Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mortal Kombat/Archive 2

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archives

Current discussions
/Archive 1 (Feb '06 - June '06)
/Archive 2 (July '06 - December '06)
/Archive 3 (December '06 - recent)

1 New Member Introduction
2 General discussion

New Member Introduction

EVula here. I've been doing lots of work on the character pages for a while, so I figured I'd go ahead and sign up. EVula 22:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I love the MK games. I'll do what I can. CardinalFangZERO 07:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Big fan of MK, love Scorpion & Smoke Lil'Layzie-One

Hi everybody, Master Spider here. Before joining this project, I also contributed MK articles a lot, so I joined now for contributing more. I will do everything to contribute.--Master Spider 15:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The story behind all the fighters is what intrigues me the most. Hopefully my knowledge will come in handy. --SaturnYoshi 04:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I played MK all my childhhod. I hope i can help.--Kung Lao 23:57, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Khaos from MKOutworld.net and MKOnline.. Here to help..

A lot of my edits have been for MK pages, so I'll join the project. Will help out where I can. RobWill80 14:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm Aphrodite from MKONline, and I have started the sections on the Kombatant's special abilities.

General discussion

The Mortal Kombat storyline

I Just did some major updating and improvements, generally cleaning up The Mortal Kombat storyline, take a look and suggest any further improvements.

OK. And you are who again? Please sign your comments with four tildes "~". SilentRage 17:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Gah sorry, I usually forget to do that -_- The Haunted Angel 21:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that's helpful. OK, I just linked to that article in the Mortal Kombat template, but I really don't think it will last, as it's not really encyclopedic. I also moved this discussion to the top, where it should be. (On a side note, to anybody in this WikiProject, this article is too big and something should be done about it.) ^---SilentRAGE! 10:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Userbox template

Just a heads up, I made a template for project members to put on their user pages. Check out {{User WPMK}}. EVula 17:57, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler tags

Hi everyone. I'm not a member of this WikiProject, but given that it -- along with all the other video game WikiProjects -- is technically a subsidiary of the overall Computer and Video Games WikiProject, I thought I'd bring to your attention this proposal for the deletion of spoiler tags from all computer and video game articles. An in-depth explanation of the reasoning behind this can be found on the discussion page I've linked to (and a lot of additional discussion on the matter can be found in the places linked to from there, such as the spoiler warning talk page and this archive from it, in which a motion to contest the spoiler warning's Guideline status was successfully put forth), but to briefly summarize the reasoning behind this:

"In no way do [spoiler tags] actually contribute to the encyclopedia's purpose of being informative about subjects on a comprehensive level, and, in actuality, they're redundant of the fact that this is an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia is defined as a comprehensive source of information on a variety of subjects. This is...not a fansite or blog. Also, given that Wikipedia is not censored -- and, again, given that it is an encyclopedia -- what encyclopedic purpose are spoiler tags serving? The answer is 'not a single one.' We already have a spoiler warning accessible from the bottom of every page of this encyclopedia. Wikipedia need not constantly reiterate that it is an encyclopedia."

If all of you could drop by and weigh in on this, we'd all appreciate it. We really feel like we're working toward the betterment of video game articles on Wikipedia -- and the betterment of Wikipedia as a whole -- by pushing for the removal of this unencyclopedic content. Thanks for your time. Ryu Kaze 22:12, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Mortal Kombat WikiProject UserBox

I made this. You can all add this to your profiles if you wish:

MK	This user is a member of WikiProject Mortal Kombat

Add it by putting this on your userpage: {{User:SilentRage/MKUserBox}} Any suggestions on how it should be changed? I know that we can't put copywrited material in Userboxes. SilentRage 02:01, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

There's already one at {{User WPMK}}. I prefer that one to this one, but I'm terribly biased (I made the other one). EVula 17:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

When did you do that? I didn't even know there was one already made. Anyway, we need to come to a consensus one which one should be used. I kinda like the style of yours, but I don't like the colours. I like my colours more. Also, I edited mine so that all people who have it on their userpage, will be under a catigory. Plus, I'm not to sure if we are the "Mortal Kombat WikiProject", or the "WikiProject Mortal Kombat" (which sounds stupid to me). SilentRage 00:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that I would rather have the link on mine be black, and yours may get deleted soon because of the whole dillema going on right now with userboxes. You need yours to be located in a sub-page of a userpage, which is why we should use mine. SilentRage 00:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, you are the only one that uses {{User:SilentRage/MKUserBox}}, as opposed to eight that use {{User WPMK}}. I made mine four days prior to yours, and added it to the Templates section the same day. According to WP:GUS, WikiProject affiliation userboxes can stay in template space, meaning that there is no relevant dilemma. Please don't replace "my" userbox with "your" userbox (for lack of better phrases), but feel free to add "yours" to the Template section that I linked to above. EVula 20:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

New Khameleon and Chameleon Images

I recently uploaded official Midway art for Khameleon and Chameleon, and wanted to get your opinion of how they should be placed in the topics, if at all. I'm thinking top of the Character Box, but I don't just want to throw out any of your guys' images.

Are these really official? I know many fan representations of Chameleon present him as sort of a "rainbow" ninja, but I had no idea that Midway actually ever seriously intended him to be depicted that way. Where did these images come from? I can't think of a reason why both a picture of Chameleon and Khameleon would be put in the same place somewhere since they don't even appear within the same game. MarphyBlack 02:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

They were from an old EGM article, comparing the N64 and PS versions of Trilogy. These were scattered amongst about a half dozen other official Midway arts, so I don't think they were mockups. The S 02:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I placed both images in their respective character article character boxes. The only image I replaced was Khameleon's old character box picture, but that happened to be somewhat redundant since it just depicted her MKT versus pose which was shown in another image in the same page already. MarphyBlack 03:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

All righty then. Thanks for inserting them. I'm going to go ahead and delete the images from this Talk page to save space. The S 17:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Moving MK character infoboxes to a subbox

See Template:General CVG character and Category:General CVG character subboxes. Since most of the other major 3D fighting game series are represented, and in an effort to unify/decruft the MK character pages, I think we should try and modify the current MK char infobox to be a subtemplate of the general CVG infobox. A quick example:

Liu Kang

Game series	Mortal Kombat
First game	Mortal Kombat
Voiced by	Ed Boon

If nobody has any objections, I think after a decent MK subtemplate is created, the current one should be retired in favor of the general CVG one.
As far as what should go in the subtemplate, I think the current one is a bit overlong - what I'm thinking would be relevant statistics are in-universe, such as species/origin, styles/weapons, alignment, and portrayers (out-of-universe). IMO age, height and weight are irrelevant, and game appearances can be found at List of Mortal Kombat characters. Virogtheconq 21:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting we replace {{Mortal Kombat character}} with this one, right? If so, I'm strongly opposed. Why should we stick to the general CVG infobox, when the one we have currently is better? (in my opinion, the MK pages have the best-looking infoboxes on the whole damn wiki) Let's just trim the existing one back, rather than switch over to a bland template (and on that front, I agree with you about age, weight, and height). EVula 21:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm of the opinion that most CVG articles should have some sort of unified template. The last part of the template ( |inuniverse= ) allows for the inclusion of a unique subtemplate that would include all the relevant MK info - basically the current template minus the content that's already in the CVG template (I think the current template information is pretty good, but making it into a subtemplate would be better in the long run - formatting is something that can be argued ad nauseum). Eventually someone from the CVG wikiproject will probably want to modify the MK pages to fit in with the other fighting games, so I figure it's probably best to at least raise the point now rather than suddenly have it come to a head later. Virogtheconq 21:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

But... the current one is just so damn pretty! I don't see why various video games should have the same style box as other games (I mean, I can see the argument, I just don't agree with it). I'd say let's trim the existing infobox for now, and cross the CVG-standardization bridge when we come to it, rather than assume that we'll have to adopt another style. EVula 05:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I won't do anything to the articles unless some other members weigh in, though I may experiment with a subtemplate (orphan, of course) if the will strikes. Virogtheconq 23:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of attemping to have complete consensus on all decisions, I just want to add that I like the way they currently are. SilentRage 00:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Stepping down

I'm sure that those of you present when this was first organized may have noticed that I haven't really edited any MK pages in well over a month. Reasons are manifest and many; a new job, a new relationship, and now moderator duties on MKOnline (if I'm online, I'm usually there now). I just don't have the time necessary to put into this, and so I am effectively leaving the project. I'm sure I'll try and keep a few articles clean once MKA comes out, but until then, when I'll make as much time as possible for MK, I simply can't devote it. It seems that this project is in good hands anyway, and I trust it will remain that way for a long time.

Catch you on the flip side, folks. I'll be watching. Shadaloo 05:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to see you go. I know for a fact that you've put more work into this as I have, and probably more than many others. After all, you're the reason we're all here. However, there are times when life has more important precedence than online projects. Take care, and I'll drop you a line every so often at MKO. The S 17:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Arenas

Lil'Layzie-One (talk · contribs) has created List of Mortal Kombat arenas. While he has done a fine job of gathering up all the arenas in the various MK games, and I've helped to expand a couple of them, there is much more work to be done. Specifically, we need to document what games these arenas appeared in, what hazards exist, and additional (real-world) history for each (for example, Nexus Arena). I'd love to do more, but my knowledge of the games comes primarily from MK3 and Deception. EVula 18:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't actually think the arenas article is encyclopedic (it's more of a game guide thing), but I won't argue that point. Several of the game articles have descriptions/lists of the arenas involved; if this article is to stay, then you'll probably want to merge the information into the main article and add the {{main|List of Mortal Kombat arenas}} tag to the top of the arenas subsections, and turn the subsections into lists. Since several arenas span multiple games, it might be useful to turn the list in the main article into a table, but there might be too many singular arenas for that to be effective. Virogtheconq 18:44, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the arenas article as it stands right now isn't particularly encyclopedic, but I'd like that to change (I've been going through the article, attempting to rewrite sections to bring them into a more encyclopedic light). That's a good idea about the main tag, I'll have to do that. And yeah, I think the list is too unwieldy to put into a table; plus, I'd like to document more than just what games they appear in (one of the things I've been doing is documenting the hazards), which couldn't be addressed as well in a table (especially since several features appear in only some games, such as MK3's two-tiered arenas vs. Deception's expansive arenas). I think once more verifiable history and real-world information (not just in-game anecdotes and commentary) is added to some of the arenas, the article will be of encyclopedic quality. EVula 19:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Even though I have nothing personally against it, I wouldn't be surprised if the article is tagged for "cruft" in the future. A nice point to add to the article as it stands, however, would be a little section that explained the most noticable differences between an arena in each of its appearances. The article is very terribly written in either case (I noticed some POV and first-person references).The S 19:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

*nods* I agree completely about noting the differences in appearance, and that's something I've started doing (for example, The Dead Pool). The problem with that is that most of the arenas don't appear more than once. This problem might change with Armageddon, though (for example, Goro's Lair from MK1 is back, as is the subway from MK3). And yes, it is poorly written; Lil'Layzie-One is a very new editor, and hasn't quite gotten the hang of what is and isn't appropriate for Wikipedia. I've been doing a lot of clean-up, but I'm nowhere near done; that's why I've posted this note, to get other members of the project involved. EVula 20:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I just wanna start of by saying thanks to EVula, for the help hes been giving, i'm also working hard on this project of arena's as well, i know i might not have done much, but i'm only one man, and just like everyone i'm not perfect, but with the more help, the more better this article would be, i've been plugging in the games and scanning the arenas and looking for the details i might have missed, i've got stuff for Reptiles lair, and a few others, and its no secret that i'm a new comer, so i ask just for some help on this, thank you. ~~Lil'Layzie-One

I just did some massive formatting of the article, and laid out some styling guidelines on the talk page. I believe that this is a step in the right direction for the quality of the article. EVula 05:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Atleast its getting somewheres right? Lil'Layzie-One

Movelists

A lot of characters' movelists are absent, especially MK:DA and MK:D characters. I haven't play these games, so can anybody can work on these? Master Spider 10:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

IMO, we shouldn't even have movelists in the articles - see WP:NOT. Virogtheconq 13:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Maybe keeping the Fatalities could be a good idea, but moveslists are complete cruft. The S 17:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

But there is a section named "Moves" or "Memorable moves" on some character articles, and anybody didn't remove them, or said that they shouldn't been there? Master Spider 17:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, even if we took them out anon editors would just put them back in. Taking them out isn't exactly high on my to-do list of priorities for these articles. Virogtheconq 05:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think that having a character's memorable moves in their article is cruft; for example, Sub-Zero and Scorpion are both immediately identified by their moves. The distinction is decidedly less clear-cut for the less well known/popular characters (like Dairou). EVula 05:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Lao-Goro

If after the slash, Goro and Kung Lao shook hands and were even, does Goro still need to be in his enemies list?-- Sorry, forgot to sign in. :)

I take it you're referencing Kung Lao's Mortal Kombat Gold ending. Well, for one thing, that ending may not have been canon. Subsequently, I believe he's listed as his enemy on the official MK Deception virtual trading cards. The S 02:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I just checked, and he isn't. Just Liu Kang and Johnny Cage. EVula 02:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, nothing much in MK can be considered canon, since almost every game contradicts the previous one. But should we change it? --Kung Lao 20:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Er, you're wrong. The various endings more often than not aren't considered canon, as they often contradict each other (they are usually "that character"-centric, which makes sense; who would want to beat the game as a character, only to find out that someone else just did what you did and you died in the process?), but the MK series itself has a canon. The endings aren't known until the next game. There's no reason to change anything based on the evidence provided in this discussion topic. EVula 20:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Kung Lao is listed as Goro's ally, yet Goro is listed as Kung Lao's enemy Which article should we fix?--Kung Lao 22:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Moving Hotaru to Hotaru (Mortal Kombat)

I just moved Hotaru to an MK-specific article and turned the original into a disambiguation page. Any help changing all the links would be appreciated. Virogtheconq 06:25, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm attempting to help out, but I don't think the page is updating correctly. I changed the template, which as far as I can tell, was the only thing linking most of those pages to Hotaru's article (since a simple Find in the browser for "Hotaru" turns up nothing in the actual article). Grrr. Right now, I'm concentrating on fixing the links on all the not-directly-MK-related pages. EVula 17:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, not sure what the deal was, as I left and came back and it was fine (I have the sneaking suspicion that I was being rather dumb and was looking at what linked to the MK article... d'oh!). Regardless, I've changed all the links. EVula 19:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Li Mei and Onaga

In Li Mei's and Onaga's articles, it is written that Onaga and Li Mei are allies. Her Deception ending states it too, but it won't be revealed until Armageddon. Then, why it has been said on these articles? Master Spider 14:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

A lot of anonymous editors keep on adding it back in. IMO, the allies/enemies shouldn't even be in the infobox. Virogtheconq 01:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll watch the articles and remove it whenever I can. The Haunted Angel 23:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

MK Gold

The MK:Gold page needs a screen shot of actual gameplay. Can anyone get one?--Kung Lao 22:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

John Vogel

Hey, guys, first time I've left a message here in forever. Just thought I'd let you know there's a potential edit-war waiting to happen over on the John Vogel article. Biased though I may be towards my version of the page, I don't quite see why deleting useful information and presenting Vogel as a character rather than as a human is a positive thing. Cheers. --L T Dangerous 23:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Not to worry, it's been sorted now. Ta. --L T Dangerous 09:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Triming the infobox

I'm pushing for some of the fields in the MK character template to be removed. I'd like to get some feedback before just up and doing it, though; drop a line at Template talk:Mortal Kombat character#Removing fields if you could. Danke. EVula 20:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Merging MK GBA ports with main articles

Hi. I'd like to propose the merging of the MK Advance and MK: Tournament Edition articles, with the titles they're based on - Ultimate MK3 and MK: Deadly Alliance. The GBA articles are very short, and contain similar info to the main articles. I think they are just ports by another name, which can be described in a "Ports" or "Console differences" section. The only issue that I know of is the console exclusive characters in MK:TE. Let me know what you think. Thanks. RobWill80 13:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a great idea, when I first saw the articles and read about the games, I thought that they were basicly just different versions of the originals, they even have the same front cover. The articles are indeed short and it would probably be much better suited within the 'parent' articles. All they are are updates, and will probably fit better as you suggested. The Haunted Angel 16:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I whole-heartedly support this idea. The port articles don't have much in the ways of actual content; simply create a sub-head for the games, complete with infoboxes, and comment on the changes.

Should Deception and Unchained be merged as well? If so, it would probably be best if we waited until after Unchained is released, as it is still in development. I'm just throwing that suggestion out there. EVula 17:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Merging MK: Unchained with MK: Deception (after it's released) sounds like a good idea. RobWill80 18:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, there's one more thing I should ask before going further. Referencing the GBA games in prose is fine, but should something be done with shorter links (The main MK template, infoboxes, the list of characters, etc.)?

Should the GBA games be treated as separate from the originals, or as part of the originals? As an example, Should Sareena's infobox say she was in MK: Tournament Edition, or something like MK: Deadly Alliance (GBA MK:TE only)? RobWill80 13:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It should say that she is just in MK:TE, not DA, that's what I think at least. The Haunted Angel 13:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I think I'll leave that particular link issue for another time - It's only just occurred to me that any list of character appearances is only accurate to a point. They don't mention character restrictions in 16-bit or handheld ports. Too much for me to deal with in one go! Anyway, if there are no objections, I'll get started on merging the GBA articles. RobWill80 14:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Fine with me! The Haunted Angel 14:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't like it. The article is too cramped now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Buzda (talk • contribs)

The Trivia sections can be moved so they start below the infoboxes, but I think it will create too much White space. RobWill80 17:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Character moves and Fatalities

I know that this has been discussed before, but I have to mention that I dislike the areas in character articles that have 'memorable moves' and 'fatalities'. One could argue that Wikipedia is not a game guide, but even if we did allow it, something has to be done about some of this. I mean, we have the section 'memorable moves'. Now under more then one article, it looks as if they are listing all of that characters moves. Take a look under Reptile for an example. Also, does the term 'memorable moves' sound a bit POV to you? Some of those moves no one will remember, and in the end there will be an argument saying

"This move is memorable!"

"It's not memorable to me!!!"

Or something along the lines. Personally, the only moves I would count as memorable would be Scorpion's spear, Sub-Zero's ice, Liu Kang's Bicycle Kick or Flying Kick, and Raiden's dive, but this is purely because these are arguably the most famous MK characters, but even then it's a bit POV, and the next person may not find them as memorable.

Next bit, the fatalities. I am fine leaving the fatalities where it is (although I wouldn't be grieved if I saw it go), but what I want to change is the names. How the hell did people get the names for some of these? Take Shao Kahn's Shaolin Monks Fatality. There is no name mentioned for this throughout the whole game, and all of a sudden someone has given it the name 'Final Judgement'. It is a fitting name, but it is speculative and purely made up. I think every character article has Fatality names on them, names that have appeared out of no where. I ask that we remove these and leave the name as something different, such as the game it appears on. Anyway, I have a Guitar Lesson to go to, so I'll finish this rant when I get back. The Haunted Angel 09:11, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a bit of a problem, so I'll respond to the easier part first: the Fatalities. Using the game's title is fine with me, but I'd suggest looking in official game guides (if anyone has any), and see if they give names to the Fatalities (e.g. the one I have for MKT does).

Now, on to the special moves. For a start, I agree that anything described as 'memorable' is POV. So, if nothing else, the title needs sorting out. However, I'm not too sure about the 'moves' section itself. I think it would be good to say something about how a character behaves and what makes them stand out. So, I wouldn't want the section to be removed completely. All I can think of (I'm sorry, but I haven't had any coffee today) is removing the lists, and try to describe a character's abilities in a paragraph or two. RobWill80 16:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Those sections have been bugging me for a while, too. Here's my proposal: let's use Liu Kang as the testing ground for a new standardized method of article organization. In that vein, I've done a lot of trimming to the Kang article.[1] Here's my proposal:

Bunch all fighting and finishing moves into one section, "Combat characteristics"
Remove the moves that have only appeared in a single game, opting instead for ones that have appeared numerous times (such as Kang's flying kick). For characters introduced in Deception... well, all their moves are instantly notable. Not optimal, I admit, but we can trim them back once Armageddon is released.
Remove the finishing move names (except to explain what the move is, such as the Brutalities and Animalities).
Remove finishing moves that only appeared once (especially those found in Shaolin Monks).
And, as per that edit, remove any reference that the character was inspired by Superman, apparently. :)

Sound good? I think the Kang article looks better like this, and clustering all the similar information together helps it look more like an honest-to-God encyclopedia article. EVula 16:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

That article does look a lot better, and the guidelines that you've drawn up are good. But we still need to keep tabs on those sections, as someone else will think that other moves are notable. If we only include multi-game moves, I'd suggest calling them something like 'signature moves', instead of 'notable moves'. RobWill80 17:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, "signature moves". I knew there was a better phrase, but couldn't for the life of me think of it. :) EVula 17:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I just want to add that I don't believe brutalities should be listed as a notable/signature move since (essentially) all characters have it and they appear precisely identical to each other, regardless of who does it. MarphyBlack 18:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The Liu Kang article looks far better now, although I agree with Black that the Brutality section should be taken out. Also on the subject, I will change it to say Signature moves instead, it does sound much better. We can begin working through other characters in this format, I will probably start doing this later on today. We should probably leave the characters that have only appeared in one game (Sareena, Deception only characters, Gold only characters etc.) until Armageddon is released as EVula said. I have also changed the fatalities part from 'Notable' to 'Reccuring'. This could also be done with the moves section, but I think 'Signature' will do fine. The Haunted Angel 11:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

AAGGHHH!!!! Well it took me a couple of hours but I have finally gone through all character articles and changed them to the new format.... Bah, my contributions can do the talking. ~ The Haunted Angel 22:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

For the record: "Recurring" is spelled with one "c" and two "r"s. I went ahead and changed them all. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to add to my contributions. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 08:40, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh god, I knew something like that would happen. I was sure that I spelt it right the first time... but after I did it once, I just kept copy and pasting it over and over =\ Sorry for giving you so much work man! ~ The Haunted Angel 08:57, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

That's fine, it wasn't really that hard to do. Interestingly, it was spelled correctly in Ashrah's article. It's a simple mistake that anyone could have made. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 09:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

It was spelled correctly in Ashrah's? Hmm, how odd! Anyway, thanks for helping out with my inability to spell! The Haunted Angel 10:48, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I fixed it, but then had some connection issues and wasn't able to fix the rest. Virogtheconq 15:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Well then, I guess it wasn't spelled correctly on Ashrah's page. Oh, well, it really wasn't a problem for me to fix them all. Better luck next time, Virogtheconq. ;D -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 16:16, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been going through some of the character articles and I have a question in relation to how these moves/fatalities should be written/formatted. After the move name, should there be a colon or a dash? For example, in some articles, the move names and fatalities are written with a dash like this:

Baton Trip – Stryker uses his baton to trip the opponent.

However, in other character articles, there's a colon after the name, like so:

Green Net: Cyrax fires a green net from his chest which ensnares the opponent for a free hit.

There are also a few cases where the colon is not written in bold with the rest of the move name, as such:

Razor-Rang: Jade throws a razored-boomerang at her opponent.

Which style should we use throughout all articles? MarphyBlack 02:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I like the Cyrax version. The "ampersandndash;" thing is kind of annoying. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 02:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

From a technical standpoint, the Jade version is "correct", as the colon isn't part of the move name. I agree with SaturnYoshi that the – bit can get obnoxious. EVula 15:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Right, so should we adopt the "Jade version", then? -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 19:22, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing so. EVula 19:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Sweet. But do we really need to list all the games those moves are from? -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 20:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think we need to keep the game list so that we can tell what games the moves are from, to determine whether or not the moves are 'recurring' or not. The Haunted Angel 21:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Abbreviations

Okay, I went through all the articles and fixed this problem. However, in the process, I noticed another discrepancy. The way the names of the MK games are abbreviated inside the parenthesis is not consistent. For example, for Deadly Alliance, Deception, and Armageddon, I see the abbreviations sometimes written like this:

(MK:DA, MK:D, MK:A)

However, I've also seen these abbreviations commonly written without the colon, like so:

(MKDA, MKD, MKA)

There's also some uniformity problems with how Mortal Kombat Gold is abbreviated. Some articles write MK Gold, while others simply use MKG. What abbreviations should we stick with throughout all the articles? MarphyBlack 00:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

"MKG" is a valid abbreviation for Gold, as there is no additional punctuation in Mortal Kombat Gold. For games with a colon, the first example ("MK:DA", "MK:D", "MK:A") is the proper method.

Here's the abbreviation scheme I've been using in my head:

Mortal Kombat -> MK1
Mortal Kombat II -> MK2
Mortal Kombat 3 -> MK3
Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 -> UMK3
Mortal Kombat Advance -> MKAdv (though I've never had to use this one)
Mortal Kombat Trilogy -> MKT
Mortal Kombat 4 -> MK4
Mortal Kombat Gold -> MKG
Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance -> MK:DA
Mortal Kombat: Tournament Edition -> MK:TE
Mortal Kombat: Deception -> MK:D
Mortal Kombat: Unchained -> MK:U
Mortal Kombat: Armageddon -> MK:A

That said, I think these abbreviations should only be used when we need to list several games together (such as the moves sections). For the regular article text, we should stick with either the full name or just the specific word (ie: Deception, Armageddon). The "abbreviated MK + full name" should be used just in the infobox, rather than the body of the article (for example, Darrius' infobox states that he appears in MK: Deception and MK: Armageddon and uses gauntlets in MK:D, while the intro copy states that he made his first appearance in Mortal Kombat: Deception). (did that make sense? In looking over it, I'm not sure it even made sense to me...)

I'll add an abbreviation section to the style guide once we find something we all agree on. EVula 04:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Should Mortal Kombat II's abbreviation use roman numerals as in the game name (MKII)? MarphyBlack 11:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Personal preference says no. I did a couple of Google searches; "MK2" gets 99k hits[2] vs. "MKII"'s 30k.[3] I like keeping the abbreviations nice and short; as it is, Advance's abbreviation just kills me. :) EVula 14:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I simply wrote MK Advance at Rain's page. MKAdv is good for me.Master Spider 13:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I strongly think that the original Mortal Kombat should be either MKI or MK, and the second should be MKII, rather then using actual numbers, as this is how it is displayed on the actual game case (Except for MKI, but it seems a bit better then just MK). ~ The Haunted Angel 17:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Just to add my two pennies worth, I usually refer to the first game as just MK, and I'd prefer MKII over MK2. RobWill80 18:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Whether it is called MK or MKI doesn't bother me, I just don't want it to be MK1, and I'd rather Mortal Kombat II is MKII. Mortal Kombat 3 is actually called that on the case, so MK3 will suffice, and the same goes for MK4. ~ The Haunted Angel 18:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Just a heads up, I've added the abbreviations to the style guide, at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mortal Kombat/Style Guide#Abbreviations. It is pretty much the same list as above, but the first game is "MKI" and the second is "MKII". I opted for "MKI" over just "MK" to avoid any possible confusion with the Mortal Kombat franchise on the whole; with a number, there's no confusion. EVula 03:39, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Another thing

Can some of the fighters' Fatalities really be considered "recurring" if they were only used in one game? -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 06:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I have been going through all of the articles and trying to 'purge' out all fatalaties that do not appear in more then two games (if they have only been in a couple of games though, I usually allow it). If there are any fatalaties that only appear in one game still there, then it's either because some anon user has re-added them, or they have only been present in one game so far. The Haunted Angel 11:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Another thing might be to rename the headers for the characters that have only been in one game so far. Like Sheeva, Kurtis Stryker, Rain (Mortal Kombat), Reiko (Mortal Kombat), Shinnok, Sareena and the newbies from Deadly Alliance and Deception. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 15:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, perhaps we should wait on this until after MK:A is released? Then we'll know for sure what moves are recurring and which ones aren't (Taven and Daegon will just be the exception to the rule, I guess). EVula 15:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

But the Fatality structure is all different now. Do we know if anything will even be carried over from the previous installments? -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 01:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Aha! In re-reading some of the older discussion, I've come up with an alternative. If we rename the section "Notable finishers", we bypass the whole recurring issue (damn you Armageddon). "Notable" here is being defined as "Occurring in multiple games, where applicable".

I actually like recurring better, but it fails for the characters mentioned by SaturnYoshi above. While I'd rather have a consistent layout, I suppose we could make just those characters have a "Notable finishers" section, with everyone else having a "Recurring finishers". Dunno. EVula 15:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Integration with {{cvgproj}}

A request has been made at WikiProject Computer and video games talk to integrate the {{MortalKombatProject}} template into the CVG header itself. The newly integrated template can be seen here: User:Hbdragon88/Temp. Thoughts? Objections? --PresN 16:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, my only complaint is that the CVG and MK projects, while related, are generally independent. The CVG To Do list generally has absolutely nothing to do with any of MK articles, and the "this project supports..." bit is completely lost among the other tags, such as selected article bit. MK also covers stuff outside the usual jurisdiction of the CVG project (such as the films and TV shows). I say that they should stay separated, though I do think it was a nice idea. (cross-posted on the CVG page) EVula 16:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

It wouldn't completely eliminate the MortalKombatProject header; it would just be intergrated for all the MK video games, and it would remain for all other MK things (just like for Digimon, Pokemon, Machina, and Nintendo). Also, I'm sure the technical kinks could be worked out - showing the MK to-do list as well as the CVGJ to-do list (not sure, ask the technical code goes). Hbdragon88 20:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

It sounds more like a symbiosis is being suggested rather than true integration. The S 02:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Mortal Kombat Logo

Call me shallow, but I really think that the project needs a decent logo. If I may humbly submit my... ah, who am I kidding. If I may ego-boostingly submit the design I just whipped up, displayed on three different background colors:

I'm still dicking around with the proper licensing for the image on Wikipedia, but I'm uploading it specifically for this WikiProject (but also for other areas of Wikipedia where some image representing MK is needed but can't be used, like templates).

I tried working "WP" in there somehow, but it just looked cluttered, so I opted for a cleaner look with just "MK".

So, what does everyone think? EVula 04:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it looks really good, don't think I could design something like that! Would it be cluttered if 'WP' was in smaller letters below the MK? If not, it doesn't matter, still looks an awesome logo and I'll easilly agree to it ~ The Haunted Angel 08:12, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I like it. As far as the background goes, it depends on the background of the template - using the current peach scheme, either the black or peach would work (IMO, black is a little better). As far as putting the letter WP into it, I don't think it's necessary, and it most likely would clutter things up.Virogtheconq 13:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I really like it, especially how the glow and the shine make it stand out. It'll make a good logo for the project. Nice work! :) Actually, I'm a little late, but I was thinking of an image for the Userbox. I didn't upload it because I wasn't sure if "MK" in the logo font would be under copyright (My take on it would've looked something like this: [4]). RobWill80 13:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

To RobWill80: I did up a quick variant of the userbox (which I didn't save, and just re-did) at {{User WPMK/img}}. I don't think it would have been a copyvio on the type, though, as long as you did it yourself (as opposed to scanning the text and modifying it from there).

To Virogtheconq: I certainly like the logo on black better, but I'm not sure how much latitude we have with the peach boxes (sadly).

I proded several members' talk pages to get their feedback on this. If there's no objection, I'll go ahead and start modifying templates to include this as the official project logo. EVula 15:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Your logo looks good in the Userbox. The letters can still be seen clearly at the smaller resolution. Now, all I have to do is find a Windows web-browser that can handle transparency in png files (...any ideas?). RobWill80 17:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Rob, it looks great, better then the previous boring one. The Haunted Angel 17:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The only Windows browser that I knew didn't like PNGs is IE. I would think that Firefox would handle them properly... what about Opera, K-Meleon, Mozilla, or Netscape? An Intel Mac running Safari would work well, too. ;-)

Oh, and not to push the Mac twice in the same post, but the MK is a bit more dynamic under Safari; it uses the text-shadow CSS element, which isn't very widely supported, and has been dropped from the latest CSS specs. *sigh* EVula 17:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I've just downloaded Firefox (Cheaper than buying a Mac! ;) ) and the png transparency works fine. Thanks for the tip. RobWill80 18:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it looks quite nice. I'm all for it to being added to project templates, particularly {{MortalKombatProject}} as it's been quite bare for some time now. MarphyBlack 22:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead an made a stub tag (creatively named {{MK-stub}}). I figure that, even if people vote to not to use this image as the project's logo, it is still a perfectly valid (and free) image for MK on Wikipedia in general, and a stub tag is useful (as are all the subsequent categories that I had to make at the same time). EVula 21:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Nice, it's a pretty decent logo. I would be tempted to use the stub tag for the sake of it, but if I found a stub MK article the picky part of me would take over and I'd have to expand on it myself then and there, although I have a bit of a to-do list on the go, which I need to make edits to. The Haunted Angel 22:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I think I've run into about three articles that deserved a MK stub tag. However, it provided me an excuse to root around in the overall structure of the various MK categories, which needed to be done anyway. :-) EVula 22:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

"The only Windows browser that I knew didn't like PNGs is IE."

Since when? I'm running Explorer, and .PNGs are gold on it. The S 02:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I've had users on my website complain about transparent PNGs under IE/Win, and I've read in web dev books about IE's sometimes patchy support of the full PNG format. Perhaps it has been fixed by now (though the box model is no doubt still broken...). EVula 02:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The logo is really great, good job! For the stub tag, it is very good that we have a stub tag for MK-related articles, but we should use a copyrighted logo for the stub tag-MK's dragon logo would be great for it, for example.Master Spider 13:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

This is the same concern that I had with my userbox design. It says here (No. 9) that fair use images shouldn't be used in any templates. RobWill80 13:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the fair use policy is one of the two reasons I created this image (the other being so that the project had a logo). Other templates have the same problem, such as {{StarWars-stub}} and {{StarTrek-stub}}; both have a sea of great imagery that could be used (the Federation logo would be great for the ST tag, in my opinion). I thought about maybe putting the dragon logo on top of the button, but I wasn't sure if that would infringe on any copyrights or not, and instead opted for just the letters (in a MK font). EVula 14:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the dragon logo might be pushing it a little, but this one looks awsome! -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 16:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Apologies for joining in somewhat late, having signed in for the first time in ages today but I also have to say this looks excellent. --L T Dangerous 08:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty, it's been a couple of days, and I've gotten nothing but positive responses as for this being the project's logo (specifically, six affirmative responses). So unless there's an overwhelming swarm of members saying that it sucks (pfft, as if!), I'm considering this to be the project's logo. Yay! I'll get to work on adding it to everything else. Thanks for your support, everybody! EVula 14:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Mortal Kombat: Devastation edit war

Wesborland (talk · contribs) and I are involved in a rather obnoxious edit war over the Mortal Kombat: Devastation article. I've worked fairly hard to cite every single claim in the article, but he has been removing what I've written in favor of his copy, making unsourced (and, in one instance, patently false) claims and removing my citations to boot. I've warned him twice, but I'm finding good faith in short supply with him.

For those that are curious:

I'm already at 3 reverts right now as it is, though, so I don't want to revert much more (I'm perfectly happy with not ever having been banned). If anyone else wants to help me out with this (or even step in and try to work out a compromise), I'd appreciate it. Thanks! EVula 04:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I have been reverting his edits as well. He is being stubborn, though, and keeps changing it back. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 06:29, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad someone else is reverting him now; to be perfectly honest, I've violated WP:3RR a few times over by now on this article (though I'm holding onto ignore all rules for dear life, justified by the fact that he's violated two different policies). His talk page is where I've been ~~talking to a brick wall~~ trying to explain to him why his edits were being reverted.

Arg. EVula 06:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I read over it. Don't worry, I'm backing you up on this. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 06:45, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I really appreciate it.

In lighter news, it looks like the edit war is coming to an end. Yay! (if it hadn't been for the edit war, I probably wouldn't have broken the 5k edit mark for another week...) EVula 17:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, the edit war is now officially over. We finally got to an agreement on what Christopher Lambert said and what he did NOT say, lol. Wesborland 20:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been quite the busy little bee...

Okay, lots of stuff that I've been doing around here, so I'll just cover it all right now:

We now have a rudimentary Style Guide to dictate and standardize how the articles appear. It can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mortal Kombat/Style Guide.
I created an infobox for the various factions, rather than have the mess of code that was present (and inconsistent with our character infobox). You can find it at {{Mortal Kombat faction}}, but I've already and edited all the factions so that it is used.
I've applied the logo to {{MortalKombatProject}}. Damn if it don't look good. ;-)
I moved {{User WPMK}} into the project's namespace. I also did this for the image version, as well as SilentRage's version (and created an image version of that as well). See Wikipedia:WikiProject Mortal Kombat#Userboxes. Have no fear; I've taken the liberty of updating most everyone's link for them to bypass the redirect.
I've divided the Templates section up into additional sections, since we've all of a sudden got several more.
We now have a shortcut to this project: WP:MK.
All in all, I've just gone haywire on the main project page... [5]

So... yeah, that's all. EVula 23:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Ow! Dammit, I'm allergic to bees! :D Actually, you've done a bang-up job. Kudos to you! The S 03:01, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Note to self: next time, say "I've been quite the busy little non-allergenic creature of some variety". EVula 03:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

That's a lot of work! Well done. :) The style guide is an excellent idea. It'll be good to have a unified design for the game articles. RobWill80 13:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Excellent work. It's about time somebody actually went ahead and did some of the procedural stuff we've been saying we'd do =O). BTW, while I was scouting some other WikiProjects I stumbled onto WP:40K and was rather impressed by the structure they have to the project there. While outright copying their style would be rather crass, it's worth a look just to see what they've done (particularly the subheadings under Project Goals) and how we might be able to apply it to this project. Virogtheconq 03:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I've been scoping out other projects as well (for example, the style guide came from the Firefly WikiProject). I'd like to get a more up-to-date To Do list going, and have it incorporated in the project banner (like the CVG banner).

Oh, and the style guide has a shortcut at WP:MK/SG. This should make for really easy reference in (potential) edit debates in the future. EVula 07:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Another page move

So while EVula was off reducing our workload, I was busy adding to it... =O) - I've moved the Reiko page to Reiko (Mortal Kombat), since the disambig. stuff at the top was only the tip of the iceburg. Make changes to the MK articles as you see fit. Virogtheconq 03:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that piling up, but had to run out. Thanks for doing that. I just caught the last little bit of old links, so the move is complete now. Whee... EVula 06:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Welcome template

I've created a template for use in dealing with potential WikiProject members. It can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mortal Kombat/welcome (although you should subst: the template when using it). To see it in action (and to see me talking to myself like a loon), take a look at User talk:EVula#Welcoming myself... (testing a welcome template).

I think this will help people who stumble into the Mortal Kombat articles, especially if they don't understand some of our edits that are in-line with the Style Guide. EVula 18:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm running out of templates to make for the project!

Let's keep this page organized

I noticed that a lot of sections of this page are no longer active (there are some sections that were last updated in March 2006) and thus no longer useful, they should be deleted/archived in order to keep this page organized and easy for everyone to read. I think people should write here the sections they want to propose for deletion, if there are no complaints, the sections are deleted. Other suggestions can be submitted here too. Wesborland 21:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Sections proposed for deletion

Mortal Kombat: Devastation edit war
Dragon Logo

Suggestions

Er, no, we don't delete sections of the talk page. We'll archive them. EVula 03:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it really worth archiving ALL the sections? Some of them are really useless (for example the one about the edit war, since the movie article is now ok).Wesborland 15:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Just because a discussion is finished doesn't mean it should be deleted. EVula 15:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe it's also Wikipedia's policy to not delete discussions, but rather just archive them. Virogtheconq 01:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok I didn't know that. Can we at least create categories (movies, games, bios, etc) so that when people want to post or look for a specific message they don't have to read the entire page?Wesborland 15:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Between the table of contents and the browser's Find function, I think it is pretty well covered. It is better to leave it in chronological order; conversations make references to other discussions, even if they aren't related. The key is to make each archive not overly long, which will make skimming them a lot faster; for now, archiving every half year will work, but if traffic picks up, I'll switch it to a quarterly archive. Oh, and here's the guideline about talk pages: Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#When pages get too long. EVula 15:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Archive + reorganization

Okay, I've archived all the talk from the first half of the year to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mortal Kombat/Archive 1. It really was getting a little crazy.

Something else that is fairly major is that I've reordered everything on this page. The whole reverse chronology? Yeah, it was driving me batty, since this one talk page was different from every other talk page I use. Now new stuff is posted at the bottom, which is what happens when you use the "new discussion" button (the "+" link at the top of the page).

I also ditched the sub-sections for the talk page. They just didn't get used that much, and get in the way of the new system of organization.

Also of note is the talk page archive template that is on the right of both the current talk page and any archive. Please note the icon that is used... that's right, I swapped out Image:Vista-file-manager.png for a custom image. I'll basically just slap that logo on anything...

I realize that the reorganization of the talk page is pretty extreme (and is a bit bolder than I usually am), but I seriously think that this is a step in the right direction. Having a talk page that completely ignored the way that talk pages usually behave is just a recipe for disaster, and causes headaches when people use it "properly" (I had to reconcile the discussions that had been placed in the "wrong" places... ugh). EVula 04:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and for the record, I volunteer myself to archive discussions. I'm not trying to create more work for everyone else (just myself, apparently...). EVula 05:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't mean to critizice all the work you've done, but reverse chronology is more comfortable. Just a thought. Wesborland 20:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that it's better this way. It's a lot simpler to stick to one system, so I don't see why this page should be any different to regular talk pages. RobWill80 21:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

And I figured that it'd be easier to change this talk page than every other talk page, plus the Wikipedia system itself. Call me lazy. ;-) EVula 21:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the reorg - since only this project used reverse chronology to my knowledge (which I believe was Shadaloo's idea, though I could be wrong), new people randomly posting comments would use the traditional organization, which ended up jumbling conversations anyways. Virogtheconq 01:32, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Khameleon

It seems as though this character will not be developed any further. My suggestion is, should we remove her off the main character list and instead link to her page through the minor character listing? We don't have to delete her page or move it or anything, just modify the template at the bottom of the character pages and create a link on the List of minor Mortal Kombat characters page. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 02:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

We don't know if she won't be in MK:A for certain. I know Midway has stated she's not in the game, but this is exactly the sort of thing that they would want to create controversy/publicity about (Which they're certainly no strangers to). The MK games are infamous for their hidden secrets just waiting to be discovered, so I wouldn't throw her out the door just yet. Also, there happens to be a great abundance of info on her (Compared to Chameleon before he was announced to be in MK:A) and she's been referenced in two Mortal Kombat games since her appearance, which happen to be the two most recent fighting ones. I think downgrading her status right now would be jumping the gun just a tad. MarphyBlack 02:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

You're right. We only have a couple more weeks to wait anyway. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 02:19, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

MarphyBlack is apparently swimming around my head... an ill-advised action for a variety of reasons, although it did allow him to say the same thing I would have while I was eating dinner. Very sneaky. EVula 03:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps MarphyBlack is a member of the Brotherhood of Shadow? -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 05:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Removing character bios and endings

While I would probably just simply take the initiative and remove them myself, I just wanted to first point out what I think should be done here since it concerns a semi-wide range edit. I noticed that the character bios and endings have been removed from the MKII and MK3 articles (In MKII's case, they have been gone for a while now). Does anyone have any objections to also removing the character bios and endings from the MK, UMK3, MKT, and MK:DA articles now? They're taken verbatim from the games, so they don't really add much in terms of encyclopedic value. MarphyBlack 02:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that all bio and ending info should be found on the character pages. Not a copy and paste, but integrated into their background story info. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 02:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure that all the character storylines are covered pretty well by now. I don't think there's really anything more to be integrated from the bios and endings that already hasn't been mentioned. Anyway, aside from the little value that having all the bios and endings listed provides, there are also the cases where some endings simply aren't canon (Such as Raiden destroying the Earth in MK1, etc), which could be confusing to some. Also, some endings exist solely to retcon previous endings (Human Smoke's and Mileena's endings in MKT compared to UMK3). MarphyBlack 22:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

If people are that hard up to read bios and endings, we can direct them to mksecrets.net. They have most known bios and endings there. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 02:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Character image consistency

With the upcoming release of Mortal Kombat: Armageddon, I think we should now consider some sort of standard for what to use as the images for each character. As the game is not out yet, I'm seeing a chaotic mix of MKA promo renders mixed with the versus images that have recently been released on the official Midway forum. I think this looks somewhat sloppy. Personally, I think all the images need a total revamp. Therefore, I propose the following guidelines which will both make it easier to manage these character pictures and to add some uniformity to all of them: (I apologize if some of these seem poorly written or confusing, but I'm sorta just winging it here)

Main Infobox Image

The main image shown in each character's info box should be their latest rendition, which in most cases means what they look like in MKA (Khameleon may be the only exception). Mortal Kombat 8 is a long way off, so I don't think we'll have much to worry about here for the time being.
As they're all coming from the same game, the images should all be representing the characters in the same manner, i.e. only use the character image from their bio screen (As in Deception: [6], [7], [8], and so on, just using MKA equivalents). Right now, all we have are some sporadic MKA promo renders and versus images, so I can't exactly say what may be used as of yet (Hopefully MKA will have nice bio screens too). However, I don't think we should use the MKA versus images since Midway doesn't seem to have chosen any specific style for all of them. Some characters are holding weapons, some aren't, some take up the entire versus screen, some fill up very little space (Compare Chameleon's and Meat's), and other issues such as this.
For simplicity, the image should depict the character's primary costume, not any alternates or whatever.

Other general rules

Images should not use black backgrounds. Yes, I know this is how Midway have released some of their pictures, but it looks terrible in Wiki articles in contrast to the stark white background here. In a few cases, some characters are nearly invisible on the black background to begin with (Stryker, for example. Noob Saibot as another). Either a gray, white, or transparent background should be used, if possible.
The images should be of fair resolution. Although the ultra high-res renders from Shaolin Monks are currently being used in a few articles (Example), I think is somewhat over the top, despite looking very nice. However, some images currently being used suffer from the exact opposite problem: the images are far too small (Sheeva and Kai are two good examples). A reasonable compromise could be made.
Images should use a decent amount of compression without sacrificing quality. I know this is somewhat obvious, but I just noticed that some of the Deception bio images are 500kb png files. A jpeg could provide near exact quality at a fraction of the size.
Add a fair use rationale to all images. I know this rule doesn't seem to be enforced that much, at least in term of video game related images, but it wouldn't hurt to be on the safe side. Of course, adding a fair use rational to all images will probably take a while, so this is a somewhat low priority. Still, this may be something you may want to keep in mind should any of you upload an MK-related image.
Poor and unnecessary image replacements added into articles should be reverted on sight. I know this seems harsh, but more often than not these image replacements are done by fairly over-zealous fans who simply want to leave their mark using an "easy" method (No writing involved) or they believe that their replacement looks "cooler". However, the image replacement may actually be of a much lower quality (Poor cropping, poor compression, etc). If a standard is to be set, this would be the kind of thing to avoid and revert right away. For example, Kitana's article originally used the very nice, high-resolution render of her from Shaolin Monks. However, it was replaced by some god awful, low resolution, pixelated/possibly sharpened, overly compressed thing. Also, thanks to the black background, it looks as if the back of Kitana's head is merging with the black void of space (Incidentally, I believe this is a prime example of an image that is in dire need of replacing).

Anyway, I'm open to suggestions for any improvements of my proposition. In all honesty, I'd willing take on the entire image revamping project myself. I think this could add a little touch of uniformity to all the character articles that's so sorely needed. MarphyBlack 02:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

You can count me on board. I like your ideas and would like to help in any way that I can. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 02:32, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

All in all, I really like pretty much everything that is being said here (especially the Rain image; that is pretty damn nice screen cap). About the only item I disagree with is that I really like the Shaolin Monks images in the infobox (if the images were released as fairly high-res, I don't have a problem with keeping that resolution as long as the file size isn't crazy).

This is the sort of stuff that should eventually be placed in the Style Guide, that way we can ensure consistency. EVula 22:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't use the Shaolin Monk renders or other images of equal high-resolution, but that we can resize them to a slightly lower resolution if necessary. My main concern in this stems from the licensing tag mentioning "web-resolution" screenshots, which I guess is somewhat open to interpretation as to what defines a fair "web-resolution". However, now that I am re-reading this licensing thing, I guess high-resolution images are actually okay if the company originally released them as such. MarphyBlack 23:22, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Ayup, that's all I was saying. EVula 02:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

A corollary to your last "general rule" would be to revert ASAP. Depending on how often the OrphanBot does its work, good images that are no longer linked to in an article can get deleted in less than seven days - I've noticed a few of the better character images disappeared that way. I agree with EVula, this should be put into the style guide, though it's good to have it here first for a public commentary period before making it unequivocable law =O). Virogtheconq 01:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

But unequivocal law is fun!

Seriously though, I agree that this should get some discussion first. Even then, I don't think that the stuff in the Style Guide should be considered handed down from on high... but I'd really love it everyone else did, after looking over the history. ;-) EVula 02:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

(taking things seriously is, ironically, seriously overrated)

Cinder has posted about 22 or so Armageddon versus images. They are of decent quality. The only problem is that not every character has been represented yet. They can be found here, here, here, and here. How are these? -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 02:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Fantastic. I'd also like to point out that we shouldn't hesitate to flip images if they are facing the "wrong way" (meaning away from the content of the article), as the image is the same. Compare left Noob[9] to right Noob.[10]

Hell, if need be I can just mask out some of the characters and we can just flip-flop them to our hearts content and have them on any background we want (Meat on top of a Candy Land board? You got it!) EVula 03:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Sweet. I'll stay on top of MK Online and link more pics as they come out. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 03:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Update! Three more can be found here. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 21:51, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I mentioned my thoughts on the MKA versus images above. My main concerns are that they're quite small (Almost lower-resolution than the MK3/UMK3 versus images), they're very inconsistent with one another (Some characters are holding weapons, others are not), and that they don't really provide the best representations of them (Much of their body is out of frame, etc). I think the best case scenario would be if MKA has full-body depictions of the characters in their bios or something, à la Deception, but we won't know for sure until the game is released. In fact, I didn't really plan on doing anything relevant to this proposition until a a short while after MKA has been out, thus allowing time to consider what resources are available and what would be best to use. MarphyBlack 22:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Just an FYI, I've updated the infobox images for Kintaro (Mortal Kombat) and Chameleon (Mortal Kombat). I'm suddenly a major fan of Mortal Kombat Warehouse's picture archives. The transparent images look quite nice in the infobox, in my opinion, and work well for the characters. They also seem to meet MarphyBlack's proposed requirements for infobox images (though I agree that Deception styled full-body images would be optimal, I'd be surprised if we got it). EVula 16:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, after finally playing through Armageddon, it seems that there are no full body bio screens as I had hoped for. In fact, there are no bios period. But I digress, this presents somewhat of a problem with my proposition above. It seems that Midway did little to no updating of the characters returning from Deadly Alliance and Deception. Therefore, they look exactly the same now as they did many years ago. Thus, we have no real "latest rendition". The character pictures on the Armageddon site are re-used artwork from the past games as well. However, I feel that the character pictures on the Armageddon site (The same ones present at MK Warehouse) are still not the best representations of these characters, as with their versus poses. They're cropped, somewhat low-res, and the png transparency adds a lot to the file size. In light of this, I am now leaning towards simply keeping the Deception bios and Deadly Alliance renders since the Armageddon character pictures we have are literally the same but at a much lower quality. In the case of the characters new or returning for the first time in Armageddon, well, I guess we're just stuck with what Midway gave us. MarphyBlack

I just recently spent the last few days on a mad editing spree updating most all of the character infobox images. Since we have no definitive "Armageddon" rendition of each character, I used the following priorities:

1. The Shaolin Monks renders. Probably the best representations we have of these particular characters.
2. The Deception bio images. I replaced the very large 500kb-600kb png images with new and compressed 100kb jpeg replacements that give near equal quality. This should save about 5mb total.
3. The Armageddon pictures from the official site, taken from Mortal Kombat Warehouse. These are png files with transparencies, and surprisingly they look pretty damn good, especially in FireFox where png transparencies actually work. Check the articles for Sheeva, Stryker, Reiko, and so on for some examples.
4. Um, some sort of Deadly Alliance character renders. However, I can't find anything decent to use since it doesn't seem as if Midway released any nice-looking MK:DA renders. Once I find something for these characrers, then I will have finished revamping all the infobox images.
5. Everyone else uses a pre-MK:DA representation. Well, just Khameleon, really. :(

- MarphyBlack 19:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Ninja Embargo

I don't know for sure if any articles have used it just far, but it just ticks me off that a majority of the Mortal Kombat characters are constantly referred to "ninjas" despite only one playing character being a ninja (Scorpion). Not only is it grammically incorrect (ninja is plural for ninja), but it's incorrect. Sub-Zero himself even said he wasn't a ninja, and took offense to the term. So to keep things correct, I suggest we all use correct terms (such as "assassin" or something to refer to the Lin Kuei or the female pallete swaps from MK2). The S 02:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I prefer the term assassin. Ermac refers to themselves as such. Also, we now post new discussions at the bottom. Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 03:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this. As it is, "ninja" gets used as a replacement for "palette swap", which isn't even an accurate term for the characters anymore (since each of the palette-swapped characters now has a more-or-less distinctive costume). EVula 05:18, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Precisely. I've been looking for instances where they are still refered as pallete swaps so that it can be updated. Trilogy was basically the last game to feature pallete swaps. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 05:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, technically I suppose one could argue for MK4/Gold, but that was retexturing the same model instead of just palette-swapping. As far as the "ninja" thing goes, it's a widely-used fan denomination for any of the assassin-type palette-swapped characters. So in writing about it from an out-of-universe POV, the term "ninja" could be applied with an appropriate note, though assassin would probably be better overall, though a note about about the ninja mythos should probably still be included.Virogtheconq 14:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm in favor of discussing each character's introduction as a palette-swap in their history. This, I think, would be the place to address the character's "ninja" status... and then never, ever again. :-) EVula 16:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Update: looks like "ninja" is the official term, given the constant use of the word in reference to the items in Armageddon's Kreate a Fighter. This applies to the femme fatales, as well. EVula 15:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

You're actually using the mess that is Armageddon as evidence? :p But seriously, I don't see it becoming an official term in future games, since this is the first time (other than interviews) that it's being used officially. The S 03:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, considering the fact that all the Lin Kieu-related items are called "ninja whatever", yeah. :-P That said, I don't see the need to repeatedly address each character as a ninja; my original suggestion to cover the "ninja" term once early in the article still stands. EVula 03:24, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

More page moves

Hey, I heard that groan! Don't think I didn't!

Yes, two more articles have been moved:

Mortal Kombat species, since it really is just a list, is now List of Mortal Kombat species. Given the number of specific links to this article, this is a fairly move.
Kitana's hatnote was starting to bug me, so I moved it to Kitana (Mortal Kombat) and created the disambig page. Not as crucial a fix.

That's all. Depending on when you read this, it might already be fixed... EVula 04:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Pfft, I'm done with the species moves. 109 edits in about an hour... Booya. EVula 05:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, Kitana is done. 76 edits in half an hour... I think I just beat my old record. ;-)

So, anyway... yeah, I guess there's no real point in this bit of talk anymore, is there? *cough* EVula 05:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

And for my latest template... the Kombatant's Barnstar

I've finally finished my obsessive tweaking of the Kombatant's Barnstar. It isn't a "typical" barnstar, in the sense that I coded every bit of it with pure XHTML/CSS (as opposed to the wikitables that most every other one is made of). It unfortunately isn't as nice as I'd imagined, as Wikipedia won't allow for certain CSS tags... blast. Anyway, feel free to provide feedback; I realize that I stuck pretty religiously to a red/black/gray color scheme, but the shades of orange that I tried introducing just didn't work particularly well.

In related news, I'm seriously running out of things to slap the logo on. I've already eyed the little to do icon at the top of the page... EVula 05:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, change the pushpin to the MK "bubble". -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 18:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Pushpin + bubble = Image:WPMK Note.png

So... yeah, I'll basically make custom images for anything. EVula 04:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Cute. Virogtheconq 06:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks for The Haunted Angel for awarding me the first barnstar. In a fit of ego-stroking, I realized that I should probably make a userbox for it... so I did. It has an optional field for adding the awarder's name (in use on my awards page). EVula 05:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Port exclusive content on MK games originally in the arcade

I think all info about content and features added to ports of the MK games that were in the arcades should remain under a port section. They should not be under the main article's, for example, "Characters" or "Arenas" sections unless they were originally in the arcade game.

Here's an example, in bold, of what I mean taken from the "Characters and cast" section of the Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 article:

"Rain (John Turk) - Featured in the games opening montage, he is a fake hidden character that is not found in this game. He was meant to be a mock of song-artist Prince's hit "Purple Rain." Like the song, Rain is characterized by the bright purple ninja outfit that he wears. Another mock aimed at Prince would be the phrase "Rain can be found in the Graveyard" which subtly points to Prince's dying career during the time that the game was released. In the Sega Mega Drive/Genesis and Super Nintendo version he was playable. He also becomes playable in Mortal Kombat Trilogy."

I also think the mention of Rain in MK Trilogy is unnecessary. He has that game's article as well as a character page to explain his in-game appearances.

Buzda 09:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply, but yes, I agree with this. It's a little confusing to know what precisely has been changed or made different in the ports of each game as all this info is spread throughout the rest of the main article. However, I know next to nothing about the console ports of most of the MK games, so I'm afraid I can't be of too much help with gathering or moving the necessary information. Looking over the game articles, though, I see you've already made some additions to them. All that really needs to be done at this point is the Ports section of the MKII article, which is currently just a bunch of pictures (Not sure if they should stay, actually). MarphyBlack 02:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

List of Mortal Kombat species

This article does not have a single reference - most of it could be OR as far as any editor unfamilar with the games (like me) can determine. I will PROD it in a week or so. Hopefully by then some references can be found? --Charlesknight 21:12, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Er... well, how should the sources be cited, exactly? We can't just say "Source", I'm assuming. EVula 21:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Everything you wanted to know about sources --Charlesknight 22:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

PRODing is excessive. The list is rather long, but contains information that is somewhat notable in terms of describing the MK universe out of universe without including extensive descriptions within the relevant articles themselves. The MK Wikiproject is currently trying to move things towards an out-of-universe perspective, but this is taking a long time as 1) not a lot of contributors are aware of the MoS, and 2) Those who do often have other things that prevent them from rewriting entire articles. Better to leave the unreferenced tag up and maybe revisit it in a few months, not a week. I know I wouldn't be able to resource it to your satisfaction in that amount of time.

That being said, it is high time we developed a game source guide for the wikiproject. I've poked through the MoS recommendations on sources, and can't find anything definite on how exactly to cite games, commentaries, etc., which are the only source of information we have (and the MoS discourages using games as a primary source, for reasons with which I disagree). I suppose just saying "Commentary by Ed Boon in XXX" would be more than sufficient for a placeholder, though. Virogtheconq 03:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to help, but what, specifically, needs to be done? The sources for all this information comes from nearly every single game in the series, either through the character bios, the character endings, the arcade attract mode screens, etc. Just as an example, the Shokan race being described as "half-human, half-dragon" warriors comes from the text in the original MK arcade game's attract mode. However, does this mean that we need to put an inline citation for every fact that's stated? The guideline above isn't very clear on what to do about games. I'd have to scour through the MK Species article again to see if anything has slipped through the cracks, but just about all of it is easily verifiable from checking the games (Don't assume it's OR and worthy of deletion, please). Although I'm guessing that simply adding a list of all the games at the end of the article will not be considered sufficient enough as to properly providing references for this material. MarphyBlack 04:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

MarphyBlack summed up my response better than I did. Its not that I don't know how to cite a source, its that I'm not sure how exactly to cite the games themselves.

Also, I agree with Virogtheconq that we need a source guide. That's on my personal little list, and something that I was hoping to work up to (I figured an actual style guide was, ultimately, more important). Something else I'd like to see implemented is a full assessment of each article, and ranking them in importance to the project. Still a bit away from that, though. EVula 06:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll seek further advice on how games should be cited, because looking further at the mortal kombat characters article, I don't see a single source (I picked ten at random)! --Charlesknight 16:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

You guys might check out CVG FAs like Final Fantasy X to see one way to cite things; they tend to copy the in-game text that they cite, alongside the game being cited. There is also the {{cite video game}} template. Nifboy 18:11, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Mortal Kombat Conquest

Feel free to review the List of Mortal Kombat Conquest episodes I created. Enjoy. Raja Lon Flattery 14:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice start. I went through and made several changes (including adding the MK table). The one bit of advice I'd give you is to make sure you check your links; the Lin Kuei link took me to the real group, and you had a link to Subzero. EVula 16:11, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

lol, I didn't know there was a real group. Raja Lon Flattery 16:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was a bit surprised as well. Just keep in mind that you should always follow your links to make sure they go where you want, as numerous MK articles have "(Mortal Kombat)" at the end. Scorpion, Smoke, Sub-Zero, Jade, Raiden... none of those articles are the relevant ones.

Also, double-check to make sure you closed your episode table properly; I've fixed it twice (take a look at the history to see exactly what was done). EVula 16:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

We need a new logo for this wikiproject... i dunno im bored thats why i am posting this

use the current one with the mk dragon on the background (make it look shadowy) this way it looks nice on my user page.. plz. my fave char is subzero and scorpion and noob. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Storkian (talk • contribs)

Um, what? First off, in my opinion EVula's MK logo looks great, and there's no problem with that on my User page. Secondly, I don't think we can have the Dragon logo because of copyright, but I'm not totally sure. Either way, it's staying as it is. The Haunted Angel 18:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the Angel on this one - I'm very happy with the logo as it is. However, we have to remember that this place operates on consensus. So, if you'd rather have a different logo, you have a few options:

Put up with the current consensus that EVula's brilliant design is used for our logo; or
Offer your own design, and see what happens (make sure that it doesn't violate Wikipedia policy).

The choice is yours. RobWill80 19:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I think we should keep the current logo. Completely unbiased opinion, of course... EVula 03:48, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Unbiased, yeah... ;) I like the current MK bubble design also. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 01:05, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so maybe just a bit biased... EVula 02:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I like the current logo, I think we should keep that one.Wesborland 07:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Referencing sources

Okay, so now we begin the long, arduous task of properly referencing everything... oh boy! :-)

For the initial foray into this, I suggest we start with Mortal Kombat: Armageddon; of all the MK articles, this one has the best chance at being fully-referenced, as it is still unreleased and information is being released about it on a regular basis. This can serve as a good training ground (for lack of a better term) before we start tackling the more difficult articles, like the characters.

With that in mind, I've made a dedicated "References" section. Sadly, it only has a single reference right now; I picked a section in the middle to start with, though really we should start from the top down, so that we can properly cite the same sources multiple times. I'll start doing more when I get home, but for right now, I wanted everyone to know what was going on. EVula 18:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I've heard different things about this, but do we have to source stuff to do with the game storylines? For example, would one have to find the part in the Mortal Kombat Storyline, for example, and put a source to the bottom where is will state in which game this particular event occurred? I have been told we do have to do this, but to me it seems like stating the obvious. Examples of what I mean can be found on the Metal Gear timeline. The Haunted Angel 20:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

"but do we have to source stuff to do with the game storylines?" This, in my opinion, is where the uncertainty and confusion comes in when being asked to add sources and references to video game articles. If this were a biographical article about a living person, then sure, sources and references would be a must. However, this is about a video game. The game is the source for this information. How would you verify this information? You simply check the game, just as if you'd check a reference book if it was listed as a source. Having to put inline citations is superfluous, if not downright absurd. The guidelines for providing references and sources for video game information need some revising, or at least some added clarity. MarphyBlack 22:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Now that is exactly what I think, but if you click here, which links to the Metal Gear timeline, you will see that there they have sourced the actual games in which the events occour.. even though it seems obvious. I was also told on the talk page of the Mortal Kombat storyline, that it needs to be linked to the actual game... which seems a bit stupid, really.~ The Haunted Angel 22:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

It is, but it isn't a lot of work for something that will (hopefully) resolve some long-standing issues other editors have with these articles. Perhaps we should look into making a template that we could just stick in the references section that will automatically cite the games. Virogtheconq 03:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I thought about that, but didn't find anything that I felt would really work. I'd be more than happy to have overlooked something. Unless we can get away with just a blanket "General references" section, which would be a transcluded list of all MK games...

I think our best bet would be to just mention what game something happens in, which is what we do more often than not anyway. EVula 03:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I also started converting the character articles over to a style guide-dictated format, starting with Sub-Zero (Mortal Kombat). Part of this includes a References section, which I've gone ahead and done a couple of. This will still be an uphill battle, but I think we can do this... eventually...

Also, I've started updating the To Do list at the top of the talk page, so everyone can use that to get a sense for what is actively going on around here. EVula 02:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Good news! Turns out that there is a way to have a standardized note section. Ironically, I found it on the article that I wrote back when I first joined Wikipedia and didn't know how else to do <ref>s...

Check out The Zombie Survival Guide#References. Each of the websites is done as a single item in just the References section, rather than an in-line citation. I used that to crank out Wikipedia:WikiProject Mortal Kombat/game refs, which lists all of the games for easy citation. I still need to tweak the code, but I'm hoping that we can just include that file in an article and instantly cite each game as many times as we need. I'll keep everyone informed as I go. EVula 16:05, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Just an update, but Metal Gear Solid recently was given GA status, in no small part from the (extensive) referencing that's been done on it, which includes specific quotations from in-game dialogue to write about plot elements, which we could probably do here (though instead of dialogue, it'd have to be excerpts from the manuals or endings). Virog^{It's not}_{my fault!} 04:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Something to keep an eye on

Hey, guys. Just thought I'd bring up the number of articles with "BMK" and/or "AMK" in them. There used to be a BMK-AMK article which stated it stood for "Before Mortal Kombat" and "After Mortal Kombat". It got deleted because it was totally unsourcable- it's never been in any of the games, it's never been mentioned in any publications and the developers don't use it. And, yet, the terms remain in a lot of articles. It's difficult to search for them as the results often take you to pages that have little or nothing to do with Mortal Kombat, so I'm just going to request that if you guys spot any usage of either BMK or AMK you remove it. I don't really think this needs further explanation but, if you need anything to sway you, I should point out there's little-to-nothing to give any indication of timeframe within the games. --L T Dangerous 19:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I voted for that article to be deleted. I will be on the lookout for those mentions too. ^---SilentRAGE! 12:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've pretty much ransacked a load of pages. Unless I missed any (which I don't think I did) then BMK and AMK are now removed from the BMK and AMK articles themselves, all the Realms pages and all the factions/alliances pages. I think they're the most likely to have any but I wouldn't put it past the terms being on some character pages (more likely the MK1-4 pages as MKDA made it hard to tell how much had passed in between). --L T Dangerous 13:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

"Hornbuckle"?

I don't get it, why after it was revealed that this "Hornbuckle" character is really one of Onaga's Holy Men (in the same sentence that explains that "Torch" is Blaze, none the less), is the name "Hornbuckle" still used? I think the articles should be edited to reflect this. I know I am changing them. Who else? ^---SilentRAGE! 12:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the explanation that Hornbuckle is one of Onaga's holy men and the name Hornbuckle itself as being mutually exclusive. Not only that, but there is no source for Hornbuckle's retcon; it isn't even covered by his minor character description. EVula 15:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you stoned? [11]

"During his quest, he was ambushed on a bridge by an anceint sect of holy men still serving the long dead Dragon King." See, right there! The bridge in question is the one next to the Pit II. The scene that screenshot is describing is when Blaze was captured. If you say that "Hornbuckle" isn't a representation of a holy man, then you might as well not consider the man on fire as Blaze, because this is the only source material saying that he is infact Blaze. ^---SilentRAGE! 04:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

If you're done insulting me, I'd like for you to explain how Hornbuckle can't be the name of the holy man (which is the crux of my argument; try re-reading it, since I think you're mistaken as to what I was asking). I have no problem with saying that the character across from Blaze is one of Onaga's Holy Men; I have a problem with your assertion that "Hornbuckle" can't be his name.

Thanks for providing the source that I asked for, but next time try to do it without being rude, if you don't mind. EVula 04:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I was in a really bad mood at the time. Anyway, the reason that his name is not Hornbuckle, is because that name is just a fan term. The name "Hornbuckle" has never been shown in any game and has never been documented in any official way by Midway. And because this is Wikipedia, I think that you have to site your source(s) on this one. ^---SilentRAGE! 07:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

No worries, apology accepted. I think that it is important to document that Hornbuckle, while not official, is still the fan-derived name of the character, just with a heavy emphasis on the fact that it isn't official in any way, shape, or form. EVula 16:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Mokap

Mokap's article is one of the few MK articles that hasn't been cleaned up and is one of the MK articles that has ben vandalized so much. For instance, a week ago, somebody wrote that Mokap has a camcorder as a weapon in Armageddon, also showing a video source for it (though, the video does not show Mokap with a weapon). Months ago, in the article, it was writing "Gaykap", instead of Mokap. Also, his biograpy section is just a copy-and-paste of his Deadly Alliance bio. Currently, I put both of his Deadly Alliance and Armageddon renders, and tried to write his bio from scratch (which I didn't succeed well). Currently I tagged the article as a MK stub. If we can expand this article, it would be better I think, because although he's a joke character, he's also a MK main character, and if he's going to appear in Armageddon, he would be a more "serious" character. What do you think? Master Spider 16:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Anyone have Armageddon yet?

There was recently a minor rash of alignment changes to some of the articles (primarily updating "Unknown" alignments), which were reverted by The Haunted Angel. I'm hoping to pick up the Prima guide to the game later today, but really it'd be great if one of us had the game and could definitively rule on some of the content changes that are going to start happening.

The <expletive deleted> Xbox version won't come out for another week, so I'm useless on any actual game content that isn't in the Prima guide. EVula 21:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I changed them thinking that someone altered them based on past games or assumption, forgetting that Armageddon isn't released here.... for a while. (Damn you, Boon!!!) I probably made an error with that, that is, if those articles were changed based on Armageddon endings. Either way, I think I'm gonna have to take a huge chunk of articles off my watchlist, lest spoilers ruin my life! ~ The Haunted Angel ^{(Pray to the Angel)} 21:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Bah, the store didn't have the damn guide; they told me to try again tomorrow. Damn you, UPS! EVula 23:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I've had it for a few days, but with work, I'm haven't been able to play it for very long at all. The S 17:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was hoping to have it this week, when I've got plenty of free time in the evenings. Not sure what my schedule next week will be like. Worst of all, I'll have to just kill some friends tomorrow in Deception rather than Armageddon. Tragic!

Oh, and apparently nobody has the damn guide for the game. Terribly pissed about that. EVula 17:14, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I've been looking to buy the eGuide - it would be easier for me to use, as my PC is about 8ft away from the TV! But because Prima's website doesn't take international orders, I'm having some trouble finding it. As for the game, the site I ordered it from still says it should be dispatched tomorrow. They have released items early before (e.g. my copy of RotK:EE was early), but I'm trying not to keep my hopes up! RobWill80 19:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I would personally suggest that you avoid the eguide at all costs. You are forced to run it in what appears to be some sort of inhouse Prima-created Adobe Acrobat ripoff. It is awful beyond description. It uses up a insanely massive amount of resources, scrolling takes an absolutely ludicrous amount of time to simply go through one page, and the program will probably crash at some point anyway, but it will still leave a massive system resource waster running in the background that will require you to ctrl+alt+del it (Unless you use a Mac, in which case the eguide is not supported, sparing you from the suffering). I suppose the strategy part of the guide itself is not bad (If you really need a deep and in depth description of fight tacticts), but if you're looking for more MK storyline info, such as bios and the like, don't even bother. All of the bios are simply taken verbatim from previous games (How did characters like Sheeva and Shang Tsung come back from the dead? Who knows!). MarphyBlack 21:16, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah. Thanks for the tip. I might wait for the paper version to be released here. Some bio info would've been a plus, but I wanted it mostly because I'm just getting used to the different fighting styles in the newer games. RobWill80 23:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I knew that it was too good to be true: This morning, the site said that it was waiting for stock from the supplier. Now the release date has changed to the same as the other stores! Because I can't verify anything, it looks like I'll have to avoid the character articles for a little while longer... RobWill80 15:34, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, my overall effectiveness to the project has taken a bit of a nose-dive as well. All the recent additions have also been done willy-nilly, wrecking any semblance of order or consistency. My precious style guide, noooooo! :-) EVula 15:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

This is one reason I decided to stop editing the Armageddon and character articles: too many changes once the game came out. I'm thinking we should all come back in a month once things have settled down/the XBox version has been released. The articles that don't explicitly involve Armageddon (the other games and the movies, I guess) should be fine, though. Virogtheconq 02:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

The Prima guide is no help. It says practically nothing about alignment. And as expected, it's literally filled with typos and picture errors. Also, it tries to mention where all relics can be found in Konquest but it missed out on the locations of about four of them. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 17:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I got it. And with the lack of both the explaination of what happened between Deception and Armageddon and character bios, this game is making it harder for us to write down any cohesive storyline. It's bullshit! ^---SilentRAGE! 20:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there is a real storyline. Basically, all the bios carry over from the last game the fighters were in. The Kombat Kards usually provide bio info, but they don't have one for all the characters. I don't think that Chameleon has one. This game really seems to be a next-gen Trilogy. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 20:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I too, think that Armageddon is just made for collect all existing characters (even the most minor, most unoriginal and less liked ones) and put an end to behind most of them.

About the bios, yes, Armageddon does not have bios. I thought that the endings were explaining what happened them, but their ending are just...scrappy (I can't think of any word). At least, they can be a clue for their real end, such as they will/would live or not.

So far, we will gain info from Konquest mode and endings, if they aren't any bios. What do you think? Master Spider 14:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

For lack of a better source, yeah, looks like Konquest will be our primary source. Damn. EVula 15:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Good. Although, there are information on some articles from Armageddon endings, and it has written as to be canon (Rain, for example-his ending is written as it is really canon). Should it (and the others) be deleted or not? Master Spider 16:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how Rain's ending is being stated as canon in his article. It's just saying what happens in it. All the character articles present their Armageddon endings in the same way, with no judgement as to their canonicity (Even in the case of mind-numbingly stupid endings, like, say, Jarek's), leaving the reader to come up with their own opinions (Most likely being something along the lines of "These endings really suck!"). MarphyBlack 18:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I now have Armageddon, though I've got rehearsals for most of this week, and won't be able to play it (and, well, I spent far too much time customizing a character...). Aside from playing some of the big and/or new guys (whee Onaga... Meat is really fun, too), I haven't gotten into it that much.

Also, if anyone else has Xbox Live, feel free to add me to your buddy list (I'm creatively named "EVula"). EVula 14:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Mine's arrived in the post this morning. I'll play through it a few times before I get comfortable editing character pages again. I'm disappointed over the lack of bios, but I hope Midway are taking notes and will add something online or to the Wii version (...and maybe put Khameleon in the bloody thing...). RobWill80 09:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

MK-stub up for deletion

Please weigh in at Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion/Log/2006/October/11#various cvg sub-cats. EVula 18:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Assessment and quality

It is getting to be time that we started grading and assessing the various Mortal Kombat articles. To that end, I've started building the infrastructure for it. Take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mortal Kombat/Assessment and let me know what you think.

I'll be editing {{MortalKombatProject}} soon to include the relevant fields, and then I'll start assessing everything. But before I do that, I figured it'd be a good idea to, you know, ask you guys what you think. :-)

For quality, it'll be largely subjective (and, right now, a bit up in the air). But for importance, I've got fairly clear ideas of what is (and isn't) important in relation to the franchise. The examples I gave at the right I think sum up my ideas pretty well. Again, though, this isn't all about me, so feedback is greatly appreciated.

I also need to find out what I have to do to get a bot to help maintain the dynamically-changing items (such as a quality breakdown table). And I still have a lot of categories to create... Whee, this is fun. EVula 19:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Ermac/Sindel MKD Ending

I've noticed on Jax, Sonya, Cage, Kitana and Kung Lao pages that Ermac's ending is aknowledged as canon, while Reptile and Sindel's page does the same with Sindel's ending to explain the split of Onaga and Reptile. Now, is that officially confirmed canon somewhere or its just assumptions? I do realize Sindel's ending is the best bet to explain that, but Kitana was also on that one, so there's a little contradiction on their pages. If that's speculation, didn't Wikipedia don't allow such things? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.9.209 (talk • contribs)

Unfortunately, there seems to be nothing in MKA that ties up, well, any loose endings. Suddenly everyone's in Edenia and Reptile's back, oddly wearing a costume that's non-canon to the extreme and everyone who died has come from the grave with no explanation for it all. It can't be understated how lazy Midway have been with regards to plot in MKA. Unfortunately, as good an explanation as Ermac and Sindel's MKD endings may be for some things, the guidelines for this very project state everything must be sourcable and, sadly, we can't prove with 100% certainty that either ending occured. If it's not bad enough that MKA doesn't fill any plotholes, it's worse that it creates a few. --L T Dangerous 13:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Though I agree that a lot of the plotlines suck, Frost's return was covered by Konquest (Taven wakes her by smashing her ice). EVula 14:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Plus, Reptile's Deadly Alliance form is available as an alternate costume. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 14:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think alternate costumes are considered canon; Cyrax's is his mid-cyborg transformation, but by the time the game happens, he's been a cyborg for quite some time (the description specifically states that it is how he looks before his transformation was complete). Not sure about the rest, as I've only unlocked a few so far. EVula 15:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

As well as the fact that you can play both nanobot Smoke and regular cyborg Smoke, ala Deception (though the primary and alt are switched). The S 18:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Realistically speaking, Ermac's Deception ending does logically explain the return of all these Deadly Alliance characters without conflicting with anything else that is seen in Armageddon (ie, Onaga isn't dead, Liu Kang is still a zombie/spirit, no one else is dead, etc). However, I don't think there's any possibility of Sindel's ending being canon since that means Onaga would be dead, and this gives a different story as to how Kitana returned to normal. Yeah, I know Reptile and Onaga both exist in Armageddon, but I would just consider that really, really, really lazy writing (Or, "completely non-existant writing", as the case may be). Point in short: I don't believe that Onaga died, and Ermac is plenty cool enough to have won in Deception. MarphyBlack 22:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

But then again, that's just speculation. I agree, but again, that would just be two of us speculating. The S 15:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Outword Residents: Human or Not

While the "Human" Members of Outworld aren't given a race name, Woulnd't it be better to call them Outworldians as they are not from earth realm and they also live almost as long as an edian (Shujunnko meets Bo' Rai Cho as a child but while he ages, bo' rai cho does not) Lego3400: The Sage of Time 01:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I think "Outworlder" has been used, but I can't remember if that's canon. But yeah, just like Edenians, those from Outworld have ridiculously long lifespans. The S 02:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I've heard of the term "Outworlder" being used before to describe certain denizens of Outworld (Sheeva, Shang Tsung, etc.), but I've never seen it used to describe an actual race of people, such as the Edenians. Aren't the inhabitants in Outworld just humans, like in Chaosrealm and Orderrealm? And where did the idea that people in Outworld live longer than normal come from? You point out that Bo' Rai Cho doesn't age even though he knows Shujinko from the times he was a child until he became an old man. However, nobody in Deception ages (Aside from Shujinko). The way I first played through Deception's Konquest mode, Jarek had to wait about 50 years before I could find him those three damn Oni teeth, but he didn't change a bit through that time. Therefore, I don't think we should take the timeline in the game's Konquest mode too seriously (Unless it was specifically mentioned somewhere that the people who live in Outworld have extraordinarily long lives). MarphyBlack 21:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I've never heard "Outworlder" used to describe anything other than anyone who comes from Outworld (Motaro, Goro, and Reiko would be good opposing examples). EVula 21:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Shao Khan has been Trying to take over Edeina and earth world for at least 50 years and has hardly aged, nor has Shang Suang or any one else. Sub-Zero and Sujinko clearly show the effects of time. No-one from outworld, Edina or the other realms have really aged. Also lots of the Humans have come back from the dead many times so that could explaiain how they stay young. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs)

Additionally, Kitana, Jade, etc. are 10,000+ years old, but they don't look a day over 2,400. However, they are specifically Edinians. Shao Kahn has never been stated to be human.

So far, Sub-Zero and Shukinko are the only ones who show any aging (although Sub-Zero, having interacted with a fairly young Shujinko, should be a lot older). EVula 17:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Shang Tsung doesn't age because he has been cursed. He needs to feed off the souls of others which allows him to keep his youth. However, Shang Tsung is human. I don't see any evidence to suggest that the humans in Outworld don't age. MarphyBlack 20:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

First off, I'm pretty sure Outworld Humans either age slowly, or not at all; I mean, take the people who have been part of Shao Kahn's army for so many years. What about Bo Rai Cho? He appears to be the same age from the beginning of the Deception Konquest to the end, but this could just mean that they age slowly. Where is it stated that Shang Tsung was cursed not to age? The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 22:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The thing about Shang Tsung is mentioned in the official MK comic book written by John Tobias (Good ole Saibot...). Anyway, as I mentioned before, not one person (Aside from Shujinko) in Deception's Konquest mode ages, not even bonafide confirmed normal humans. Sub-Zero is one of the first fighters that Shujinko is required to meet in order to continue his quest, and this is still when he's barely out of his teens. 30-40-whatever years later, Shujinko becomes an old man, yet Subby still manages to look pretty good (aka he remains exactly the same) despite the large time duration.

Incidentally, I just double checked the MK comic book and rather coincidentally it uses the word "Outworlder". However, this is used to describe Goro, not a race of people. MarphyBlack 23:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you make a good point... Sub-Zero is a Mortal, and so he'd be an old man by the end of Konquest... I would say that it was a different Sub-Zero, but this was never mentioned, I think we are gonna' have to stick with the fact that most of the Konquest events are non-canon. Talking of which, is this comic by ~~Saibot~~ Tobias canon? I mean, I know people say "It's by one of the MK creaters so it has to be canon", but really, is it? I mean, Deception's Konquest and Shaolin Monks were created by Boon and such, yet they aren't canon. But I suppose if nothing is contradicted in this comic then I suppose it is canon... The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 23:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I think canonocity is always something that is non-contradictory. For example the Sub-Zero eye scar by Kung Lao in SM. Because this event was given no previous explanation in other games, it's considered canon. It's not that Deception's Konquest mode is not canon, it's just that the timeline isn't very chronological. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 01:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Shaolin Monks' explanation of the eyescar is contradicted by the official MKII comic book (which IS canon). Kung Lao first meets Sub-Zero II when he comes to the Shaolin temple in a hoverjet, wearing sunglasses and a business suit. Sans scar. He would have no reason to GIVE him the scar. The S 02:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if some smarmy jackass came into my temple on a damn hoverjet and I was wearing a giant blade on top of my freakin' head, I'd be plenty tempted to give the guy a scar. EVula 03:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the comics are being pushed further into obscurity because Tobias has nothing to do with the series anymore. Perhaps Midway is replacing his stories with Vogel's. Who knows? But it seems like canon info comes from all sources, for example: nowhere in the games prior to the first movie does it say that Kitana is over 10,000 years old. So near as I can tell, Midway picks and chooses their canon and will change it as it suits them. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 07:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Somehow, I get the impression that all of that hoverjet crap, isn't canon. The conquest mode in Deception has a screwed up timeline, and because that's messed up, I'd say most of the events in it arn't canon, though some major ones (such as him being put in jail) are probably canon. Personally, I don't like the idea of Kung Lao giving him the scar, I always thought (and read somewhere; probably a non-canon source) that his former clan gave it to him, but this is probably just because I don't like the story in Shaolin Monks. Infact, I shudder at the thought of it. The amazing gameplay makes up for it (I think the most hit's I've got in that game was like 164, and playing as Kung Lao in Brutality mode is so satisfying..), anyway I'm gonna' stop rambling about the game itself before I get told off. Anyway, I don't think there are any other 'Outworld humans' that are stated to have long lives, save Shang Tsung. Quan Chi however, does have a very long life, but he was originally an Oni, I believe. Shao Kahn has lived for a few thousand years, but I don't think his race has a name. It appears that it's just Edenians that have really long lives, except like other minor races, such as dragons, etc.. By this point, I think I'd like to say that the word canon has lost all meaning. The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 13:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

On a side note, Ed Boon specifically stated that when they said Sub-Zero was marked for death by his clan, they weren't refering to an actual phisical mark, i.e. the eye scar. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 23:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe the hover-jet thing is supposed to represent the Lin Kuei's new focus on technology, which would eventually lead to the creation of their cybernetic warriors. Since we don't get too much of an idea of what the Lin Kuei is like during this techno-centric period (All depictions are either before this time, or after Sub-Zero took over), this may make complete and total sense depending on how you look at it. Also, I like the idea of Sub-Zero handing out business cards. MarphyBlack 00:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I do too. It fits with how in Deadly Alliance, one reason he joined the fight against Tsung and Chi (other than trying to save the world) was for Lin Kuei PR. The S 02:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, somewhat back to the original topic, I noticed that Bo' Rai Cho's article states that he helped train the Great Kung Lao. Now, since the Great Kung Lao lived 500 years before the Mortal Kombat tournament in which Liu Kang defeated Goro, that would mean that Bo' Rai Cho has lived for at least this long a time for him to have been able to train both. However, I can't find out where the claim that Bo' Rai Cho trained the Great Kung Lao came from. It's not mentioned in either his Deadly Alliance or Deception bios and endings. If this was true, it would definitely add credence (If not outright prove) the theory that humans in Outworld live longer than normal lives. MarphyBlack 02:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

It might have been his Deadly Alliance Konquest mode. Unfortunately, I don't have time to verify. The S 02:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is a transcript of Bo' Rai Cho's Deadly Alliance Konquest text thing: http://tabmok99.mortalkombatonline.com/konquest-boraicho.html. It mentions the present Kung Lao, but nothing of his ancestor. This text also claims that Liu Kang is Bo' Rai Cho's first successful student "after many failures". Since the Great Kung Lao actually defeated Shang Tsung originally, I wouldn't consider him a "failure". I am removing the Great Kung Lao's name from Bo' Rai Cho's article for now until we can find definite evidence of him being a pupil at one time (Which doesn't seem to be quite easily verifiable as it has been so far). MarphyBlack 02:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Sub-Zero... handing out business cards.... I'm not even gonna' bother. Annnyway, I think most of the 'Immortal Outworld resident' things, has mainly come from non-canon sources, such as the Conquest TV series, but we should still keep thinking of different instances and reasons for them...The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 13:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I think the idea that Bo'Rai Cho trained the Great Kung Lao is probably an inference from a "Master Cho" in Conquest, which was written long before the idea of Bo'Rai Cho first came up. They bear no resemblence in appearance, personality or mannerisms. Virogtheconq 00:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

We Seem to have gotten off topic! Focus People!Lego3400: The Sage of Time 00:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Project Directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages:

User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory,
User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory 2,
User:Badbilltucker/Philosophy and religion Directory,
User:Badbilltucker/Sports Directory,
User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory,
User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory/United States, (note: This page will be retitled to more accurately reflect its contents)
User:Badbilltucker/History and society directory, and
User:Badbilltucker/Science directory

and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 21:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Directories reviewed, all existing information is relevant, and no information is missing. EVula 21:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the mistake earlier. I forgot the links were all to the existing directory. I believe everything is correct, but it might stand review. Sorry for the mistake. B2T2 00:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Ideas from contributers: A Good userbox

I am a HUGE Mk fan and I wanted to share you my idea. Can you make a 2 boxed-userbox saying "This player likes Mortal Kombat" or something like that. I want the left ID box area to have the MK dragon on it and the right, Put the mortal kombat wikiproject logo on it.

I would appreciate it very much

-User:Storkian

Well, you can't have the MK dragon in the template, as it is a copyrighted image. How about User:EVula/Userboxes/MK fan? EVula 18:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

RE from Storkian:

That works too... :-). Can you like maybe make a category named "Wikipedians who like Mortal Kombat" or something so whoever adds this template to their page they get added to that list? You are very helpful.

Navigation Template

Whoever split the navigation Template for the entire MK series in half, fix it back. It was better the old way and much easier to navigate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Donco (talk • contribs)

The template was split (not by me) to address concerns that it was far too large, a concern I happen to agree with. Do you have any suggestions for a unified, but smaller, template? EVula 17:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

At the very least, we ought to at least put a link to a media category or somesuch in the template - from what I can tell, none of the video/film productions are accessible within two clicks of that template (other than going through a character, of course). Personally, I think the primary reason the template was so large, the character roster, isn't that necessary, and ought to be removed - it can easily be replaced with a link to List of Mortal Kombat characters or somesuch.

Note: copied over from Talk:Mortal Kombat (series). Virogtheconq 18:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

About the template split

It seems that the old template was split into two: MK Media and MK Universe. However, I highly disagree with this change, and there doesn't appear to have even been a discussion regarding this beforehand. It is now much more difficult to navigate between the characters/universe stuff and the games themselves. Someone looking up Liu Kang and wanting to jump straight to the article covering the original MK game will have to muddle through his page looking for one link. Likewise, someone looking up one of the games and wanting to jump directly to one of the characters will have a hard time (Especially if the character isn't in that particular game). I propose the following changes so the templates can be combined:

Remove individual listings of all the factions and simply include a "Factions" link under the Information heading. This is what had been done in the template long ago, and I'm not quite sure what was the reason for the change.
Remove the individual listings of the television shows and include a "Television" link under the Other heading. The TV shows have been gone for some time now, and, although I happen to like both of them quite heartily, I don't think it's necessary to list both of them in the template.
Remove the individual listings of the films and include a "Films" link under the Other heading. This is also how it had been in the template long ago. Yes, I know Devastation is upcoming and somewhat significant, but as of now, there's almost no information on the subject. The other two movies are quite old by now, and not really worthy of being included directly in the template. All the films, as a whole, aren't really vital to the MK series.
Remove the somewhat redundant "Mortal Kombat" from many of the game titles. I've seen this done in another template somewhere, simply referring to the games in the template by their subtitle (i.e. just Armageddon as opposed to Mortal Kombat: Armageddon). On a typical screen resolution of 1074x768, this saves about two lines in the template.

Total, these changes removes about eight lines from the template in a screen resolution of 1024x768 (Compare with this). It might still look large, but I think this is made up by the all the information it is able to encompass in such a relatively small amount of space. Anyway, I feel this is much more manageable overall. Here is an example of what the template would look like with my proposed changes:

The Mortal Kombat Universe

Principal Games
Mortal Kombat \| Mortal Kombat II \| Mortal Kombat 3 \| Mortal Kombat 4 \| Deadly Alliance \| Deception \| Armageddon
Updates and Ports
Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 \| Trilogy \| Gold \| Advance \| Tournament Edition \| Unchained
Adventure Games
Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Sub-Zero \| Mortal Kombat: Special Forces \| Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks
Main Characters
Ashrah \| Baraka \| Blaze \| Bo' Rai Cho \| Chameleon \| Cyrax \| Daegon \| Dairou \| Darrius \| Drahmin \| Ermac \| Frost \| Fujin \| Goro \| Havik \| Hotaru \| Hsu Hao \| Jade \| Jarek \| Jax \| Johnny Cage \| Kabal \| Kai \| Kano \| Kenshi \| Khameleon \| Kintaro \| Kira \| Kitana \| Kobra \| Kung Lao \| Li Mei \| Liu Kang \| Mavado \| Meat \| Mileena \| Mokap \| Moloch \| Motaro \| Nightwolf \| Nitara \| Noob Saibot \| Onaga \| Quan Chi \| Raiden \| Rain \| Reiko \| Reptile \| Sareena \| Scorpion \| Sektor \| Shang Tsung \| Shao Kahn \| Sheeva \| Shinnok \| Shujinko \| Sindel \| Smoke \| Sonya \| Stryker \| Sub-Zero \| Tanya \| Taven
Information
Minor characters \| Factions \| Realms \| Species \| Arenas \| Glossary \| Konquest mode \| Storyline
Other
Films \| Television \| Tour \| Gallery \| Comics \| Music \| Card Game \| Actors

Also, this actually takes up less vertical space than the Soul Calibur template, which only covers an exceedingly smaller amount of information. In your face, competing franchise! MarphyBlack 19:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion for the change came from an over-arching discussion on the CVG project talk page (I saw it in my watchlist, but didn't participate in the actual discussion because I never had the time).

Personally, I'm largely in favor of the cut-back to the template, if only because it had actually gotten too big. Your trimmed-back version, above, looks nice, and addresses the concerns that prompted the split in the first place. I've taken it one step forward, however; I reduced the font size for the character listings to 90%, which helps kill a bit more space.

And yes, booya to Soul Calibur. {{Street Fighter series}} can also suck it. EVula 19:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I cannot stress enough how much I dislike the template split, especially the fact that the discussion and the subsequent changes happened without informing this project beforehand. I understand that the "Universe" template was big, but it was very handy, for the reasons that MarphyBlack gave. The pros outweighed the cons, in my view. For that reason, I'd be more than happy to use the template that's displayed above. RobWill80 20:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree. I find the split very inconvieniant (excuse the spelling). Instead of typing in the name of a game or something when I was on a character article, I would just scroll down and use the template, and vice versa. In order to compensate for what I am describing, we would have to put both templates on all pages, which is ridiculous, we may as well just revert back to the old template and put that on, so please can we just go back to the old one? There was absolutly nothing wrong with it, all it was was a slightly bit large, but so what? There are tons of templates across Wikipedia that are far larger. I mean, it's not like a large template is harming anyone. This template split sucks. The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 20:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Template fixed, articles fixed, media template up for deletion. That was fun. EVula 17:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Thankyou, EVula. Why that happened in the first place, I don't know. Glad that the original one has been restored! The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 20:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the old one was getting a little long in the tooth, and on the plus side, we've got a better template out of all this back and forth. Everybody wins! :-) As it is, I think I'll try tweaking the template (a duplicate) to see if I can maximize it just a bit more. EVula 20:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

This is just an idea... but would it be possible to split (oops, poor choice of words! :) ) the info into two columns? There's a bit of space at the sides of some sections. If, say, the "main characters" and the "information" were on the right hand side... would that help to bring the height down a little? RobWill80 22:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

That would make the layout a little confusing, since it wouldn't be linear anymore.

Anyone have any comments on whether or not the (ginormous) list of characters should stay? Virogtheconq 02:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think it should; the characters are one of the most important parts of the franchise, but picking individual characters to list would be unfair in my opinion. EVula 05:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

After playing with the template a bit...

I tried laying out the template horizontally, rather than vertically. Not so sure how I feel about it, but I'd rather get some feedback on my hard, hard work (read: about five minutes) rather than just trash it.

v • d • e Mortal Kombat series

Fighting games	Mortal Kombat · MKII · MK3 / Ultimate MK3 / MK Trilogy · MK4 / MK Gold · Deadly Alliance / Tournament Edition · Deception / Unchained · Armageddon · MK vs. DC Universe

Adventure games	Mythologies: Sub-Zero · Special Forces · Shaolin Monks

Information	Main characters · Minor characters · Fatality

Film/TV	Mortal Kombat · Annihilation · Devastation · The Journey Begins · Conquest · Defenders of the Realm

Other	Comics · Live Tour · Music · Card Game

Thoughts? Opinions? Revulsion and profanity, coupled with death threats? EVula 05:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

*Insert choice profanity here* It's not actually that bad, since there are a number of other series templates which use a similar format (I guess the operative phrase here would be "at worst mediocre"). It definitely cuts down on the required space, which is good. That being said, the original one was far more pretty. I guess it ultimately boils down to if we want utility (this one) or presentation (the original) - that's something where some outside opinions (CVG?) may come in handy. Virogtheconq 06:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind how it looks, providing that it is as useful as the original. However, I like the look of this one better. Moving the grey bars makes it look like there's more space than the original. RobWill80 21:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I personally preffered the look of the other one, but I really don't care about how it looks, as long as it does the job, and this one seems to do it more efficiantly, so we may as well keep EVula's template. The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 21:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

About two weeks later, I remembered this and nobody has voiced any objections, so I'm throwing the switch. {{Mortal Kombat series}} EVula // talk // ☯ // 19:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I have one little comment, You know those little lines, use them to seperate the sections.

^These...---- Made like this! Lego3400: The Sage of Time 23:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

This is what you're asking for:

*The Mortal Kombat* Universe**
Principal Games	Mortal Kombat - Mortal Kombat II - Mortal Kombat 3 - Mortal Kombat 4 - Deadly Alliance - Deception - Armageddon
Updates and Ports	Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 - Trilogy - Gold - Advance - Tournament Edition - Unchained
Adventure Games	Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Sub-Zero - Mortal Kombat: Special Forces - Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks
Main Characters	Ashrah - Baraka - Blaze - Bo' Rai Cho - Chameleon - Cyrax - Daegon - Dairou - Darrius - Drahmin - Ermac - Frost - Fujin - Goro - Havik - Hotaru - Hsu Hao - Jade - Jarek - Jax - Johnny Cage - Kabal - Kai - Kano - Kenshi - Khameleon - Kintaro - Kira - Kitana - Kobra - Kung Lao - Li Mei - Liu Kang - Mavado - Meat - Mileena - Mokap - Moloch - Motaro - Nightwolf - Nitara - Noob Saibot - Onaga - Quan Chi - Raiden - Rain - Reiko - Reptile - Sareena - Scorpion - Sektor - Shang Tsung - Shao Kahn - Sheeva - Shinnok - Shujinko - Sindel - Smoke - Sonya - Stryker - Sub-Zero - Tanya - Taven
Information	Minor characters - Factions - Realms - Species - Arenas - Glossary - Konquest mode - Storyline
Other	Films - Television - Tour - Gallery - Comics - Music - Card Game - Actors

...which I actually don't like as much. For such large expanses of copy, I think its better to let the eye draw the areas of distinction than to do it in the template. If we had more multi-line sections (like Main Characters), perhaps, but with the lines, the single-line content with multi-line headings (such as Updates and Ports) looks awfully open and bare. EVula // talk // ☯ // 15:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Infoboxes

Is there a way to alter the infobox so that it does not cut off the bottom part of the character's name? I was looking at Liu Kang's page and it kind of looks like it says "Liu Kano" above the pic. I know the article still says "Liu Kang" at the top, but the 'box kind of irks me a little. -サターン・ヨッシー ^{HAPPY HALLOWEEN} 10:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry mate, I can see the tail end of the "g" in the infobox (using IE7). Is it just the MK infoboxes you're having trouble with? RobWill80 14:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I figured out the problem. It's the "skin" that I chose under preferences. I use the cologne blue one. Okay, disregard what I said then. -サターン・ヨッシー ^{HAPPY HALLOWEEN} 15:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm using cologne blue and I can see the "g" of the tail. The S 18:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Strategy Guide information // Stable resource

I just happened to stumble across a relatively new wiki called WikiKnowledge. One of the things that is allowed there is game guide material. Would it perhaps be a worthwhile investment of time if we were to create a comprehensive gaming guide for everything there? I'm talking about characters and games (moves, cheats, etc.). When users add that stuff to the Wikipedia articles, we could defer them to the WikiKnowledge guide instead. Also, it could become a worthwhile (and standardized) external link for most of the articles.

That said, it could also be a major pain in the ass to set up, with very little actual value being added to the project on the whole. :-)

So, anyway, just thought I'd bring it to everyone's attention. I'm not going to do it solo (since I'm actually working on starting my own wiki elsewhere), but if anyone else thinks this would be a good idea, I'd be happy to pitch in. EVula 21:19, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a good idea, and I'd be happy to help. I think there would have to be links in every game and character article, or a few editors won't take notice of any other directions to use that site instead. Once finished, there should be less hassle around here... RobWill80 22:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Basiclly, ditto. Yeah I would be ready to help out also. The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 22:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, crap. Right now I'm not sure how much I can do; I'm up for adminship (oh yes, I'm excited), so I need to see how much that will impact my wiki-time before I overload myself and go (completely) bonkers. :-)

If I get a mop, I figure I could start working on stuff in mid-January; if not, I could probably start doing some light work on it in mid-November. Really, the biggest hassle will just be figuring out how to effectively lay out all the information. EVula 23:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Tbh, EVula, I think it's about time you were up for becoming an Admin. Off topic here, you've done a shite load for this project, and from what I can tell, a thousand other articles. You have my support, because quite frankly, I can't think of anyone better for the job right now. And back on the proper subject, as I said, I'll help out where I can. The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 00:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Ego...growing...

What's really funny is that I hadn't played Mortal Kombat in quite a long time. I got involved in the project by just happening to look up what had happened in franchise since I stopped paying attention to it. Funny how Wikipedia can just suck you right in. :-) EVula 05:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yay! Adminship for the EVula! That's something I'd never see for myself... too many conflicts with Admins on Wikipedia's "fancruft" policy... But I definately think you deserve it! The S 16:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The best of luck with your RfA, EVula... but judging from the support you've got, you won't need it! And I'll still help out with the guide, whenever we get around to writing it. RobWill80 14:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

"Fighting styles" section

Recently a new sub-section was added to the "Combat characteristics" heading called "Fighting styles" to a few characters' articles (See Ermac, Reiko, and Tanya). I was a bit confused by this addition at first, but then I realized that this is actually mentioned the MK article style guide. I just wanted to say that I feel opposed to such a section, as there is very little that can be said about the fighting styles of each character other than what style they had in what game (Something already covered in the infobox). Any more information than this could constitute original research or be on the verge of making the articles look like a game guide. Is there any particular reason for needing the "Fighting styles" sub-section? MarphyBlack 23:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't think of a reason to keep this section. It can only serve to list a character's fighting styles, and repeat the infobox. Anything else I can think of would be against Wikipedia guidelines, or defeat the purpose of having articles on martial arts. So, I wouldn't mind if the sections on fighting styles were removed. RobWill80 00:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad. I added that on a whim, thinking "hmm, it'd be nice if we could say something about this", not fully realizing that it's almost impossible to do as much. :) EVula // talk // ☯ // 06:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I added them, thinking it wouldn't be against style guide, and I too, thought that it would be cool actually. However, it may be against Wikipedia rules, as you mentioned. If it is O.K., I can keep adding them and encourage other people to adding them, but if it's not, we can remove them anytime.Master Spider 14:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Armageddon story info from John Vogel

I'm currently observing Mortal Kombat Online's Fight Night thing (Where the MK team is answering questions from the fans), and I just thought it would be useful to some here to see some of the more relevant story info being given by John Vogel (Irrelevant stuff not included):

<DArqueBishop> Daniel W. Clark asks, "Hi Ed, it's me: the MK Kontest winner. Looking forward to facing you one on one in San Francisco in a couple of weeks! Anyway, here's my question: How did the Mortal Kombat: Deception storyline resolve itself? (i.e. did Shujinko stop Onaga? Did Onaga find someway to ressurect every kombatant using the amulet and kamidogus? etc.) Thanks and prepare yourself!"
<John-Vogel> Onaga was defeated primarily by shujinko. There are hints in a couple of the endings as to how it played out.
<]{0MBAT> Did the Kamidogus get smashed? Did Dark Raiden ever get in a fight with Shujinko?
<John-Vogel> the kamidogus used in deception were destroyed (like in the gameplay) to weaken onaga
<John-Vogel> they were the source of Onaga's power during that period
<John-Vogel> onaga didn't ressurect everyone
<John-Vogel> sontimes people are only THOUGHT to be dead
<John-Vogel> some are ressurected by other means
<]{0MBAT> How are Reptile and Onaga separated?
<John-Vogel> there is a clue in Sindel's ending from Deception that shows that Onaga's soul can be taken from Reptile... which allows reptile to revert back to himself..
<M4C> On a related note, shinken asks, "Are the MKA bios going to be released online?"
<John-Vogel> Sindel's ending is not real.. i'm just showin ya stuff...
<John-Vogel> nightwolf's ending plays a part as well
<Ed-Boon> Yes. We are going to be releasing the bio's on www.mkarmageddon.com
<John-Podlasek> Yeah, in the forums section....
<Ed-Boon> > You will get the answers to all the questions you've had concerning the Armageddon storyline and perhaps even hints as to where it goes next

Some juicy bits here. While I'm sure the full transcript will be up later, this can be a mini-Wiki exclusive for the short duration. :P

On Khameleon:

<]{0MBAT> A lot of people are asking about (the female) Khameleon and her not appearing in the game. Why was she ommitted?
<Ed-Boon> Actually we originally were not going to be including ANY of the Chameleon characters, or Motaro. But we had SO MANY people ask for them that we decided to add them. Steve Beran created the model in a super short amount of time and Pav (Kovakik) created Motaro super fast as well. In retrospect, I wish we had the time to make Khameleon as well. But we hope 62 characters was enough for you.
<]{0MBAT> Any plans of including her on the Wii?
<Ed-Boon> I wouldn't put $$ on it.
<John-Podlasek> Wii'll see
<John-Vogel> 8\
<]{0MBAT> John (Vogel)... how about the female Saurian in Reptile's ending?
<John-Podlasek> And to think I'm totally sober....
<Ed-Boon> I do admit it would be Wii-lee cool
<]{0MBAT> Was the Khameleon? Or the matriarch of Reptile's race? (Or both...?)
<John-Vogel> The female that appears is most likely a new matriarch. Reptile has been bummin for a long time about his race being wiped out.. we though it would be cool to allow him to finally get things started again.. and another race of ninjas is always a good thing...

MarphyBlack 03:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

So there are going to be bios that explain what happened to the fighters before Armageddon. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 03:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Full transcript: http://www.mortalkombatwarehouse.com/FightNight2006.html. The only other story tidbit is related to Fujin intervening Taven at the Red Dragon base. Everything else is mainly Armageddon gameplay mechanics/features related. MarphyBlack 03:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Article assessment

Your project was set up to take part in article assessment according to the criteria of the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 editorial team about a month ago. As of today, you have yet to actually assess any articles. Clearly, we welcome any project engaging in this sort of assessment, but would have to wonder about whether your project is interested in engaging in such assessment. On that basis, I would request that members of your project begin assessing the articles within the scope of your project, both for yourselves, the Version 1.0 team, and wikipedia in general. If you have any questions about assessments, please feel free to contact me directly. Thank you. Badbilltucker 17:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, no articles have been assessed because I (the only person to work on it) never finished completing the backend stuff, having gotten sidetracked with other editing duties (no clue what it was, though). I'll see about finishing up the work I started, though. EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

You have no idea how much I sympathize with you on being sidetracked. If you want any help organizing the assessment, though, just let me know and I'll see what I can do to help. Badbilltucker 18:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Naming of episode articles in List of Mortal Kombat Conquest episodes

Greetings, Mortal Kombat editors!

As you may be aware, for the last several weeks there has been extensive discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television) about how Wikipedia articles on television episodes should be named. Editors from many areas of Wikipedia, including members of several different television WikiProjects, have worked together and come up with a general guideline that article titles should include disambiguating phrases only when there is another article on Wikipedia with the same name as the episode name. Thus, if you were creating episode articles for Knight Rider, the episode Circus Knights would not need any disambiguation, whereas Nobody Does It Better (Knight Rider) would, in order to differentiate it from Nobody Does It Better (song). However, the guideline also recommends that Circus Knights (Knight Rider) exist as a redirect to the episode.

This means the episode articles linked from List of Mortal Kombat Conquest episodes will be moved if they are using unneeded disambiguation.

The discussion has been fairly well-advertised at the Village Pump, in many WikiProjects' talk pages and on the talk pages of many television program episode lists. However, the editors contributing to the discussion at WP:TV-NC felt that it was appropriate to make one last call at affected WikiProjects for discussion before people started moving episode articles to new names.

We appreciate the work that editors do in every area of Wikipedia, and want you to feel included in the decision-making process. Thank you for your help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaksha (talk • contribs)

Having never been one to wait for someone else to do it, I've gone through the table and moved the appropriate articles, and fixed the links. EVula // talk // ☯ // 04:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Request for comment - naming of episode articles

There is currently an active debate at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television) about the naming of episode articles, such as when it is appropriate to use a suffix such as (<series name> episode), and whether or not WikiProjects should have the right to set guidelines for their particular shows. Any interested editors are invited to comment, at Wikipedia_talk:Naming conventions (television)#Request for comment. --Elonka 09:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that's not what's being debated. The issue is whether wikiprojects can set guidlines that contradict the global guidelines of wikipedia. There hasn't been a single argument that wikiprojects shouldn't have the right to make their own guidelines. --Milo H Minderbinder 14:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandal crackdown

Now that I'm an admin (mwuhahaha), I can be a bit more pro-active in taking care of vandals. However, I need some help from you guys (trying to avoid saying "y'all"). When you revert vandalism, please warn the user (even if its an anon) with an appropriate warning tag. Tagging repeat vandals with the proper warnings helps make it very easy to justify my banning of the user.

For example, Mr. 70.162.68.87 has had some fun over at Blaze (Mortal Kombat), getting reverted first by SaturnYoshi, then by MarphyBlack. After the first time, I warned him with {{test2}}. Once it became obvious he was a bit of an idiot, I kicked it up a notch with {{test4}}. Next time he vandalizes, he'll be getting a nice fat ban, which will also help me get drunk with power... if the latter part is disconcerting, just ignore it. ;-)

So, anyway, please start warning the vandals. I'll almost certainly see your "vandalism" summaries in my watchlist and will try to watch the warned editor; if I see that final warning get applied, I'll be sure to jump on them the next time they vandalize. EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed for a while that people will revert vandalism, but not really warn the vandal about it afterwards. I warn the vandals as much as I can, but there's only really been one vandal who has continually made attacks on certain MK pages (well, one that I'm really opposing), and the main reason that little can be done about him is because he constantly changes his IP. But anyway, yeah, I warn vandal's as frequently as possible, so I'll help you out whenever I can, and taddle on them if they carry on ;) The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 22:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The first time he/she was reverted, I thought the person was misinformed. Afterwards he/she stated that a pic in X-Box Magazine calls Blaze Meat. Should we leave a warning after their first edit, or wait until it repeats? -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 22:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, but I haven't issued any warnings before. It's a mental thing - I'm used to judging edits, but not editors, if you follow me *shrugs*. Anyway, if I spot any vandalism, I'll warn the editor. RobWill80 01:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Yay, I got my first ban in today, for a user that Rob had warned. EVula // talk // ☯ // 17:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

That was the first user I've warned... and they bloody ignored me! Ha! Good work, EVula. :) RobWill80 19:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Reclassifying "recurring" fatalities

For a while now, a lot of us have been removing the Deception-only fatalities in character articles because they only appeared in that one game. However, Mortal Kombat: Unchained has just been recently released, and it's basically just Deception with extra characters, meaning that their fatalities finally do recurr by appearing in more than one game. However, I don't quite agree with this logic. I believe that we need to reconsider what we are defining as "recurring" (Or perhaps drop the whole "recurring" thing and devise a new title. More on that later). As of now, we are considering MK3, UMK3, and MKT as separate games. I don't quite agree with this, as they're all essentially the same game being upgraded. The same goes for MK4 and MKG. I believe that the separate games we should actually count should be as follows:

Mortal Kombat
Mortal Kombat II
Mortal Kombat 3 / Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 / Mortal Kombat Trilogy
Mortal Kombat 4 / Mortal Kombat Gold
Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance / Tournament Edition (Only applies to TE-exclusive characters, if they even have fatalities in the game)
Mortal Kombat: Deception / Unchained
Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Sub-Zero
Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks

Rather unfortunately, by using this system, that means several characters simply will not have any recurring fatalities. For example, Kabal's fatalities in MK3 do not appear again in Deception. Obviously, characters introduced in Deception will have nothing. This is where the conflict comes in, and perhaps worthy of a discussion. MarphyBlack 21:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more when it comes to MKT, MK3 and UMK3 all being the same, and counting it (as well as 4 and G) as separate games when it came to this has annoyed me greatly. Personally, I agree completely with what your saying, even if it means some characters don't get any Fatalities down at all... but really, does it matter? I mean, is listing all of their fatalities really that encyclopedic? If it were up to me, I'd leave them in, but do as you proposed, even if it means some characters lose their fatalities. The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 21:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I'd suggest that the notation is changed (in fatalities and signature moves), to try to get this point across to those who don't read this page. I'll take Liu Kang as an example. Instead of using this notation: "Dragon... (MKII, MK3, UMK3, MKT, MK4, MKG, MK:SM)", we could use this notation (or similar): "Dragon... (MKII, MK3 +updates, MK4 +update, MK:SM)". RobWill80 16:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with this grouping 100%. As it turns out, only a handful of characters have "true" recurring Fatalities.

Baraka (impale)
Cyrax (self destruct)
Jax (head pop)
Johnny Cage (decap uppercut)
Kano (heart rip)
Kitana (decap and kiss (varies))
Kung Lao (hat throw (varies))
Liu Kang (dragon and roundhouse uppercut)
Mileena (inhale and nail spit)
Raiden (shock explode)
Reptile (acid bath (varies))
Scorpion (toasty)
Sektor (flame thrower)
Shang Tsung (soul steal (varies))
Sonya (kiss (varies))
Sub-Zero (freeze and shatter (varies))

I may have missed some, but this is only about one quarter of all the main characters. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 09:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

To further expand on what Rob said, I think it'd be fine as he put it, except leaving out the '+updates' part. We should do what is done across the articles, and (in the case of Liu Kang) simply put:

"Dragon... (MKII, MKT, MKG, MK:SM)"

Therefore choosing the most recent of the updates. I mean this in the sense that when explaining the plot of certain characters, we have said something like "During the events of Mortal Kombat Gold" or the same, but with Trilogy. Therefore, we are picking the most recent of the updates, as they all follow the same events. The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 13:09, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that for the sake of simplicity, we should just keep listing all games rather than just one update. There are a few very strange anomolies where a character doesn't have a particular characteristic in a previous update in a game: for example, Stryker's gun move appeared in first appeared UMK3 and not MK3 (I know we're talking about fatalities, but just bear with me :P ). There are also characters introduced in UMK3 and MKG who did not appear in the previous game version, so for the benefit of those who are not familiar with all the Mortal Kombat games, listing all of them would be most helpful.

Anyway, I also wanted to say that I believe there are also certain exceptions to this "non-recurring" fatalities rule. For instance, the heart rip fatality is signature to many Black Dragon members, but only Kano had it in more than one game (Jarek and Kobra both only had it in one game). This is pretty insignificant, though, so I'll just leave it at that for now. MarphyBlack 20:25, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, I'd just like to say that I think the fatalaties is a bit unenclyclopedic anyway. To avoid this mess, we probably should get rid of them.... but I'm cool with them staying here. The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 20:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

If we keep these in, I'd be more comfortable if all of the games a move appeared in are listed. I'm concerned that only using an update (especially the one-console exclusives) could encourage edits where the (more common) original is added (if that particular character or move is in the original). Perhaps we could keep the notation as it is, but group the updates together with a slash: "Dragon... (MKII, MK3/UMK3/MKT, MK4/MKG, MK:SM)". Characters or moves which are not in an original title would still have that title omitted from the listing. RobWill80 21:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I've got a question here. Are Deception and Deadly Alliance (Jax, Kitana and Frost only) fatalities are considered as recurring? They are also appeared on Unchained too? Master Spider 15:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Attire sections?

Should we have attire or appearance sections for each character, like Street Fighter characters had? We would write how did they got image makeovers, and it would contribute to all character articles I think. Opinions appreciated. Master Spider 17:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Just mentioning their clothing? I dunno, not only does it appear a bit unencyclopedic to me, but it also seems to be a bit of a waste. I mean, I can barely stand the damn Finisher and Moves list being there, due to all the edit wars and it's unencyclopedic nature, this just sounds somewhat irrelevant to me. Sorry if I shot down your idea, it would be interesting, but it doesn't really add to an encyclopedia. The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 18:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, covering the development of the characters through the various games (which would include their costumes) could be fairly cool (and could be encyclopedic, if handled properly). For example, a section about Kabal could mention how he was initially a neutral character in MK3, and how his hookswords were only visible during extended combos, or how Sindel was more of an evil character when she was introduced (at least, that's how I saw it). EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I was actually thinking of doing that for the characters in lieu of a full rewrite, since it falls into a decent out-of-universe entry. Virog^{It's not}_{my fault!} 05:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I thought it could be turn out as encyclopedic too. For example, on Rain's article, it can be mentioned that why he changed his attire from classic ninja suit to a more royal-oriented attire (because he learned his Edenian heritage), or why Li Mei started to wear armor (gained it from Dragon King's army, as her soul was already transported to them). And, not also clothing, but noticeable changes at overall looks-for example, Bo' Rai Cho has a beard unlike Deadly Alliance, Tanya has long hair unlike MK4, etc. EVula's idea would be good also. Master Spider 15:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

When you put it like Spider just did, I'm more open to the idea - it does sound pretty interesting. The Haunted Angel ^{(The Forest Whispers My Name)} 22:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. We can add these info under the subtitle "Appearance", which fits best. Here's an example of what it could have been look like:

Along her presentations at Deadly Alliance and Deception, Li Mei mostly wears clothes which reveals most of her body. In Deception, due to her almost-successful soul transport to Onaga's army, she wears more battle-oriented and armor like clothes.

Li Mei had a large face makeover between Deadly Alliance and Deception. In Deadly Alliance, she had big, green eyes and big lips, however, in Deception she had small, brown eyes and smaller lips. Her alternate costume in Deception still keeps her Deadly Alliance face model.

Li Mei looks vaguely Asian, like most Outworld residents.

Any ideas and such? Master Spider 16:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, isn't there anybody responding? Master Spider 15:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been busy with other stuff lately and haven't been giving MK stuff the same attention that I used to.

I think that looks good, and is a good starting point for the other characters (like Reptile, who could have a considerable amount written about his evolution). EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! Then I'm adding it to the style guide, if it is okay, and starting to writing info to Li Mei. It shouldn't be too hard for most of the characters, especially the ones that have a makeover for Armageddon. I'll start to write in light-speed. :) Master Spider 17:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I have added an "Appearance" section to the style guide. Only Li Mei and Sareena has this section for now, but it is only a beginning for now. I hope it will work better. Master Spider 17:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

What to Include re: hidden characters

Should it be included for each game in the section detailing the hidden characters how to activate battles against them? It's not in there now, and it would be pretty short, so it seems that it could be added without causing any damage. But is this sort of info considered to be desirable? -Sopoforic 22:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Documenting the existence of hidden characters is encyclopedic, whereas stating the exact way to find them is borderline game guide, which Wikipedia is not. EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The policy here states that Wikipedia is not a game guide, so it's best to avoid such information since it isn't quite encyclopedic. However, I would say that there are a few exceptions, such as mentioning the quite infamous requirements necessary to fight Reptile in the original arcade game. I'm sure that some of these unlocking methods are already mentioned for whatever reason, but generally they should be avoided if they're simply being indiscriminately stated. MarphyBlack 22:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

No progress

I marked up MK pages with more then 6 trivia the other day. I said back in September there is too much trivia on the pages yet nothing (hardly) has been done. Really, if the information in the trivia section is THAT important to keep, write it into the main article. A trivia section should consist of no more then half a dozen facts that don't tie into the main article, not a whole page of 15 (in some cases) or more trivia bits of info. Surely, in that amount of trivia 3 or 4 of them can tie together anyway to be placed n the main article.

If you can't write it into the article, decide on whether or not its really important to keep it at all. The huge trivia on some of the pages is bringing down those pages quality and is a poor way of displaying the information at the least.

Someone try and sort this out, it really won't take that long to do. Angel Emfrbl 10:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Given that there's 60-some character pages, plus all the associated game/media pages (which all suffer from the same problems, IMO), it's more than "not that long." Agreed it needs to be fixed, but it's something I've been putting off due to the sheer size of the project. Virog^{It's not}_{my fault!} 19:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The trivia is getting so annoying. The MKII article's Trivia got cut down considerably, so what do people do? They start adding it to the "Easter eggs" section! Buzda 20:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

There's a major push for the removal of all trivia from all articles, which I'm strongly against. Sorry, but sometimes trivia isn't evil. Yes, some of the trivia could be trimmed, but the out-right removal of the section is silly.

As for MKII, what's the problem? If we're supposed to spin out related trivia items into their own sections, and someone did exactly that, what exactly is the problem? EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not with the guys against the trivia sections on articles, I kinda like having trivias, but I think there is a limit to how much trivia you can have. You don't have to delete the whole trivia section, just write it into the main article, keeping only about half a dozen things that just don't fit in no matter what. As I said, with 15 trivia tad-bits, some of it must link together enough to fit into the main article. Angel Emfrbl

Add Revisions section to MK arcade games?

What do you think? Buzda 20:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so, because it'd be a very listy-type section (generally not a great idea), and not very encyclopedic, since all it basically entails is gameplay differences (aside from fixing crash issues, etc.). It'd be better to have one or two sentences describing the difference between the initial arcade release and the final revision in the general summary. Virog^{It's not}_{my fault!} 20:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Just out of curiousity, were any really significant changes made with the arcade revisions? I know a few big ones were made with MK4, but I haven't heard of much on any of the revisions for the previous arcade games. Were the console ports based on any particular revisions? MarphyBlack 17:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

MKII had a series of revisions as well, one of which was to fix the "Babality glitch". There is an external link with more info on this on the Babality page. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 17:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Some innacuracies and an observation

I have some issues with the accuracy of the character articles. So far 3 have drew my attention as of now (also, if this is mentioned in some source I'm not aware, please inform me):

Baraka: Their second chance at obtaining power, after Mileena was resurrected during the events of Mortal Kombat Trilogy, failed as well.

Since when they have a 2nd attempt? Baraka's MKT profile AND ending doesn't mention this, and while Mileena's UMK3 ending did have Baraka as partner, that was later retconned in favor of a Shinnok-related ending. Baraka's ending states he fell in disfavor after letting some Earthrealm warriors escape, so he planned to attack a weakened Shao Kahn after out of fear for his punishment (which could very well be true as it doesn't contradict anything, since he would not have a chance due to Shao Kahn's defeat at Liu Kang's hands). I'd change the story, but I don't know if this would be right. Either this or remove that phrase, since the latest installment of the MK3 history (MKT) doesn't mention any interaction between the two.

Mokap: His article says he fought on the Deadly Alliance tournament and survived the battle at the opening of Deception. There's no place that I know where that is stated, as Mokap in DA was supposed to be on Earthrealm. I know his new story of being randomly teleported, but that wouldn't mean he participated in any of those events. Unless proof of his participation exists, I would suggest a change. Also, his DA profile is no canon, since "Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance" the film never existed, unless Onaga-controlled Johnny had time to make it :P. State it was his original profile, now retconned, or remove it.

Sheeva: Where is stated she lost to Kitana and Jade, she found Shao Khan betraying the Shokan and her joining the failed Shokan counterattack? At the very least, she did found Shao Kahn punished the Shokan out to favour the Centaurs (as her ending states), but unless there's some place where her Kitana/Jade battle occured, I think her story should be rewrote.

And as last, a little observation on Shang Tsung: Shao Kahn in the official MK2 comic (the one wrote by Tobias), he states Shang Tsung died in Earthrealm, and that his rejuvenation would prove a "reborn" on Outworld. Here's a transcript:

Shao Kahn - "...Shang Tsung, your life no longer exists in the Earth Realm. Therefore, I will grant you a new physical form. One that will replenish your powers of sorcery and fool the Earth Gods into allowing your soul through the dimensional gate."

Dunno, though it would be worth for his history or atleast make for an interesting Trivia point and clarification on his Earthrealm/Outworld status. Though that doesn't help the plothole with Bo'Rai Cho...

Well, awaiting the help on these matters. Thanks. 201.255.15.94 02:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You are definitely right about Mileena and Sheeva. These two points don't seem to be based on any real facts; the former being based on her old retconned UMK3 ending and the latter seemingly simply being made up. I'll remove them as such. However, Mokap's Deadly Alliance bio is a bit of a mystery. I have yet to see an actual bio of a character be considered non-canon (unless totally retconned), especially since the bios are supposed to be covering the past/already occurred events of the character in the storyline by that point in time. While Mokap may be a joke character, some recently revealed events may hint that his bio could be true. Specifically, both Kitana's and Jax's bios in the PSP game MK: Unchained reveal that they and the rest of Liu Kang's friends were freed from Onaga's control before the final battle with Onaga himself occurred. It's not really clear how much time passed between Deadly Alliance and Deception, but it's quite possible and even somewhat logical to deduce that Mokap's bio could have occurred shortly after the events of DA, after the Deception intro, but before Onaga was defeated. In fact, this could even explain Johnny Cage's (and to a lesser extent, Mokap's) absence from Unchained (He was making his rad new movie at the time. Also, he probably had to make that other movie that's advertised in Armageddon's subway stage). I know this seems like a whole lot of assuming, but unless it was outright retconned, I don't think we should be deciding what bios are or are not canon. At this point, I'm sure much of the Mortal Kombat storyline should be taken with a grain of salt.

As for Shang Tsung, that's an interesting point. However, I'm not so sure if that's truly confirming that he died. Shao Kahn may simply mean that the concept of "life" as we know it and whatnot is different in Outworld, thus the regular rules don't apply there. If Shang Tsung had really died and somehow were revived, thus changing his origin, I believe that he would probably have gone to the Netherealm rather than Outworld as this seemed to be the game's established afterworld by that point in the story. Still, this is somewhat grasping at straws over an issue that will most likely not be clarified any time soon. I doubt Tobias had planned for Shang Tsung's confused true place of origin, much less Bo' Rai Cho's plot point this far ahead of time.

Anyway, I think what you have brought up has been helpful. If you see anything else inaccurate, I encourage you to point it out as well. Of course, don't forget that you can also edit the articles yourself, but I don't mind the discussion. :) MarphyBlack 23:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

After doing a bit of reading, it seems that Sheeva's MK3 ending may be true up until the point at which she kills Shao Kahn (With her being stabbed through the chest by Kahn with a sword instead. Same difference). This would mean that Kahn truly did turn against the Shokan in an offensive against them, helping the side of the Centaurs. This part of the ending would explain why the Shokan and Centaurs are at complete war against each other and in talks of a peace treaty in the MK4 comic (One Centaur claims to Kitana that she's "no better than Shao Kahn," possibly referring to Kahn's support and false promises to the race) and this ending also explains how Kitana was able to ally with the Shokan against Kahn's armies in Deadly Alliance (Since he turned against them, this would be no surprise). In this case, I'm removing the Kitana and Jade part from Sheeva's article, but the part about her finding Kahn turning against her race appears to be true. More views on this are welcome. MarphyBlack 00:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Glad that helped. That was my idea with Sheeva. I think that most first parts from endings (as long as they are not contradicting stated facts) can be considered canon. I did think that Sheeva's first part is canon, more or less for what you said. I also think Baraka's MKT ending first half is as well, since that would explain why he left Shao Kahn instead of staying with him, and then he lost his chance due to Liu Kang's beating him first. And I see what you said with Mokap, though I was more troubled by the next:

It is unknown how Mokap entered the tournament that Shang Tsung and Quan Chi had presented. According to Mortal Kombat: Deception's Konquest mode, he doesn't even know how he ended up in Outworld. Regardless of how he competed in the tournament, he fought for the side of Earthrealm. Although all of Earthrealm's fighters were killed by the Deadly Alliance (and revived by Onaga), Mokap returned unharmed.

Those are my grieves. Mokap has yet to be stated entering the tournament of the DA (I assume its a reference to the tourny Li Mei entered, because DA wasn't a tournament). And there's also no statement he ever joined Raiden's team to raid Tsung's temple. Unless I'm mistaken, this paragrash should be rewriten with the known information, instead of filling in dubious events.

I'll get to make minor fixes when I see mistakes, though in these matters I think its better to ask, since I'm yet to see the whole Card bios set and I can be missing something. 201.255.28.194 07:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Gotcha. I edited Mokap's article to remove the references of him being involved in a tournament since his involvment as a whole in the storyline of that particular game is quite vague. I'm assuming that he did something somehow (Most likely massively minor, trivial, and insignificant that had no bearing on the final outcome) as it seems to be just part of his story that he winds up in the wrong places at the wrong time, but where and when specifically we obviously cannot be sure. MarphyBlack 07:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Character select

Should screenshots of the fighter select screens be added to the Deadly Alliance, Deception and Unchained pages? I noticed that they are the only game articles in the series to not have one. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 19:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that would be good... and the Armageddon select screen could do with updating. :) RobWill80 20:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll look around for some, then. ;) -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 01:41, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Stablepedia

Beginning cross-post.

See Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team#Stablepedia. If you wish to comment, please comment there. ★MESSED ROCKER★ 00:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

End cross-post. Please do not comment more in this section.

Height and Weight of several Mortal Kombat-characters

Their Height and Weight are very important items. These have to be noted. Otherwise I'm unsatisfied because Wikipedia is the best page for informations and it would be an offending to remove further informations from Mortal Kombat-characters like their Heights and Weights. Pooter-the-clown 09:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, most characters don't have official heights and weights, as far as I know. The S 16:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly how are height and weight important? EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

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