Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medieval Scotland

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Contents

[edit] Category:Scoto-Norman Clans

You lot are gonna just love this one: Category:Scoto-Norman clans.

See Cfd discussion, here:

--Mais oui! 09:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested merge

I have requested that the new British language (Celtic) article be merged into the Welsh language article. Contribute at Talk:Welsh language.--Mais oui! 11:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Campaign to "Shire-ify" Scotland

Please see:

--Mais oui! 21:13, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acts of Union 1707

I know that it is far from medieval, but could you history guys please take a good look at Acts of Union 1707. The article as it currently exists is utterly pathetic, barely touching the topic. It needs the input of several proper historians. It does not help that some persistent POV merchants have been "sitting" on it for at least a year. --Mais oui! 04:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Direct descent from Fergus Mór to Elizabeth II

Please see the discussion here:

--Mais oui! 10:29, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of the Thistle

Can some of you guys check out the Order of the Thistle article. It is a bit laughable, but it is currently an FA (?!?) and (this I just cannot believe) it is one of the very, very few articles to be approved for Wikipedia:Version 0.5. It will be an absolute travesty if such a ridiculous article ends up being the only Scotland-related article in Version 0.5. Please check it out. --Mais oui! 00:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bioproject

New Project page, Wikipedia:WikiProject Medieval Scotland/BioProject, has been opened. Designed to coordinate medieval Scottish biographical output with the Bioproject, and to categorize appropriately historical figures from medieval Scotland. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 13:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello! I also invite you to make use of the page we set up over at WP:WPBIO for the British Isles, which has a Scottish section -- feel free to add to the announcements/to-do area, etc...

[edit] Expansion: Wikipedia:WikiProject Medieval Scotland and Ireland

Was wondering what people would think about expanding the remit of this project to cover Ireland too. This would not mean narrowing the project's scope to include only Gaels; as Scandinavians, Normans and English were also common elements to both lands, the merge makes a lot of historical sense. Also, I'm detecting that, thanks to the work of Angus and others on medieval Scottish projects, Irish topics are noticably beginning to lag behind, a wikipedia imbalance that ought to obviously be addressed. Thoughts? Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 14:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English fief?

... for large periods in the middle ages Scotland was an English fief, and its king sat in the English house of lords. Thoughts?`--Mais oui! 23:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

If the author means that the Scottish king was a vassal of the king of England, then he is correct for the period 1124 to the reign of Alexander III. Scotland itself was only legally a fief for the king of England for the period between the Treaty of Falaise (1174) and the Quitclaim of Canterbury (1189). Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 23:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
But was he not a "vassal" at the English court purely in the context of his estates and titles in England, not in relation to his estates and titles in Scotland, eg. monarch? --Mais oui! 00:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
He was a vassal for Scotland between 1174 and 1189. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 03:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't meaning that period, I was meaning "for the period 1124 to the reign of Alexander III" (excluding 1174-1189). Was he not a "vassal" at the English court purely in the context of his estates and titles in England during that period? --Mais oui! 06:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] early medieval monarchs

How did all the early Scottish monarch articles come to be at the Gaelic name? Was this done with any discussion or any requested moves? There is no discussion here, or at Talk:List of Monarchs of Scotland, or at any naming conventions page, nor was there any prior discussion at any of the individual articles that I've looked at. john k 03:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

They don't all have Gaelic names; most of them have the names they've had since creation. Certain of the articles were moved more recently to bring them in line with their content, which no one had ever objected to. Baffles me why people such as yourself, who never contribute or read these articles, suddenly get all active when article titles have been brought inline with the content they've had for ages. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 04:45, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Once again, PatGallacher clearly objected to the content, several days before you moved all the articles. Others have objected since. And how on earth do you know that I never read these articles? I obviously haven't read them recently, since whenever Angus changed all the text to be the Gaelic text, but I am interested in Scottish history, and you have no right to just decide that you and Angus are the only ones with a right to comment. john k 12:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, thanks for that. Pat Gallacher's comments were actually more than a year before, so check your claims. And Angus actually rewrote the articles, which were crap before he came along, and he followed the names used in his sources. Like I said, it baffles me why people such as yourself, who never contribute or read these articles, suddenly get all active when article titles have been brought inline with the content they've had for ages. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:02, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
As Calgacus says, they didn't, many of them weren't moved - Macbeth, Indulf, Amlaíb, the Constantines, Lulach, Giric, Eochaid. Áed and Cuílen were moved a while back, but that was in the way of being a correction. Surprisingly, my having moved all of the Kings of Dál Riata months ago has yet to generate any controversy. I don't know exactly when I started on editing "kings of Scotland", but it has to have been more than four months ago, as this diff shows. It's not as if everything changed overnight. Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move update

All of the following name changes are being discussed at Talk:Cináed I of Scotland#Requested move:

An approval poll is in-process, as of August 28. All interested editors are invited to participate. --Elonka 01:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More naming problems

The vote at Talk:Cináed I of Scotland has shown that, should it be aroused, there is widespread and extensive opposition to naming Scottish monarchs in the current format with medieval Scottish rather than anglicized names. However, the vote discussion has brought up a number of issues regarding the style of Pictish and early Scottish monarch names, for which it is at odds with other Celtic countries and it seems often factually inaccurate or misleading. A preliminary discussion is taking place at Wikipedia:WikiProject Medieval Scotland/Royal naming, where perhaps it can be determined how to best name Scotland's earlier monarchs. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 03:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Expansion : Religion in Scotland

This is a newly created article that requires a lot of work. I just thought I'd post it here so that people in the know could possibly help get the history section (and others) up to speed. --Bob 19:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I would agree , rather a large amount of non-sequiturs. Is there any way of organising a group to get involved with pre-reformation Scotland and the history of the various houses? All the Border Abbey articles seem to be stubs, and Monasticism in Scotland seems to be confined to the rather narrow listing of institutions under Abbeys and priories in Scotland or entirely devoted to so-called Celtic Christianity. I'm trying to fiddle with Soutra Aisle just now, a house run by Augustinians. Scotland did have a long Church history following the synod of Whitby and before the Reformation, and it seems not well enough documented here on Wikipedia. Brendandh 03:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tagging talk pages and assessing articles

Wikipedia Assessments within AWB. Click on the image to see it in better resolution
Wikipedia Assessments within AWB. Click on the image to see it in better resolution

Hi. If you still have work to do tagging talk pages and assessing articles, my AWB plugin might be of interest to you.

The plugin has two main modes of operation:

  • Tagging talk pages, great for high-speed tagging
  • Assessments mode, for reviewing articles (pictured)

As of the current version, WikiProjects with simple "generic" templates are supported by the plugin without the need for any special programatic support by me. I've had a look at your project's template and you seem to qualify.

For more information see:

Hope that helps. If you have any questions or find any bugs please let me know on the plugin's talk page. --Kingboyk 14:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of the Thistle

I am unhappy about the status of the article Order of the Thistle as a WP:Featured article. It just seems very weak and vague to me, but as a non-historian I thought that I'd better consult the experts. I think it should be put forward to Wikipedia:Featured article review. What do you guys think?

Of course the best option would be to bring it up to Featured standard. --Mais oui! 10:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 17:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FA nom. Jocelin

I should like to announce that Jocelin is currently nominated as a Featured article. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 07:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 21:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nigel Tranter

Firstly: great project: the pages are excellent. I've found them a useful resource. I've recently logged in and become an editor (rather than just a browser), and have started work on the Nigel Tranter pages. I mention this here because Tranter has been a great influence on our modern view of Scottish / medieval history. Tranter was a lay-historian (as it were), using his vast knowledge and research to write biographical historical fiction as well as non-fiction works. Said to have "taught Scots all the history they know". I mention this because: 1. some of you might be Tranter lovers also, and wish to contribute; 2. some of you might not know what a good resource Tranter is; 3. I will stray on to 'your' pages, so want my work to be consistent and helpful (eg I might start up pages or contribute); 4. you might start referencing in or linking to Tranter pages. See Nigel Tranter#Non-fiction books ;Talk:Nigel Tranter and Talk:Historical novels of Nigel Tranter, pre 1286 if interested. Thanks. Gwinva 14:25, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Peer review/David I of Scotland/archive1

Hey guys. Anxious for feedback on article David I of Scotland. It is up for peer review at Wikipedia:Peer review/David I of Scotland/archive1. Best regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 18:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ealdorman/Thegn Merger

Hi all, just a note to inform of this proposal. Considering that the title Ealdorman was only used in present day SE Scotland whereas Thegn was considerably more widespread, I would imagine that this would not be a good idea. I pointed any one who on the talk page is interested to an essay on the end of Thanage in Scotland [1]. See if that works. Brendandh 20:36, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] William the Lion

Is there anyone out there with the knowledge enough to improve this article? It is essential to get this one organised and up and going. Cheers. Brendandh 21:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Royal coat of arms of the Scottish monarchs prior to William the Lion?

Our article Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom shows the royal arms of Scottish monarchs as beginning with William the Lion's lion rampant, but I find this to be highly unlikely. Surely William's predecessors also had royal arms? What were they? Do we have images of them? Can we get images? Any input welcome. (PS. the date given for the lion rampant - "12 century" - is a bit vague. Can we be more precise? Sources?) Ta. --Mais oui! 08:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

It would appear not. The earliest known armorial bearings in Scotland are said to be those on the seals of Alan, the High Steward of Scotland, about 1177, and Patrick, Earl of Dunbar, about 1182, but as both these families had immigrated into Scotland they may have brought these with them. William the Lion may be the first monarch to have had Arms which are actually recorded anywhere. I understand there is something conmfirming this in the next Scottish Heraldry Society's issue of The Double Tressure due out soon. David Lauder 10:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
David I apparently had a dragon for his standard (don't remember the source for that atm, need to look). I've often secretly suspected that the Lion was a development of some such thing. Though David is correct in pointing out that arms are foreign (continental) import to Scotland, and shouldn't be expected until the foreignisation of the monarchs from David and afterwards. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 11:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Garde Écossaise

Started this article. Most of the subject matter falls outside the remit of this project but any input would be good. Brendandh 16:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject_Norse_history_and_culture

A new project has been started for people interested in ancient and medieval Norse history and culture. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greetings friends

Announcing that all 9 vols of the The Scots Peerage are now available online. This is public domain, so these can be used as a copy-paste resource for nobility articles if necessary. If done, please add {{Scots Peerage}} in reference section. Please also remember that the peerage system was not created (in Scotland) until the 1440s, in the early reign of James II, so it's inappropriate to add cats and templates making too much use of the words "peer" or "peerage" in articles about magnates and barons before this period. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 09:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

You say "the peerage system was not created in Scotland until the 1440s" and I wonder what your reference for that is? That appears to differ from Sir Robert Douglas's account. Regards, David Lauder 10:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The practice let alone the concept of peerage were totally foreign to Scots until the later middle ages. This is generally well known I thought. If you want a reference, read Alexander Grant, "The development of the Scottish peerage", in: SHR 57, 1978. Or better yet, his Independence and Nationhood: "there was no Scottish peerage until the mid fifteenth century, and even after then the Scottish nobility clearly contained many individuals who were not peers of parliament. The Scottish concept of nobility, therefore, was probably akin to the Continental one, which included those who in England would be called gentry" (p. 120). Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 10:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
In that case, might it not be a good idea to mention this at our Peerage of Scotland article. Suitably referenced, of course. At present it is really barely more than a stub, totally lacking in sources. --Mais oui! 10:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I may be ignorant on this. I had always thought that the peerage was not necessarily defined as specific, rather an association of the nobility, called, for simplicty, The Peerage (as opposed to the Landed Gentry or the feudal baronage). Scotland has had nobility for the past thousand years, and given that for more than half of that period (i.e: longer than in England) the Minor (or Lesser) feudal barons had a right to a seat in parliament I would have thought that any association of peers in Scotland would also have included them until the 17th century. Douglas is probably a good guide to this or even Sir James Balfour Paul, but I've not got the time today to look further. Regards, David Lauder 11:47, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Peerage is supposed to refer to a particular a system of "nobility"; a caste of people in some kind of system where the crown can determine "nobility" by charter or decree. 13th or 14th cent. Scotland (not to mention before) had no such system. You were a landowner or a warlord of varying degrees... that was it. There were only kings and earls/mormaers/sub-kings, minor thanes or like warlords, and anglo-norman provincial rulers blurring the line. Pre-15th cent. Scottish earls, for instance, are provincial rulers more comparable to kings than English barons. The 1440s is only when the crown begins to draw a line by creating parliamentary peers. Those 19th century authors are being rather broad in their use ... most of their pages are devoted to actual peers ... the earlier fellows only get in there for comprehensiveness. Guys like Somerled, Ferchar of Ross, Alan of Galloway, Archibald the Grim, etc, are not in any meaningful sense "peers". It is simply wrong to use the word in that way. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I shall have to brush up. It is important that we establish fact here rather than our personal views. From my memory there were Dukes of Albany, Dukes of Rothesay, Earls of Fife, Earls of Athol, Earls of Mar, Earls of Ross, long before the 1400s. The feudal barons were next. The Crown, in introducing Lords of Parliament (virtually all of whom had been feudal barons in any case) may have been simply following the English model where they were slowly formalising the parliamentary peerage (as opposed to the feudal model) as parliament became more of an institution. But a peerage still existed before that. It may not have been as formal as it became and is today, but the hierarchy existed. David Lauder 16:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Erm ... "Earldoms" and such do not count as peerage just because they were incorporated into a later peerage system; that would be anachronistic, wouldn't it?! Back to Sandy Grant, "there was no Scottish peerage until the mid fifteenth century". BTW, those duchies were both created on the same day in 1398, hardly a "long before the 1400s". Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:17, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I was speaking in general rather than specific terms. Is Sandy Grant a relation of God? This is only his opinion, surely? I note your first sentence: but why not? I am not disputing that there was not a formal peerage as it finally became and as we know it now, but the word peer means equal; and the Oxford English Dictionary simply says, of a peerage, "member of one of the degrees of nobility" or "noble (of any country)". Regards, David Lauder 17:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The word "peer" gradually taking more meaning is quite different from using that as an excuse to justify an anachronistic retroprojection of the peerage system. The Mormaer of Mar at the Battle of Clontarf, hence, did not hold a title in the peerage of Scotland, since the peerage of Scotland wasn't created until the 1440s. It's really that simple as far I can see. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template

I've added the project template to a few talk pages of articles I've been fiddling with. Does anyone know where you can find, or if there is a list of articles which fall under this project's remit? Cheers Brendandh 23:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Brendan, here are two exemplars
{{Template:Medieval Scotland|class=FA|importance=Top|small=yes}} (David I)
{{Template:Medieval Scotland|class=B|importance=high}} (Archibald the Grim)
and the category page, which can be browsed Category:WikiProject Medieval Scotland
Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 05:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dunvegan Cup

Have you guys spotted this new article?

Is it a possible DYK for Main page? --Mais oui! 10:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Black Death

I have been trying to locate any articles with reference to Scotland during the great plague of the 14th c. to no avail. This pandemic obviously caused major social upheaval within Scotland and elsewhere, but although there is a deal of information relating to other European instances, including our southern neighbour, there is nothing about Scotland. Not my subject, but I feel that an article would be worthwhile, even if it was just an attempt to explain the relative peace of the kingdom, due to lack of manpower to the south. (or could that just be the fact that they held our king prisoner!) Brendandh 00:58, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

There is one book, but it ain't very good. Wyntoun has some comments. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Style?

I have been replacing where appropriate and when I come across it, [[[Scotland|Scots/Scottish]]] with [[[Kingdom of Scotland|Scots/Scottish]]] in any biographies prior to 1707, likewise with [[[England|English]]] etc. Anyone with any thoughts on whether this is a sensible thing to continue to do? Brendandh 22:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] William Comyn, jure uxoris Earl of Buchan

Working on this article there are two things I can't find out:

  1. Is Jordan Comyn actually one of his sons?
  2. St Marys Chapel near Castle of Rattray may have been built after the "drowning of a Comyn son" which son drowned?

Does anyone know the answers? I have no access to a library and can find nothing online. Bobbacon 10:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template for deletion

[edit] Talk:Lauder

There is a dispute going on at Talk:Lauder. I am one of the two parties, the other being David Lauder. The dispute concerns the presentation of out-dated pseudo-history as fact in the article. I have requested third parties look in, but no-one has done so yet. So I invite a wider audience here. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I have followed WP:Reliable sources, where it states states that Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources. I have done that religiously. Whilst I am relying on a generally accepted background to the town, found in umpteen sources, Deacon of Pndapetzim doesn't like it because it fails to suit his personal opinions relating to that period of Scottish history. I wouldn't mind if he had something to add to the background of the town but appears he has not. None of us own Wikipedia or any of the articles. Moreover none of us have a right to stand over others and dictate to them (I have been told before by the Deacon not to introduce historians, sometimes famous, into Wikpedia whom he disapproves of) and that is why we have WP guidelines, such as WP:Reliable sources. I have made countless hours of contributions to Wikipedia and it is painful to see one's work destroyed. But I suppose that ultimately - and I have seen this done on WP - it is a way of getting rid of editors you don't like. David Lauder 19:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] collaboration of the history projects

Hi, I'm newly appointed coordinator of the Wikipedia: WikiProject History. I was coordinator of the Wikipedia: WikiProject Military History before. My scope is to improve the cooperation among the different history projects andf use the synergy of a common infrastructure to improve article quality. One idea would be to merge small project into a larger wikiproject history with a common infrastructure and the small projects continuing independently as task forces of this project. What are your suggestions? Greetings Wandalstouring 15:17, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Island collaboration

Announcing the arrival of a rare example of an historical island - Hinba. Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 18:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Pictish monarchs

Template:Pictish monarchs has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Michael Sanders has nominated for deletion the old Scottish Monarchs template. He has created in the last few minutes a Scottish monarchs template. See Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2008_January_3#Template:Scottish_Monarchs. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Medieval Scotland/Bibliography

I created here a page to dump references in the form of WP:Citation template. The intention is to make referencing quicker by decreasing the amount of time spent on that kind of thing. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 08:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)