Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Minnesota State Highways

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[edit] Infobox template

I am seeking help to design the infobox that will appear on the article pages. The information to appear in the box is on this project page. Station Attendant 22:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SpaceJunkie wants to help with the WP:MNSH

I'm willing to help out with the WikiProject: Minnesota State Highways. I'm new to creating Wikipedia articles, but I'm sure I'll get the hang of it.

I live in central Minnesota, so I'd be willing to supply information about highways that serve around my area (Brainerd, St. Cloud, etc.), as needed.

I tried my luck, updating the MN-371 and by creating the article for MN-301, hopefully according to the standards of using the infobox on the page. I would appreciate it if whoever is in charge with this project lets me know if I'm doing things the right way, or what I should do to fix anything. My only question was, am I supposed to superimpose the route number of the Highway shield sign? If so, what font/size am I supposed to use, or do I just guess and check?

Thanks

SpaceJunkie 02:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Not sure about the signs... you're doing good so far. {{Minnesota State Highway WikiProject}} goes on the article talk page though. Also you can just do spaces instead of the underscore in links. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 02:12, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Eventually I hope to upload an image for every MN State Highway shield to the Commons, so that the numbers will be there.Station Attendant 17:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shield images

For shield images I think that we should have a standard name to keep it easier to use the images in an article. It looks like the current way to name the images is MNHighwayXX. I think that this is a good way to do it. Also, should we look at making SVG images or stay with PNG for now? I have tried to make a blank shield with Inkscape but I couldn't get it to work, so someone else would have to take a look at that. I am going to create a subarticle on the project page that lists all of the shield images that we have now so that we know which ones that we have. --Station Attendant 22:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
For now, I am working on the list of shield images at my sandbox. --Station Attendant 23:21, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I've been doing the shield images in PNG format at work, mainly because I have The GIMP there and it doesn't save in SVG format. I have Paint Shop Pro at home, but I don't know if it does SVG. For now, I think the PNG format is working fine, and it scales decently.
Also, I've done the following shields that aren't on your sandbox yet:
Image:MNHighway115.png
Image:MNHighway149.png (this was a pain to do, because I got the kerning wrong)
Finally, a tip: If your graphics program has an anti-aliasing feature for text, turn it on -- it makes the text much more smooth. --Elkman - (talk) 00:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minnesota State Route Marker

A blank Marker
A blank Marker

Hi, I created a SVG for the Minnesota State Route Marker. The colors should be right, an also the aspect ratios - if not, give me the right rgb colors and I'll fix that. Since I'm not from the U.S. I'm not too keen on making a SVG for every PNG Image out there ... but, if anyone neads help, drop me a line @ de:Benutzer:Ucc.

In the commons I added a new category (commons:Category:Minnesota_State_Route_markers) an I allready created a marker for Route 62:

If you want me to rename the Images or the categorys in the commons, just tell me. --ucc 10:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I renamed them to the MN-xx.svg convention (Image:MN-62.svg) and I'll upload a template to the Commons. --ucc 21:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Minnesota

Many articles covered by this WikiProject lack photographs. As part of a subcategorization of the requested photos category, there is now a category for Minnesota articles needing photos - to use it, just add {{reqphotoin|Minnesota}} to the article's talk page. I have only added a few articles to the category so far, but it would be an easy way to make an extensive list Minnesota-related articles lacking photos. I hope you find it useful! TheGrappler 06:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox terminus shields

  • I am working on the Minnesota State Highway 16 infobox to put shields in at the termini, Dexter and La Crescent. The one for Dexter is going to be the I-90 shield, but how should I do the one for La Crescent? Should I just leave it blank or use for Wisconsin 16? --Station Attendant 21:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move to "Highway X (Minnesota)"

Highway X seems to be the most common name used. Thus we should move the articles in accordance with use common names and avoid neologisms. --SPUI (T - C) 21:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Not to start a shouting match, but could you explain why Minnesota State Highway 16 is a neologism? I see no need to change the naming. --Station Attendant 23:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
[1][2] It's pretty clear what the common name is. --SPUI (T - C) 15:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The searches are not comparable, and in any event do not establish what the "common name" is. In conversation people in this state would not use constructs like those suggested here; they would likely give directions by stating "Take 3 south to Faribault, then west on 60 to 14, then west on 14 to New Ulm". Old-timers might say "Trunk Highway 3"; people might say "Minnesota 60" or "Minnesota Highway 60"; or they might say "Highway 14." All are in common useage; none are new constructs. What is being discussed here is an arbitrary (in the neutral sense of that term) convention to apply. As the existing terminology is both in common usage and correct I see no reason to change. Kablammo 18:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
"Minnesota State Highway X" is common usage? --SPUI (T - C) 19:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, yes.[citation needed] --Rschen7754(talk - contribs) 20:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Here are some citations for this usage.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9]Kablammo 02:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
As county roads in Minnesota typically are numbered, it is common to specify whether a numbered road is a state or county highway. We rarely use "Route" (we're told we pronounce it funny anyway) and outside of MnDOT contracts it is uncommon to hear the term "Trunk Highway" as that has fallen out of common usage. Kablammo 20:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
So you use "State Highway X"? --SPUI (T - C) 21:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that is used. Kablammo 21:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
But not "Minnesota State Highway X"? --SPUI (T - C) 21:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but more likely in formal communication. In casual conversation we probably would say "Minnesota x" or "State Highway x" as those are shorter. And of course "Highway x" is used also, but that doesn't specify whether it is a federal, state, or county highway (although "County Road x" or "County x" likely are more common than "County Highway x). Kablammo 21:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I see no need to start moving the Minnesota highways either. Jonathunder 01:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Agree; no need to move. Kablammo 04:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no need to move. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 16:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Since it seems "no move" is favored I'll go with that for now. I think either could work and follow common terms, but why go to the trouble I say. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 21:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Agree. I asked a few people and it was always "minnesota state highway X" or "Minnesota highway x" -Ravedave 21:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The article title can probably remain at "Minnesota State Highway X" as long as suitable redirects are made. Also, the bolded text in the intro should definitely be the proper (correct/legal) name of the route. --Polaron | Talk 22:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

As set forth below, the correct/legal name of a route depends on which Minnesota resource you consult. Interestingly, the map key for the official Minnesota State Highway Map put out by MnDOT do not use the "Trunk Highway" or "TH" terminology in referring to road markers on the map, but rather refers to "state highway route marker" [10] (but the mileage computation table and the mapped markers between junctions does use the term "trunk highways", a category which includes U.S. highways.) "State Highway" is clearly in common usage, even by MnDOT.
I suggest the following:
(a) Keep the existing title, as suggested above. That clearly and immediately distinguishes between state highways and other highways in Minnesota. (A "highway" in Minnesota can be county, state, or federal; a "trunk highway" can be state or federal.)
(b) Start individual road articles with the construct "Minnesota State Highway x, also referred to as Trunk Highway x, is . . . " That seems to cover the bases. Kablammo 14:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References from the MNDOT site

MNDOT is occasionally inconsistent:

  • Rest areas at 210, 60, 61 say "Minnesota State Highway x"
  • The rest area at Gooseberry Falls has abbreviations for "MN61" and "TH 61" (Minnesota 61 and Trunk Highway 61, I'm guessing). (The title calls it "Goosebury Falls", which is a misspelling.)
  • This Mn/DOT news release says that the bridge being replaced is "Highway 25", but the detours are on "State Highways 19 and 5".
  • This news release refers to Trunk Highway 87 and Trunk Highway 64.

From a legal perspective, the following are important:

I'm presenting this as information only, not as endorsement of any particular system of naming. In other words, someone else can figure it out. --Elkman - (Elkspeak) 04:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The Minnesota Code of Agency Rules shows terminology used by state agencies. For example, certain fishing areas are defined by a type of metes-and-bounds description with formats like this: " . . . thence north to U.S. Highway No. [x]; thence east to State Highway No. [y]; thence south to County Highway No. [z], . . ".[11]. That section was not promulgated by MnDOT, but does show how another state agency distinguishes between federal, state, and county highways in setting regulations for the public. Kablammo 06:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More on terminology

The differences of opinion on terminology are reflected on changes made in other pages, including those for Minnesota State Highways 33 and 16. In the interests of having relevant discussion in one place, I reprint here the (current) discussion page from the latter highway[12]:

[Start of MN 16 Talk Page]

[edit] Nomenclature

I changed the opening sentence to read:

"Minnesota State Highway 16, also referred to as Trunk Highway 16 or TH 16, is a two lane highway in Southeast Minnesota that follows the route of Old U.S. Highway 16."

The use of the term "State Highway" is consistent with Minnesota usage, and also helps distinguish this road from Houston County Highway 16. Kablammo 22:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the first "Minnesota", as it is bad grammar. "Minnesota's State Highway 16" would be fine but redundant in this case. --SPUI (T - C) 00:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I guess we Scandanavians just don't know how to write.[13][14][15] [16] [17] [18] Looks like the National Park Service[19] and the Army Corps of Engineers[20] don't either. But more to the point: "Minnesota State Highway 16", "Minnesota Wild Rice", and "Wikipedia article" are all nouns, and comport with the rules of grammar. See this article [21] for a discussion. Kablammo 02:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[End of MN 16 Talk Page]

I hope that that we can reach agreement on both the usage for the titles, but also avoid constant re-edits of text on the same basic issue. Kablammo 02:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:State route naming conventions poll/Part2

Your state is invited to participate in discussions for its highway naming convention. Please feel free to participate in this discussion. If you already have a convention that follows the State Name Type xx designation, it is possible to request an exemption as well. Thanks! --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 00:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Extended part II voting

Since there was controversy on WT:USSH over what the common name of Minnesota state highways are, polls have reopened regarding the common name. See WT:USSH to comment or vote. The poll will close at 11:59 PM UTC on October 8. Thanks. --TMF T - C 14:03, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response from the Minnesota Department of Transportation

I submitted a question to the Minnesota Department of Transportation regarding the official naming of Minnesota highways. Here is the response from Jerry Baldwin, Library Director. (My original questions are in bold.)

The question you submitted to info@dot.state.mn.us was forwarded to Mn/DOT Library for a response.

1. Is the official name of a highway of the form "Minnesota State Highway x", "State Highway x", "Trunk Highway x", or something else?

I can find no document specifying what constitutes an "official name" in relation to numbered highways that constitute the state highway system. In almost all state documents the individual highways are referred to as "THx." The use of the designation "TH" or "Trunk Highway" began with the amendment to the Minnesota Constitution ( http://worldcat.org/oclc/8294090 ) that created the system of highways administered by the state, adopted in 1920, and has been used in subsequent legislation ( http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/161 ).

2. If the official name of a highway does not start with "Minnesota", is it acceptable to refer to highways as "Minnesota State Highway x" in a work like Wikipedia that is used within all 50 states, as well as outside the USA?

The use of the state name preceding a highway number is common practice, but is not designated as "official" or "acceptable" in relation to Minnesota highways. There might be legislation in other states that adopt "offical" designations.

3. Are there any good examples of publications, such as AASHTO documents, that refer to multiple state highway systems that could be used as a preference for this discussion?

AASHTO has issued, and from time to time updates a publication titled "United States Numbered Highways" ( http://worldcat.org/oclc/37586174 ). However, that policy document applies only to the designation and signing of the system of U.S and Interstate highways and provides for consistent numbering and signing of highways that cross state borders or are part of the Interstate highway system. Standards for the numbering and signing of highways wholly within any given state vary from state to state.

Please let me know if I can be of further help.

--Elkman - (Elkspeak) 18:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 22:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] County Road shields

What's the best way to do county road shields? We have some counties using only the blue pentagon (i.e. Ramsey), some using just the white square (usually rural) and some that use both (i.e. Washington). I did read somewhere that the pentagon is used for CSAHs and the square for normal county roads. Should we pick one or the other as a standard? Or try to go by each county's usage? Something else? --Sable232 17:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think shield usage depends on the county, for example Scott county uses all pentagonal, and Dakota county uses pentagons on "major county roads (usually ones that cross the whole county)", and square on others. Personaly I think each road article created should use the shiled that the county is using to mark the road. --MNAdam 20:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
That sounds good, as long as we can find out which one to use. For now I'll concentrate on the pentagons as they are needed. The square county shield blank I made looks pretty bad. --Sable232 07:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I found this page: List of highway shields in the United States, it has some shields that could be converted into county shields. --MNAdam 18:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infoboxes

Infoboxes are now in on nearly every state highway article. The only exceptions are a couple of the very short routes serving state institutions. --Sable232 21:38, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving

Since there's been no activity here in months, do we want to archive this whole page manually so we can preserve the page history?

Secondly, is automatic archiving really necessary since there is hardly any activity here? --Sable232 00:05, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually - you have a good point - removing the archiver bot code, but I'm leaving the archive links -- master_sonTalk - Edits 01:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nominating old shield images for deletion

As far as I can tell, all the old PNG highway name shields have been replaced with SVG shields. Since that's been done, I've nominated the old PNG images for deletion at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2007 June 22#Image:MNHighway100.png. If you have any objections, you might want to voice them at the link. I doubt this is going to be controversial, though. --Elkman (Elkspeak) 20:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Termini formatting

We should come to an agreement on how to format the termini in the infobox. Right now there are two different ways, and it would be nice to standardize them.

  1. (city)
  2. MN-1 in (city)

I prefer the first one. Since the termini are already linked to in prose, the extra link isn't entirely necessary. Having "MN-1" there is redundant to the shield. Not to mention the first one takes up less space. --Sable232 18:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The second one, since having an image without the text is bad for accessibility, and means that someone wanting to click has to hunt for the link in the text. --NE2 01:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of All USRD Clean-up Templates

All of the USRD Clean-up Templates have been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. master sonT - C 16:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo request

Can someone get a photo of the parkway section of Interstate 35E, either from a car or from above? Thank you. --NE2 01:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eastern end of Highway 7

For some odd reason the name of the easternmost mile of Highway 7, running from its intersection with Highway 100 to its eastern terminus at the intersection of France Avenue and Lake Street, was changed to Highway 25 some years ago (I don't know the exact date). Nonetheless, street signs along a "service road" still identify it as Highway 7. Why does any of that make sense? Michael Hardy 04:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reminder from USRD

In response to a few issues that came up, we are giving a reminder to all state highway wikiprojects and task forces:

  1. Each project needs to remain aware of developments at WT:USRD and subpages to ensure that each project is aware of decisions / discussions that affect that project. It is impossible to notify every single project about every single discussion that may affect it. Therefore, it is the state highway wikiproject's responsiblity to monitor discussions.
  2. If a project does not remain aware of such developments and complains later, then there is most likely nothing USRD can do about it.
  3. USRD, in most to nearly all cases, will not interfere with a properly functioning state highway wikiproject. All projects currently existing are "properly functioning" for the purposes mentioned here. All task forces currently existing are not "properly functioning" (that is why they are task forces). Departments of USRD (for example, MTF, shields, assessment, INNA) may have specific requirements for the state highway wikiprojects, but complaints regarding those need to be taken up with those departments.
  4. However, this is a reminder that USRD standards need to be followed by the state highway wikiprojects, regardless of the age of the wikiproject.

Regards, Rschen7754 (T C) 05:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A few things with exits & route termini

Yesterday I worked at filling in the gap in the exit list for I-94. I was wondering if we add in exits for rest areas? http://www.dot.state.mn.us/restareas/ has a list of all the rest areas in Minnesota. If so, do we just state "Rest Area" or give the specific name? Also, I did end up making the county road shields for the exits in Wright, Stearns, Todd and Douglas counties. I hope I did it right.. although I know that all the blue pentagon shields in my end of the state use white lettering, so that's how I made mine.

Also, US 10 looks like it could use an exit list makeover, except I'm not sure what the format is supposed to look like, since outside of the Twin Cities, it's pretty much all at-grade intersections except for around Sauk Rapids, Little Falls, and a few main intersections heading towards Moorhead.

And a few questions about termini: In our TH 18 article, it has the eastern terminus at I-35. I think that TH 18 might actually end at TH 23 about a half mile west of I-35. In addition to the route log, the Pine County map on the MnDOT site doesn't show any sign of 18 going to the interstate: http://www.dot.state.mn.us/maps/cadd/county/pine2.pdf, and although 18 is signed with 23 on the I-35 exit, it's probably just as a guide since TH 18 is basically right nearby.

Also, it appears as if TH 28 runs concurrent with TH 27 into Little Falls. Looking at the route log it says TH 28 is "COINCIDENT WITH MNTH 27 FROM REFERENCE POINTS 123+00.234 TO 135+00.150", which means that TH 28 would end at Lindbergh Dr / CSAH 52 in Little Falls (which was the former routing of Highway 10 many years back). From the times I've been in Little Falls, I can remember that 28 is co-signed with 27 at least to the east of the TH 238 intersection, but once you get into Little Falls I don't remember 28 being signed very well, if at all. The Little Falls map on the Mn/DOT site makes it appear as if TH 28 ends closer to the Mississippi River, but I'd still guess it ends at Lindbergh Dr. http://www.dot.state.mn.us/maps/cadd/city/Over5000/littlefalls.pdf

Here's a Minnesota Highway Ends site with the guy having the same termini for the highways as I mentioned above: http://ajfroggie.com/roadpics/mn-ends/mn018.htm
http://ajfroggie.com/roadpics/mn-ends/mn028.htm

If you want me to make any of those changed, I gladly will, or will not. Thanks,
SpaceJunkie (talk) 19:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The standard is Wikipedia:Manual of Style (exit lists); generally rest areas bad, service areas maybe. For a non-freeway, you can do something like U.S. Route 101 in California (ignore the mileage by county) or something like Oregon Route 58. I recently redid List of Minnesota state highways, "starting over" and getting termini from Mn/DOT sources, and I agree with you on both routes you mention. --NE2 05:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)