Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jazz

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[edit] Miles Davis not {{Jazz-music-project}} flagged?

The article is listed on the project page under "Featured Articles" but doesn't have the flag. Is that on purpose? --BNutzer 11:26, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Nope, I just didn't get to it last night. When you catch a jazz article without the tag, feel free to add it. --cholmes75 (chit chat) 16:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Search for all tagged articles

Is it possible to search for all articles that have the tag on their talk page? So far I cannot seem to do so. --BNutzer 07:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

You don't need to search. Just go to the project page and click on "What links here". Kestenbaum 12:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
You can also go to Template:Jazz-music-project and click on "what links here." --cholmes75 (chit chat) 13:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Duh. Thanks ;) --BNutzer 18:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To-do list

Anyone have any ideas on some things we can add to the initial to-do list? --cholmes75 (chit chat) 23:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I have an idea: shortening the Jazz article. It's waaay longer than the maximum length prescribed by the WP guideline. Deleting useless information, and place detaillistic information in separate articles rather than in the general Jazz article. MrTroy 18:00, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes: it's horribly long, & very badly balanced (excruciating detail on early jazz, haphazard & brief on bebop to the modern era). Much of the detail can be moved to subsidiary articles if it's worth keeping. -- I've also tried to rewrite the opening to offer a more user-friendly introduction (even if this actually adds a bit to the wordcount!): the original, which had some useless generalities & then a bare list of musicological terms, wasn't much use. ND 18:13, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jazz template

I've just done a minor overhaul of the {jazzbox} template: there was one instance of vandalism that had been let ride for a while ("Milo jazz") & a lot of small problems like misnamed links. It could stll probably use some work. -- Incidentally is it just me or is the distinction between "free jazz" and "avant-garde jazz" unhelpful? I realize that "avant-garde" is more of a catchall term, but the page devoted to it is unhelpful (just a miscellaneous list of players) & the term "avant-garde jazz" really isn't used a lot by fans or players. -- I guess this is why in the period (the 1960s) the term "The New Thing" was used, or just variations on the word "out/outside": it's nonspecific, & can accommodate everyone from the "outside Blue Note sound" of Hill, Rivers, & Hutcherson to the ESP free jazz of Albert Ayler. ND 18:18, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know anyone personally that listens to jazz beside myself, so I doubt my terminology would be of great help (I consider avant-garde jazz more like Charles Mingus and free jazz like Ornette Coleman). But AMG could be used as a source for the articles: avant-garde jazz (includes distinction between free jazz and avant-garde) and free jazz; however, Verve doesn't seem to distinguish between the terms, nor does this site. --JoeTrumpet 13:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid that I'm not of much help here, as free/avant-garde jazz is really not my cup of tea. Sorry. --cholmes75 (chit chat) 18:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested articles

I've added a new subsection under the Articles section for requested articles. Basically, if you can think of a jazz-related subject that doesn't have an article, add it to the list. If you like, a brief description of the suggested article would be good. Anyone who wants to can then add an entry for that article. Please make sure the articles doesn't already exist under another name before adding it to the list. --cholmes75 (chit chat) 03:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Smooth jazz userbox

Alongside the general jazz userbox that exists, I created a smooth jazz userbox within my userspace which looks like: User:Tghe-retford/Userboxes/Smooth Jazz


Which can be added by placing the following code into your userpage: {{User:Tghe-retford/Userboxes/Smooth Jazz}}

I did also add a category to the userbox which places the page of the username into the Category:Wikipedians who enjoy smooth jazz music, but I haven't started the category page yet because I am the only person using the userbox at the moment and I fear the category will get deleted for being underpopulated. --tgheretford (talk) 21:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

My userbox is being speedy deleted under CSD U1, as it is obsolete to {{User Smooth Jazz}} --tgheretford (talk) 17:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

Someone who knows how to upload photos without having them get deleted a week afterwards (as in not myself), should add photos to some of the jazz articles. I can't figure out the whole copyright thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shploo (talk • contribs)

  • The most important things to know about uploading images are that you must always indicate the source of your image, and give a fair use criteria if it is not a free image. If you need more specific help, feel free to drop me a message. --cholmes75 (chit chat) 16:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Format of the project page

To keep the project page from becoming too long with lots of superfluous scrolling needed, I'd like to suggest that - in the list of participants and requested articles - we consider using a format like:

User1 optional text - User2

Article 1 optional text - Article 2 - and so on. Cheers, --BNutzer 22:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jazz

Hm, so what can be done about the "Jazz" page itself? It just seems to me an unmanageable monster of a thing, too long for anyone to read & use. & a consultation with some referencebooks leaves me feeling that it perpetuates a lot of myths about the music's origins (including a lot of phoney/eggcorn etymologies & origin-myths). But it's so long that an overhaul really requires a lot of planning & thought, & I think it'll require some collective will/planning. I suspect also that even citing reference books won't please the folks who prefer to cite myth rather than fact.... ND 04:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think with larger articles, sections within the article need to be given their own articles. For example, the history of jazz could be split into a different article or articles with a timeline (take the History of hip hop music article as an example. See also Wikipedia:Article size). I did a small bit of clean-up on the article this morning. My personal ideas are that the history of jazz, which takes up the vast majority of the article could be separated into a separate article and the jazz article can be expanded, for example, jazz around the world. There is a lot of british jazz that isn't covered in the article (the british jazz article at the moment is just a pathetic stub at the moment) or maybe a brief synopsis of each jazz genre (separate from the history of jazz). I agree that there is a lot of work to be done, not just on the jazz article.
The main sticking point with that article, reading through comments on Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates/Jazz is citing references. --tgheretford (talk) 08:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Jazz on the List of Wikiprojects

I added the Wikiproject onto the List of Wikiprojects under the music section. --tgheretford (talk) 17:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Jazz fusion albums

In my view, categories can be very helpful - if they are maintained ... so I was surprised that in Category:Jazz fusion albums, "basics" like Category:Return to Forever albums were/are missing. If you run into album articles - or even better categories of the Category:Albums by artist type that would match, I suggest to consider adding them to Category:Jazz fusion albums. Cheers, --BNutzer 22:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Canterbury Scene

Partly spurred on by the sad death of Pip Pyle, I've been on a bit of an article-creating spree around the Canterbury scene, which has many overlaps with the British jazz scene. I've created Jeff Clyne, Gilgamesh (band), Alan Gowen, Isotope (band), François Ovide, Soft Heap (band) (and Soft Head), Trevor Tomkins and Alan Wakeman. (I also did Dylan Howe a while back.) I've also done some significant revisions to Canterbury Sceneand Hatfield and the North. However, some of those are very stubby and I've not caught up with good category tabs. I know BNutzer has done a lot of work in this area, so I thought I'd alert you all if anyone wants to help improve these. Bondegezou 15:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your contributions to one of my favorite subjects ;) --BNutzer 20:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
FYI: There is a new Category:Canterbury sound. Cheers, --BNutzer 18:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eddie Sauder?

He's listed in the article Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame, but for the life of me I can't find anything on him. Any of you heard of him? (I love jazz, but there are big blindspots in my knowledge of it)--T. Anthony 15:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

http://www.jazzhall.org (homepage for the organization) used to have a page about everyone there, but the domain registration seems to have expired (or something). I looked up the arranger for Benny Goodman's version of Sing, Sing, Sing and it's Jimmy Mundy (not Eddie Sauder). Given that the website has vanished (it's not even available from the internet archive) I'm not sure if there's much point in keeping the page about the Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame. I've found contact information about the ogranization - I'll try to reach them by phone. -- Rick Block (talk) 17:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Poking around some more, I think it must really be Eddie Sauter, about whom there also is not an existing article but there is info from other sources, e.g. http://www.musicweb-international.com/encyclopaedia/s/S25.HTM. -- Rick Block (talk) 17:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
www.allmusic.com: Eddie Sauter biography --BNutzer 18:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ???

What's involved of being a participant to this WikiProject? I'm considering it, but I wouldn't be signing up to a huge commitment would I?--T. Anthony 06:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing involved actually. You could put your name down and turn your back on the project, nobody is giving you tasks or anything. It's just that if you put your name on the list, you're showing that you support the project. MrTroy 10:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Okey-dokey, then I'll do it. I'm actually willing to do articles on the requested section and already did a few, but I didn't want to be tied down to having to do them if things in my life distract me.--T. Anthony 11:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
If you write/read jazz articles, just make sure by habit that {{Jazz-music-project}} is on their talk page ;) Cheers --BNutzer 16:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Miles Davis

Miles Davis is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 19:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Jazz fusion groups has been renamed to Category:Jazz fusion ensembles

FYI. BNutzer 20:35, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Louis Armstrong

Louis Armstrong is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 14:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs-work list?

The "Requested article" section is fine; what about a "needs a lot of work" section too? For instance, take a look at the flimsy entry for Joe McPhee.... --ND 04:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I got real busy the last few weeks on requested articles, but while doing that I noticed there are several existing articles that need improvement or expansion. Like Roy Eldridge seems to have been a fairly big name, PBS's site has a substantial article on him, but the article here is pretty minor and doesn't even mention his wife[1]. The French, and possibly the Dutch too, Wikipedia's do better. I thought Zoot Sims was fairly well-known but his article, although bigger than Roy's, seems kind of piddling. The thing is these were listed as stubs and I don't know if you can request expansion for stubs. (As it's assumed they need expansion)--T. Anthony 05:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I worked on Joe's article a bit, but I'm not sure how good I did. Feel free to fix any errors.--T. Anthony 05:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I started a section on articles needing expansion or improvement. Feel free to alter it in case I made bad choices.--T. Anthony 11:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians

When creating/editing articles about musicians or bands, I'd like to suggest to add {{WPBiography|musician-work-group=yes}} to the talk page or to insert |musician-work-group=yes to an already present {{WPBiography}} entry on the talk page. Regards, BNutzer 16:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project Directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages:

  • User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory 2,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Philosophy and religion Directory,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Sports Directory,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory/United States, (note: This page will be retitled to more accurately reflect its contents)
  • User:Badbilltucker/History and society directory, and
  • User:Badbilltucker/Science directory

and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 21:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if you tried to update it before, and the corrections were gone. I have now put the new draft in the old directory pages, so the links should work better. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused you. B2T2 00:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The articles needing expansion or improvement

You know at some point we need to decide when a few of these are improved enough to take off. Otherwise we'll just keep adding and adding until it gets absurd. Is anyone making progress on any of them?--T. Anthony 10:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The Like Minds article needed an update to reflect its Grammy Award; but aside from that, I'm not sure what else needs to be said about it — so I'll remove it from the list (and delete its stub tag). And on second thought, I'll remove the item that I added, as well; if somebody wants to fill in the gaps, they can, but you're probably right that the list should be kept better-trimmed. Cribcage 07:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] allaboutjazz.com

I noticed that external links to allaboutjazz.com were removed from several jazz articles. Maybe you find the related discussions on User_talk:Infrogmation#Jazz_link_-_spam.3F and User_talk:Special-T#rm_linkspam.3F interesting. Cheers, BNutzer 20:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See also

[edit] The Penguin Guide to Jazz

I just wanted to let those in the Project (and possibly those outside of it) know that I just received the eighth edition of The Penguin Guide to Jazz today. If anyone would like me to look up anything, feel free to leave me a request at User talk:Moeron. -- moe.RON Let's talk | done 01:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

PS. I also got The Penguin Guide to Blues Recordings in the same package and the same goes with that book as well, FYI. Cheers! -- moe.RON Let's talk | done 01:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FYI: New magic word DEFAULTSORT

See also here. Best (slightly belated) wishes for the new year, BNutzer 15:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Standards - "famous" interpretations

Many articles on tunes from the Great American Songbook feature endless lists of recordings. (One example: Summertime). Are there any guidelines anywhere on how to determine which artists to include (and which ones not to include)? Or is it agreed that the lists should be as inclusive as possible? ---Sluzzelin 23:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Biography Assessment Drive

WikiProject Biography, of which the WikiProject Musicians is a working group, is currently performing an Assessment Drive to rate unassessed articles according to the project's quality scale. Additional participants are highly welcome. Best regards, BNutzer 15:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Portal:Jazz

After being encouraged by someone on my user page, and because it seems so illogical that the German and French Wikipedia's have one but the English one doesn't, I have started a jazz portal at Portal:Jazz. I have filled in the blanks but there is still some work to do that people could contribute to.

Now, off on my Wikibreak as I promised myself... --tgheretford (talk) 14:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Just to note, the Dutch Wikipedia also has a jazz portal. --tgheretford (talk) 15:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Green's solo on the Carnegie Hall Concert 1938

This solo does not exist. I listenend several times to Honeysuckle Rose and there is no guitarsolo between Goodman and Harry James. Please check this too. There is only an empty chorus of the rhythm section before, that one with the laughs. I had to delete this paragraph in our german article. Happy swingin' de:Benutzer:Roomsixhu —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.187.20.240 (talk) 11:24, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Smooth jazz

I am going to post something here as well as the to do list, but the smooth jazz article needs a lot of work to do, if not a complete rewrite. It currently violates a good number of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, notably WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:RS and in turn, WP:N. If it wasn't as popular and as notable as it is (though this isn't implied or cited in the article) it could be ripe for nomination for deletion. I wish to bring this to the attention of the WikiProject in the hope a member who has any time to devote can help. Thank you. --tgheretford (talk) 20:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I have noted concerns about WP:NOR on the smooth jazz talk page and I also suspect WP:NOT#DIR may also have been violated, but I shall check and verify that later. --tgheretford (talk) 08:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup taskforce

I have asked the Cleanup taskforce if anyone can help improve the article, citing the concerns (and a few I have also found) above. Full details of all the problems with the article are here: Wikipedia:Cleanup Taskforce/Smooth jazz. --tgheretford (talk) 16:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Category:New Orleans jazz musicians

As this is the birthplace of jazz music, I find it puzzling that this category does not already exist. Thoughts? (Mind meal 05:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

Sounds reasonable to me. -- Infrogmation 15:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
There's already Category:Musicians of New Orleans (my creation as it happens, not that that's relevant). It's not exactly overpopulated yet. In general, subdivisions of musician by both genre and location (below the national level) are deleted quickly at WP:CFD. I would call this problematic at best, at least as long as the parent category is easily navigable. But that's just my gut reaction, I dunno. Xtifr tälk 04:48, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
(Followup) What might make more sense is a list, say, List of early New Orleans Jazz musicians. (Other suggestions for names are welcomed.) I think this would make more sense, because, while NOLA may be the birthplace of Jazz, not every Jazz musician from NOLA was a part of that birth. A list or list/article would make it easier to focus on the actual history that we want to focus on, and wouldn't be subject to attack by the Wikipedia:Overcategorization patrol. See also: Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes. Xtifr tälk 09:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion on eliminating Category:(Nationality) (instrument) by genre from the categorization guidelines

For those interested in how musicians are classified, but who do not have the WikiProject Musicians/Categorization talk page on your watch list, I have started a discussion here about whether we need the category level of Category:American pianists by genre, etc, and I would appreciate views being expressed (at that location, of course). My (possibly incomplete) list of categories that would be upmerged if the guidelines change as I suggest is here. Bencherlite 22:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An AfD, and a new template

FYI, I recreated the List of jazz clubs article, and it is now up for its 2nd AfD. I also created a template of jazz lists. - Freechild 18:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Narvin Kimball

Is there hope for this article Narvin Kimball? I had posted a {{db-bio}} on it and then User:Wafulz and discussed it's merits so I am bring it here at his suggestion. Jeepday (talk) 00:21, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion moved fromUser_talk:Wafulz#Narvin_Kimball

Not sure where you are seeing the notability WP:MUSIC. [2] I agree that he had been a banjo player for a long time, but I don't see where that makes him notable. If you are seeing something that I missed could you point it out to me? Music is not my high suite so I often miss things that others see. Jeepday (talk) 00:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

From this revision I saw that he'd played with several notable artists. I also had to remove copyrighted information copied from three websites- so that's three independent sources. --Wafulz 03:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, it can be helpful if you are able to list the references when you find them. In its current version the next editor who comes along may assume WP not Memorial applies. Jeepday (talk) 12:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually he might be a merge candidate or something. The sources I found aren't as independent as I thought, but he had an obituary in NPR and The Guardian and all sorts of non-commercial jazz websites, leading me to believe that he was probably well known within the jazz world. Maybe Wikipedia:WikiProject Jazz could help? --Wafulz 13:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
If he is notable maybe someone on Wikipedia:WikiProject Jazz would be willing to fix up his article. If not I can put a {{Prod}} on it and that should either encourage others to address it or in 5 days it gets deleted. Jeepday (talk) 00:25, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time to replace Infobox Guitarist?

There have been a growing number of Wikipedians questioning the need for a separate infobox for guitarists. The {{Guitarist infobox}} was created by Wikipedia:WikiProject Guitarists, and it easily survived a deletion nomination back in September of last year, but that was before {{Infobox musical artist}} (which is supported by Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians) became a widely accepted standard. Both infoboxes are currently endorsed by Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography, but recent discussions between some members of the Guitarist and Musician Wikiprojects have concluded that it may be time to deprecate the guitarist infobox, and start replacing it. (Unfortunately, this is not a task for bots, and will have to be done manually.)

Before making any final decision on the matter, we would like to get feedback from the broader community, so I am posting this notice to several Wikiprojects which may be affected. Comments should be posted to Template talk:Guitarist infobox. If you have strong feelings about this infobox, one way or the other, please feel free to let us know. Thanks, Xtifr tälk 12:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New citation template

I have created {{NewGroveJazz2002}} as a quick and easy method of citing The New Grove Dictionary of Jazz, 2nd ed. I'm thinking of adding this to the list of templates on the project page. Any objections? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Euro-jazz musicians?

The new Category:Euro-jazz musicians has been created within the equally new Category: Jazz musicians by genre. IMHO, there is no such jazz genre as "Euro-jazz", is there? Why is Air (jazz group) in that "Euro-jazz" category, aren't all Air members American? --BNutzer 23:17, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's a poorly defined category. The musicians are already in regional categories such as Category:German jazz musicians, Category:Polish jazz musicians, etc. so no need for an overriding regional category. But the category purports to sit under Category:Jazz musicians by genre and the musicians just ain't part of one genre. Sounds like a category which should be nominated for deletion? AllyD 20:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Hello there. The category (imo) is self explanatory and potentially useful. However, I did think it would come under scrutiny for those unfamiliar with its usage. It is really no different from, say, Category:American jazz musicians. It is a loose term, and should ideally become the parent category for all European jazz musicians. If someone would like to change the name to European jazz musicians, I don't care really; though the term is widely used, regardless of your unfamiliarity with it. Ignorance should never be means for deletion, though it does belong in jazz musicians by region and not by genre. I don't care if the category is deleted, however. it could easily be argued the information is readily available in more specific regional categories.
  1. Euro Jazz Innovators

(Mind meal 22:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC))

That link solves the query about why Air (jazz group) had been categorised; apparently what was meant was Air (band), the French electro-pop duo. Not a group which many people would regard as jazz, but maybe perspectives look flattened from afar. AllyD 22:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Jazz ensembles shouldn't be in a musicians category; they should be in a musical group category. And by-continent categories are generally frowned upon. See for example Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 June 16#Category:Asian people by occupation which removed Category:Asian musicians among others. Xtifr tälk 20:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

  • But Category:Asian musicians is not a musicial genre, so obviously "Asian groups" would not go there, but instead under a genre specific musician's heading. I don't see any other route that would make sense, as those looking for genre-specific ensembles and bands will expect to see them in the genre-specific ensemble section of a genre-specific musician's category. If that makes sense. (Mind meal 06:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
  • Yeah I agree that the category should be deleted. (Mind meal 20:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC))
How about you nominating it for deletion at WP:CFD then? BNutzer 21:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
  • However, jazz "ensembles", groups, trios, bands, duos...whatever...why the heck can't they go into the "jazz musicians" category? They are in fact jazz musicians of whatever genre we may happen to place them in, aren't they? I mean if you want to go ahead and reorganize it all again, be my guest. (Mind meal 21:04, 25 June 2007 (UTC))
  • I have nominated the category for deletion here. I hope this can solve the matter. (Mind meal 22:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Category:Brazilian jazz musicians

  • I am very eager to begin putting all Brazilian jazz musicians in the mother category, as it is both a genre and national identity. I believe this will make it easier for people to access and categorize such musicians. I wanted to give everyone a head's up so that they would not be confused when seeing the mother category appearing with instrument-specific categorizations in articles. I hope this is alright with everyone. Please see Brazilian jazz for my rationale that it is also a genre in addition to being an identifier by nationality. Of course, when more specific categorization is appropriate (ie. bossa nova, et cetera), I will not use the mother category in favor instead of using Category:Bossa nova musicians. This is one of those rare cases where the nationality and genre both share the same name.(Mind meal 07:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC))
This (unlike Euro-jazz musicians above, which should go) is an ideal category! However, it should also be sub-divided by instrument, and should have a companion category, Category:Brazilian jazz ensembles for musical groups, which should be a subcategory of Category:Brazilian musical groups and Category:Jazz ensembles. Xtifr tälk 08:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't mean to seem cross if I do sometimes, I really don't. But if you want to divide them all up by instrument, please go ahead and do that. I have other focuses of interest at the moment. (Mind meal 22:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC))
I guess I do sound cross most of the time with certain members. I'm really sorry for that, especially the way I have sometimes handled myself with Xtifr and BNutzer. I think I suffer from WP:Users with oppositional disorder, lol. I also have a question that has been nagging at me for some time, however. Is it inappropriate to categorize a musician by, say, Category:Soul-jazz musicians AND Category:Soul-jazz organists? I continue to get the feeling that people side with instrumentation only in such cases. I just would like to have this cleared up for myself for future edits. Thanks! (Mind meal 22:52, 25 June 2007 (UTC))
As for by-instrument: no rush. It's something we want in the long run, but it doesn't have to be done right away. As for the question about Category:Soul-jazz musicians vs Category:Soul-jazz organists, the general principle, which applies to almost all Wikipedia categories, is that an article in a subcategory should not also be listed in the parent category. Usually. (At least, that's the current consensus, although there are many who strongly disagree.) Xtifr tälk 10:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks a bunch, and for your advice on my talk page. It all makes a lot of sense to me finally, as I didn't see why they were not included in both prior to going through this process of categorization. I'm learning a lot here, thanks to members like yourself. Thanks a lot. Oh, and btw, I am actually starting to see the problem with Category:New Orleans jazz musicians now. It would probably be better if we did away with that category, and created a new Category:Classic jazz musicians; and then give all the sub-divisions from there. What do you think? :) (Mind meal 10:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
  • I am a wiki addict for sure. At any rate, may i propose we overhaul the usage of Category:Brazilian jazz musicians to Category:Jazz musicians of Brazil? I say this because there is going to be some confusion on whether it specifies the genre or nationality. I would then propose we keep Category:Brazilian jazz musicians as the identifier for the genre, not nationality. Anyone willing to help me bring this about? (Mind meal 21:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Category:Jazz musicians by genre

Controversial (considering how many people detest it and wish to see it destroyed off the face of the earth), but why isn't smooth jazz included? --tgheretford (talk) 06:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

  • It is included, actually. It is a sub-genre of jazz fusion, and is in the drop-down menu. I share the dislike for the genre, though I'm not sure how you feel about it! (Mind meal 06:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC))
I actually like smooth jazz (*ducks for cover*). Good to see it is there, but... it will need renaming in line with the other articles one for categories for discussion. --tgheretford (talk) 12:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Actually, "Smooth jazz" should have articles about the genre, but not performers (and should only exist if there are enough such articles to justify it). Category:Smooth jazz musicians and Category:Smooth jazz ensembles should exist as separate categories (the former can be subdivided by instrument, though I won't insist on it, and a lot of similar sub-genre musician categories aren't). For general guidelines on categorizing musicians and musical groups, see WP:MUSCAT. (Following existing standards will not only help reduce confusion, but will give your categories a much higher chance of surviving CfD.) Xtifr tälk 20:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Klezmer

You know I wish we could somehow include this tradition within the genre of jazz somehow, though I believe it would be highly controversial. It really essentially falls under the free jazz category, although Klezmer did come long before jazz. It would be interesting to see the tradition somehow included. Thoughts on what could be done? Thoughts on how stupid an idea this is?! :) (Mind meal 10:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC))

Klezmer really is similar music. I'd be surprised if jazz isn't heavily influenced by it. That said, it is music from southeast europe and nothern africa that is similar as well. Broadening the category makes sense, but it's important we don't take it too far. Klezmer is from another tradition, but i'll give my vote for it as it's so close musically. Do you now if it used to be improvised? Pharaohmø 23:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah the tradition definitely had improvisational tendencies early on, as the musicians were known to take certain liberties with the music. In some cases, there have been those that have even argued that Klezmer was the earliest form of jazz music. The case certainly could be argued from a strong position. However, we generally accept dixieland to be the first true "medium", though as we know ragtime was the precursor. That brings me to an entirely different subject I have been thinking of. Do you think we could include some like Pre-jazz musicicians, and break that into sub-categories that would include ragtime, etc. for inclusion in Category:Jazz musicians by genre? Just a thought that has been nagging me of late. (Mind meal 00:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
  • As another thought, there is a loosely defined Klez-jazz genre out there. I believe it would likely go under the free jazz musicians category. Maybe that would do. (Mind meal 10:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Not sure this is appropriate

I think working on jazz articles and with the jazz project was probably the most fun I had at Wikipedia. Maybe the only fun after a certain point. However I have to get my academic career back on track so I'm planning on quitting, possibly for good. So that's why I'm dropping out of it. It's not a renunciation of it, so much as of Wikipedia as a whole. Good luck to you all, adios.--T. Anthony 14:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The St. Louis Blues

A proposal is currently ongoing to move the article on the hockey team currently at St. Louis Blues (hockey) to St. Louis Blues, currently a disambiguation. Anyone wishing to state an opinion on the matter may do so at Talk:St._Louis_Blues_(hockey). -- Infrogmation 22:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cubop

I encountered this article just now and have some problems with it. For one, it is merely another way of saying Afro-Cuban jazz. I believe it should be made a redirect page to Afro-Cuban jazz. Also, the concept of cubop is often mischaracterized. There have been some on the web who claim cubop is synonymous with Latin jazz, and the same for Afro-Cuban jazz. Thankfully our article on Wikipedia recognizes Afro-Cuban jazz as a unique subgenre of Latin jazz, not to be confused as literally BEING Latin jazz. Afro-Cuban jazz, put simply, is any form of jazz improvisation that is combined with African and Cuban rhythms; the styles vary considerably from artist to artist. Cubop may be acceptable as a subgenre of Afro-Cuban jazz, but right now the article is not referenced. I am unsure about how to go about doing something about this without stepping on toes. I thought this may be a good place to begin. (Mind meal 06:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC))

I agree--it should redirect to Afro-Cuban jazz Blueswalk 14:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested Article: American Jazz

Is this article needed, or is it redundant? Blueswalk 19:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Redundant. --ND 20:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Jazz albums by artist

There is currently a discussion underway at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_July_9#Category:Jazz_albums_by_artist. I believe that all Category:Albums by artist should be broken down into genre+albums+by artist, as Category:Jazz albums by artist has done. Nobody ever browses Category:Albums by artist. If they want to find someone, they will just search for their article and look for a discography there. Please see Category:Jazz albums to get a feel for what potential this wields. Far from impeding navigation, I believe this accelerates it in a much more useful manner. Otherwise, people have to just randomly click on an album title in say, Category:Jazz albums, not knowing anything about it. Albums need major work in terms of categorization, and I think that this is a good first step. (Mind meal 15:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC))

I'm just waiting for the inevitable merge of Category:Jazz into Category:Music! Why are they targeting and deleting jazz categories? Is jazz the test case for this new system or is there something else going on? --tgheretford (talk) 20:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:ALBUMS naming scheme enigma

There is a proposal in the works for making all album titles include the artist name in parenthesis following the title, ie. Second Genesis (Wayne Shorter album). This is because there is a problem categorizing artist albums into subgenres with our current categorization and naming schemes at WP:ALBUMS. Take the example of Category:Hard bop albums. Per the album's project own guideline, actual albums cannot be placed in that category. So adding Category:Hard bop albums to an album article is not allowed, instead one must create Category:John Coltrane hard bop albums and then make that new category appear in the Category:Hard bop albums category. If you are still with me here, I congratulate you. So I have personally tried to do it according to the guidelines, only to find that it requires way too much work and that there is a much simpler solution. If an album title included the artist name in parenthesis like the example I gave in the opening sentence, then editors could just list an album directly into Category:Hard bop albums without creating a new category for every artist that might have an album that falls into that category. It should be said that often an album that performs hard bop may also have bebop elements, or some other subgenre like free jazz. That means just one artist album may require 3 or even more unique categories just to fall into accordance with WP:ALBUMS guideline. And that is to be done with every musician known to man. It just doesn't make sense. The problem stems from the fact that I can't just place Category:John Coltrane albums in the Category:Hard bop albums category, because not every John Coltrane album is hard bop. I realize that the naming proposal is "controversial", but it seems to me that this is our best solution. Otherwise, WP:ALBUMS is satisfied with mediocre coverage of albums, categorizing Category:John Coltrane albums in Category:Jazz albums, end of story. But some of those albums REQUIRE a breakdown by subgenre to be both honest and accurate in their coverage. Otherwise we cannot even have subgenres, not because albums don't fall under subgenres- but because current rules governing albums will not permit proper categorization in a logical and straightforward fashion. I can tell you personally that I have tried categorizing albums using the Category:John Coltrane hard bop albums method, and I can testify that it is a waste of time and time consuming. It has also been called overcategorization by some users. The current scheme makes it possible for albums to only be placed in the most generic of genres, ie. jazz. If one wants to categorize a Frank Sintra album as a swing music album, they have to create Category:Frank Sinatra swing albums for it to "legally" appear in Category:Swing albums. Note that albums you see that reside at the swing albums category page that appear there by themselves are incorrect per WP:ALBUMS guidelines. A discussion is underway at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Albums#Yet_another_proposal, and the reception has been anything but enthusiastic. I'm not sure those involved with the discussion have taken the time to even deal with subgenres, therefore they cannot understand the scope of this problem. I thought I'd introduce the discussion here also, to get more input on the matter. Thanks. (Mind meal 18:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC))

  • Update. Apparently now we cannot even categorize albums the pathetic way, ie. Category:John Coltrane avant-garde jazz albums. See proposal for merger at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_July_17#Jazz_albums. It seems there is absolutely no way to categorize jazz albums properly by genre. That is the clear message I am getting. (Mind meal 16:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Lists discussion

A discussion is underway that could very well affect lists of musicians in the future at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Electric blues musicians. Everyone is welcome to participate in the debate. (Mind meal 15:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Category:WikiProject Jazz articles

Category:WikiProject Jazz articles has been created, and talk pages with the project template {{Jazz-music-project}} will automatically show in that category.

[edit] Subcategories?

Now that the category exists, it is possible to have subcategories, too ... and they could be filled by additional flags that the template could also support. Adding the flag would add an article to a subcategory. I list some that come to mind, for discussion and for the list to be expanded ...

[edit] Albums

With album articles getting tagged for the project, maybe an "album" flag in the template would be wise that automatically puts those articles into a subcategory for album articles.

I agree, though I haven't quite figured out the syntax, myself. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Y Done. Since I cannot really imagine reasons for members objecting to this, I have implemented it: using {{Jazz-music-project|album=yes}} on a talk page adds that talk page to Category:WikiProject Jazz album articles. BNutzer 12:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Album articles also in parent "articles" category?

I left a note on the template talk page; do we want to omit it from the parent "WP Jazz" category if it falls under the album category? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

To prevent confusion: the parent category is "WP Jazz articles", which is in the "grandparent" category "WP Jazz". BNutzer 22:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that we keep all tagged articles in "WP Jazz articles" and additionally add them to subcategories if wanted. Other projects also do that (e.g. WP Albums), and it might be useful for edits by bots to have them all in one place - and as an overview ... BNutzer 22:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
That's fine, thanks again! -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] bio / nobio

[edit] bio

Articles about persons or groups of persons, e.g. musicians, producers, composers, producers, ensembles ...

[edit] nobio

Albums, lists, (sub-)genres, locations ...

[edit] Assistance requested

Articles where an editor is requesting assistance of some kind ...

[edit] By quality

The assessment classes that various projects use: stub, start, B, A ... see e.g. WikiProject Biography/Assessment#Quality_scale. In my view, starting a jazz project assessment process would require several (if not many) members' support in order to be promising.
BNutzer 21:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

P.S.: For an assessment start, it might be possible to have some bot copy existing WPBiography assessment classifications for an article to a jazz banner on the talk page. With most project articles also being WPBio ones, that would do a lot of the work ... BNutzer 22:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Songs?

There are a few songs, compositions etc. in the WP Jazz parent category. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, they had also come to my mind ... IMHO, they are also worth a subcategory. I am not happy with the idea of calling it "song articles", though, especially with many jazz tunes being instrumentals, how about "WikiProject Jazz compositions articles"? Not being a native english speaker, I am not sure what could be the best wording. Any other naming suggestions? BNutzer 23:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I suggest "WikiProject Jazz composition articles", in which "composition" is singular (like you did with "album articles"). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Y Done: using {{Jazz-music-project|song=yes}} on a talk page adds that talk page to Category:WikiProject Jazz composition articles. BNutzer 20:29, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sort key in categories

Currently, the template adds {{PAGENAME}} as the sort key for a talk page, e.g. Talk:Miles Davis is sorted under M(iles Davis), Talk:The Mahavishnu Orchestra is sorted under T(he Mahavishnu Orchestra). This could be changed by using a template parameter "|listas=", e.g "|listas=Davis, Miles" to have it listed under D(avis, Miles). In my view, that would be nice to have, but it is only useful if most articles have the parameter set (otherwise you'd never know how an article is listed). It may be possible to have a bot copy existing listas parameters from WPBiography tags, otherwise editors would have to add the parameter. Since only Gyrofrog has shown interest in the categorization lately, I have no idea how interesting this is for project members, and I wonder if there is a consensus whether that feature should be added to the template. Regards, BNutzer 12:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Progressive jazz

The article Progressive jazz has been proposed for deletion as not being about a proper genre. But I also found a category Category:Progressive jazz musicians that I linked there and to Category:Jazz musicians by genre. Nevertheless, the description in the article and the musicians don't always fit. At this point I'd like to leave the matter whether there is such a genre and who belongs there, in your competent hands. --Tikiwont 15:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The fact that the list of progressive jazz musicians is (a) very short and (b) virtually random is further evidence that the category is virtually useless. --ND 18:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cross sub-catgerisation between albums and musicians of a genre

I noticed that Category:Free jazz albums was a subcategory of Category:Free jazz musicians and vice versa and removed it. It might be convenient for navigational purposes but seemed not very logical to me. There are some other genre cats such as Category:Bebop musicians (but not all) where the albums are listed as sub-cat in the musicians category. Should they all be removed or is there some motive to keep them? --Tikiwont 15:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "African Jazz" musicians etc

Several categories are up for rename discussion at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_September_26#.22African_Jazz.22_musicians AllyD 17:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influence of saxophonist Candy Dulfer

I am working on the article about Candy Dulfer, and I hoped that someone could help me with the section on her influence on Joyce Cooling, Pamela Williams, and Mindi Abair. The influence section has no references, and so far I didn't find any good sources. – Ilse@ 21:52, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed the section, but your help is still appreciated. – Ilse@ 11:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Replacing simplicity

Alternate views are solicited. Please join in this conversation about the Template:Jazzfooter. • Freechild'sup? 13:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article needing urgent attension

Hi, I am not part of this wiki project, but as a jazz fan I did notice the article Jazz royalty had a prod tag placed on it yesterday and is likely to get deleted soon. There is zero references in the article. Can someone even come up with a source using the term "Jazz royalty" in this same concept? If someone out there can rescue this article by adding sources or justifying its existance, great, do it soon. Otherwise I think there is some decent info in the article that should be easy to verify and use and a possibly new and more appropriate article. So hopefully there is a project member up for this. Russeasby (talk) 17:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hi again

I might rejoin, but I haven't decided. Anyway someone asked if anyone even still pays attention to Wikipedia:Requested articles/music/Jazz so I thought I'd ask here.--T. Anthony (talk) 00:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I've returned I guess.--T. Anthony (talk) 08:27, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Future of the Smooth jazz article - views needed

I wish to bring attention to the start of a debate on the future of the Smooth jazz article, being discussed here: Talk:Smooth jazz#"What to do with an article beyond cleanup?" - the future of this article. --tgheretford (talk) 19:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Down Beat Hall of Fame

I want to point out a discussion underway here on the merits of the category Down Beat Jazz Hall of Fame inductees. -- J. Van Meter (talk) 21:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Active?

Just curious...is this Wikiproject still active? How many regular members does it have? Chubbles (talk) 21:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I've been more active than usual over the past few days, though I'm not sure it's enough to warrant taking down the {{inactive}} banner from the project page. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 01:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I think I'll take down the "inactive". Work on articles continues to be active; the project page seems only to be active when discussion is needed, but that's not to say there is lack of interest nor editing related to the subject. -- Infrogmation (talk) 02:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't know how you'd define "active"--I think people still make edits, & there are a few proactive folks like Mind meal. I must confess that I kind of got weary last year during the really ugly spats about main Jazz article & the endless battle to prevent creeping Gaelicization of Jazz (word).... haven't been so active lately. --ND (talk) 18:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Eftekasat!

Hey guys... what's up? nice work on the project, keep it up. Anyway, i wanted to request a rating on the Eftekasat article and the 'sub-pages' like Mouled Sidi El-Latini. Can anyone help me with this? Thanks :) Maged M. Mahfouz (talk) 21:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Categorization scheme

I would like to propose a new categorization scheme for jazz musicians. Currently musicians are categorized by specific instruments in specific genres. The mother categories, for example Category:Jazz flautists, is virtually empty. I believe this impedes category navigation, that we should have all musicians of a specific instrument appear in the mother category and genre-specific categories. This would make categorization a bit simpler imo. If anyone has better suggestions or agree to this, please voice opinions here. If a consensus can be reached, we can then appoint individuals who can go about repopulating mother categories. (Mind meal (talk) 03:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC))

That sounds better, not least as someone who played say Tenor + Soprano saxes and had played both Bop and Free could end up carrying a screed of multiple categories. The suggested alternative gives two-dimensional categorisation which is tidier. AllyD (talk) 12:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Discussion hasn't exactly been buzzing on this proposal, but it is worth noting that there is a CFD discussion on merging Jazz samba <instrument> categories into Bossa nova <instrument> categories here. AllyD (talk) 21:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who appears in this photo?

We recently had a photo of Billie Holiday and Cozy cole released to Wikipedia that has three other musicians in the shot with Holiday and two with Cole. Can anyone help to identify them? (Mind meal (talk) 20:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC))

Left photo with Billie Holiday: The bass player is Walter Page, the drummer looks like Ray Bauduc. Don't recognize the pianist, will try look, but meanwhile this personnel should help finding it.
(added later). Ok, I'm guessing that the pianist might be Claude Hopkins. ---Sluzzelin talk 10:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame

I started the article Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame under the impression that it was an actual award. The hall of fame inductees used to be listed on a subpage under http://www.jazzhall.org/ (available on the wayback machine, here). This website is defunct, and as far as I can tell the same folks now run http://www.bigbandjazzorch.org/, which appears to be a big band based in Oceanside, CA (no hall of fame). As far as I know this big band, and the organization's defunct hall of fame, have no particular notability. Does anyone know any different from this? If not, I'll take the article to WP:AFD. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:02, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you're safe AFD-ing it. I haven't consciously encountered this in jazz literature, quite unlike the notable and often quoted Down Beat Jazz Hall of Fame. Google books yields very few hits, and only in publications that are not about jazz (Chu Berry's induction in 1984 is mentioned in a book on Wheeling, West Virginia, Yank Lawson is described as "a member of the" BBaJHoF in a travel guide of Missouri highways, and there is a reference to Quincy Jones's induction in 1988 in an Italian book on TV trivia. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC)