Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 57

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Help Wanted/Help Welcomed 2 Project page reorganization 3 Banner code now changed 4 Singer of the Month for June 5 Template:Infobox classical composer 6 Portal:Opera for June 2008 7 Infobox at Luciano Pavarotti 8 Assessment page 9 Plácido Domingo edit warring 10 Baritenor

Help Wanted/Help Welcomed

Hello! I am an opera lover and a relatively new WP editor. I recently began articles on four U.S. operas: A Guest of Honor, A Bayou Legend, Troubled Island and Lilith (opera). I will admit that WP-style writing/coding/referencing is something that I am still learning, so I would welcome all positive advice on improving these articles. Many thanks! Ecoleetage (talk) 20:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Project page reorganization

I've reorganized the project page - I hope in a logical way - consolidating all the guidelines into one section, and also putting the article and assessment section higher up the page. Please say if there are any problems or inconsistencies. Best. --Kleinzach 00:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Banner code now changed

For bot reasons, the banner code is now {{WikiProject Opera}} instead of {{Opera}}. Best. --Kleinzach 00:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Singer of the Month for June

Any ideas? My brain is somewhat fried after my 'opus' above.;-) Anniversary-wise, Margherita Carosio would have celebrated her 100th birthday in June. There's already a longish article, but it could use considerable improvement. Probably less famous, but also relevant is the French baritone René Bianco, who also would have 100 in June. There's a short article on him in the French Wikipedia. Depending on the decision for June's CoM, are there any role creators in their operas that could be done in parallel, e.g. for the operas of Niccolò Piccinni, Stephen Storace, etc.? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 13:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Now we are doing collections for CotM, it's a bit more difficult to identify singers that relate to the articles we are working on. I'm not sure I am going to have much free time this month, but I note that we still lack articles on many important German-rep singers of the 1920s and 1930s, names like: Marcel Wittrisch, Herbert Ernst Groh, Rudolf Bocklemann, Alfred Jerger, Karin Branzell, Maria Olczewska, Rosette Anday, Marta Fuchs, Lotte Schöne, Fritzi Jokl, Adele Kern, Emmy Bettendorf, Delia Reinhardt, Rose Pauly, Göta Ljungberg, Nanny Larsen-Todsen (listed from The Record of Singing). --Kleinzach (talk) 02:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

We've already had a load of German-rep singers a while back, albeit post-WW II. Could I make plea for these Puccini role creators who are all currently red linked. Given that this year is the Puccini 150th, it might be nice not have so many red-linked role creators in the articles.

Musetta: Camilla Pasini in The Opera Which Shall Not Be Named ;-)

Cavardossi: Emilio de Marchi and Scarpia: Eugenio Giraldoni (son of Leone Giraldoni) in Tosca

Ping: Giacomo Rimini (husband of Rosa Raisa), Pang: Emilio Venturini, and Pong: Giuseppe Nessi in Turandot

Rinuccio Giulio Crimi (in Italian Wikipedia) in Gianni Schicchi

Best, Voceditenore (talk) 08:34, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Puccini role creators would be very worthwhile. --Kleinzach (talk) 09:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

As tempus is fugit-ing and there have been no further suggestions, I'm going to add the Puccini role creators to the June SoM box. It won't go live for a couple of days, so there's still time if anyone has a sudden brainstorm. Voceditenore (talk) 06:24, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Template:Infobox classical composer

I have put this up for deletion (and blocking) see Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:Infobox_classical_composer. --Kleinzach (talk) 03:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

See the result here and subsequent discussion on the closing admin's user page. Apparently he believes there has only ever been one discussion (Composers Project /2007) about biographical infoboxes - despite six participants in the Tfd referring to multiple debates.--Kleinzach 03:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not surprised to see this debate coming again in about 2 or 3 months from today (probably less). It could be for composer or opera singer or conductor again, just like before. It won’t go away easily, trust me on that. Perhaps we should keep all the infobox related discussions and debates in one place for easy reference. We have discussed this for many times since the day I join Wiki. - Jay (talk) 10:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the links to all the past discussions here. There are 16 of them! --Kleinzach 12:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm coming into this maelstrom fresh. Suffice it to say, I did not find the language currently up on this project's page to be in any way supported by the discussions and the above-linked TfD, which I reviewed. The language asserted a consensus—I could only find controversy and disagreement. The language attempted an enforcement of a no-infoboxes-allowed policy by including "do not add an infobox" referral back to this project page, but such enforcement is counter to WP:OWN and as already stated, the project page's assertion of consensus is not substantiated by the various linked discussions. The well-reasoned TfD conclusion on the most recent infobox called upon project members to work toward building a custom infobox for the project that would encapsulate the pertinent data, but it appears that this recommendation has gone unheeded. There is no justifiable rationale for a no-infoboxes-allowed guideline, and the attempt to enforce one, without any basis in a real consensus, is disingenuous. Robert K S (talk) 22:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. That's factually wrong on a number of points. For a start you are in the wrong place. The Tfd referred to the Composers Project. The opera project does not have have a so-called 'no-infoboxes-allowed policy'. It has a guideline against biographical infoboxes. The reason for that is that there is no consensus for the introduction of misleading and inaccurate ancillary information on opera articles. I hope that's clear now. Meanwhile, welcome to the Opera Project, if you intend to contribute to articles on opera, please sign on and take part in one of the most productive middle-sized projects on WP. The project page has information about our current work. --Kleinzach 23:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the invitation, Kleinzach! I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. Obviously, I meant "biographical infoboxes" when I referred to "infoboxes" above. That biographical infoboxes should be proscribed because they have the capacity to introduce inaccuracies is prima facie silly and has been rebutted over and over in the discussions linked to. Placing tags on biographical opera articles that say "Do not add an infobox", and pointing to a page that fallaciously claims consensus on the issue of biographical infoboxes, does no service to the improvement of articles, some of which potentially could benefit from biographical infoboxes, which are standard across Wikipedia and have broadly achieved consensus, as pointed out in the TfD decision. I'm happy to work toward a reasonable guideline that offers good advice on the proper uses of infoboxes, but to blanket claim that they are prohibited on articles claimed by one or two Wikiprojects because once upon a time an infobox presented inaccurate or oversimplified information, and to claim that such a guideline has consensus when it is quite clear from all prior discussions that the issue is controverial, is overstepping. (I'll add that I'm a bit perplexed about the "on opera articles" bit of your bolded statement above. What special privilege is claimed by articles on the subject of opera? It seems to me that "misleading and inaccurate ancillary information" is undesirable in articles of any subject.) Robert K S (talk) 05:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a WP:POINT attack with the clear intention to disrupt. Robert K S has twice blanked a section of the project page. --Kleinzach 06:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, cut it out and discuss on the merits. If there is consensus on the issue you should be able to easily point to it somewhere in all those linked discussions. Robert K S (talk) 06:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Portal:Opera for June 2008

If you guys have preferences or suggestions for items below, please let me know or else I will find “June related articles” for each sections.

1. Selected Article
2. Selected picture
3. Composer of the month
4. Singer of the month

We only have 8 more days to go. Refer to "Archive" for the previous published. And, if you know any important/noted events or latest news in opera, add them in the "News" section. Thanks. - Jay (talk) 08:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Some ideas: Does the composer have to be major? If so Richard Wagner, if not Heinrich Marschner. Singer of the month: Julie d'Aubigny (aka La Maupin). Picture: how about the Roman amphitheatre where the Chorégies d'Orange opera festival takes place? (Maybe the new Oslo Opera House is also worth a picture and a few words?) --Kleinzach 08:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Good ideas, thanks. - Jay (talk) 09:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Yet more ideas...

Singer: Julie d'Aubigny is a good one because her story is so amazing. If you want to have a man this time (May was Birgit Nilsson), these two chaps, both of whom are quite interesting have June birthdays: Signor Brocolini and Robert Merrill.

Article: (June related) The Theater an der Wien opened on 13 June 1801. Operas which had their world premieres that month include: A Midsummer Night's Dream , Der Freischütz, and The Nose

Composer: Richard Wagner seems good to me. It's probably better to showcase really good articles than slavishly stick to the month-theme. Bizet was born in June, but the article is rather badly referenced at the moment - just a bunch of external links with no indication as to whether they served as sources for the article.

Photo: I love this close-up of the 'Papageno Gate' at the Theater an der Wien (not currently in our article just added it). The Oslo Opera House would be great too. There are zillions of spectacular photos of at Wikimedia Commons [1] (much better than ones in the English Wikipedia article all of which show it under construction).

And finally, a huge thank you to Jay for all your work on the opera portal. It's brilliant| I think it makes a big difference to the project. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 10:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

PS And while I have your attention, is everyone OK with the Puccini role creators above [2] for June SoM? We've got two votes for 'em and no other suggestions. Going once... going twice... Voceditenore (talk) 10:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

June selection - May articles have been archived.

1. Selected article - Theater an der Wien
2. Composer of the month - Richard Wagner
3. Selected picture - Papageno gate sculpture
4. Singer of the month - Signor Brocolini - Jay (talk) 05:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Infobox at Luciano Pavarotti

Northeastworcestershire and his alter ego Special:Contributions/88.111.150.94 who are in turn undoubtedly new socks of WJH1992 has returned to the Pavarotti article. I've reverted once but that's my limit. He immediately reverted me. On top of everything else the box is full of idiotic mis-information, and unreferenced claims. Help!;-) Best, Voceditenore (talk) 20:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I've now reverted once.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Assessment page

Now that the opera project template has been updated, I suggest that we put this information at the top of the assessment page:

Welcome to the article ranking page of the Opera WikiProject. This page gives information on assessing the quality of Wikipedia's Opera and related articles. The article ratings are used within the project to aid in recognizing excellent articles and identifying articles in need of further work.

The ratings are done in a distributed fashion through parameters in the {{WikiProject Opera}} talk page project banner; this causes the articles to be placed in the appropriate sub-categories of Category:Opera articles by quality

This is very handy. For example, by clicking on the "unassessed" box, you can easily find the opera articles that need to be assessed. And, by clicking on the "stub" box, you can find the articles currently assessed as stubs that should be reviewed now and perhaps assessed at the Start level or higher.

Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out, but we're not quite there yet. Although the template has been updated, a large number of articles with the Project banner still have the old template. A Bot has been working through these for the last couple of nights, but there's still quite a way to go. Once all the old templates have been converted, all articles that aren't Stubs or GAs or FAs or FLs will be given Start ratings. Kleinzach has been looking at those that have been Start-rated so far (actually quite a small proportion, just part of the Bot-testing process) and re-rating them if necessary. I don't think it would be a good idea for anyone to do anything at this stage, so please wait for Kleinzach or me to fire the starting-pistol. GuillaumeTell 21:41, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that the project here needs to talk about where we are with this and where we are going. There are 4,500 opera articles here so it's entirely different from an assessments scheme on a small project like Gilbert and Sullivan or Richard Wagner. Some editors had reservations in the past about assessments and we need to reengage with them. --Kleinzach 06:52, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

As you might guess, I'm still in support of rating. If we are going to be automatically rating articles as start, it may be worth bringing to the attention of editors known to edit opera article that the rating process is initially automatic. Otherwise, they may be insulted at start ratings on more thorough articles and react in some way (e.g. stopping editing for a while) which may not be in Wikipedia's best interest. Also as per other projects, we can solicit requests for assessments.--Peter cohen (talk) 09:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

GT and I have been having technical problems - in the continuing absence of SatyrTN - that's why we haven't announced anything. There isn't much point in discussing features that don't exist yet. --Kleinzach 10:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

At the WP:MUSICALS project, which is of similar size to the opera project, we were able to assess, or check the assessments of all the tagged articles within a few days, once we organized all the active members to take a few letters of the alphabet. As far as technical coding issues, Omtay, our coding guru, had previously offered to help with coding for this project if you need any additional features. What are the technical problems that you need help with? Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you but we are not geese, nor do we necessarily need to fill our kitchen with chefs however enthusiastic. Hmm. Sorry to sound exasperated, however there are a number of issues (and people) involved. I'm hoping they will all be sorted out but until then it's not really going to be helpful to say anything. Thank you. --Kleinzach 00:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC) P.S. WP:MUSICALS is only one third of the size of this project. --Kleinzach 03:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Plácido Domingo edit warring

His total repertoire is 130 (126 on stage and 4 recordings) and I am having problem with one user about this. His 130th "Tamerlano" was made on March but the user prefer to say "May" as in the latest.. I dont know. I need help.. besides, in the Talk:Plácido Domingo, this user said "Since I am Malaysian, I might not realized this". Wow.. this is new! - Jay (talk) 05:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

As I explained on Domingo's talk page, saying he "has 130 roles (as of March 2008)" suggests the possibility that he has had more between March and May. The part about you being Malaysian was a suggestion of the possibility that it is a subtlety in the language that you might not have picked up if English isn't your primary language. That's why the correction was needed, even if you didn't understand why.

As for the 130/126 issue, there is no official biography that counts the 4 recorded roles as part of his official repertoire. Thus, 126 should be the official number given, with an explanation that he has recorded 4 others. CH52584 (talk) 12:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Baritenor

I have nominated this article for deletion. Feel free to join the discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Baritenor.Nrswanson (talk) 23:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)