Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pink Floyd

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To-do list for Wikipedia:WikiProject Pink Floyd: edit · history · watch · refresh

Highest priority

Fair use

Articles

  • Try to expand all songs stubs if possible. Some song stubs cant be expanded (For example Main Theme on the More soundtrack). Use the excellent Echoes (Pink Floyd song) article as an example when editing a song stub.
  • Expand album articles (all).
  • Remove Trivia sections.
  • Remove YouTube links.

Project building

  • Add WikiProject Pink Floyd banner {{WPFloyd}} to all appropriate Talk pages.
  • Add/update assessments for all project pages.
  • Personally invite quality editors working on Pink Floyd articles to join the project.

Contents

[edit] Quality of The Division Bell Article

I have recently been editing The Divison Bell article to bring it closer to Featured Status, as have I "adopted" it. I added the citations that it was previously lacking, but I do not know what else to add to make it good enough to be Featured. I am thinking of adding .ogg samples of the songs on the album and perhaps adding some free source versions of the often-praised booklet artwork. Any other ideas? I am not yet focusing on the individual song articles yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr. Mantis (talk • contribs) 02:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Song Articles, esp. The Division Bell tracks

I would like to put in my two cents that interpretations be removed from the articles regarding songs on The Division Bell and more citations of the band's comments regarding the songs be added. There are numerous sources in which Gilmour basically states that he refuses to say what the songs are about, but he gives various hints. Anything that is not a direct quote is pure speculation and may actually hinder the ability of the reader/listener to form his or her own unique ideas about the music, which is exactly what the band seems to prefer - leaving the songs open to interpretation.

And example of this is the page for "Take it Back." The introduction is ripe with speculative meanings of the song, none of which have ever been confirmed or encouraged by the band. --Chinagreenelvis (talk) 20:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New member

I'm a huge Floyd fan so I've jsut signed up. I don't do a ton of editing, but I'll try and help otu with things here as I'm able Sir Elderberry 19:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] joining

I would like to join this project. --Sul V 17:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Does one join simply by adding their name to the main page, or are there rites of initiation, you know, with paddles and stuff (I sure hope)? edgarde 21:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Simply add your username into the list of (active) participants. --Dr. Who 16:44, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] categories

[edit] categories for Harvest and EMI records

Harvest Records has always been owned by EMI. Is it sensible to make Harvest into a subcategory of EMI, and delete the EMI category from any Harvest release (unless it has been reissued)? In case there's a precedent, I've also asked this same question in talk:WikiProject Albums. I think it also belongs under [Capitol Records], which can be streamlined the same fashion. This obviously wouldn't be done for albums that were not issued on Harvested, such as the post-Final Cut albums. One thing I'm not sure of — have the Harvested albums been reissued under just Capitol/EMI imprints (that don't say "Harvested")? edgarde 21:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] The Wall live

How come we have two sub-articles for The Wall live? There is one in the wall article itself and one in the Live Performances article? What should we do? I think the one in The Wall does a much better job of expaning the concert, but I think that the igger article should be in the Live perfomances page. Should we have a short paragraph in the wall page and then revamp the Live perfoamces article on the wall in concert, and put a main article link in the wall page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mastercheif (talk • contribs)

[edit] Joining

I would like to join. I'm a big Pink Floyd fan. This is my first edit with this account, but I've made most edits just with my IP. --Dsotm 01:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Avast ye Floydians

I'd like to join as well. I did most of the work on the article for Roger Waters' 2006 tour, so, I might as well make it official.

[edit] I want to join

All my favorite albums and all I listen to is Pink Floyd (with some Green Day and Wierd Al). How do I join? --ASDFGHJKL 00:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project Directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages:

  • User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory 2,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Philosophy and religion Directory,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Sports Directory,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory/United States, (note: This page will be retitled to more accurately reflect its contents)
  • User:Badbilltucker/History and society directory, and
  • User:Badbilltucker/Science directory

and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 21:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if you tried to update it before, and the corrections were gone. I have now put the new draft in the old directory pages, so the links should work better. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused you. B2T2 00:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 18:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Links to fix

I am afraid that several links within Pink Floyd's related articles still need to be fixed. I just began fixing James Guthrie , that is not James Guthrie, American politician. Cheers. --Dr. Who 01:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wiki Project Pink Floyd

Dear wikimates, I've recently sadly realized that a founder of this project, Dharmabum420, left Wikipedia a few months ago. I joined this project after him, but I've been away for several months myself. So, please accept my apologies for not having come here before. --Dr. Who 02:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Urgent edit is needed!

Can someone please add any available info regarding David Gilmour's last single version of Arnold Layne? --Dr. Who 16:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Um, one of our examples are off...

On the project's page, when discussing when not to use the Pink Floyd template, it says, "and is probably not necessary in articles about more peripheral subjects (eg. Jon Carin)". Well, there's one on Jon Carin's disscusion page. Should the example be changed, or should we remove it from his talk page? --ASDFGHJKL=Greatest Person Ever+Coolest Person Ever 18:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Credits

I have just noticed that someone has changed the layout of the credits section in the Meddle album article. Could we decide on a definitive layout for every album credit section, so that some sort of continuity can be maintained across the whole Pink Floyd album project. Should every credit section look like the one found in the Meddle article? Can i have your opinions please - Ummagumma23 19:48 2 April 2007 (UTC)

We should have just one definitive layout for every album credit section, to ensure a higher level of continuity across the whole Pink Floyd album project.Doktor Who 02:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In The Flesh (disc 2) [Roger Waters]

In the track list, there's an error. Track 5 and 6 were switched, I think.

It has to be:
5. Perfect Sense (Parts I And II)
6. The Bravery Of Being Out Of Range
Djsiesel 14:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge of A Tree Full of Secrets to List of Pink Floyd ROIOs

Hey guys, I'm proposing this merger on A Tree Full of Secrets talk page. Put in your opinion, or I will merge it in a week if I don't get any votes. --ASDFGHJKL=Greatest Person Ever+Coolest Person Ever 00:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Pink Floyd tribute albums

FYI: Category:Pink Floyd tribute albums. Andy Mabbett 15:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New urgent tasks

Two users of the project have been recently blocked, Pigsonthewing (a.k.a Andy Mabbett) and Dharmabum (the founder of this project). I regret that I have been inactive for many months, and couldn't do nothing for them.

Sadly, I see that A tree full of secrets and List of Pink floyd Rojos have been deleted, as well as most of pictures and sound samples that were uploaded by Dharmabum. See here, user Videamus Omnia (translated from latin to English would mean: we see everything) is also going to delete lots of images from several articles, maybe in the field of progressive rock, I guess. We urgently need to write some fair use/free use rationales.

Another important task is to check if the ppl listed as members of the project are currently active.--Doktor Who 01:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Why were Mr. Mabbett and Dharmabum blocked? NH 79.121.143.143 (talk) 23:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)14th Feb 08

[edit] Fair use rationales

Although i have been an editor on wikipedia for over a year, im not sure what i could write as a fair use rationale and because im not an administrator could i even write one? I see that we are losing images and song samples a lot these days so id like to help.Ummagumma23 08:54 24 August 2007 (UTC)

You don't need to be an administrator. Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline explains what you need to know.
Here are the handy templates: {{Album cover fur}}, {{Non-free album cover}}. I think both are needed. A typical entry might look like this:
{{Non-free album cover}}
{{album cover fur
   | Article = Animals (album)
   | Use = Infobox
   | Name = Animals
   | Artist = [[Pink Floyd]]
   | Label = [[EMI]]
   | Graphic Artist = [[Hipgnosis]]
   | Item = front cover
   | Type = album
   | Purpose = Illustrates the appearance of the album and identifies it by recognized features.
 }}
Consider the template documentation for more options.
For art other than album covers, use {{Non-free media rationale}} / edg ☺ ★ 08:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help .Ummagumma23 20:04 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pinkfloyd.jpg resolution downgrade

This needs to be done for all non-free images, including all album covers larger than 300px in either dimension. If we wait for images to be tagged, many or most will be deleted and lost before the tag is discovered.

Image:Pinkfloyd.jpg was tagged for deletion for being too high-resolution to be fair use in the Pink Floyd infobox. Per WP:NFCC#3b I reduced it to below 300px longest @ 72dpi.

Before
Image:Pinkfloyd.jpg		 After
[[removed non-free images per WP:NFCC#9]]

Yes there is some loss, but this is the best I can get at this size and resolution.

I won't be doing many of these. For anyone who wants to help out, I left some (simple) instructions beneath the licensure info for the new image. That page also has a sample fair use rationale for Pink Floyd images. / edg ☺ ★ 22:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Update: I've performed this unpopular procedure for all album covers (studio, soundtracks, live, compilations, including those not in the succession), and added or updated Fair Use Rationales as needed. I did not do check the non front cover bonus images on The Dark Side of the Moon, or any non-album pages.
Still plenty of work to go around. / edg ☺ ★ 06:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


Many thanks for your help. ^_^ Doktor Who 13:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New task

Is there any list that includes every article, even just peripherally, related to Pink Floyd? If not, we need to create one, step by step.Doktor Who 14:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Where should this list be placed? Im willing to do it Ummagumma23 18:56 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Centralized Talk Archive FAQ list

Maybe this is a stupid idea, but some discussion on Talk:Pink Floyd seemed better-suited to other article Talk pages, so I set up a centralized Talk Archive FAQ that could be transcluded to whatever page could benefit. Here's an example; note that the #FAQ is a page anchor so this section can be linked directly.

Hopefully this will help reduce redundant Talk page inquiries. I have not yet looked at other Talk archives for other suitable FAQ links. If no other Talk pages can use this box, I'll change Talk:Pink Floyd#FAQ back to non-transcluded and delete the centralized FAQ. / edg ☺ ★ 00:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed this. Worked okay, but couldn't find other Talk pages with archived content worth including, so the centralized approach just added needless complexity. How embarassing. / edg ☺ ★ 00:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inflatable pigs on Roger Waters' tours

Torc2 and I can't seem to find a consensus on whether to have or not ot have a list of links at the bottom of the article [1]. Please see our discussion here: Talk:Inflatable pigs on Roger Waters' tours#Links to people etc. Any other opinions? --BeautifulFlying (talk) 00:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] BAD SOURCE to be avoided!

Hello. I'm a casual contributor to Wikipedia, but I've got a bug up my butt lately. I've started to notice that people are adding "facts" to Pink Floyd articles and citing a book called Another Brick In The Wall: The Stories Behind Every Pink Floyd Song. (I may be misremembering the title slightly.)
This book is chock full of major errors. Unfortunately, I've thrown my copy away, so it is hard to give examples. I remember such things as, a picture of Roger Waters (wearing granny glasses and a scarf) captioned as "David Gilmour" or perhaps it was "Syd Barrett". I remember the section on Wish You Were Here had a big square of "corrected" text pasted in. I remember the book claimed (at it's time of publication, sometime before 1998) that Syd Barrett was blind from diabetes complications, and confined to a hospital. It referred to lyrics incorrectly. One passage I recall: Remember when you were young / Black, black holes in the sun. Yes, I'm serious. I stared at that blatant, idiotic, unforgiveable error 'til my forehead bled! The guy who wrote this book was clearly NOT a Pink Floyd fan, but merely interested in making money in a lucrative niche. (I suspect Floyd-related books sell nearly as well as the forty zillion Beatles-related books currently in circulation.)
Okay, so that's my point: ABITW:TSBEPFS, or whatever it's called, is an INVALID source and must be avoided. Agree? Disagree? How can we let this be widely known?
--63.25.25.233 (talk) 05:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi there! I agree wholeheartedly about the book in question. I have a first edition copy and it was called "Echoes: the story behind every Pink Floyd song" by Cliff Jones and it does indeed contain a photo of Waters labelled as Gilmour! Cliff Jones was the singer of a flash in the pan band called "Gay Dad" (!) and Gilmour got an injunction against him to stop any more copies of the book being published. Gilmour even offered to help him re-write it but Jones declined. As far as I knew this book had been long deleted but whatever. it is laughable and should not under any circumstances be cited as a source. Furthermore I have found numerous innacuracies where Fitch and Mahon's books have been cited. However as I don't own their books I shall reserve judgment and assume that there is another reason for this. NH 79.121.143.143 (talk) 22:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)14th Feb 08

Wow! I had no idea. Gilmour got involved?!? Fantastic -- what a guy! And yes, I remember the name Cliff Jones, now. That was the book.
I am a little concerned about the Fitch Pink Floyd Encyclopedia. For example, under "Summer '68", it credits Rick Wright with playing the trumpet, and that's the only reference to what sounds like an orchestra to me (or, at least, a whole brass section.) I thought it was understood that "Summer '68" made use of the same orchestra featured on the "Atom Heart Mother Suite".
Oh, but I think "Gay Dad" is one of the best band names ever.  ;) --63.25.31.42 (talk) 16:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Equally bad was the Karl Dallas book from 1987 entitled: "Bricks in the Wall" which has a photo of Gilmour on stage with Roy harper and labels it from the Unknown Soldier Tour. The picture is from at least five years before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.121.143.143 (talk) 06:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Ugh, the Karl Dallas book was horrible in so many ways! Mostly, because it's more about Karl Dallas's personality and feelings than any other topic. Any idea why Dallas thought it was relevant to compare Pink Floyd (unfavorably) to Frank Zappa so often? Then there were the pointless musical mistakes: Claiming the intro to "Scarecrow" consists only of the "black" keys -- hardly; it's in E pentatonic minor (maybe Karl's turntable was slow?) Or that the instrumental in "Matilda Mother" is on a B minor chord (Try F# Major!) Then there were mangled lyric quotes. Then again, inexplicable little things like

" . . . 'Who Needs Information', with its echoes of Lou Reed's 'Walk On The Wild Side'"

HUH?!? Having listened to both songs, oh, say, half a billion times, I can't think of ONE respect in which they are at ALL similar. Any ideas?!? But worst of all . . . page 172:

"I wonder if Roger remembers it was Dave who wrote so powerfully about being 'Comfortably Numb' in The Wall"

This was so egregious that Waters (who claims not to read books about PF, heh heh) actually remarked on it. Gilmour, of course, didn't write jack-shit about being "Comfortably Numb"; he wrote a lovely chord sequence that Waters took and put his own lyrics on. I mean, Gilmour doesn't even claim to have invented the title, much less the lyrics. It's offensive enough for Dallas enough to have made this basic mistake (to presume that Gilmour wrote any Wall lyrics), but what's worse is that he's doing it in the context of explaining why he thinks A Momentary Lapse of Reason is such a far better album than Radio KAOS. (Which is a fair enough opinion to have, but not if it's based on erroneous beliefs about Gilmour's accomplishments.)
So, yeah, I would definitely nominate Bricks in the Wall as an invalid source, except for the exclusive interviews contained therein. --63.25.31.42 (talk) 16:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] CD booklets get the lyrics wrong.

Seriously. I expect to get a lot of criticism for saying this, but the CD booklets often have incorrect lyrics. I know, that sounds unlikely, but it's true. One good example is "Take Up Thy Stethoscope and Walk". Follow the booklet while listening and see for yourself. I'm referring to the section that goes "Ah, me / Go, go / Please explain / You spoke / To me" The booklet has phrases like "Gruel ghoul, greasy spoon, dark doom", which are plausibly the kind of lyrics Waters would write, but cleary aren't being sung.
Another great example is the bridge to "Summer '68" -- You can see my comments on the Talk page there.
Then there's "Fat Old Sun": "A silver sound from a tongue so strange"? Damn! Even if the studio recording sounds ambiguous there, check out the live versions, such as the one on Atom Heart Mother Goes On The Road: It's "a TIME so strange".
But it's Meddle which might be the cake-taker: There's at least one error in the booklet for every song except "Echoes"!
It really is quite strange that such a lyric-oriented band would allow their CD booklets to have so many errors. I actually wonder if it's the absence of Roger Waters that makes the difference. One can imagine the ol' control freak, bless him, insisting on proof-reading before allowing the booklets to be printed! Anyway, these errors are bound to seep into Wikipedia articles here and there. What should we do? Should we do anything?
--63.25.3.92 (talk) 09:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


Well you should expect a lot of criticism! Where on "Stethescope" is there anything about "Ah, me / go go / please explain / you spoke / to me"??

When the song breaks out of the initial "You Really Got Me" riff, and descends to E. A lead guitar riff enters immediately after "Ah, me". (I ask you, where the hell does anybody sing the phrase "dark doom"?!?)

Summer '68 I'd always heard Charlotte Pringle's due (long before the words were published) because that's what Wright sings.

I understand hearing "childlike" as "Charlotte" . . . but "Pringles" for "bangles"??? (What would that even mean, anyway?)
Are you claiming you heard an apostrophe? ("Pringle's" and not "Pringles".)
And how could you have heard the word "due" when that word is indistinguishable from more common words like "do" or "dew", not to mention the word actually sung, "too"? Are you lying?
It's "childlike bangles, too" in the sheet music book published in 1980.

Likewise the lyrics to Fat old Sun are definitely "Tongue" and I've just listened to both the Album (particularly clear on the second verse) and also the live BBC broadcast from The Paris Theatre, London in 1970.

Now you're just being contrary. (If you hadn't gone on to do this needlessly insulting "I've buried Paul" stuff, I'd assume good faith.) Anyway, it's "a time so strange" in the sheet music, published 1980.

As for Echoes, I have just checked the lyrics in the book from the "Shine on.." box set. They are 100% accurate. I'm afraid you appear to be suffering from "I've buried Paul" syndrome.

Nobody's talking about "Echoes" OR the Shine On box set.

That is: a lot of people (mainly Americans) thought that Lennon was saying "I've buried Paul" at the end of "Strawberry Fields...". He was quite clearly saying "Cranberry Sauce". Even when Lennon categorically stated it was cranberry sauce, they wouldn't believe him!!. NH 79.121.143.143 (talk) 23:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)14th Feb 08

Can I ask you for a citation on that "mainly Americans" thing? Because, honestly, and with all due respect, I think you just pulled that out of your ass. Which tells us a lot about your responses here. --63.25.31.42 (talk) 16:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pink Floyd discography

I've been working a lot with Pink Floyd discography and i'm wondering why the page is crap. Can somebody help me with fixing the page.--Freedom (song) (talk) 18:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. You might bring up specific concerns on Talk:Pink Floyd discography. / edg ☺ ☭ 19:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] featured Article

Pink Floyd discography has been nominated for featured article. Is it possible i can get som help with the article. --Freedom (song) (talk) 19:24, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Publius Enigma

Some of us have been having fun with the Publius Enigma article. I've created a scratch pad to up the quality on the article to a possible feature status? Don't know...

In all honesty, I personally think that it is a ring in the nose that gets strung along, buuuuut.... it is very interesting.

So I appeal to anyone interested to have some fun, find some wiki-info and go to User:Pmedema/Publius Enigma and scratch it up. We've been keeping the discussion at Talk:Publius Enigma. If you remove anything please do so with a strikeout so that we can see what's going on. --Pmedema (talk) 13:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tribute Bands

I think an area which needs lots of work is tribute bands and deciding what to do with them. It needs to be decided whether or not tribute bands will be accepted and linked back to this project. If that's the case it opens the door for every single garage Pink Floyd cover band out there. There might be other options available.

But either way I think that if tribute bands are going to be associated with the project a master list of tribute bands along with links to their websites is in order. The reason for this is that individual tribute band pages are excessively difficult to manage. (See my comments on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Pink_Floyd_Experience) So a master list that's constantly edited and kept up to date is the best solution I can offer at the moment.

Again though the biggest problem comes when deciding what (if any) amount of significance the project gives to tribute bands. The article aforementioned -is- linked back to the project page, but it should be noted for future contributors that this tribute page enforcement (if you will) should be done in all similar cases or not at all.

Again in my opinion the bigger issue that needs to be dealt with is what to do with tribute bands of these sort. ---- Xfirestorm6 (talk) 18:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The list of Pink Floyd tribute bands article is already monitored with strictness and scrutiny. Unless a band can pass WP:BAND, WP:MUSIC it can't have an article on Wikipedia. And if it can't have an article on Wikipedia then it can't be added to the list of PF tribute bands. At one time the list included a great number of nn acts and spam links. Someone took the time to clean them all out and now it is up to the project to keep all red links and embedded spam links out of the list. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 23:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Oops I didn't see the list. :) That's actually a pretty great system, seems to be working well. I'll look further into the pre-existing one for different ways I can contribute personally. Xfirestorm6 (talk) 02:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fletcher Memorial Home

I added a link to Fletcher Memorial Home to explain Eric Fletcher Waters. It helps to explain the bitterness of the song. Pustelnik (talk) 11:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)