Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Irish Republicanism/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Failte! Welcome! 2 Banner 3 INLA 4 Change of name and of focus 4.1 Consensus process 4.1.1 WikiProject Irish Republican Army 4.1.1.1 Support 4.1.2 WikiProject Irish Republicanism 4.1.2.1 Support 4.1.3 WikiProject Irish Nationalism 4.1.3.1 Support 5 Collaboration 6 Template :IRAs 7 MfD Explanation 8 Volunteer (Irish republican) 9 Campaign - Other 10 Martin McCaughey and Fergal O'Hanlon 11 Irish language activists 12 Emily Brogan 13 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Óglaigh na hÉireann (CIRA splinter group) 14 Establishing Notability for IRA Volunteers. 14.1 Criteria 15 Sandbox? 16 Republicanism template 17 1980 in the Irish Republican Army 18 Template:IR-stub 19 Georgina Etheridge 20 No referencing/footnote on nearly all Irish republicanism history articles. 21 Tasks/Grading/etc 22 Bobby Sands 23 Peaceful Irish republicans 24 Restructuring Project Page 25 Expanding Template:IRAs 26 Template:IrishR & Template:IR topics 27 More eyes needed 28 Flute Bands 29 Prison Ships 30 Irish Socialist Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War 31 Tasks 32 List of members of the Irish Republican Army 33 Article assessment 34 James Mac Guill 35 Generic welcome message 36 Easter Rising template 37 Moving the Proclamation 38 Use of "People imprisoned for terrorism" category 39 One Night In Hackney 40 Tom Clarke and Seán MacDermott 41 List of members of the Irish Republican Army 42 Poll on Flag options in Northern Ireland infobox 43 Categorising prisoners from The Troubles 44 Republican Movement (Ireland) 45 WP:IRA 46 Irish hunger strike featured article candidate 47 John Kelly expanded 48 Active Service Unit 49 Dr. Padraig Quinn 50 Spam, or valuable resource? 51 Politics of Northern Ireland WikiProject 52 Question concerning nationality 53 Easter Rising 54 Template transclusion problem 55 Category:People of the Irish War of Independence 56 Heavy gang 57 Sinn Féin politician categories 58 Omagh bombing 59 Irish version of personal names 60 Fenians

Failte! Welcome!

Alright, everyone. I asked for it, and recieved enough support that I believe this project is worth it. Come out ye Fennians all! Let us do or die! Image:Erin Go Bragh flag.jpgErin Go Bragh 08:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought this group was about writing articles on the IRA, not supporting it. Logoistic 00:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Your thoughts were correct. I use quite a bit of fanciful language like that, out of habit. I do refrain from it in articles, though. Image:Erin Go Bragh flag.jpgErin Go Bragh 03:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

By which, I mean of course, adding ourselves to the Participants list, and start collaborating! Image:Erin Go Bragh flag.jpgErin Go Bragh 03:09, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Banner

As you can see, I've been bold and used Image:Erin Go Bragh flag.jpg for out Banner. I love the flag, and would propose it as sort of an official image for out WikiProject. Image:Erin Go Bragh flag.jpgErin Go Bragh 09:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Might I suggest an alternative image, namely  ? This flag symbolises Irish republicanism and is an "official" flag, as opposed to the current flag, which feels something like a caricature. gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 23:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the symbol we already have symbolises Irish republicanism and nationalism more than the one suggested by Galway.--Vintagekits 23:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the President's personal standard really represents Irish republicanism. I just plain like the one we're using; it's got lots of symbolism in it, and it has my name! ; ) Image:Erin Go Bragh flag.jpgErin Go Bragh 02:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure how your name is relevant to the discussion. While we're on the topic however, it might be of interest for you to know that Swift's parents were English-born and he had actually spoken out against the idea of a united Ireland. That is to say, he was most certainly not a nationalist. Back to the subject at hand however, the flag is most definitely a symbol of republicanism. If you prefer, the Leinster flag would work just as well (it looks a bit like your favoured flag). In as far as having "Erin Go Bragh" included on the banner, I'd have to be opposed to that, as the phrase itself is not used in Ireland and is a caricature created by Irish-Americans. gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 03:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

My name fits into the discussion as a bit of light-heartedness, trying to keep goodwill among us through the use of humour. Aside from that, and Swift (who's name I've always admired, both from how it rolls off, and because of the man's literature, and willingness to point out absurdities in the society around him, regardless of how he acted/his politics), and Swift's English parents, my impression of the phrase is that it's used by Irish Nationalists in many places, regardless of where they live. I do recall the tale of several Irish regiments in the U.S. Civil War who fought and died under the banner of Erin Go Bragh, because their families were starving in Ireland and they had to come over to America. The same tale goes on to mention quite a bit of a plan thought out by one of the U.S. generals, who decided he was going to raise a Fenian Army from the American Irish, and go and liberate his homeland. Unfortunately, not many people supported his idea. But, I digress.

You mentioned on my talk page that you'd not label yourself an active participant, but your opinion is still, of course, just as valid. I really like the sybolism contained in the Erin Go Bragh flag. It is distinctly representative of Irish Nationalism. The Leinster flag is representative of Leinster, as well as Ireland as a whole sometimes, while the Presidential standard is representative of the Irish government. Since we're focusing on a non-governmental movement, that's been outlawed by said government, I think it illogical to use the latter, while for the former, the Erin Go Bragh flag simply has more to it. Again, just my thoughts. Erin Go Bragh^talk 08:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the Erin Go Bragh flag, Leinster flag or any of these:

• - - - Image:CIAFLAG2.jpg -

Would be good choices. I don't agree with the presidential flag though, largely as the presidents of the republic haven't ever really been republican. -- Pauric (talk-contributions) 18:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The fragmented flag from the first republic was actually the other one I considered when making the banner. I would've put it all up to a vote/consent/discussion in the first place, but everyone who mentioned an interest in the thing to me said that they'd like to take part if such a Projet were set up, so I went ahead and did what I thought was involved in doing such a thing. Getting things moving and all that! If the flag's really a big problem, I don't care as much about that as actually forming a group of editors interested in writing about the IRA and Irish nationalism. Erin Go Bragh^talk 00:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't really mind which flag we use, put my personal preference would be the flag of the 1st republic. Derry Boi 19:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

As the scope of the project remains that of the IRA, I have gone ahead and changed the banner image to reflect the IRA a bit more. Using the Leinster flag with an Irish-American phrase is not only a misuse of the Leinster flag and what the province stands for, but also the image itself did not at all reflect the IRA, especially given the "Erin go Bragh" business. gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 22:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Dont like it - I propose this - - thoughts?--Vintagekits 22:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Please see WP:IDONTLIKEIT gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 22:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I like the poster and its not a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, I just think the would be more apt and represents what this project is about a lot more. Sligeach abú!!!--Vintagekits 22:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

the Erin go Bragh flag is differnt from the flag of Leinster read this [1] and the IRA picture is more assocaited with the modern IRA --Barry talk 22:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The flag over the GPO was the culmination of the hundreds of years of resistance and republicanism since then see's itself by and large as a jumping off point from that day. Thats the only reason I suggest the GPO flag, its kinds of a point that draws everything together. However, I am happy for Galways poster to remain until the name of this project is changed from IRA to Irish republicanism--Vintagekits 22:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

As mentioned to Vintagekits on our respective talk pages, I'd be happy with the 1916 flag if/when the scope of the project expands a bit to include the broader ideal of republicanism. gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 23:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

mibees ya shud make yer mark her den!--Vintagekits 23:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah, thanks! I wasn't sure if it would have been redundant, as I made the original suggestion. There it is though. Cheers gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 23:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• Moved this up from a discussion from below -

Hello everyone. I have some concerns about the banner. Would'nt the flag of the first republic, however battered, be much more approprite? The words Eirn go Bragh on it comes across as a dated Americanism. It was a phrase used on flags carried by Irish regiments in the service of the USA (and sometimes the CSA) during their civil war. And as such, had noting to do with the Irish republican movement beyond that its bearers were Irish. Also the first republic flag actually has the approprite words on it.

Also: the banner is not only the arms of Leinster, it is the coat of arms of the head of the MacMurrogh-Kavanagh clan. As such it is personal property and cannot be used in the present context. Fergananim 14:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The Erin go Bragh thing gives me bad flashbacks to Boston St. Patrick's Day violence and the awful dying of the Chicago River (*cringe*). I support changing the banner. Also, it's looking like consensus is leaning clearly towards changing the name. Given this, I would also prefer the 1916 flag. I think it's inclusive and won't set people off the way some of the other options obviously do. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• Right I am going to be bold then and drop the axe!--Vintagekits 00:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
• I've amended the userbox, though I think it still needs to be renamed or moved, and I forget what has to happen with the category. I'll look into it a bit later if no one else gets to it first. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi all, Ive just created 2 pages, one on Seamus Clarke and one on Marion Coyle. I am only new to this site so if you have any ways of improving these articles or advice it would be much appreciated Cheers.--MarkyMarkDCU 19:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

INLA

Do groups such as the Irpies, or the political groups fall under this scope? -- Pauric (talk-contributions) 21:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd say yes to the INLA. They're an armed republican group in Ireland. As for political groups, like the "political wings" of the various IRAs, I'm not sure. I'd venture to say "Yes, why not?", but it does take some consideration, I guess. Image:Erin Go Bragh flag.jpgErin Go Bragh 02:57, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Change of name and of focus

Irish Political History series

Republicanism

Republicanism

– in Ireland – in Northern Ireland Irish republican legitimatism Physical force republicanism See also List of IRAs for organisations claiming that name.

Key documents

Proclamation of the Republic Declaration of Independence Message to Free Nations Democratic Programme Dáil Constitution Anglo-Irish Treaty External Relations Act 1936 Constitution of Ireland Republic of Ireland Act 1948 The Green Book New Ireland Forum Report Anglo-Irish Agreement Belfast Agreement Articles 2 & 3

Parties & Organisations

Aontacht Éireann Clan na Gael Clann na Poblachta Communist Party of Ireland Cumann na mBan Cumann na Poblachta Cumann Poblachta nahÉ Córas na Poblachta éirígí Fianna Éireann Fianna Fáil · Ind FF Irish Citizen Army Irish National Invincibles INLA Irish Republican Army Anti-Treaty IRA Continuity IRA Official IRA Provisional IRA Real IRA IRB · ISRP · IRSP Official Sinn Féin Red Republican Party Republican Congress Republican Sinn Féin Saor Éire Sinn Féin United Irishmen Workers Party Young Ireland 32CSM See also: Party youth wings

Publications

An Phoblacht · Daily Ireland Irish Press · Sunday Press Republican News · Saoirse The Nation· United Irishman Wolfe Tone Weekly

Strategies

Abstentionism Éire Nua Armed Struggle Armalite and Ballot Box TUAS

Symbols

The Tricolour · Easter Lily

Other movements

Loyalism {{IrishL}} Monarchism {{IrishM}} Nationalism {{IrishN}} Unionism {{IrishU}}

v • d • e

Hi there! I'd love to collaborate with some of you on writing articles pertaining to Irish nationalism. However, to avoid some potential conflict down the road, might I humbly suggest changing the name of the WikiProject to WikiProject Irish Nationalism, WikiProject Irish Republicanism, or a similar derivitave. The IRA, while an important and necessary part of Irish nationalism, does not encapsulate the entire ideal, and might appear contentious, especially given the recent steps towards peace. A less contentious name might attract more users to participate, as well! Just a thought. Sláinte! gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 22:01, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest that this project change to being Wikiproject Irish Republicanism, and make sure that all people with an interest in the subject take part. There's a danger with projects like these that they become perceived as an organisation to put forward an Irish Republican point of view; because of neutral point of view that often results in someone stepping up to close the whole thing down. Sam Blacketer 23:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Probably a good idea, just IRA to limiting imo.--Vintagekits 23:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I started the project to collaborate on articles directly related to the IRA. While I'd love to see collaboration on other aspects or Irish nationalism and republicanism, I must stress that the initial objective of the project was to collaborate on articles related to the Irish Republican Army. As I mentioned when Gaillimh brought up the same thing on my own talk page:

The lines I added to the page about including broader topics such as Irish Nationalism and Irish Republicanism were much more of an afterthought. I'd love to see people working on other aspects of Irish Nationalism, but I'd really like to use this WikiProject to focus on the IRA. If the project does widen a bit, I don't quite see why the name would have to change. I wouldn't say no outright, but I really feel like WP:IRA is an excellent title! It's short, catchy, easy to remember, and it's got such a nice shortcut!

I don't quite understand the motivation for a change in name. Does it really matter that much? If some of us feel like we want to use this space to collaborate on other aspects of Irish nationalism & Irish republicanism, does that really require us to change the name of our project? Erin Go Bragh 03:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think it does require that. With a name like this it looks like we're just a bunch of fenians writing propoganda about a pile o' terrorists. Whereas if it's nationalism/republicanism it still allows us to write indepth about about all the same topics, but not looking so concenrated and biased towards the RA. -- Pauric (talk-contributions) 18:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I still don't understand how devotion to an ideal seems less bias/crazy than to a group of organizations, but I'll stop blocking consensus here. It seems everyone else is in favor of changing the name, and so be it. Let us put it to consensus, for the record. Erin Go Bragh^talk 00:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Consensus process

WikiProject Irish Republican Army

Support

1. Of course this is what I'd prefer. But if it comes to it, I won't block consensus. I'd prefer Republicanism over Nationalism. Erin Go Bragh^talk 00:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
2. I would cautiously support this original name in what could be a minefield of pro and anti POV. Is this project going to focus on 1798, 1916 (and the intervening time), Civil war, Emergency and the Early PIRA and the "troubles"? Or, is it going to be concentrating on the more recent Organised crime disguised as Political activism aspect? Wholeheartedly support the first but not the last. Brendandh 19:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Irish Republicanism

Support

1. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 06:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC) - From the discussion above, and the discussion on the MfD page, I'd say this option is the one most likely to gain consensus acceptance. While I am fine with the project having "IRA" in the title, I can understand the concerns that have been raised. I would be happy with this name as an alternative.

   Comment/Updating - If we are now expanding the scope of the project: [2] We do need to broaden the name. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

2. --Vintagekits 10:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC), I also am fine with all, however, this title gives it a more inclusive and wide scope to bring in related articles.
3. -- Pauric (talk-contributions) 18:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC) Agree with vintagekits and Kathryn, already voiced my opinions on this above on page.
4. -- One Night In Hackney 06:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC) Will probably cause less problems in the long run, and also allows us to claim more articles under our scope.
5. -- Fergananim 14:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC) Something of this size and scope with IRA in the title is both limiting (which is why I did'nt sign up) and would cause long-term trouble. While I understand Eire's points, it must be understood that such words, images and symbols will have very different and immediate effect on those of us here in Ireland. Which is why I welcome his consensual approach. By the way, the banner is actally the flag of Lenister and the coat of arms of the head of the Clan MacMurrough-Kavanagh, and as such the above use is a violation of civic and personal property.
6. -- gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 23:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Irish Nationalism

Support

Collaboration

So, assuming that some more of these expected people are coming into this Project, how about that Collaboration? WikiProject Ireland has a collaboration article for every week/month something like that. It seems like a good idea to me! If anyone else is interested, I'd like to start a similar collaborative effort for this WikiProject. I've nominated Michael Collins for collaboration on our Project Page, whatever that may mean. Erin Go Bragh^talk 09:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Template :IRAs

I've been trying to get some input over at Template talk:IRAs, as to whether the template should be inclusive of groups such as the new ONH and the INLA, who, like CIRA and RIRA (already listed on the template), are "splinter" groups descended from other IRA organizations, and are armed Irish republican groups with quite similar goals, if they do disagree on the means to the end. Anyway, I finally got one response, and I'd appreciate it some others would give their input; two people can argue forever without coming to a conclusion, you know. Erin Go Bragh^talk 00:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

MfD Explanation

Hi again, fellows! After some initial discussion and further thought, I feel as though a WikiProject about such a contentious subject as the IRA does not conform to WP:NPOV. Please feel free to weigh in here. Thanks gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 03:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. David Lauder 18:52, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm into the history but it's too easy for POV disputes to flare up. You spend all day adding a paragraph with refs and then someone removes it or the whole page is locked. If Erin go Bragh wants a web page on this subject, it doesn't necessarily belong on wikipedia; hope to be proved wrong there anyways. Many of these groups in 2007 are tiny and family-based and unpopular. Would you list all the militia groups in the USA or yardie groups in Jamaica on wikipedia?86.42.202.31 19:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Volunteer (Irish republican)

There's quite a bit of an argument going on over at Talk:Volunteer (Irish republican), and I can't really make heads or tails of it. But it sure could use some attention. Erin Go Bragh^talk 10:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Campaign - Other

Added 2 articles I wrote on the Northern Campaign 1942-45 & IRA Nazi links 1938-44 [3]. There are also around 15+? articles detailing Abwehr spy missions to Ireland that had involvement with anti-treaty IRA or figures to a greater or lesser extent. There are also a few articles on the activities of notable IRA figures in Nazi Germany or those with linkage to IRA. Again, written from scratch just like the 2 articles already appearing in the list- on the Green Book & the S-Plan. Nobody claiming expertise on the organisation or period (1 self announced expert from Galway) had done any work on them but thats self appointed experts for you :) Might join the group to complete some more articles on IRA Nazi links, and activity of Nazi spy in Ireland. Fluffy999 13:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Martin McCaughey and Fergal O'Hanlon

Perhaps members of the project could have a look at these two articles, which I have tagged for notability, and if they agree, then nominate the articles for AfD. There obviously cannot be notability claimed for someone just because they were killed, unless mainstream sources validate notability. Tyrenius 05:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Imagine trying to delete these articles? Well there are the usual anti-republican campaigners that would like to. Please feel free to add to the article and improved it as there is a lot of information out there that could be added.--Vintagekits 19:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Fergal was working with Seán South, who's relatively famous in Irish Rebel music (The Wolfe Tones wrote a song about him, called "Sean South of Garryowen). There's a standing marble monument to the both of them. So I guess that could make him notable by association? As for McCaughey, Vintagekits listed a number of things at the AfD that make him seem notable enough to me. Erin Go Bragh^talk 08:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, looking at the Sean South article, it seems that Dominic Behan wrote a song, The Patriot Game, about Fergal as well. So that's a song about him, another about his leader, and a monument to the both of them. Erin Go Bragh^talk 08:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Irish language activists

Hi, a lot of people concerned with Irish republicans were/are Irish lanugage activists. If you know that a particular person is, then be sure to add the category Category:Irish-language activists to their article. Thanks. Derry Boi 20:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Emily Brogan

Hello, I though the project might be interested to know the article of a Provisional IRA member, Emily Brogan, has been tagged as non-notible and might be deleted in the near future. MadMax 21:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

That one's a real tuffy. I think maybe we should get together and talk about what makes an IRA member notable. Because there're thousands to write about, but we obviously can't do that. Erin Go Bragh^talk 08:12, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a solution would be to create a "Notable members..." page, linking to those who merit substantial articles of their own, or having brief details for those who don't? That would be a way of "saving" pages like that of Emily Brogan, which otherwise stand to be lost altogether. Nick Cooper 13:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 22:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I've recently created a List of members of the Irish Republican Army if thet's any help. Although it's still largly incomplete, it might serve useful as a wanted list for the project. MadMax 06:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

MadMax, well done, that was a great idea.--Vintagekits 10:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Óglaigh na hÉireann (CIRA splinter group)

Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Óglaigh na hÉireann (CIRA splinter group). Óglaigh na hÉireann (CIRA splinter group) has been nominated for deletion. User:Astrotrain seems to be blind, ignoring that all statements in the article are sourced from the IMC. Please go make and your voice heard. Erin Go Bragh^talk 23:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Advocacy of this kind and attacking other editors who disagree with your point of view is the quickest way to ensure the demise of your project, which must make sure to promote neutrality and wiki policies scrupulously at all times. I suggest an apology and a withdrawal of your remark. Tyrenius 01:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought I was just stating fact. Sources are in the article. Astrotrain said the article was unsourced. I assume he missed them. I did phrase it in a negative way, but it was a statement of fact. I must ask the question, however: How is my asking people to speak their mind on an open forum advocacy? Erin Go Bragh^talk 08:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Because you have already stated a negative view of the nom, so the implication is that you are urging others to follow suit. I have created a sub page for AfD which simply allows them to be listed with a space for the result. This will be a useful record for assessing how the community responds to such subjects, so that future articles can be created (or not) with that in mind. It is a page that can be watch listed by all interested in the subject. Link is: Wikipedia:WikiProject Irish Republican Army/AfD It can also be stated on the AfD page that it has been listed on the sub page, with a link. Tyrenius 18:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Establishing Notability for IRA Volunteers.

Several IRA volunteer articles have been nominated for deletion as of late. This is going to continue to happen. Obviously, not all IRA volunteers are notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. However, there've got to be many that are (the Chiefs of Staff, for example). I think we should establish some kind of criteria for IRA volunteers. Erin Go Bragh^talk 08:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Criteria

• Are there any existing Wikipedia notability criteria which apply here?

From WP:BIO - Persons achieving renown or notoriety for playing a major role in a event receiving major news and media coverage (e.g., orchestrating and engaging a famous crime spree or a widely known heroic event) sounds reasonable enough to me? One Night In Hackney 10:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Sandbox?

Rather than have the current problem of unsourced stubs being sent to Afd by the usual suspects shortly after creation, would we be better off creating them here in a sandbox? Then when the articles are sourced and referenced move them to mainspace. Any attempt to send a sourced article which meets notability guidelines to Afd would then be instantly recognised as a bad faith nomination, instead of us having to fight to improve the article while Afd is ongoing. I'd generally expect an article to be in the sandbox for around a couple of days maximum, as I'm not talking about getting the articles up to featured article standard or anything. Thoughts? One Night In Hackney 07:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Good idea! ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 22:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I really like this idea. I could create it right now! Erin Go Bragh^talk 23:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Republicanism template

I placed the template up by the Project name discussion, as I thought it might be useful, but please remove it if it's not. This is the code for it:

{{IrishR}}

Tyrenius 03:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

1980 in the Irish Republican Army

Also see 1981, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1987 and 1988. 1980 is particularly bad, as most of the small amount of information doesn't even concern the IRA.

Does anyone think these article are worth salvaging and improving? If the answer to that question is yes, are we going to create articles for the many years we don't have at present? One Night In Hackney 22:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if we should document every single little attack the IRAs ever took part in, and categorize them personally. -- Pauric (talk-contributions) 23:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Me neither, especially as we have this article - Chronology of Provisional IRA actions. So unless there's any objections I'll prod the other articles? One Night In Hackney 12:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

What he said! Chronology of Provisional IRA actions is surely enough.--Vintagekits 12:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

This timeline was originally created to transfer the IRA-related events from the deleted Timeline of terrorism, one of the more specific related timelines I'd been transfering events to (ex. List of skyjackings, List of bombings, etc.). Unfortunatly, as I've been busy assisting the WikiProject Crime and WikiProject British crime (as well as being in the middle of a college semester), I've had little time to work on any other projects.

The timeline itself was idealy for listing activities of all Irish nationalist movements possibly as far back as the United Irishmen, Young Ireland movement and similar organizations. While I am aware of more specific timelines, I felt this would cover a more broader range on organizations which would either have a significantly smaller entry using existing formats or an unmanigable amount. I also realize the title itself is misleading, however I certainly welcome any suggestions for alternate names. The "final" changes would hopefully look something along the lines of, for example, 1880 in organized crime or 2006 in organized crime. MadMax 21:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I've no objections to the articles, they did seem slightly redundant as they stood though, especially with the large number of missing years. You'll need to de-prod them, including the timeline page. One Night In Hackney 21:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Template:IR-stub

Template:IR-stub is broken. It should have a Category:Irish Republicanism stubs to go with it. As I understand it, and it all seems rather bureaucratic and unwiki, new stubs should be proposed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals where the great and the good of WP:WPSS will consider your humble petition. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Georgina Etheridge

Can I bring this article to the project's attention. If she is notable and it can be verified then please do so, if she isn't or can't then the article should be nominated for deletion.--Jackyd101 00:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I've done some research and can't find much/anything, I've prodded it myself. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

One also added to Emily Brogan‎ for the same reason.--Vintagekits 22:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Just a quick note for any concerned parties, both those articles were created by Whatkindofthing and pre-date this project, please don't blame us for them! One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

No referencing/footnote on nearly all Irish republicanism history articles.

There is a real problem with most of the articles based on Irish republicanism history, in that they don't include references/footnotes throughout the articles. I realise that there are sources that are mentioned at the bottom of each article, but they should be referenced in the article at the appropriate places. I have noticed this for a while now, but wasn't sure where to mention it - but here seems as good a place as any.--Macca7174 22:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you point out any specific articles please, so I know where to make a start? Thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:13, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Macca, have you got an example of what you want it to look like and an current example of what articles should/could be improved. Always keen to learn. regards--Vintagekits 22:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

If you take a look at Colombia Three you'll get a decent idea. When I first saw the article it looked like this, it had one source that was a reference for the entire article, and it didn't even reference a lot of information in the article either. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 17:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

This might come in useful for newer Project members: for a simple guide to using references, place {{subst:refstart}} (including brackets) on your user or talk page. Tyrenius 03:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello all, I think Macca, is quite right about the referencing on the Irish History articles it is deplorable. While general users may not be familiar with revisionist writing, I certainly am. I would be more than willing to lend a hand if that is ok. The period of history I am most familiar with is from the Act of Union to founding of the Fenian’s by the remnants of the Young Irelanders. If you need help with referencing, the books on the Young Ireland page that I supplied are my own. I have a large selection of Republican history also. Take care, Regards --Domer48 20:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Tasks/Grading/etc

Firstly I've created a tasks template, which is transcluded on the main project page here. I mostly put some articles in there from the project page, I'll work out which ones really need to go in there later. If anyone else wants to edit the tasks you need to edit {{Irish Republicanism tasks}}, or if you click on the edit button in the tasks box some instructions are there as well.

Secondly I've added the grading system to the {{WP:IR}} template, and creating all the necessary categories to go with it. I still need to create the pages on the Version 1.0 Editorial Team section, and try and assess the articles as best I can in terms of quality and importance. Any help would be welcome with this naturally. All the relevant categories are listed below:

Category:Irish Republicanism articles by importance

Category:Irish Republicanism articles by quality

Category:Irish Republicanism articles with comments

Category:Unassessed-Class Irish Republicanism-related articles

Category:Stub-Class Irish Republicanism-related articles

Category:Start-Class Irish Republicanism-related articles

Category:B-Class Irish Republicanism-related articles

Category:GA-Class Irish Republicanism-related articles

Category:FA-Class Irish Republicanism-related articles

Category:Unknown-importance Irish Republicanism-related articles

Category:Low-importance Irish Republicanism-related articles

Category:Mid-importance Irish Republicanism-related articles

Category:High-importance Irish Republicanism-related articles

Category:Top-importance Irish Republicanism-related articles

Please note you don't add these categories to articles or the talk pages, you edit the {{WP:IR}} template on the talk page to include the information. Any questions just ask, thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 09:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Bobby Sands

I have started a discussion over the use of a contentious flag in his article, it is located here. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Peaceful Irish republicans

There are many more of us peaceful than violent republicans here in Ireland, and always have been. The impression I get here is a focus on violent republicans? Balance, please.Red Hurley 18:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Six edits in to your wiki career! interesting, very interesting - if you want to write an article on "non violent republicans" - then go ahead, I am sure I could lend a hand. regards--Vintagekits 11:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Restructuring Project Page

So our project page could do with some restructuring, I think. Originally, I just sort of filled out the base project page with what I thought was what should be there, but the thing as a whole isn't nearly as useful as it should be, looking at some of the other project pages. Our "Open Tasks" section is a glaring exaple of this. Erin Go Bragh^talk 08:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• What information should be readily availabe on the WikiProject Page?

• List of participants
• List of applicable categories of articles
• Everything currently in the "Articles" section
• Keep adding things to this list...

I only put some (mostly) random articles in the Open Tasks box to make sure it worked properly, I was kind of hoping some people might add/change some but project activity has been lacking recently.... One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 10:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry Hackney, I didn't mean to comment on your doing! It's great that you've taken that initiative! I was more talking about the section as a whole. What constitutes an open task, etc.? Erin Go Bragh^talk 19:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

No problem. I'm not entirely sure myself, but I've got some ideas. Basically it's easy enough to see the importance or class of an article now the categories are set up, well once I've finished classifying all the articles anyway! I was basically thinking of picking some articles of high/top priority and/or stub/start class which can be improved. Basically there's not much point including stubs of recently elected MLAs where there's not much source material available at present, a task should be an article which can be significantly improved. It would probably be better if we picked articles covering a broad spectrum of Republicanism, for example I tend to edit the more modern end of things as that's what I've got plenty of books on and there's generally some information available online, whereas anything from say early-mid 1900s I don't have that much information on and online information is scarce at best. But other people have different interests and areas of expertise, so we're probably better off including some tasks for everyone? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 20:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Expanding Template:IRAs

I've created an expanded template, that's more up to date with Template customs (uses the standard navbox template) an is a more complete navigational box for Armed Irish Republican groups. It can be found for now at {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Irish Republican Army/Preparation/Template:IRAs}}. I'd like to replace the current {{Template:IRAs}} with it, or with a template with similar comprehensiveness. Please see Template talk:IRAs and voice your opinions. Erin Go Bragh^talk 09:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Template:IrishR & Template:IR topics

The IrishR template has become somewhat bloated. I've started work on {{IR topics}} to potentially replace it. The "Topics on..." style of template has several advantages, one being that it doesn't conflict with an infobox, that it sits at the bottom of the page with all the other navigational templates, and especially in this case, that it is a lot more organized. Please join me in discussing the matter at Template talk:IrishR. Erin Go Bragh^talk 02:33, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

More eyes needed

Assuming people aren't too busy for Easter, more input here would be helpful. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 17:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Flute Bands

Didnt see any articles on these, so got the ball rolling Éire Nua Republican Flute Band. Listed as start class. Fluffy999 19:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Not a big fan of flute bands myself and also I am not sure many of them are notable either. Eire Nua Abu!! p.s. good luck with it however--Vintagekits 19:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh they're all pretty notable, or at least i'd like to see someone claim they weren't. Vol. Sean Mcilevenná Republican Flute Band is another of the most famous ones. Fluffy999 11:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you are going to have to show references to them in the press or by other WP:RS. --Vintagekits 12:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I will leave word on sources noting each band on each talkpage. This leaves a record of how they pass WP:N. I'm not big into bands but their role in Republicanism was explained to me in detail recently and its not a role appearing on wikia so far. Fluffy999 19:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd be very interested to read your findings - good luck with it!--Vintagekits 19:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Oops a unionist editor nominated them both for deletion while I was involved with reality. Funny how it was almost predicted lol. He claimed that he was going to write a "flute bands" article, ive little faith that will happen so will look into that myself. Unfortunately, the flawed model of wikipedia, a system "gamed" so easily, makes it less and less pleasant to edit. Fluffy999 18:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

To be fair you were contacted (albeit you were busy) and the references in the articles were poor.--Vintagekits 15:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to get them both resurrected, can you advise on how to do this? Im not happy to see two articles on two famous bands railroaded by someone with an obvious axe to grind. If it really were a question of notability then fine, but that can be demonstrated via a google, and through pages of Anderstown News on the Easter Rising commemorations. See also [4] [5] Mural 2373 [6] [7] Fluffy999 20:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Prison Ships

• HMS Argenta - 1920s
• HMS Al Rawdah (1911) - 1940s
• HMS Maidstone (1937) - 1970s

Listed as start class Fluffy999 11:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

They don't really fall under the project's scope and I've removed the template accordingly. They were briefly used to house prisoners of war, but that's the limit of their importance in relation to the project. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 07:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I readded the template to each. Please give your rationale as to why Internment of generations of republicans falls outside the scope of the project. By the way, use of the term POW is inaccurate, where did you get that idea? Civil Authorities (Special Powers) Act 1922 didnt have a lot to do with POW's as its name might imply to those unfamiliar with it, nor did courts of summary jurisdiction.

These ships were used to imprison hundreds of republicans, combatants and non combatants as well as those unconnected to republicanism. Internment being a large part of republican lore not only in the early 1900s but past the last round in the 1970s. An inspiration to thousands of republicans, illustrating exactly what they were fighting against. No detail on Civil Authorities (Special Powers) Act 1922 either, nor an article on internment of Irish republicans through the decades. Fluffy999 22:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps because I understand why project templates should be added? They should be added to articles that the project can improve. The only tangential relationship to Irish republicanism is that prisoners were held on them, which is about as much as can be said. As for you classing them top priority, I rest my case..... One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Did you state a case for removing the articles from the project? I missed it. I did see an ill thought out objection and unfamiliarity with key concepts/Republican history however.

Speaking about early land based sites McGuffin states: "The camps became hotbeds of 'sedition', political education centres and training grounds for resistance fighters, the foremost of all being Michael Collins. In each of the camps, prisoners elected their own commandants (a practice always followed in the future) and established a chain of command with group and hut leaders."[8] And examples of the same from the 1940s, and later can also be produced to testify to why the sites are important in Republicanism. Setting their function as training and centers of learning and indoctrination aside; i'd like to know whether, in your view, the internment of Republicans is with the scope of the Republican project? If it is, it follows that the sites where internment took place are also part of the project.

Irish Republicans are schooled in the significance of internment and the sites where it happened. Articles on the sites are going to be able to contain a lot more detail than "this site held detainees". When did it hold detainees, how many, who staffed it, who died there, etc. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the subject matter. When you've done that you really will be better placed to offer comment on it. Fluffy999 00:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes I did thanks, obviously you didn't read it properly. I'm more than familiar with the subject matter. You're talking about general concepts, not what can be added to specific articles about each ship apart from unencyclopedic trivia. I'll be happy to keep removing the templates ad infinitum, good day to you. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 00:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I reverted your changes. Suggest you come up with something more substantial than "I know better than you". Unencyclopedic trivia? Facts some are ignorant of perhaps, that doesn't make it trivia. As sites where Republicans were interned, the articles belong in the project. You need to stop acting in a unilateral manner and discuss this sensibly. Fluffy999 00:13, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you mean like you did in the first place? When you've actually got an article that makes sense having the project template on, come back then. Until then, end of discussion. Oh, and if you put them as top importance again, the template will be removed without a second thought. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 00:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

lol I just create articles and edit them. Administrative stuff I leave to those most suited to the tasks involved, but I think that discussion can solve problems. However, this particular problem is not being discussed as you implied. To try and defuse anger at the addition of articles about internment sites to the project ive asked others to comment/advise on what can be done. If the "top" status is whats really objectionable to you then go ahead and set a level that isn't. I took no notice of the setting on the panel since the assessment process is not an activity I involve myself in. Fluffy999 00:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion can solve problems, but your attitude isn't helpful. Internment is an important concept with regards to Irish republicanism, however the venues at which it was carried out aren't necessarily so. You can canvas other editors as much as you want, it won't make those articles important to this project unless you can demonstrate that they can be as requested above. I spent quite a while removing articles that weren't really within the project's scope for improvement, as improvement is what the template are put on the articles for. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 08:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Disregarding the claim that i'm avoiding discussion lol, i've three questions:

• What is project scope with regard to internment?
• Can you identify internment sites which are in project scope?
• Can you identify the criteria used to exclude sites from project scope?

If you can address these questions with direct answers then working out your objection to inclusion of the ship sites which "aren't necessarily" in project scope can take place. By the way did you record the criteria you used to previously exclude articles from the project anywhere? I'd like to read them. Fluffy999 10:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Internment is within the project scope. However sites where internment happened aren't necessarily within the project scope. The site where internment occurred isn't necessarily important, just the fact that people were interned. Obviously the Maze is one obvious exception to this, but simply adding a lengthy history of the Irish republican aspect of the prison leaves the article unbalanced.

See here for a discussion regarding general project scope, in particular comments of of So basically, even if it can fall within a project, we should consider "does it help to put this under this project" and The tagging should be picking out the articles that the WikiProject can usefully spend time assessing and writing/improving. So bearing that in mind, spend a couple of hours looking at all the project articles and see how much work needs doing on them, and then consider whether it's a worthwhile use of proect time adding "When did it hold detainees, how many, who staffed it, who died there, etc" to articles about three ships that, to most casual readers about Irish republicanism, will be of little interest. There's nothing to stop you working on them or anyone else, but all I can see is very unbalanced articles being produced as in an ideal world you'd also need more information about what the ship was used for prior to being a prison ship.

For articles I excluded, see here. I got rid of many "The Troubles in..." articles because they were basically stubs copied and pasted from CAIN, and there's that many of them they are unmanageable especially for a new project.

As I said above, show me that those ships can be good articles, rather than (as they are at present) having a brief mention of Irish republicanism. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 10:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

"However sites where internment happened aren't necessarily within the project scope" then what is the criteria for including some and not others? What is your criteria for including some and excluding othes? Why is Long Kesh "obviously" going to be included but prison ships aren't? This is not about reading discussions on talkpages its a direct question to you asking what criteria you are basing your opposition on. Can you address that please? Fluffy999 10:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

If you read what I said above, it's quite clear why the ships were excluded. Also I think you'll find the Maze isn't a project article, and never has been to the best of my knowledge. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 11:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

lol your comments aren't clear on the subject at all. You are continuing to fail at articulating the criteria you have used to arrive at your judgments. What are they?

For the benefit of readers lets sum up my understanding of this project so far; there is a non transparent system of dictat locked up in one editors mind. This hidden system is apparently beyond interrogation/reproach and entirely unrecorded. This system decides what does and does not get included in the project. Does any of that sound opposed to the wikipedia model? Is that a robust system to operate a project by?

While I don't want to begin calling your qualifications for making such judgments into question, its going to save you a lot of future embarrassment if you can work out guidelines for gathering consensus prior to making your judgments. That way lapses in the judgment of a single editor aren't replicated in the project so easily. Fluffy999 11:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, let's see...I asked you to do the following:

1. Spend a couple of hours checking the current state of all the project articles. N Not done
2. Read the discussion on the project page I linked to. N Not done
3. Show me that the ships can be good articles. N Not done

So I suggest you stop trolling me because it really isn't going to accomplish anything, and come back and carry on this discussion when you've done all those things. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 11:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

lol im not trolling. I'm simply asking you how you arrive at your judgments and you are unable to articulate how. I'm happy to wait for comment from others on the project scope of internment- something else you neglect to articulate. I examined the talk you linked to but after reading it, noticed that it didn't explain the criteria you're using either. Where is your criteria recorded? I'm also more than familiar with the project since i've generated plenty of complete articles appearing in it. Great work on identifying some of them. But why did only some IRA concerned articles that I authored make the project? Oh thats right, they fulfilled your secret criteria.

The problem remains; even when others do comment, nobody except you knows what criteria (you claim) articles must meet to be included in the project. Nobody knows what you think makes an article "good" either- something else you have yet to articulate criteria for. A secret judgment call system.. Not good, and Not wikipedia. Now I will keep an eye open for comment. Fluffy999 12:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

You mistakenly assume I tagged all the articles, and that the list of articles is complete. In fact if you'd taken the time to read this whole page you'd have seen that I specificially stated there's plenty of articles that still need tagging.

Take a look at the participants on the main page. Take a look at how many are particularly active (or active at all) improving project articles. Consider whether adding more "low priority" articles that the project doesn't have time to improve in addition to the couple of hundred there are already makes any sense at all. Consider whether having only articles that the project has time to improve is a more worthwhile use of the project template. Is it better to have 1,000 articles tagged with the template, and nobody knows where to make a start? Or is it better to have 300 articles tagged with the template, and add more once those 300 are in an acceptable state? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Well I left it 7 days to see other comments. Not a lot of Republicans working this project? Suppose its up to me to get this matter looked into. Just don't trust the judgment behind the current process, its infallible, non-transparent, and by dictat. That is not the wikipedia way. Although it may explain why this project appears moribund.

The standard and project scope have yet to be set out. Thats the real problem here. The rest is just waffle from one person scrabbling around for any argument that fits the original flawed judgment call. One person with gaps in their knowledge should not have a stranglehold on a project. Important matters will appear trivial to them simply because they have no understanding of or background in the subject. Input from qualified editors really would settle this matter, hopefully as I finish off what im writing some will come forward. Fluffy999 14:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you should have used those seven days to improve the articles as I suggested, then this whole discussion would be moot? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Irish Socialist Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War

Added some detail on prominent IRA who were in the SCW, there is an article titled Ireland and the Spanish Civil War but its just a ripoff of detail I put in Frank Ryan (Irish republican) and should be deleted imo. If the blueshirts get their own article then I think this project can support an article on IRA and Unionist who went willing to fight under their command to Spain. Fluffy999 14:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Tasks

{{Irish Republicanism tasks}} is updated, and includes what needs doing. Anything else feel free to add naturally. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 04:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

List of members of the Irish Republican Army

Afternoon, folks. You may be interested in a recent discussion: Talk:List_of_members_of_the_Irish_Republican_Army#Redlinks_2. I proposed 3 suggestions there back on the 17th April, and as no alternatives were forthcoming, I implemented the second one today - redlinks were moved to a new page, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Irish_Republican_Army/Preparation/List members of PIRA 1969 to present, which is now up for speedy deletion. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 13:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and it's now been moved to a sub-page of your userspace. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Entirely out of process. List is currently here if anyone's interested. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 13:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Not out of process at all. A non-project member created a page in projectspace that isn't wanted by the project, so it was moved to that editor's userspace accordingly. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Article assessment

After what seems like an eternity, every article in Category:WikiProject Irish Republicanism articles is now rated by importance and quality. I'm not exactly an expert on either so if anyone disagrees feel free to change anything. I know there's some articles that don't have the project template added as well, so if you see any please make sure to add {{WP:IR}} to the talk page. Thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 20:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you got the rating wrong on over 50% of the articles!--Vintagekits 20:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't see you rating any articles ;) One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 20:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm busting yer chops cos it looked like such a ball ache of a job to do and I would rather argue with people!!!--Vintagekits 21:01, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Aye, you're not wrong. Up until earlier this evening we didn't even have a project template on the Easter Rising! One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 21:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

James Mac Guill

Does anyone know anything about this guy? I moved it into projectspace from mainspace to save it from imminent deletion, but I'm suspicious. I've yet to check any books I have, but I don't have many that cover the relevant time period at present anyway. The only source is a slightly dubious site, but I can't find any record of the guy on any other sites at all, unless I'm going completely mad of course.... One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:43, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Generic welcome message

Created here, just copy and paste it to the talk pages of any new members. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 10:12, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Also there's this for advertising. Just type {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Irish Republicanism/Template:WPIR}} on someone's talk page. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 20:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Easter Rising template

Thought {{Easter Rising}} would come in handy. If anyone wants to expand it so it's similar to {{1981 Hunger Strike}} I've got no objections. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 16:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

v • d • e Easter Rising Signatories of the Proclamation of the Republic (executed after the Rising) Patrick Pearse · Tom Clarke · Thomas MacDonagh · Joseph Mary Plunkett · Éamonn Ceannt · Seán Mac Diarmada · James Connolly Also executed for their role in the Rising Ned Daly · Willie Pearse · Michael O'Hanrahan · John MacBride · Michael Mallin · Con Colbert · Seán Heuston · Thomas Kent · Roger Casement Other Irish figures Éamon de Valera · Constance Markiewicz · The O'Rahilly · Eoin MacNeill · Eamon Bulfin · Cathal Brugha · Richard Mulcahy · Liam Mellows · Seán MacEntee · Tomás Mac Curtain · Thomas Ashe · Martin Savage · Francis Sheehy-Skeffington · Helena Moloney British figures John Maxwell · Lord Wimborne · Augustine Birrell · Matthew Nathan · Lord French

Moving the Proclamation

I am proposing to move Easter Proclamation to Proclamation of the Irish Republic. Apparently, Easter Proclamation is the name of a hymn. Anyway, I've always thought the name was wrong — Easter Rising, but Proclamation of the Republic. The discussion (if there is any) is here. Scolaire 08:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. Thank you for your comments. Scolaire 10:58, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Use of "People imprisoned for terrorism" category

Found this popping up on various Republican's biography pages. Strikes me as being a highly POV category which adds nothing to the article. Thoughts?GiollaUidir 23:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

They were, simple fact. Attempting to remove it won't do the project any favours, as all it will do is attract more POV warriors to all the articles, which have been by and large relatively stable recently. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

One Night In Hackney

One Night In Hackney has been deleted at his own request. This is a very sad loss as he was bringing a lot of articles on Irish Republicanism up to Good Article status. Scolaire 10:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Tom Clarke and Seán MacDermott

I am proposing to move Thomas Clarke (Irish republican) and Seán Mac Diarmada back to their original names of Tom Clarke (Irish republican) and Seán MacDermott, for reasons that I have set out in Talk:Thomas Clarke (Irish republican),Talk:Seán Mac Diarmada and Template talk:Easter Rising. Scolaire 15:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

List of members of the Irish Republican Army

This article seems incorrect to me, as the Officials are in the same section as all post-1922 members. This is not correct, it gives undue prominence to the Officials. After the GAC and Ard Fheis in September and October 1970 respectively, the Provisional Army Council ceased to be Provisional and became the legitimate Army Council of Óglaigh na hÉireann following the recognition by Tom Maguire. Official IRA members should be in a different section because of this. Brixton Busters 08:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Poll on Flag options in Northern Ireland infobox

There is a straw poll under way on having flag in the infobox of the Northern Ireland article.

There are four Options available choose either

• Yes / No / Don't care for each Option.--padraig 00:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I've voted, but it looks infested with socks! --Vintagekits 18:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Categorising prisoners from The Troubles

Further to the numerous discussions, largely on Wikipedia talk:Irish Wikipedians' notice board, a proposal has been made attempt to neutrally categorise individuals imprisoned during The Troubles. Your comments are welcomed at:

• Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion#Proposed solution to categorising those imprisoned during The Troubles
• Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 August 14#Category:People imprisoned for terrorism

Thanks. Rockpocket 00:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Republican Movement (Ireland)

Republican Movement (Ireland) is being considered for deletion for lack of content and sources. I have added some content and sources, and would be interested in people's opinion on whether it is now worth keeping. The discussion is here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Republican Movement (Ireland). Scolaire 22:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:IRA

I am removing (and nominating for deletion) the WP:IRA redirect to this page for a number of reasons:

• It is not an abbreviation of the wikiproject title.
• Having a wikiproject represented by the moniker for a paramilitary organisation is not conducive to harmonious editing. It has been used to promote an atmosphere of incivility and partisanship between conflicting groups of editors, that is entirely at odds with the spirit of the project. Moreover, it has political implications for the project that are counter to WP:NPOV
• WP:IR is perfectly sufficient.

Rockpocket 19:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

That came about when someone wanted to create an Wikipedia:WikiProject Irish Republican Army this was rejected and the links to that where reverted to this project. The WP:IRA shortcut should have been deleted but must have been missed.--padraig 20:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, padraig. I does look like a simple good faith oversight (see here) if you wish to comment. Rockpocket 20:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I seen that and voted to delete the redirected links, which should have been done in the first place.--padraig 20:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The archived talk pages seem to have disppeared, but as I recall there was some chortling among members about being able to use WP:IRA. Seems appropriate, seeing as the vast majority of the project's work seems to be about glorifying Provisional IRA members and attacks and removing anything that might show them in bad light. Rather than past republicanism and nationalism and current constitutional republicanism and nationalism. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 20:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is where the idea was first suggested [9].--padraig 20:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Irish hunger strike featured article candidate

While I'm (briefly!) back, 1981 Irish hunger strike is a current Featured Article Candidate, the discussion is at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1981 Irish hunger strike. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Now a featured article. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

John Kelly expanded

I've added to John_Kelly_(Sinn_Féin_politician), a bit surprised at how little you all had done. Just 12 lines was a bit slim on a volunteer of over 40 years, and a former founding leader of the Provos, involved in international negotiations, etc....? Rather a key man??Red Hurley 12:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Active Service Unit

There's an article for this now, so if you see anywhere it needs linking please do so. I've added a few myself, but there might be some more. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 08:47, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Dr. Padraig Quinn

Anyone got any more information on him to expand the article? It's likely he's covered more in offline sources, but it isn't really my area of expertise. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 06:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Spam, or valuable resource?

User:Rathingle has added a plethora of links to the same site, http://martindardis.com/, to various articles about Irish Music and related subjects. Normally, I would class these all as WP:LINKSPAM and delete them. However, they seem to be relevant, providing lyrics and chords that may not appear in the article. Can someone else look at these article and give a second opinion? Thanks.--SarekOfVulcan 18:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd say the best place for it is say a link in say Irish rebel music, not scattered across many articles. I was tempted to revert them all myself, but I'm caught in two minds like yourself. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Politics of Northern Ireland WikiProject

I have created a proposal for a WikiProject on the Politics of Northern Ireland. Please have a look and comment; if you are interested in participating, please add your name! Warofdreams talk 19:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Question concerning nationality

I was looking at the article Ruairí Ó Brádaigh, and would like to stimulate a general discussion regarding nationality, not specifically about this article.

The nationality is listed as [[Republic of Ireland| Irish]]. My understanding would be that a significant proportion of individuals that call themselves republican, would consider each of the two Irish states as illigitimate as each other, and therefore not consider either to provide nationality. I was wondering how should one go about determining nationality, and making the choice between [[Irish Republic |Irish]], [[Republic of Ireland |Irish]], [[Ireland |Irish]], or even [[Northern Ireland |Irish]]. Fasach Nua 14:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

We attribute one's nationality to the state, recognized by the rest of the world, of one's birth or citizenship. I presume he holds a passport from the Republic of Ireland and hence is Irish (for our purposes), whether he claims to recognize the state or not (and, something I've always wondered is, if he doesn't recognize it, why would he travel under its sovereignty?) I note that his place of birth is listed as Ireland (the island, rather than the state), though, which I imagine is some nod to his beliefs. This appears to be counter to what is preferred at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles). Rockpocket 01:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Presumtion is unworthy of an encyclopedia! However your passport point is taken as a rule of thumb. What would be the situation if someone held no travel documents, as I would imagine would not have been uncommon in the early 20th Century? Fasach Nua 20:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

My point is, with a lack of verifiable information stating that he revoked citizenship of the country of his birth, or actively gained that of another state, we presume that is his nationality. We generally don't require evidence of any documentation proving nationality unless it deviates from a verified place of birth. However, technically speaking he wasn't born in the ROI, but the Irish Free State (perhaps we should list that under birth country). But since the ROI followed the Free State without any geographical changes, its safe to assume that the citizens of one country became the citizens of that which followed it. Rockpocket 20:54, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

What you are talking about is eligibility, which can come from place of birth, parents, or other more proactive means. I would imagine (unencyclopedic) until recently almost everyone in the RoI had one grandparent who was a British citizen (born pre 1922), and the individual had the choice to take either British/Irish, or both. How would one quantify this choice? Fasach Nua 21:03, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, as far as I am aware, we typically assign the nationality of any individual to their state of birth, unless there is evidence that they elected to become a national of another state (of which they are eligible). In the case of Republicans this isn't even a major concern, because they state they would presumably choose (a united Ireland) doesn't actually exist in any legal sense, and therefore they couldn't become a legal citizen of that (hypothetical) state. Rockpocket 21:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

When it comes to "Nationality" it's generally never been included on any article I've seen (obviously there's the odd exception like above). Place of birth is all that's required, as it doesn't involve any controversy. Now can I direct you both to a semi-related discussion here? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 21:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about that. In many article we say "X is a Irish runner...", this surely indicates nationality? Rockpocket 01:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but do you really think it's appropriate to say "X is a British member" about Irish republicans? It's asking for trouble, when all that's needed is a place of birth. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 01:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clear, my earlier comment was related to articles about Irish republicans only, not Irish biographical articles in general. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 01:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean in circumstances where Irish Republicans were born in Ireland while it was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland? In that case, if a nationality was required for whatever reason, then I would probably use "X is an [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland|Irish]] member..." or simply "X is an [[Ireland|Irish]] member..." If you mean in circumstances where Irish Republicans were born in Northern Ireland, then I would probably use "X is an [[Northern Ireland|Northern Irish]] member..." My understanding of the original question, however, was the concern that Irish Republicans born in the ROI after 1937 do not even recognize the ROI as a state, and hence we should not refer to them as [[Republic of Ireland|Irish]]. I don't agree with that. Rockpocket 03:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no such thing as northern Irish, Northern Ireland is not a country, it is a British controlled province, therefore under the GFA its population are either Irish, British or have duel nationality.--Padraig 12:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Europe is not a country yet one could be described as European, Lancaster is not a country yet one could be described as Lancastrian. There is nothing wrong with describing someone as Northern Irish if they were born in Northern Ireland. Rockpocket 16:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

There is plenty wrong with it, it is a Unionist attempt to promote the idea that those Born in Northern Ireland are seperate from the Irish race, and I was born in Northern Ireland and I am Irish, I also have the option of British citizenship or duel nationality, but there is no option for northern Irish.--Padraig 16:50, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe anyone else was discussing race, we were discussing place of birth. Rockpocket 17:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Well place of birth is Northern Ireland is this case, so where is northern Irish coming from, I was born in Northern Ireland I wasn't born in northern Irish.--Padraig 17:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) Its semantics. I was born in "Europe", not "European". So what? I am still European. The point was that if there is verifiable information what one is of a different nationality than the place of birth then we can use that (in your case, you say you are Irish, so we would call you Irish) However, lacking that verifiable information, if one is required to use the phrasing "X is a Y-ish Z" then I would use "Northern Irish" if its a verified fact you were born in Northern Ireland. It would be but a guess to call you Irish or British in that situation. Rockpocket 17:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

That's why we don't tend to use it. Describing an Irish republican (from Northern Ireland) as British is contentious, and without verifiable information that they hold Irish nationality we don't tend to call them Irish. So it's safer all round just to say, for example, "born in Belfast, Northern Ireland". Nothing contentious, no POV, no labels the subject would object to, no verifiability problems. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 05:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Easter Rising

There is some controversy about aspects of the Easter Rising article. Could some members of this project look into it in an attempt to settle differences? Most of it is covered in the final section of the talk page ("Objectives"), though there are some other minor points to be addressed as well. Thanks. -R. fiend (talk) 16:37, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Template transclusion problem

There seems to have been some minor change to the code that has wreaked havoc with some WP:IR article talk pages, because {{WP:IR}} began to transclude the project page (i.e., WP:IR) instead of the template of the same name. User:Gimmetrow did a fix by renaming the template {{WP IR}} and that has solved the problem - but this new template name will have to be added to all the article talk pages, I suspect. See this edit as an example that seemed to work - I simply removed the colon from the template name. Someone with WP:AWB could probably make the necessary edits pretty quickly. I have to do other things now in the real world, so I can't do it, but if someone from this project could do it I think we'd all appreciate it. Unless someone knows another way? Cheers, Walkerma (talk) 06:34, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Category:People of the Irish War of Independence

I just created Category:People of the Irish War of Independence, which needs more rticles.

I made Category:Irish Republican Army members 1917-1922 a subcat of Category:People of the Irish War of Independence, and I'm now not so sure that was the right thing to do. I have no strong views either way, so just thought I'd raise it here as something which members of this project may want to consider.

Hope this helps. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Heavy gang

I was just tidying up the rather stubby article on Patrick Cooney, and hoped to link to the heavy gang, but its a redlink :(

Does anyone here have any sources to allow them to write an article on that subject? I think it's much-needed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Most of the sources I've seen are of questionable neutrality, and while an article (or at least the bones of one) could be written from them I'd not be willing to vouch for its neutrality. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 11:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

They were heavily involved in the Sallins train robbery case where Nicky Kelly was wrongly convicted, he was eventualy aquitted and won a case for wrongful conviction.--Padraig (talk) 13:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

TG4 had a programme all about Osgur Breatnach [10], and the work of the Heavy gang. I'll try track down a copy? --Domer48 (talk) 14:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

There was also a book written about the Sallins robbery, and their convictions, can't remember the name of the title.--Padraig (talk) 15:47, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I find it. --Domer48 (talk) 22:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

While Justice Slept: The True Story of Nicky Kelly and the Sallins Robbery? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Sinn Féin politician categories

These categories need some sorting out to account for the complex history of Sinn Féin — ee the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland#Sinn_F.C3.A9in_categories.

Any suggestions? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Omagh bombing

The article is currently at 'start' class and at 'mid' importance, which does not seem right. 24.32.208.58 (talk) 18:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Irish version of personal names

There's a discussion ongoing at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles)#The two proposals about when and how to include Irish versions of names of Irish people. jnestorius^(talk) 21:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Fenians

I'll start to reference the Fenian articles, and try pull them all together. It will take a while as I will include the Bio's. --Domer48 (talk) 22:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair dues to you, Domer! It's a major task, but well worth doing. Bail ó Dhia ar an obair. Scolaire (talk) 15:49, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Its only 150 years of history LOL. --Domer48 (talk) 18:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)