Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism/Manual of Style

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[edit] Biblical text

I've expanded the guidance on sources - identifying some sources that are standard in biblical research and adding some information about modern trends in biblical criticism. The material needs citations but I've got a wiki backlog and its going to take time for me to get around to preparing proper footnotes. I thought it was important though to add them even sans citations since they largely support what should be a truism from 4th grade on - don't write an essay relying on a single source.

I also think my writing is a bit wordy and complex. I'd be grateful if someone wanted to copy edit what I've written.Egfrank 06:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reliable torah sources

There seem to be a number of places where editors have used the phrase "reliable Torah sources". In some cases, it seems simply to be an attempt to define "what's Jewish". No one would object to a more neutral definition using secular terminology. In other cases, I wonder if the author really wants Wikipedia to focus on "the Truth" and wants to protect the reader from being mislead.

In this case I replaced the phrase because I think the editor meant the former. However, I think there is a larger issue here that needs to be addressed. Torah and Wikipedia reliability standards are not necessarily synonymous. Torah standards of reliability have as much to do with the goal of study (mitzvot, yirat hashem, ahavat Israel, tikkun olam, etc) as they do the content of study. As a (former) Hebrew school teacher, I would not want to use up some of my precious classroom time discussing every single view point that Wikipedia (or even the academic world) considers relevant. I would choose to focus on those that deepened my students understanding of Torah and their obligations as and joy in being Jews. I don't think I am alone in this.

I realize it is easy to confuse the goals of Torah and the goals of Wikipedia. It is impossible to ignore the thought that Wikipedia is the likely first stop for an uneducated Jew wishing to learn more about their Judaism. But Wikipedia isn't designed as a kiruv tool, it is an encyclopedia. There are many fine kiruv tools out there - let's let them do their job and lets focus on ours. Egfrank 07:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

From the User_talk:egfrank page:

Hi! I appreciate your efforts on the Manual of Style but beg to disagree with you on one issue. You recently made a change from a reference to all sources reflecting the "Torah" viewpoint (admittedly rather badly worded) to a reference to medieval commentators. My personal view has been that reliability of a source is determined within a field of expertise. Orthodox Judaism regards itself as a field of expertise and, whether or not one agrees with its outcomes, it has a self-correcting peer review process for determining which individuals are considered experts and which viewpoints are considered notable and acceptable within that community. Accordingly, the community's position has always been that sources that have been published and are considered reliable within the "Torah community" are reliable for Wikipedia purposes because they reliably articulate a notable viewpoint and have been vetted by experts in that viewpoint. This has been the position of all administrators from the Orthodox community and has historically been the position of the Judaism WikiProject. Although the statement of this position could be better and more neutrally worded, I don't recommend unilaterally departing from it without discussion. I particularly disagree with changing to a reference to "medieval commentators". It's vitally important for this community to have the ability to explain its contemporary situation and offer contemporary viewpoints, and we have to have the ability to have the sources generally used to articulate notable contemporary viewpoints considered reliable for Wikipedia purposes. Wikipedia guidelines provide some flexibility to support this; for example, the fine print in the verifiability and reliable sources say that it's OK to quote a self-published work (such as a letter from a figure like Moshe Feinstein or the website of a well-known Yeshiva) if the author has been determined to be a notable expert in the field through published sources. Part of my job in dealing with the general Wikipedia community has been to advocate for the need for this leeway continuing and to explain the special sourcing problems of religious topics and editors. I also don't believe that undercutting the ability of the Orthodox community to have its sources for articulating its contemporary positions considered reliable creates any general advantage for the purposes of the Encyclopedia or benefits anyone else. Once again, doubtless this special need of the Orthodox community could be articulated in better and more neutral language that more closely tracks existing flexibility in the guidelines. Best, --Shirahadasha 13:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm so glad you responded. I absolutely can't imagine how we could have any reasonable discussion of Jewish thought without including the gaonim, rishonim, and more modern thinkers like Moshe Feinstein. I only limited the list to medieval commentators because the paragraph was about figuring out the meaning of rare words. It was my impression that interest in philology moved out of the yeshiva and into the academic world around the time of the haskalah. After that point the yeshiva tended to quote older sources rather than do their own research, but if there were noted philologists in the yeshiva world of the 19th and 20th century, by all means we should include them.

Part of what is going on here - I think - is a dance between the language of academia and the language of the yeshiva. Both are rich sophisticated intellectual traditions. The best possible article should be comprehensive in the eyes of both worlds. Perhaps I am too idealistic, but I would hope we can strive to that goal. To make it a reality we need to explain the language and standards of each world to the other.

In the context of the yeshiva "Torah source" is shorthand for a long list of sources that have a high level of trust when explaining Jewish text and halacha. If we want people in the academic world to understand what that means, we need to explain who is in the list. I started a partial list in the bible verse section, but it was by no means complete. I was rather hoping some one would add a section after the medieval commentators to include the bright lights of modern Torah study from both worlds: people like Samuel Hirsh, Moshe Feinstein, Nehama Leibowitz, and Aviva Zornberg should certainly be in the list. The Halakhah section also needs to be fleshed out.

But maybe there is also another issue. Not only do we need the manual of style to explain how the other half thinks, but we also need to see ourselves in it. We need to be able to say - Yeah! that is what I think is important. So may be we need to include the phrase "reliable torah source" or something like it, because if you are from the yeshiva world - it means something to you. With that in mind, shortly before you wrote to my user page, I reworked the paragraph to include that phrase. Please feel free to rework it further. Kol tuv, Egfrank 17:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zohar

added it to a couple of places but maybe too prominently. perhaps it should just be included in the list of medieval commentaries? I hope others will figure ou the best thing to do, Slrubenstein | Talk 16:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)