Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/September 2006

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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Japan To-do: edit purge Improve ASIMO Burakumin and Buraku Liberation League Takako Doi Chikamatsu Monzaemon Education in Japan Japanese architecture Japanese art Japanese robotics List of Emperors of Japan (transl. from ja) Emperor Yozei of Japan List of Japanese artists Namioka, Aomori Nihonjinron Sadako Ogata Ōishi Yoshio Okinawa (stub), Ryukyu Islands Politics of Japan Yagyu Shinkage-ryu Center Shiken (大学入試センター試験) More... Review First Sino-Japanese War Hinduism in Japan Inland Sea Kigo Narihira Santosen Temple Sazae-san Stroke order Heizo Takenaka Giovanni Battista Sidotti Requests See Requested articles Listed for deletion See this page, this page, and this page for lists. Grammar corrections Gaijin Takefuji Need images Every prefecture, see Subdivisions of Japan Sendai - Add demographic images More... Translate from Japanese Wikipedia Iemoto (家元) Blue Ribbon Award (Film) (ブルーリボン賞 (映画)) Gesaku (ja:戯作) More... Transliterations missing for Military ranks and insignia of the Japan Self-Defense Forces Wikify Ibaraki University Ikawa, Shizuoka Ima, Ai ni Yukimasu Japanese sculpture Mori Goro Sangaria (soft drink) Shaken Takefuji Vote: Watch this list — Edit this list

Contents 1 Any Shiina Ringo fans out there? 2 Image:Koizumi manifesto.png 3 J-Rock 4 Template:Japanese prime ministers 5 FAR listing of Go (board game) 6 Takeda/Sengoku cavalry charge 7 Sea of Japan naming dispute 8 Template:Japanese baseball team 9 Elections in Japan 10 Sudoko FAR review 11 Bishōjo game 12 Fan fiction and theme songs 13 Macrons 14 Tagging talk pages and assessing articles 15 Translation vs. transliteration 16 Hiroshige 17 Suikinkutsu 18 Barnsensu userbox 19 Japan-related templates

Any Shiina Ringo fans out there?

I've just created the Shiina Ringo discography page, but I need help getting the songs'/albums' kanji/kana names, as I am but a novice when it comes to this. The 2½ albums that are already done were done a long time ago by someone who doesn't seem to be coming back and I would greatly appreciate any help in finally getting this done. Thanks. MightyMoose22 ^{>Abort, Retry, Fail?_} 12:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Image:Koizumi manifesto.png

This image, uploaded by now-inactive editor TakuyaMurata, has been tagged for deletion because it lacks information about its source. Anyone who knows where this image came from can add the info to the image description page, and then remove the {{no source}} line. Regards, Awyong Jeffrey Mordecai Salleh 15:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 17:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Question, can we not only scale this image down but perhaps make it a jpeg file? IMHO, while this is a good quality scan, I think it is too big for it to be fair use and also should not be a PNG image (which should be used for raster graphics). User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 19:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

JPEGs are raster graphics, too, so I don't really see how that would make a difference. I believe the file being used is the exact file as found on the source site. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 17:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll try it and see how it works. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

J-Rock

There was a cut and paste move of J-Rock to Japanese rock and the category was subsequently redone without a WP:CFD rename request. So input is requested at the CfR for J-Rock and at a WP:RM on Japanese rock. 132.205.45.148 03:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Template:Japanese prime ministers

In my view, this should be further subdivided a little in order to reflect the dramatic changes that have occurred in the Prime Minister's power, from Itō through to Tojo and up to the present day. The problem is, I don't quite know how to subdivide it. We could do it by Imperial Era, but that would encompass both military dictators and democratic leaders during the Shōwa period, which obviously saw the greatest changes. We could do it by Constitution–Meiji and the current one–though we would have to note that Itō served his first term before the Meiji Constitution was promulgated. Personally, I'm partial to this solution. But there might be others, ot we could just leave it alone. What say you? Biruitorul 03:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

FAR listing of Go (board game)

The article Go (board game) is currently on featured article review, meaning it may lose its featured status if not significantly improved. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 17:09, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Takeda/Sengoku cavalry charge

Please join in the discussion over at Talk:Battle of Nagashino. There appears to be a debate over the extent to which cavalry charges did or did not occur in feudal Japan. LordAmeth 18:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

If I knew anything at all about cavalry charges in feudal Japan, I'd be there. Unfortunately, I know nothing about them. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 23:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Me too! Man, the fact that this is something that can actively be debated over astounds me. The level of some peoples knowledge is really impressive! MightyAtom 23:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Sea of Japan naming dispute

Hi. This is Wikimachine, and I am not part of the WikiProject. But I have been working on Sea of Japan naming dispute, and I saw that the article was rated as 'start'. I have various reasons to believe that the article does not deserve 'start', and that the grading was biased to a point. The article is probably one of the most developed articles, striving for neutrality on such a controversial issue. There are 3 archives full of discussions, conflicts, votes, and consensus. Please reconsider your grading for the article. Status quo does no justice to those who spent countless amount of hours to work on the article. (Wikimachine 04:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC))

I agree! It is definitely not start class! I raised its ranking up to B, although it can probably be put through a formal Good Article review. MightyAtom 04:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "status quo does no justice" as a Start rating is hardly "status quo". Regardless of that, however, article ratings are free to be changed by any member of the project if that member thinks the article doesn't fit into the criteria for the given class. Thanks for taking care of that, MightyAtom. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much. "Status quo" means the current situation. Thanks. (Wikimachine 00:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC))

Yes, I'm aware of the meaning of "status quo", but that's not what I was questioning. I wrote, "I'm not sure what you mean by 'status quo does no justice' as a Start rating is hardly 'status quo'." There's a big difference. Either way, it's been handled. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Template:Japanese baseball team

I've recently created this infobox for use in the articles about Japanese professional baseball teams. All the information is already on all the pages in non-infobox form, but I thought this would be a bit more organized. The box is currently featured on the Orix Buffaloes page for testing. If everyone likes it, we can go ahead and apply it to each teams page. El Cid 05:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks good (sorry for being slow to comment). ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 17:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Elections in Japan

I've started some work on local and prefectural elections in Japan, as can be seen in Category:Elections in Japan. But there seems to be very few sources on the net, does anyone here know good places to find information? --Jonte-- 16:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I found this site, but I don't know how complete (or accurate) it is. http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Poplar/5755/senkyoichiran.htm He also has links to other resources, but nothing I could find in a brief search could top his list. I don't know of any official government site that tracks elections. Neier 13:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

hi, "選挙管理委員会 (Senkyo Kanri Iinkai, 選挙管理委員会^?)" category in Y!Japan[1] lists 44 prefectual election administration commitees out of 47. Most of those sites have the original data of recent election results. Masao 01:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Sudoko FAR review

Hi everyone. Sudoku is currently undergoing a Featured article review. Please go here to leave comments and help us maintain its featured quality. Marskell 09:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Bishōjo game

Bishōjo game is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 00:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Fan fiction and theme songs

The links to Fan Fiction and Theme songs should be removed, since fan fiction and theme songs appear in all forms of media from many different nationalities, thus they are not directly related to Japan. For example, Star Wars has a theme song, the Simpsons have a theme song, Futurama has a theme song, etc. It's like adding a link to Wikipedia:WikiProject Television or to Wikipedia:WikiProject Food and drink since the Japanese watch television and eat food.--TBCTaLk?!? 19:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

As these are links to related topics (as indicated by the column/section header under which they are found), I don't see why it matters if they are there. Fan fiction is very closely related to Japan as the general popularity of it was greatly magnified by the very large number of anime and manga fans who participate. Yes, there are fan fictions written outside of the anime and manga setting, but do a search for it in any search engine and the vast majority will be related to anime and manga. As for the Theme songs WikiProject, again I ask, "Why does it matter if the link is there?" It's meant to point people to a related project (as all anime, and even some manga, have theme songs). ···日本穣 ^{· Talk to Nihonjoe} 20:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

But how "related" are these related topics? Using my previous example, couldn't someone add Wikipedia:WikiProject Television or to Wikipedia:WikiProject Food and drink since the Japanese watch television and eat food?--TBCTaLk?!? 21:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, someone could add them. But why do you even care what links are on the project page of a project in which you aren't actively participating? Please note that this question is asked sincerely, without any ill will or intent. If you don't want to list yourself as a participant of a particular project, why does it matter to you what that project decides to link to on that project's page? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 21:05, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Well... I am the founder/active participant of Wikipedia:WikiProject Nintendo, which is a descendant WikiProject of Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan. Either way, I do admit that I may be over-reacting a bit to a small technicality. :) --TBCTaLk?!? 21:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to search through the history of the page to see who added them (who knows? it may have been me). I think the Theme song project may be pushing things as far as "related" projects go, but the fan fiction link is definitely related. And both of them may actually be more appropriate for placement somewhere on the Anime and manga project page. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 21:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, I wouldn't have the slightest problem if Wikipedia:WikiProject Food and drink and Wikipedia:WikiProject Television were added to the project page. I don't see how it hurts anything in any way. Japanese cuisine exists as a page, so I can see the relation. Maybe those should be added as well! MightyAtom 14:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Macrons

I've already listed this on the front page of the Project, but I'd like to place it in talk for better visibility.

I think it is about time we begin to really crack-down on having articles contain properly macronned spellings, both within the text and in titles. (all according to WP:MOS-JA, as decided some time ago).

I have begun to make moves and changes on my own, but this is a massive project, and I think we're really going to need a lot of people to chip in to make this work. Please, if you have any spare time & energy, search through articles for things that ought to be macronned (e.g. Hojo clan --> Hōjō clan) and change them. Move articles to their proper places, and the non-macronned redirects will be made automatically. Just remember that certain very common words (daimyo, Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto) do NOT take macrons according to our Manual of Style.

Thank you all. LordAmeth 14:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been doing this as I run across articles that need it. The hard part is locating all of them. (^_^) ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 21:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I know I am very stupid but....how do you type a macron on a computer? MightyAtom 22:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Depends on your OS. The easiest way, though, is to use the Insert box found below every Editing box on Wikipedia. Just add a reply to this, and look down below the "Save page", "Show preview" and "Show changes" buttons. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I just have a quick question. I recently started creating a few entries on the topic of Saiō‎ (and had a few hick-ups that are now sorted) as it directly relates to the town I live in and is an important but little know aspect of Japanese history. The region relevant to the article is called, using macrons, "Saikũ" (斎宮). The problem I have is that within the region of Saikũ, at the Saikũ Museum, on prefectural train station maps and all other references to the name here within the area it is spelt "Saiku". And "Saiõ" (斎王) is always referred to as either "Saio" or "Saioh". Should I stick to the macrons or should I use the romanised form that is actually used in the region? The guidelines say "names should be romanized according to common usage". I originally didn't use macrons in the names, but they were changed by someone doing an edit. Would like to know what to follow in this case in the future. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ka-ru (talk • contribs) .

The purpose of a manual of style is to standardize the way of writing things. In any country, including Japan, people can write things in foreign symbols inconsistently from city to city, organization to organization, person to person. Wikipedia should make things consistent. We've decided to use the macron, not the "oh" or tilde or other form. So it's Wikipedia's style to change all these to vowels with macrons. The exception is words that are in authoritative print dictionaries such as the Oxford English Dictionary ("OED") or "Webster's Third New International Dictionary" published by Merriam-Webster ("M-W"). So, we write Tokyo, shogun, judo (to give a few examples) without macrons.

You'll find more information at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) and its talk page.

Thanks for asking! Fg2 21:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

As such then shouldn't Oita Prefecture now become Ōita Prefecture? And if that follows, then Hita, Oita should become Hita, Ōita and so on and so forth? Bobo12345 09:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The articles were created without macrons, and editors are gradually renaming them with macrons as they find the time and motivation. Oita is probably not as well known as Tokyo and Osaka are, so unless it meets the criteria in the Manual of Style, it would be correct to rename the articles Hita, Ōita and Ōita Prefecture. Fg2 10:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I've gone and moved the Oita Prefecture and Oita, Oita articles to Ōita Prefecture and Ōita, Ōita respectively, and also changed the in article references to the macronised versions. I've corrected the double redirects too. Before I go on and change all the town and village pages (eg. Hita, Oita to Hita, Ōita), could somebody take a look an see I've not made some huge mistake. It would be a lot of work to undo, so I'd rather be cautious! Cheers, Bobo12345 12:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. Thanks for the hard work! (P.S. Is 分 really pronounced "いた"? Interesting. LordAmeth 08:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I just spent the last couple of hours trawling through all the villages, towns, districts and cities of Ōita, changing Oita to Ōita and correcting the double redirects. Of course I found a few other names which had to be macronised too. God bless Ōno, Ōyama, Ōta and Bungo-ōno!! I've not corrected the in-article references yet - I think that would take me a week! Is there any kind of program or editor that would make these kinds of repetitive changes easier?? PS. Yes, 分 is pronounced "いた". Do you reckon 大分="big minute"? Hmmm Bobo12345 12:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Tagging talk pages and assessing articles

Hi. If you still have work to do tagging talk pages and assessing articles, my AWB plugin might be of interest to you.

The plugin has two main modes of operation:

• Tagging talk pages, great for high-speed tagging
• Assessments mode, for reviewing articles (pictured)

As of the current version, WikiProjects with simple "generic" templates are supported by the plugin without the need for any special programatic support by me. I've had a look at your project's template and you seem to qualify.

For more information see:

• About the plugin
• About support for "generic" WikiProject templates
• User guide
• About AWB (AutoWikiBrowser)

Hope that helps. If you have any questions or find any bugs please let me know on the plugin's talk page. --Kingboyk 13:51, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Translation vs. transliteration

I'm currently in a stalemate with a couple of editors (one of whom has made no other edits at all) about the use of transliteration.

The reason is that there is an album whose title I listed as kanji & kana -> transliteration -> translation, but because the official title is the kana/translation, the other editors refuse to admit that the translit of the kanji exists.

I feel all three should be listed, and as long as the kanji is there it should be transliterated. What do you guys think? Is there an "official" guideline on this? Please help me get this sorted one way or the other. MightyMoose22 ^{>Abort, Retry, Fail?_} 06:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I take it you are talking about the Shiina Ringo album (大人)アダルト? As far as I can tell, the correct interpretation of this would be "Adult," not "Otona" even though the kanji 大人 has been used. In Japanese writing, especially in manga, kanji are written to show the meaning, although the furigana is given in katakana. This happens with names, and expressions, but the furigana version would be the correct translation.

However, a quick search around the internet shows that both "Adult" and "Otona" are being used, so....anyone else?MightyAtom 06:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

That's the one. I'm not questioning the translation, or that it is the official title, but I don't think the kanji should just be ignored so easily, especially when we favour the kanji translit Tokyo Jihen over the "official translation" Tokyo Incidents, as is written on every one of their releases.

Anyway, I'm afriad you guys are going to have to sort this out amongst yourselves, because as of now I'm gone. I don't care enough any more. Good luck. MightyMoose22 ^{>Abort, Retry, Fail?_} 06:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, considering the album is listed as "大人(アダルト)" on their official site, the WP page has it listed correctly. It's very common to list the pronunciation in parentheses on the web in place of furigana. "Adult" is the correct transliteration since we generally use the English word for any katakana here on Wikipedia when listing titles. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 17:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Hiroshige

Hello everyone,

Today, I received the following comment on my user talk page. It refers to my removing "Andro" from the introduction to the article on Hiroshige.

---

Re: (revisionism diff)

"Andro" is a glaring occidental error, but the fact remains that it had an established presence in print for about a century, and you know it. Thus, Wikipedia's duty is to report on it and label it as erroneous, NOT to censor and delete it as you've repeatedly been doing.

Decent people looking up "Andro Hiroshige" after a book should be able to find this article. Your elitist revisionism would deny them access to this article on the ground that they bought a book using an erroneous romanization.

Filthy revisionists like you would delete "Peking" and "Mao Tse-Tung" from the encyclopedia if they had a chance. You disgusts me to no end.

62.147.86.12 20:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

---

The editor who left this note tells me that I know about the established presence of this name in print, but I confess I know less than he or she gives me credit for. Can anyone help Wikipedia by contributing a reference for this?

Fg2 07:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I have never heard of "Andro" being is use either. If they user can site a reference that uses that romanization, then it should be included otherwise, it should be left out. I left comments on the discussion page to that effect. MightyAtom 07:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted it for now. I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I find no evidence of the "Andro" spelling. Can anybody produce any proof that it's ever been spelled "Andro Hiroshige"? If there's no proof, the "Andro" spelling makes a mockery out of the WP:MOS-JA rules, and is also "unencyclopedic".--Endroit 07:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Gwern suggests this single book as proof:

• Hiroshige: One Hundred Famous Views of Edo, paperback, 1986. D. Smith II; Poster, G Amy; Lehman, L. Arnold. Publisher: George Braziller Inc, plates from the Brooklyn Museum. ISBN 0-87273-141-3

He also said "See Introduction of D. Smith II; 1986".

However, I'm not convinced that an error in a single book allows us to include it in the article. Perhaps if he found 3 books.... Please discuss.--Endroit 17:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Wrong ISBN apparently. I am having trouble finding the book with this ISBN number. Can somebody help validate the authenticity of this book?--Endroit 17:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I may have messed up the original reference; B&N gives the ISBN as 0807611433, but I think I may have bought a second edition of that book which isn't given on their site (and the Brooklyn Museum seems to have stopped selling it... good thing I bought a copy when I did!) -- Gwern (contribs) 18:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it is most surely an error; as I'm sure you're all well aware. Must've been a typo for Andō. I don't think we need a redirect, and there surely does not need to be anything on the article space. If someone is erroneously looking for "Andro Hiroshige", they will almost undoubtedly then try simply "Hiroshige", and they'll get there. LordAmeth 22:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Suikinkutsu

The article Suikinkutsu is up for GA re-review due to having no inline citations. Interested editors are encouraged to go help out the article so it doesn't lose its GA rating. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Barnsensu userbox

Just an FYI, I've created a userbox for those who have been awarded a Barnsensu award. It can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan/Barnsensu userbox. EVula 06:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Japan-related templates

I was looking for help on placing a template to an article (Hiroyuki Agawa needs a {{Nihongo| and check for a possible ja: article) I wrote, namely to have someone (able to write kanjis etc.) check the article, but there are currently none mentioned. Are there such templates (expert-Japan, wfy-Japan?) for Japan-related articles and could they be listed here (WP:JAPAN)? Best, feydey 09:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I updated the above article, and I agree that a template like what you mentioned would be useful. Neier 10:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)