now gone live with the organ pipe revision, as it seems fairly stable. –MDCollins (talk) 09:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I have just incorporated all of the information from the bottom of the page Sandbox (save the lead) into Flue pipe... boy, that article needs a lot of work! —Cor anglais 16 20:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Done - gone live, edited a bit of the wind system/casing bits as well. Its reduced pipe organ by 20kb, very worthwhile I think. Probably some minor changes to make, but they can all be done in situ now. We can then get pipe organ into a really decent article now I think, then perhaps tackle some of the subs. –MDCollins (talk) 10:52, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I have taken the chance in the last few days to copyedit Organ pipe, Flue pipe, and Reed pipe, making an attempt at standardization (especially between the latter two articles) in terms of section headers, definition of terms, wikilinking, etc. There's very little referencing at this point, and they could use some more images (which I think W0lfie is working on), but I think they look better now. Organ stop is still a nightmare, as the term itself means several things and is almost impossible to define without summarizing all of Pipe organ. This all may need to wait until after the Pipe organ FA push, but I thought I'd write a short update. —Cor anglais 16 15:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I ran into some technical difficulties with the flue pipe drawing I was trying to make. But I think I've resolved them. It turns out, it's harder than it looks to make a 3D model of the pipe mouth.  :-) I should have started with a wooden pipe, I guess. --W0lfie 20:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FA push for pipe organ

Hi,

Looks like pipe organ is nearly ready to become the project's first FA. The peer review came back very favourably. For my mind there are a couple of issues I'd like to address for my personal satisfaction before we go to FA nominations:

  • Shore up the referencing, perhaps add some more in the middle/latter sections - (I'm in the process of checking all the weblinks and giving full citations for those)
  • Sort the pictures out - I wonder if there are too many, or if a Gallery section would be nice. There was a nice construction schematic on an external I found, but haven't looked at copyright to see if we can use it. I'll track it down again...
  • Some of the development section on Baroque/Romantic needs another couple of sentences to flesh them out so they don't look like stub sections (also the pictures overrun and look messy at that length).
  • One final copyedit wouldn't go a miss to!

Any other thoughts people want addressing?

–MDCollins (talk) 20:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

More later, but have you checked the French and German Wikipedia articles on the organ/pipe organ for images? As I recall, they have some pretty sweet schematics of action, etc. The famous Dom Bedos drawing of the guy with the sword playing the cutaway organ would be neat, too, if we could get it. —Cor anglais 16 13:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

No, good plan! - we have now had a slightly more detailed peer review, with some more work to be done! –MDCollins (talk) 14:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

There are now some automated peer review recommendations linked from the peer review page. So far I've attempted to address the issues with section headings and weasel words. I have also created a basic infobox that we might be able to use. Some of the items in the box may be difficult to define (range, for example… there are several to go through!), but I think it would be helpful and lend a more professional look to the article. —Cor anglais 16 02:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Whoops: forgot to link to the infobox… it's in sandbox 2 up at the top. —Cor anglais 16
I'd hadn't considered the use of an infobox, I don't particularly like this one, but that's a personal opinion. Its implementation is fine, I'm just not a fan of the template in general. Anyway, that's beside the way. The range as you say is difficult, do we use the keyboard range, or the audible one, in which case assuming 16′ as the lowest on most organs, the bottom note would be an octave lower. As for the upper range...? I've adjusted the type of instrument as its position in the article it links to!, and shuffled some of the other articles around.–MDCollins (talk) 09:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I have been wondering the same thing ever since I saw the instrument range template. I think that the way it is now is pretty reasonable. The written range is how all the other instrument info boxes are, so that makes sense. And the note about registration is about as concise as possible. I wonder about the "related instruments" section in all the other instrument info boxes. What would be considered a related instrument? Harmonium? Piano? Flute? Carillon? Electronic Organ? Also, the classification is a little tricky, too. I guess the Keyboard (aerophone) is about as NPOV as it gets. Sure there are percussion and idiophone stops, but this is about pipe organs. -W0lfie 18:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Update - I've found a few more references, am working through the article noting things that will need citations at some point. I can't see much else wrong with the article, so lets keep pushing. –MDCollins (talk) 10:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Illustrations from other wikis

I was looking around at the other versions of the pipe organ articles. It seems like the Japanese version has quite a few illustrations that would look good in the organ pipe and construction articles. If you guys think it would be worth it, I'll try to edit some of the images so the labels are numbers, rather than ideograms. I don't know how much time I'll have to do it, but I think it would really help the articles. W0lfie 17:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I for one think it would be worth it… especially in Reed pipe and Flue pipe could we use good images and schematics. —Cor anglais 16 23:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Cool. I'll give it a shot over the next few weekends. It's probably a multi-day task. Cheers! W0lfie 18:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I've started working on the flue pipe. I was wondering if we could use the stop/key air flow drawing in the French wiki [1]. -W0lfie 04:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I like it! Just have to translate it from French into English… I don't know how that fits in with the licensing. —Cor anglais 16 01:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
CC-BY-SA, should be fine as long as we link to the original. I'm still working on the pipes, so I won't be able to get to this other one for a little while. --W0lfie 17:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I added a cross-section to the flue pipe article. I ended up doing it from scratch, but it was inspired by one of the other images. I want to upload a .svg version of it, but I can't figure out how to get the various programs to talk to each other. The next task is a similar cutaway of a reed pipe. Hopefully I will get to it sooner than two months. Sorry It's taken me so long, but real life has been a bit hectic. --W0lfie 13:39, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow… I love the image! Keep it up! Hope taking care of baby doesn't totally burn you out. —Cor anglais 16 15:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Voicing

Is there an article on voicing? I couldn't find it if it's there. Unfortunately I know very little about the art of voicing, otherwise I would take a crack at writing an article. Its importance to organ building is undeniable. Surely deserves its own article complete with a history of the various techniques and applications over the centuries. Since tuning has its own article, it seems like voicing should, too. Maybe I can find some good books about it once the library construction is over. -W0lfie 04:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The closest thing I know of is Organ flue pipe scaling, but that's not really voicing. There is a provisional voicing section in Flue pipe, but there's nothing in it. The "Variations in timbre" section there used to contain some voicing information, but it's been incorporated into the rest of the article. In short, I don't think we have one. A real voicing article would be great if we can manage it. —Cor anglais 16 05:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Just found this [2] thesis. Very interesting reading, and the sources cited are varied. I thought you guys might like it, and it may help spur some ideas for a voicing article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by W0lfie (talk • contribs) 17:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Future project - simple

Anyone up for editing simple:Pipe organ once the full article has reached FA? –MDCollins (talk) 08:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow… sure; that looks like quite a project! —Cor anglais 16 16:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I was just reading that article last weekend. It sure could use some work, all right. Does the simple Wikipedia have its own style guide and vocabulary recommendations? -W0lfie 17:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
No idea! Just as simple as possible I guess...–MDCollins (talk) 07:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pipe organ

Hi,

Sorry for not doing a lot over these last couple of weeks - been busy working on getting another article to FA status. Ready for completing Pipe organ now. Anyone else ready for a combined push?? –MDCollins (talk) 10:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for a combined FA push. What do people think needs to be done to it? IMOH, we're just about ready to request a FA review… I don't think there's any shame in potentially failing it, but I'm running out of ideas to improve the article, and if that's the case with other people as well, it might be beneficial to see what the FA reviewers think. The only two sections that don't have any citations are "Console—Couplers" and "Repertoire—Overview," which shouldn't be too difficult to repair. There's also that one pesky {{cn}} tag in the lead, but other than that, I think the article looks pretty good. Thoughts? —Cor anglais 16 02:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I've played with the lead a bit more, removing that un-citable sentence. Reorganised the wind section again, as we linked twice to it from "windchests" but it didn't really explain them that well. The content is fine, we should all read the prose carefully to make sure it is tight and coherent, and find those refs.

–MDCollins (talk) 11:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of finding references, I have added a couple. I cannot find anything in print (that I own, at least) that will reference unification etc. or percussion stops. Do we need to reference the labeling of draw knobs? Also, does anyone think we are relying too much on any one reference (in particular, all those Cambridge Companion refs I add!)? —Cor anglais 16 21:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Just a thought: if anyone has Sandra Soderlund's A Guide to the Pipe Organ for Composers and Others, this will reference what I mentioned above, as well as much more about the practical matters of organ playing. —Cor anglais 16

I've added the remaining missing refs, as well as some in the repertoire section. It now looks good for a nomination to me. I wouldn't have thought the nomenclature needs referencing, and why should the 'definitive' reference not be used a lot - it is hardly controversial, or expressing POV is it!! You happy Cor? –MDCollins (talk) 10:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Looks really good… I only bring up the issue of relying too much on a particular reference because of what I found at #11 here and at #3 here. It's probably not a major concern, though, as everything that needs to be cited is cited, and we have a pretty good mix of print and online sources. I just ran through the article to copyedit once more, and I think it's a go. Woo hoo! —Cor anglais 16 16:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

What about the infobox? Shall we leave it out for now, (I'm sure someone will mention it)—I like it as it is at the moment, but that's preference for you. Lets go for it. –MDCollins (talk) 16:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I like the infobox, and think it should be included. I wish all the instruments had an infobox. Do we need to include Category:Female organists (or the other sub-categories)? --W0lfie 20:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the basic cat is ok, no need for the subs. I've imported the article into the infobox sandbox to see how it looks. There's a lot of wasted space. If anyone can think of a way to remove it, I might tolerate the infobox! I'm not happy with it the way it looks at the moment...–MDCollins (talk) 09:23, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmm… I like the idea of the infobox, but in the sandbox right now it really doesn't look that great. Also, pretty much all of the information from the infobox is somewhere in the article… except for range; maybe that could be incorporated into "Console:Keyboards?" That's really my only concern. Maybe we can leave the infobox out for now and see if the FA folks want one; if they do, direct them to the sandbox and ask for suggestions? —Cor anglais 16 11:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I just added range information to "Console:Keyboards". as I was typing it, much more ended up coming to my mind that isn't covered in the article: ravelement, split sharps, variable keyboard ranges depending on nationality and time period, "half-range" manual keyboards (as in the Echo manual of a French classical instrument), keys that don't play the note they otherwise would (as in some ravelement cases where the low C-sharp key plays AA), etc. I have incorporated some of this; do we want more, or does some of this not need to be here and would rather sit at Organ console (or a future article on French classical organs or the like) instead? I put in one {{cn}} tag as well, denoting the AGO specifications for keyboard range. But we may not need the AGO reference after all, but just a general statement on modern range convention (which would probably also need to be cited). Sorry to bring all this up at such a late stage in the game, but certainly the basic keyboard range information needs to be part of the article… what does everyone think? —Cor anglais 16 20:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering about that just the other day, when I noticed a change that said each pipe only plays one note. I thought "well what about the rare pedal pipes that play both CC and CC#" Then I thought about all the other stuff that is uncommon, but that a professional organist would expect to see at some point in his career: split-keys, toy stops, haskelled basses, etc. The organ has such variety that it would be impossible to include all of the technical esoterica in the main article, but there is plenty of room in the smaller articles like console and pipe. --W0lfie 17:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that in line with our clean-out (!) a few months ago, only the bare minimum should be left in pipe organ. Fleshing out, can be done in organ console -or elsewhere if it gets too big. History of the organ keyboard could be interesting! –MDCollins (talk) 18:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I removed most of the range paragraph from Pipe organ and placed it in Organ console, where it can be dealt with at a later date. I think History of the organ keyboard would be a great idea, but it too will have to wait. There's still a {{cn}} tag, but it could be filled in if somebody has the AGO pamphlet on organ console specifications. Are we ready for an FA review? —Cor anglais 16 16:11, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. Reworded slightly but have found a reference. I'm ready. Unfortunately I'm on a break from 28 June-2 July, so you'll have to deal with what you can until I'm back and able to help. Alternatively wait a few days - but I'd just go ahead! –MDCollins (talk) 22:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pipe Organ FA review

I have just made a few more small edits to Pipe organ and nominated it for FA review… the discussion is available at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pipe organ. I'll do my best to catch whatever the FA reviewers throw at it, but if everyone could please watch the discussion and help out that would be great! —Cor anglais 16 19:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pitch

This is something of a redux of my recent comments at Talk:Organ pipe, since they have to do with the project in general. What do we do about the definitions of pitch terminology? It makes sense in Pipe organ, but if we need to re-define it all in Organ pipe, Organ stop, and future articles about stop and wind action (which is certainly likely), that's a lot of redundancy for people to read. Should there be an Organ pitch stub to which we link from all the articles that require this terminology? Or perhaps a short template of some sort?

I don't think the section adds much to the pipe article in it's current form, since the only mention of 16' 32' etc. comes in the diaphone subsection. If the length nomenclature were used extensively in the article, then I would agree that it's necessary to include a brief explanation. Besides, the meaning of 8' etc. is covered quite well in the Organ stop article, with it's own subsection, which seems like the logical place for it.
What's more pertinent to the Organ pipe article is that the pitch and the length are related. Longer pipes are of lower pitch than shorter pipes, all other variables being equal. We could also mention that an open flue pipe has a low C that's approximately 8' long. We could link to the pitch and length subsection for those who want to learn more about that. What do you think? --W0lfie 17:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, you've got me convinced: you're absolutely correct. I will embark presently to add that information to Organ pipe. —Cor anglais 16 03:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
And done… it's not exactly elegant, but the information is now there. Copyedit away! —Cor anglais 16 03:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I've edited what you've done. I've linked to the pitch section in organ stop - if that gets moved, remove the link! –MDCollins (talk) 11:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category: Female organists is up for deletion.

The discussion is here. Bencherlite 23:00, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

It's gone! –MDCollins (talk) 22:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Erik Suter - Deletion

Erik Suter - any thoughts? Just wondering about any precedent set here, and whether it affects us. I guess this probably fails notability and isn't much of an article to lose really, but say for example it was a full length article would deletion be considered?

Think I'd be happy for it to go though... –MDCollins (talk) 22:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to deletion - the "used to" language bothers me. If it were rewritten such that he's a recording artist - which he is, with a significant discography, it might be salvaged. - Philippe | Talk 00:58, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My organ-related contributions

Just to let people know I've started various organ pages and added organ info to various other pages, as follows:

This is just a start - I hope to continue adding more. - Vox Humana 8' 22:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Good work. When I get time, I might give them all a look, see if I can add anything. You might like to check that they all have the project banner on the talkpage and add them to the Wikipedia:WikiProject PipeOrgan/Article List so we can track the recent changes. –MDCollins (talk) 07:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Created section Downside Abbey#The Organs.--Vox Humana 8' 12:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] John Sanders

Since someone on a church music forum I frequent pointed me in the direction of three obits of John Sanders, I've created an article on him at John Sanders (musician) (John Sanders is now a disambiguation page after I moved an American Theologian from there to John E. Sanders). Feel free to copyedit, expand further, correct catgorisation (I based cats on the Stanley Vann page) etc., etc.. David Underdown 15:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review of Bath Abbey

Would very much like some feedback on this, having completed a total rewrite, before going to WP:GA about it.--Vox Humana 8' 23:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Looks pretty good to me... you may need some more citations, but the GA reviewers are probably not so concerned with this. There seem to be a lot of red links, too... I'm not sure if those count against you or not. —Cor anglais 16 17:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Embedding media files

I've uploaded some recordings of my playing to Wikimedia Commons for use in the articles on Scheidemann and Frescobaldi. Currently the articles contain a link to the file page on the Commons; however, I would like to make the works playable directly from the page itself. Can someone please leave a note on my talk page explaining how to do this? Random Pipings (talk) 04:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)Random Pipings

Nevermind! I figured it out - didn't realize the [[Image:]] tag worked for Wikimedia files as well! Random Pipings (talk) 04:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Random Pipings

[edit] Article on registration

I've started an article on registration - is this already covered under another article? Random Pipings (talk) 21:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC) Random Pipings

I don't remember seeing one. That could be a really interesting article. The art of registration has seen so many changes over the centuries, and it is quite important to the organ, its construction, and its music. I'm surprised an article hasn't been written yet. I'm looking forward to reading it! --W0lfie (talk) 14:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Note, folks, that Registration (organ) has been nominated for deletion. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Registration (organ). —Cor anglais 16 05:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of French organists

Hello, is it OK with everyone if I move List of French organists to French organ school? I created the article German organ schools a while ago, and thought it would be nice to have an article for the French school as well, with a list of composers currently available at List of French organists, and a list of standard forms (duo, recit, etc.) as well. "List of French organists" is kind of misleading, too, since it doesn't actually list French organists like Olivier Latry, as most people would expect from the title. If anyone has any objections or suggestions, I'd be glad to discuss any. Jashiin (talk) 15:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Article moved, all links and redirects fixed. Jashiin (talk) 14:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ton Koopman, youtube connection erased, why?

Hello, a few weeks ago i added a paragraph with connection to media, youtube, showing Ton directing his orchestra (Bach Cantata 10). I would like to know why somebody erased it. Thank you, Adrian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrian Comollo (talk • contribs) 16:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

many youTube clips are psoted in violation of copyright so links are often deleted on sight. David Underdown (talk) 16:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] J. W. Walker & Sons Ltd

This article was created and needs a lot of work - I feel a ground-up rewrite coming on. For now, though, can we try wikifying the existing article where necessary and removing POV stuff, perhaps add a few appropriate images. Thanks!--Vox Humana 8' 17:53, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category:English classical organists

The related Category:English classical organists has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for Discussion page.