Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 16

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Contents 1 Il Signor Bruschino 2 Gwyneth Jones (opera singer) hagiography 3 What counts as evidence? 4 Offenbach 5 Category:One-act operas 6 Composer of the month for June (Part Two), July and August 7 Opera timeline

[edit] Il Signor Bruschino

I just added an article for this opera. Would someone please add it to the Rossini opera box and cast an editorial eye on it? Thanks! Best regards, -- Ssilvers 01:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Done - Jay 02:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gwyneth Jones (opera singer) hagiography

This article has been dominated by a fanatical admirer of Jones. I tried to tone it down bearing in mind the expectation of neutrality in Wikipedia and gave this as the description of the edit. I am not the first person to have done so. However, her admirer has reinstated "was much acclaimed in" in place of the neutral "performed" I had put. Given that her wobble attracted constant criticism since it developed in the '70s this sort of superlative is distinctly non-neutral.

What do people suggest instead of an undesirable edit war? I think it is quite a poorly put-together article anyway. Peter cohen 10:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps one or two of us can have a look at the article and see if we can sort things out? For a start the article should probably be Gwyneth Jones (soprano), and we might retire the infobox with the capition: Gwyneth Jones as (sic) Aegyptische Helena and Title Dame. It's good to avoid a one-on-one battle and tell us if you find something like this. Thanks. --Kleinzach 13:05, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

OK. I have had a go at toning it down etc. Over to you! --Kleinzach 13:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I think it flows a lot better now. I've now added a reference to the wobble. -- Peter cohen 14:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Fans of divas can get a bit demented, I find. One important thing to do is to eliminate, or at least judiciously reduce, the unfinished and unlinked Listcruft at the bottom of the Maturity section - see note on the Talk page.

I've now made various alterations. I can't believe that there wasn't a Recordings section, so I've shoved in a heading to that end, and may add a couple soon to get the ball rolling.

Slightly off-topic: Peter - could you possibly put a sentence or so on your User page so that your .sig here doesn't always appear in red? Maybe a Coll Vigorn userbox if nothing else? --GuillaumeTell 16:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, off topic complaint now dealt with. And thanks for helping make the hagiography now look like a proper entry. -- Peter cohen 18:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What counts as evidence?

I was searching the web for information on Karl Ridderbusch. (He is the only singer in the section on the project page asking for articles of whom I have several recordings and I think his Hagen and Fafner for Karajan certainly demonstrate the type of voice that deserves an entry.)

Immediately after his death the opera-l list included various allegations about Hitler-worship (see various messages listed on http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A1=ind9706d&L=opera-l&D=1). These include an eye-witness account claiming to have seen a swastika tattoo; and direct quotes from an email by American opera critic Paul containing verbatim quotes from a fax by Gottfried Wagner who was approached after the tattoo allegation emerged. http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A1=ind9706d&L=opera-l&D=1

The remaining allegations seem to be more friend-of-a-friend without the person making the accusations naming their sources. But would the

Would such a source be regarded as appropriate to reference in a wiki-article? Peter cohen 13:21, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Ridderbusch was born in 1932 so we are not dealing with a Nazi-period singer. There is a biography on the German WP which you might like to look at. I don't know any of the details here, but I don't think I'd want to quote Opera-L here. --Kleinzach 13:58, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. The German wiki page seems to be a rip-off of http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Ridderbusch-Karl.htm but I'll try to work out what extra information has been added and shall use his discography. -- Peter cohen 14:18, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

well, Karl Ridderbusch now exists and I've removed him from the project pages list of singers to do. One of you has already found his way to the new page. Others now welcome. -- Peter cohen 18:30, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Offenbach

Is anyone working on the Composer of the Month project this month? It appears that poor Jacques is quite neglected here on the English Wikipedia. I worked on a couple of the articles, but most of the info available is in French. No French speakers interested? -- Ssilvers 13:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

We have more Offenbach articles up than the French Wikipedia. There has been substantial work done on Offenbach in the last six weeks. Many of the articles are new. Much remains to be done, particularly adding synopses. --Kleinzach 14:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I certainly did not mean to criticize Kleinzach, who has been very productive, adding information to every article on Offenbach operettas and starting some new ones at the end of March and in the beginning of April. However, only G. Tell and I have participated in this project with him thus far (and Jay -- see below), and April is nearly over. Notwithstanding that French WP's offering of Offenbach is even weaker than EN WP's, Offenbach wrote dozens of successful operettas, and we only describe a small percentage. So, what I am saying, is, how can we rally the troops to this effort? Should we extend this Composer of the Month effort to May? Just asking. -- Ssilvers 22:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

We have composers for May already decided. I'd also caution against starting stubs without basic information, though I'd guess there are four or five other titles which would be viable. (We have already covered all the works with articles in Grove.) What we really need is for people to sit down and listen to the works already stubbed (with the libretti!) and write synopses. Illlustrations as ever are needed, information about recent productions and recordings as well. --Kleinzach 23:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I am working on Offenbach list of opera right now - gathering some info like opera year + type of opera such as bouffe or comique or Comédie à ariettes and the number of acts. I will add them later (arrange by year). Probably, I will add on the librettists too. I am not sure what is the suitable format, but I been thinking to do like below:-

• La Chanson de Fortunio (The Song of Fortunio) - (1861) Opéra-comique in one act, Libretto by Hector Crémieux and Ludovic Halévy.
• Monsieur Choufleuri restera chez lui (1861) - Opéra-bouffe in one act, Libretto by M. de Saint Rémy, E. L’Epine, Hector Crémieux and Ludovic Halévy
• Le Soldat magicien (The Regiment Magician) - (1864) Opéra-comique in one act, Libretto by Charles Nuitter and Etienne Tréfeu

By the way, about the list of work in Offenbach page, I am just curious. Are those list of his opera or including others such as his music works (which have got nothing to do with opera)? - whjayg (Jay) 15:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this for the biography page? Are you using the table in Grove or the websites? (BTW we don't use the sytem of capitalizing the second word, it's La chanson not La Chanson). --Kleinzach 23:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The list of "Works" in the Jacques Offenbach article appears to list just the operettas (and Tales), so maybe we should change the heading? Note that the third work you list above is shown as Le fifre enchanté, ou Le soldat magicien. It would definitely be helpful to put a date next to each. Personally, I agree that it would be good to give the number of acts, genre and librettist information, just the way you suggest. -- Ssilvers 22:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd recommend adding any missing works. I compiled the original list some time ago (a lot of typing!). It probably needs checking! However I don't think it's necessary to duplicate information that is in the individual articles. --Kleinzach 23:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Just a note to say that I had been hoping to be able to add synopses of Madame Favart and Barbe-bleue, because I've seen them both on stage and had kept the programmes. However, now that I've finally rooted out the programmes (from 1968 and 1969 respectively), I find that neither has a synopsis, as was not uncommon back in those days. For Barbe-bleue, I can paraphrase the Viking synopsis for now, and fill it out after the Buxton Festival performance. Alas, for Mme F, all I could do was improve the list of roles and add the list of numbers from Internet sources - frustrating, because I can remember a certain amount of the plot (and even a couple of the tunes) from the Durham University Light Opera Society's production. I'll also be able to do a bit more with La Périchole in due course. --GuillaumeTell 00:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I have completed the compilation of Offenbach’s opera - not 100%, it is darn hard to gather info about him. But from sources (internet and old “opera” bible belong to my dad-dug out from his garage), I believe the list of work listed in Offenbach biography (under “Works” ) are mixed – opera, ballet, orchestra and other music works. I do not want to amend or delete them (except if they are repeated with my list in “List of opera” ). Feel free to correct me if I am wrong or if the format is not right, it is really a big work since Offenbach info are not as easy to find compared to Verdi/Puccini/Handel (My favorite composers) But one thing for sure is, some of the titles in my list and “works” are the same, it’s just that some were written in different language (French / German). - Jay 04:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand. The complete list of stage works on the Offenbach page is from Grove. This is authoritative. Are you proposing to move half of it to the navigation box? I'd recommend keeping the complete list complete, or completing it if it is not. I'd also suggest keeping the navigation box for navigating. Or have I misunderstood? (If you don't have Grove a lot of good information is available from the websites linked from the biography page.) -- Kleinzach 05:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not talking about the navigation box. I was talking about the list the biography under in the "Work". Pls refer to Offenbach page - List of Opera, i just updated it. - Jay 05:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah I see you have started a new list above the old one. I was confused. But can you please not use Boosey and Hawkes capitalization! We use Grove. We don't capitalize the second word in the title. Also you will find Les folies Offenbach better for info than Boosey which is a commercial site.--Kleinzach 05:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I can change that, give me some time. I am actully doing translation works for wiki ms opera page too (by myself :( ,I dont have anybody in wiki ms volunteer to help ). - Jay 05:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I have made some corrections, also added dates etc. Hope this helps. Your new list is very worthwhile and I applaud your courage in starting it, but I think it's difficult to do it accurately without using Andrew Lamb's table in Grove. --Kleinzach

Thanks for doing the editing for me; I was just finished translating “Falstaff” and “Un ballo in maschera” to Wiki ms and I thought I want to edit “The opera list”, but you have done it. I know about the “Grove online”, but I am not a subscriber. Probably I will buy the dictionary, someday - after finish buying all Domingo's opera DVDs (planned to have my own library of Domingo's books, CD and DVD) - Jay 07:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

That is a great addition, Jay. I imagine more of the librettists could be blue-linked. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 12:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Please be aware of some subtle vandalism on this page - number of acts etc. being changed in the list of works etc. Please revert if it seems the page has been tampered with.

On another matter can anyone confirm the items listed in 'Other works'? Are they genuine? It would be better to avoid another 'Numa'. --Kleinzach 00:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I have added Offenbach's opera navigation box (only the blue links). Also added Meyerbeer and Gluck. No more red links. - Jay 05:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I've now finished the Jacques_Offenbach#List_of_stage_works. Must be my biggest contribution - eight dense screenfuls (100 works/date/genre/acts/librettists)! It took a week. (Would anyone like to turn it into a table - no. no, it's a joke!). About a quarter have been given English translations. (This isn't usual for lists which we usually keep simple.) Does someone want to complete them - or should we delete the ones we've got? --Kleinzach 07:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

As no-one has come forward to do the English translations - and they are of dubious value anyway - I've gone ahead and deleted them. --Kleinzach 23:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:One-act operas

This category only has 12 items at present. Some obvious works (e.g Cavalleria rusticana) are missing. Is it useful? After all we wouldn't have a category for three-act operas. Alternatively, should we try to make it viable by including all the one-act operas? --Kleinzach 23:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

It probably is a viable category, since the common expectation is that operas will be of more than one act. If you do decide to keep the category, I've added a list below of the one-act operas that have articles, but are not yet categorized as such. If you keep the category, you might also want to think about editing the current blurb for the category page which implies that one-act operas are primarily a 20th century phenomenon. Donizetti and Rameau wrote several, as did Mozart, and Rossini wrote one as well, just to name a few from the 18th and 19th centuries.

One-act operas (I'm assuming here that you would count operettas and opéra-ballets): Il sogno di Scipione, Bastien und Bastienne, Der Schauspieldirektor, L'abandon d'Ariane, Cavalleria rusticana, Bomarzo, Comedy on the Bridge, The Miserly Knight, What Men Live By, Elvida, Penthesilea, Der Zwerg, Eine florentinische Tragödie, The Devil Take Her, La scala di seta, Francesca di Foix, Mavra, Ba-ta-clan, Lucile, Daphnis et Eglé, Les sibarites, Zéphire, Volo di Notte, Le cadi dupé, La naissance d'Osiris, Les noces de Jeannette, The Bassarids, Le portrait de Manon, Rita, Le mariage aux lanternes, Pigmalion. - Voceditenore 09:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Here are some more: Iolanta, Djamileh, Erwartung, Bluebeard's Castle. Apropos 'relevance'... In 2004 Opera North did a highly successful season called “Eight Little Greats” - individual performances of short operas (90 minutes and under), designed to entice newcomers to the opera. Most of them were one-act, but there were also some two-act ones like I pagliacci and La vida breve. Nevertheless, the press at the time tended to refer to it as a season of "one-act operas". Opera North won several awards for “Eight Little Greats”. - Voceditenore 09:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

That's really useful. (I was sure there were lots of uncategorized examples.) What do other people think of keeping the category?

On a personal note, welcome to the Project! I've read a number of the excellent pages you've contributed (Erik Schmedes) etc. We'd all be delighted if you liked to sign on and join our discussions. --Kleinzach 10:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a viable cat. It's exceptionally easy to define objectively for a start. I was thinking of creating a category Actes de Ballet, but as far as I can tell only about eight works by Rameau would go into it. It's much better to have this broader category. --Folantin 10:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks for your kind words, Kleinzach! I tend to work only sporadically on Wikipedia, since I'm supposed to be working on two textbook manuscripts for my publishers (not on opera). So I don't think I'd be able to contribute regularly. But I'll try to nip in here once in a while and write the odd article when I'm trying to escape from the galley. I think my next escape will be Elena Sanz and Gemma Bellincioni - I hate seeing red links in articles I've written. -Voceditenore 14:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

And, of course, Capriccio, Daphne, Elektra, Feuersnot, Friedenstag, Salome, Das Rheingold and, arguably, The Flying Dutchman and, when I've written it, Blond Eckbert, the latter two being three act operas with one act versions or vice-versa. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peter cohen (talk • contribs) 10:41, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Great. As we are all in favour let's categorize all the examples! --Kleinzach 10:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Although it's probably best to leave the three-acters out of this category and explain their history in the articles themselves. --Folantin 10:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I've done a few, I'll add some more later. Useful category. Moreschi ^Talk 17:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Strauss one-acters done Peter cohen 18:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Could I put out a plea to anyone adding operas to this category (or any category): if the title of the article starts with, um, an article, such as "A", "The", "Le", "La", "Les", "Der", "Die", "Das", etc., please could you pipe the title so that the initial article is omitted. So, for La naissance d'Osiris, what's required is: [[Category:One-act operas|Naissance d'Osiris]]. That means that the opera will file under N and not under L, although the actual article title ("La naissance d'Osiris") will appear in the Category listing under N. Two other points here: first, the piped filing-title should always start with a capital letter, as lower-case initial letters are filed after upper-case Z; second, if there's a special character or accent early in the title, the piped filing-title should not contain the special character/accent, for a similar reason. So if "Zéphire" isn't piped to "Zefire", it would file after "Zwerg".

I've piped quite a few one-act operas already. If you look at the category, you'll see that there are still several titles beginning with French definite articles indexed under L, and several English titles indexed under T.

Hope this makes some sense! --GuillaumeTell 00:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes indeed. That's important. Maybe we should include your explanation in the category section on the main page? --Kleinzach 15:24, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally I should have mentioned default sort which only needs to be written once and obviates the use of a lot of pipes. It looks like this : {{DEFAULTSORT:Naissance d'Osiris}}. --Kleinzach 10:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I included that in my addition to the Categories section on the Project page (suggested by you above). I was initially just thinking of piping because some people who'd added the One-act operas category seemed not to have noticed that previously-existing categories for the opera had all been piped. Feel free to alter my text to make DEFAULTSORT more prominent. --GuillaumeTell 17:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks I have added a note about people and also given it a more promient heading. Hope that is OK. It is now item 14.12. --Kleinzach 22:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Composer of the month for June (Part Two), July and August

As there are a quite a few people around, can we nail down the composer(s) for next month? Candidates: Francesco Cavalli, Mozart, Joseph Haydn, Paul Hindemith, Marc-Antoine Charpentier, Johann Strauss II or Rossini individually, or Salieri, Sarti, Piccinni and Sacchini as a twin/triplet/quadruplet. Or . . . ? -- Kleinzach 11:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Of the above, I'm (operatically) interested in Mozart, J Strauss and Rossini. But practically all opera composers and their operas could do with more attention. So much to do, so little done! --GuillaumeTell 00:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

How about Mozart, since you list him first? --Kleinzach 14:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I've now put WAM forward. --Kleinzach 02:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I've been charging through Verdi putting in the opera project banner. I noticed there were four or five minimal stubs in there (which I didn't banner). If people know those works, then it's worth having a Verdi month. -- Peter cohen 12:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am sure there is a lot of work we can do on Verdi. How about July? What do other people think? --Kleinzach 13:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

For July, maybe Verdi or Salieri, Sarti, and Sacchini? Or Verdi for July and that lot for August? Moreschi ^Talk 13:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

We have three slots above, so we can fix August now if we like. --Kleinzach 13:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Again a personal point of view. Verdi for July would suit me very well. Of the 11 operas that don't have a detailed synopsis, I have programmes for 6 and recordings of another two. It also seems to me that we could reasonably easily work some of the later operas up for GA or FA status (consigning Leo Melitz and his synopses to the bin as we do so). I would also be happy for the minor Italians to be done in August, as I'll be away a lot then and I know nothing about any of them except Salieri (and most of that comes from Amadeus!). --GuillaumeTell 15:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion for June composer: Giuseppe Verdi - He is the notable romantic composer but there are still many stubs in his opera list. I'd say the best opera composer, well at least to me. - Jay 14:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Good. I think there is agreement for Mozart in June, Verdi in July and Salieri, Sarti, and Sacchini in August. I'll add them above. --Kleinzach 22:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for putting Verdi on the list. He deserves that. I don’t think it is so difficult to find his works. I went to a book store last week; found a thick book about Verdi’s opera + complete librettos + images (can’t remember the title). Perhaps I could help with Verdi’s - Jay 01:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. Incidentally all 19th century pictures should be out of copyright, so there's lots of scope to add images. --Kleinzach 03:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opera timeline

Buenas tardes! I've designed a opera timeline in the spanish wikipedia. It has been a hard work, specially regarding the design. Suggestions are very welcome. I have some doubts and maybe here someone can help me to fill some gaps, for example: any noting french operas during classical period; is Il barbiere di... an classical period opera; is it woth noting Robert le diable; beyond Wozzeck, something very important to note... The problem with this timeline is that it's very important to choose the most important information (i don't know how to put one hundred operas here). Please, suggestions and comments are very, very welcome. If someone doesn't do it before, i'll translate the timeline to english very soon. Best regards, --Jdiazch 14:21, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

That's a great undertaking. Congratulations. I hope having a timeline will mitigate against simplistic ideas still current on WP about the 'classical era' 'romantic era' etc. Nevertheless I have to say that I find the type very difficult to read because of the intersecting columns/lines. Perhaps it might be better with boxes? --Kleinzach 23:53, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

It's certainly a very good idea. Certainly putting the names of the operas into boxes should help, and it would be good to have more of them, too (Monteverdi looks very lonely up at the top of the left-hand column!). I'm a little distressed to see that opera ended with Turandot and Wozzeck - what about the later works of Strauss, plus Britten, Henze, Adams et al? --GuillaumeTell 13:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Another question is what dates to use. With Rheingold appearing after, Tristan und Isolde the sort is presumably by first performance date. But is composition date more useful? And the choice of national columns too is interesting. Works by Handel in Italian appear in the rest of the world column because they were premiered in England. Works by Mozart appear in the Italian column because of the language. Aida remains in the Italian colum despite it's being composed for performance initially in Egypt. --Peter cohen 15:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I notice that some other options for timelines can be seen at Category:Graphical timelines in music. --GuillaumeTell 17:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)