Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Cartography

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[edit] Please be advised

Certain of the USMA maps contain errors. A precious few have rather serious errors, as they depict entire army corps miles away from their actual locations. Content experts are usually aware of these errors, and make allowances for them in their research and writings. I've just completed a considerable revision of one of the USMA maps for just these reasons.

Good luck! (You're going to need it!) Philippsbourg —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Phillipsbourg (talk • contribs) 04:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Map Copyright question

If a map's copyright has expired, is it allowable to 'chop up' a map? For example, I've found a good map for the Second Punic War, but it has a large border and text around it, and this has all been scanned by the university which maintains the collection. Is is violation of copyright to edit the image? - Vedexent 03:35, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

If the map is public domain, you can do whatever you want with it: chopping up, resizing, cropping, etc. From a copyright standpoint, it's just a bit of colored paper. —Kirill Lokshin 03:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of copywrights, what about background layout? For exemple using ESRI's ArcGIS / base maps(Europe, rivers, cities, etc.) and adding up the polygone(s) needed to show the subject?Dryzen 18:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I would think that using the background layout would make the new map a derivative work, which would carry the same copyright terms as the original background did. This might be a problem if the background is under a license that forbids modifying the image (but why that would be the case for maps, I don't know). Kirill Lokshin 22:41, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Maps

For those working on maps, Wikipedia:WikiProject Maps may be of use. It doesn't seem to get a lot of activity, but may have some useful tips, including on the talk page. --Kevin —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kevin Myers (talk • contribs) 15:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Map Creation Software?

Does anyone know of any good software packages for creating maps? Other than a painting or drawing program; I'm thinking along the lines of pre-generated outlines that you can then drop symbols, labels, arrows, etc. onto it. Anyone know of, or use, software like this? - Vedexent 22:21, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I wish! If you find good software, drop me a note. The Minister of War (Peace) 07:11, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Well there is MapInfo, 3 000$ for a licence, I wish I would of been a Wikipidian a year ago, I had the sofware at work.Dryzen 14:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Arrows can be made with Inkscape, maybe other things as well, but i didn't managed to download a map from Inkscape. Cyberboard has the possibility of making your own counters and symbols. Cyberboard maps should be downloadable, but i didn't had success with it (I am a historian and no programmer).--Daanschr 17:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Those are graphic software rather than cartographic. But i gather that from the viewer's poitn of view it really dosen't matter does it? Could use Corel Suite or Adobe?Dryzen 19:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map requests

I know map request belong on the project page, but Kirill has put up a DO NOT DISTURB sign on it so...is there anyone here who could help me find or fashion suitable replacements for the following maps- Image:Map Gaul.gif and Image:Tetrarch system.PNG. I rescued them both from deletion, since they were being used in a number of articles to illustrate important and complex boundaries. The Gaul map is of dubious historical accuracy. The Tetrarch map is low resolution quality. In both cases, I'm unsure as to the exact sources, which has brought me into conflict with Image:Copyright Trolls who claim they dont qualify as fairuse. This is a classic case of some maps being better than none at all, but they scream out for replacements. Please help if you can. Thanks,--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 23:56, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

We've got Image:Gaul, 1st century BC.gif already listed; that might be able to replace the first one. I'll see if I can dig up a tetrarchy map shortly. Kirill Lokshin 00:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
For the second one, Image:Roman Empire about 395.jpg has all of the information, but is somewhat more complicated to read. Kirill Lokshin 01:09, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Those are just what I need. They may not be as "user friendly" but I'll take the trade for historical accuracy and detail. Thx Cap'N!:>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 05:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Roman and Carthaginian spheres of influence, 218 BC
actually this map does not show the same extension of Carthaginian and Roman influnece as portrayed in contemporary maps. Uprise against the Romans in Gaul makes no sense with this map. Could we have a better map? Thank you. Wandalstouring 14:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

If possible Battle of Chalons needs a depiction of the battle. Can the US Army provide something? Wandalstouring 13:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikimedia Commons

Given that most of the maps being listed come from Commons (where they are finally being organized in usable categories), I'm wondering if maintaining a manually-updated list on this page is unnecessary duplication of effort? Maybe we should just use the relevant Commons pages for our cartography efforts? Kirill Lokshin 20:50, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The Commons is merely a repository. This department is unique because it is the one-stop spot on the 'pedia proper not only for military history maps but also for mapmakers to share their resources with a more focused group of dedicated users. As such it offers a much needed service to the project, which the commons simply doesnt provide. In addition, it can help with such tricky tasks as proper copyright tagging of maps. It has helped me out in a number of cases (see above). If it had existed back in day when i was a Wiki-Newbie, I'd have few problems today. So no, it is not unnecessary duplication of effort, but a worthy and useful effort. But should you wish to appoint a "Cartographer General" or two, to help look after and update it, there would certainly be "no big deal". But please, let's keep this department alive, at least until it has had a chance to grow and prove its usefulness.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 13:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough; are you volunteering for the job? ;-)
More seriously, if we can dig up somebody who (a) is willing to keep track of all the maps coming in and (b) knows enough about the various copyright policies to avoid bringing the image death squad on our heads, we can easily bring this place back to activity. At this point, I was pretty much the only person working on it, though, and I really don't have enough free time to create a second map catalogue (beyond my work on Commons). Kirill Lokshin 13:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh I understand fully. I WISH i could help more...the Spirit is certainly willing, but my time of late is limited too and as my run-ins with the Image vogons show, I certainly don't qualify under (b) either. So shall we have an open-call audition, or put a "Help Wanted" ad? :>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 13:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Entirely up to you ;-) So long as we find someone willing and able to do it, I don't care if you audition them, press gang them, bribe them with beer, or whatever. Kirill Lokshin 22:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Acknowledged. I will use whatever means necessary. But I'll start off by putting a nice, HELP WANTED ad on the project T-page. This failing, I'll start offering bribes to suitable candidates (never met a candidate yet who didnt have some price:) and that failing I'll call in the Press gangs:>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 21:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I'll add a note about this to the next issue of the project newsletter (which should be coming out shortly). Kirill Lokshin 23:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Exxxxcelent...that should help too. I really do prefer volunteers to press gangs:>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 00:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Not sure if we'll get what we need, but, for the time being, I've marked this place as active again. There are some shenannigans going on at Commons anyways; one always forgets that not everyone there is a fluent English speaker. Kirill Lokshin 00:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the copyright policy, except that two pictures that i downloaded, has been deleted.--Daanschr 18:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A nasty problem

It looks like linking to the image (rather than actually displaying it inline) doesn't actually register as a link in MediaWiki. As a consequence, the various Commons file-usage tools won't report the links here, and if any of the images are deleted as duplicates, this page won't be updated by the admins there. The obvious technical solution would be to display the maps as a gallery (which would poperly show up as a use of the file), but that will produce a massive page that will choke browsers. Any ideas? Maybe we should create subpages by conflicts or periods and have galleries there? Kirill Lokshin 23:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Subpages would seem the only, logical solution. Bear in mind, though, that unlike here, the Commons has not yet been overrun by the "When in doubt DELETE" mobs. So the life expectancy of the typical image, especially the likes of historical maps, is much greater there. Common sense still lives on the Commons, it would seem...for the most part.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 21:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First-time map

Alright chaps,

I've just made a map for my expansion on the Military history of New Zealand, and maybe one day an expanded Battle of Crete. However, this is the first map I've ever made for Wikipedia, so I thought I'd check it out here first. The Cartography Dept. seems about the right place to ask for suggestions or comments on a map - is there anything I've done wrong, or should have done?

Cheers, --Loopy e 19:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Looks nice; certainly better than what I'd be able to draw! ;-)
Any intentions of adding troop positions and movements to it? Or is it only meant to show the geography? Kirill Lokshin 19:50, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you're off to great start M8! And exactly the sort of thing this department is trying to encourage. Maleme was argueably the crux of Crete. Though troop positions/movements would be nice, even without them it greatly helps orientation and illustration. Cheers, --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 20:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I originally intended it as a geographic reference with the text describing their positions, but now I'll think I'll show them on the map too. --Loopy e 04:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
A scale would be useful, though the river and airfield provide some sense of proportion. Gsl 21:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I'll definitely throw in a scale, cheers. --Loopy e 04:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Updated =) --Loopy e 06:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tools

Salutations wikipedian cartographers, as a real cartographer I may have been blind to more mundane and simple tools. I was wondering what you might have been using to produce the myrad of maps available on wikipedia? As well as what where the licences most commenly used? Thank you for your time.Dryzen 19:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I want to make maps, but i don't like the map creating programs. The license of selfmade maps is very easy. Just say it is selfmade and your map remains. I have only created one map (see Lucius Paullus), but i had problems with [1] and GIMP.--Daanschr 14:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WW2 maps

Hello, Ive been trying to make a series of maps which give a basic overview of allied/axis territory in world war 2 for each month, see commons:template:WW2 month. I have a couple of good WW2 atlases but there were still some gaps, and there are lots of things which need checking or correcting. The eastern front in particular was not complete from the maps I was looking at and I had to estimate some areas. There are also problems with exactly what to choose - for instance a map of April 1941 could show yugoslavia as neutral or allied (before apr 6) or german occupied (after apr 6) and the german lines could be shown anywhere from yugoslavia to greece (which was also conquered the same month) Just thought Id ask here for any comments. See also the discussion here --Astrokey44 03:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of Google Earth?

Hi,

What do you think about including into articles about battles links to placemarks on Google Earth? There is at least one effort to cover WWII battles:

http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=112882

but it seems that Wikipedia is a better forum for placemark creation/verification. Then a tool could be created that would combine these placemarks by continent/campaign/period into one placemark file for easier viewing.

It just occurred to me that it would be interesting to also create battle maps as Google Earth overlays - this could help anchor the troop positions to real terrain features. --Simonf 07:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

There are obvious copyright problems here; we can't actually include any maps from Google Earth in Wikipedia because they're not under a free license. Kirill Lokshin 15:27, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
This is not what I'm suggesting. Placemarks and overlays are user-created data files that can be opened in Google Earth. See http://www.keyhole.com/kml/kml_tut.html#placemarks http://www.keyhole.com/kml/kml_tut.html#ground_overlays A placemark is just a set of geographic coordinates plus a description, and an overlay is a set of coordinates plus an image to show at these coordinates. The users will have to have Google Earth to open the files, but it's free and is likely to remain so. --Simonf 15:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Ah, ok. That looks fine from a copyright standpoint. I'm not sure how useful it would be (at least in comparison to having a regular map); but if people want to take the time to create something like that, it's up to them. Kirill Lokshin 15:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
The useful part could be having a script that combines individual placemarks into aggregate ones that show the whole campaign at once (eg, Roman expansion in I century BC etc). Whom can I ask about getting access to do that? It would be similar to the bot that automatically adds new translation tags. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simonf (talk • contribs)
Not sure. You could probably ask at Wikipedia:Bots, and they might be able to direct you to someone who can help with that. Kirill Lokshin 16:20, 9 July 2006 (UTC)