Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Iran
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[edit] "Here is scientific proof that says Azeris are not Turks: You can argue with people but not science"
Azeris are mixed of Armeno-Iranian heritage:
Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus: evidence from the Y-chromosome
- Nasidze I, Sarkisian T, Kerimov A, Stoneking M.
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Inselstrasse 22, 04103, Leipzig, Germany. nasidze@eva.mpg.de
A previous analysis of mtDNA variation in the Caucasus found that Indo-European-speaking Armenians and Turkic-speaking Azerbaijanians were more closely related genetically to other Caucasus populations (who speak Caucasian languages) than to other Indo-European or Turkic groups, respectively. Armenian and Azerbaijanian therefore represent language replacements, possibly via elite dominance involving primarily male migrants, in which case genetic relationships of Armenians and Azerbaijanians based on the Y-chromosome should more closely reflect their linguistic relationships. We therefore analyzed 11 bi-allelic Y-chromosome markers in 389 males from eight populations, representing all major linguistic groups in the Caucasus. As with the mtDNA study, based on the Y-chromosome Armenians and Azerbaijanians are more closely-related genetically to their geographic neighbors in the Caucasus than to their linguistic neighbors elsewhere.
So, both the mtDNA (female line) and the Y-chromosomes (from father to son) seem to prove the fact, that modern Azeris are predominantly Turkic-speaking Armenians and Iranians. Their DNA has Europeana and Middle Eastern traces, but not Eastern Asian ones , which one would assume if they really were Turks. 72.57.230.179
[edit] I have placed the Azari Article under the Iranian Wiki Project
Please take a look at it and work on it.Azaris are an important part of Iran/Persia. 72.57.230.179 21:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Absolute Proof that the claims from the Republic Of Azarbaijan's Revisionists are FALSE
Azaris are culturally, ethnically and historically Iranian; that said here is acadmeic fact.... Here are more sources that prove a lot of what you are saying is misinformation. http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/PARTIIAzar.html
The pan-Turanian theories discussed in Part I represent only a part of the picture. There is a whole set of beliefs being narrated about Iranian Azerbaijan in both the Republic of Azerbaijan and the Turkish Republic. They are using the Turkish language as an instrument to differentiate Iranian Turcophones from the rest of Iran. Some of the pan-Turanian claims to Iranian Azerbaijan can be summarized into the following:
(1) Greater Azerbaijan was divided between Russia and Persia.
(2) Azerbaijanis have spoken Turkish since the advent of History.
(3) Turks have been in the Caucasus for over 5000 Years.
(4) The Safavid Empire was Turkish.
(5) Sattar Khan was a pan-Turanian separatist.
(6) Babak Khorramdin was a Turk who fought against Persia.
(7) Azerbaijanis and all who speak Turkish are Turkish by race.
Before discussing these items, an important point must be revisited. Pan-Turanian claims to Azerbaijan are supported by a very powerful western lobby in the form of multinational and geopolitical petroleum interests. These hope to access and dominate the lucrative oil bonanza looming in the energy deposits of the Caucasus and Central Asia (see Part VI, items 1-3).
(d) Mr. Mohammad Amin Rasulzadeh. A leading proponent of Arran’s name change was Mohammad Amin Rasulzadeh (1884-1955), the first leader of the newly created Republic of Azerbaijan (see photo below). Rasulzadeh was of Iranian origin from Baku, and was in fact heavily involved in the constitutional democratic movement of Iran during the early 1900s [xviii] (see Sattar Khan in item 5). Rasulzadeh was in fact the editor of the newspaper Iran-e-Now (The New Iran). Russian influence and coercion finally forced the Iranian government to expel Rasulzadeh from Iran in 1909 (?); he was exiled to Ottoman Turkey, where the Young Turk movement had gained power.
By the 1930s, Rasulzadeh’s writings revealed his full conversion to pan-Turanianism:
(a) At first he admitted that “Azerbaijan” (Arran and Azerbaijan in Iran?) was an ancient Iranian province that had been linguistically Turcified since at least the 13th century.
(b) He then rejected his previous writings and declared that Azerbaijan (both Arran and Azerbaijan in Iran) had always been “Turkish” and was never historically an integral part of Persia [xxiv]
Rasulzadeh had betrayed his Iranian heritage in two ways. First, he failed to fulfill his promises to Iranian Azerbaijanis to rectify the name change he had bought for Arran (at pan-Turanian behest). Second, Rasulzadeh adopted a false, divisive, and racist ideology. Rasulzadeh’s legacy continues to haunt the Caucasus and Iran to this day. That legacy has also provided an excellent tool for geopolitical manipulation.
After his arrest and expulsion from Russia, Rasulzadeh settled in Turkey, where he died in 1954 (see his funeral in Turkey below). Rasulzadeh established the “Azerbaijan National Centre” in Turkey, a movement which at the time was organized for the purpose of opposing Soviet rule in Arran (modern Republic of Azerbaijan).
c) Linguistic Turkification. The process of linguistic Turkification was reinforced with the arrival of the Mongols in the 1200s, and their Il-Khanid dynasty in Persia. Tamerlane’s descendants, the Qara/Kara-Qoyunlu (Black Sheep) and Ak/Aq-Qoyunlu (White Sheep) also ruled Iran. It must be noted that the Turkish migrants became absorbed into mainstream Persia, and they greatly patronized Persian, arts, culture and literature. Turks as whole have been tremendously influenced by Iranian culture – a prime example is the Moghul Dynasty of India, of Turkmen-Mongol descent. The Moghuls promoted Persian culture in India, a legacy which lasts to this day in modern India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.
By the early 16th century (see Safavids item 4), Azerbaijani Turkish had largely replaced the indigenous Iranian Azeri in Azerbaijan and had also spread to Arran. The Turkish language however, did not alter the thousands year long Iranian character and legacy of Arran and Azerbaijan. As noted in item 4, the Safavid dynasty, whose members spoke Turkish in court and introduced much Turkish vocabulary to Iran, considered themselves as the heirs of Persia and bitterly fought the Ottoman Turks throughout their reign.
In Persia, identity has never been delineated by singular, simplistic and narrow concepts such as “race”, “mother language” or even “religion”. Consider the following examples:
SafavidsThe aforementioned Nader Shah was an ethnic Turcomen and adhered to the Sunni branch of Islam. Karim Khan Zand (1705-1779) (see illustration below) and his partisans spoke Luri, a west Iranian language distinct from Persian and Kurdish. The Zands (like Nader Shah before them) were essential in preserving Persia’s territorial integrity after the fall of the Safavids.
(3) Turks have been in the Caucasus for over 5000 Years. FALSE
This is at best, a grandiose exaggeration. The real influence of the Turks begins with the Seljuks and Ottomans, and even then, the Turks are only one more layer upon an ancient region that has seen a rich and varied legacy. If anything, it is the Persian and (to a lesser extent), the Greco-Roman legacies that remain in the Caucasus. The Turks, like the Russians and Ukrainians certainly have their legacy in the Caucasus. The issue in question is the exaggeration of the Turkish role, now proposed by pan-Turanian ideologues.
The Caucasus is one of the oldest cradles of human civilization – a prime example being the proto-Kartvelian Hurrian empire (2500-1270 BC) which at one time ruled much of northwest Iran and contemporary Kurdistan. The Hurrian legacy is still evident among the Kurds who use the ergative feature in their speech – a phenomenon seen in modern Georgian. While the Caucasus has certainly seen its share of Persian, Greek, Turkish and Russian influence, she has in turn vigorously and profoundly influenced all of these cultures in turn.
“The oldest outside influence in Trans-Caucasia is that of Persia (p.203)…many of its populations, including Armenians and Georgians, as well as Persians and Kurds, the Transcaucasus had much closer ties with the former Sassanian world to its south and east than with the world to the west (p.204)”.[Whittow, Mark, The Making of Byzantium: 600-1025, Berkley: University of California Press, p. 203-204].
'(7) Azerbaijanis and all who speak Turkish are Turkish by race.'FALSE
(a) Ziya Gokalp. The notion of Azeris being Turkish because of language is based on the late Ziya Gokalp (1876-1924) who equated language with racial and ethnic membership: you are racially Turkish if you speak Turkish. This is a standard argument of characters like Mr. Chehreganli and his western geopolitical supporters. Gokalp was in fact a Kurd born in Diyarbakr. He is one of a long line of non-Turks who helped build pan-Turanian ideology (Part I, item 1).
By no means is the discussion in this item attempting to simplistically outline the complex (and anthropolically interwoven) Iranian and Turkish national, ethnic, and linguistic identities. Such a Herculean task would require volumes of text. Instead, we are clearly confining the discussion to the linear and (in my opinion) divisive concept of “race” – in the purely anthological sense.
The main weakness of Gokalp’s simplistic premise is his oversimplification of the complex interrelationships between ethnicity, nationality, language and historical migrations. His logic is that speakers of a language “X” must also be racially members of “X”.
Likewise, being a Turcophone does not mean that one is automatically Turkish or Turkic by race. National identity is based on a number of domains, only one of which is defined by language. Nevertheless, this simplistic logic (language = race) is being used to attack the Iranian heritage of the people of Azerbaijan and Iran in general.
National identity is multi-faceted. A Belgian could be either a Francophone (Walloon) or Dutch dialect speaker (Flemish). A Frenchman can be Basque (Eskuri) or speak an Italian dialect (e.g. Provencal, Corsican, etc.). In northern France, many of the inhabitants lay claim to a proud Celtic tradition (Brittany).
Many modern Turks hail from Bosnian, Georgian, Iranian (Persian, Kurdish, Azeri) Greek, Arab, Venetian, Slavic and Armenian backgrounds. Arabs are just as diverse – in the eastern Arab world, many have Iranian ancestry (Persian and Kurdish) – the Levant has seen multitudes of Hittite, Mittani, etc. settlers in its history. In the Western Arab world one finds a plethora of Christians (Greek Orthodox, Coptic, etc.). One can also trace much of the ancestry of modern Arabs to the earlier Semitic peoples such as the Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians (Aramaic-speakers), Syriacs, etc.
The Iranian ethnic mosaic is far too complex to even begin attempting to define it in the confines of this commentary. If we extend timelines back to pre-Aryan arrivals, we witness proto-Elamites in the Southwest and Southeast, and Hurrian arrivals from the Caucasus. We then have a long period of Iranian Aryan migrations onto the Iranian plateau and eastern Anatolia (many areas of western Iran and modern Kurdistan was already settled by Assyrian peoples). Arab settlers also arrived during Sassanian and post-Sassanian eras (a number of their descendants survive in Khorrassan and Tajikestan)– these are then eclipsed by subsequent Turkic and Mongol arrivals. The very overall sketch just outlined highlights how complex definitions such as “race” and “language” are.
Gokalp was not entirely wrong about Iran – there are a plethora of Turkic settlers who can trace their ancestry to the original Oghuzz (the aforementioned Nader Shah was a Turkmen). But even the identity of the Turkmen (meaning “very Turk”) is hotly disputed. There are claims of strong Iranic admixture within them. This is not surprising as Turkic and Iranic peoples have been intertwined in Central Asia for thousands of years. Even the Mongols who invaded Persia are said to have had some Iranian (North Iranic?) ancestry (see Turnbull in references).
The genetic ancestry of modern Turks is highly varied, mainly as a result of multiple migrations, wars and empires. While modern Turks (and a growing number of Hungarians) stress their genetic connection to Central Asia, scientific evidence fails to corroborate their beliefs. True, there are Turkmen Turks of Central Asian stock in eastern Turkey, however a large proportion of modern Turks have Balkan, Persian, Greek, Armenian, Kurdish, Azeri, Georgian, Varangian, and even some Celtic ancestry. The latter seems surprising; however the term “Ankara” may be derived from the Celtic “Ankyra”. The Galatian Celts appear in Anatolia’s interior after the Greeks defeated them in 230 BC. The original Turkic stock from Central Asia (some of whom live in northeast Iran today) have little or no connection to the European-type U5 cluster.
(c) The Analyses of Colin Renfrew.
Professor Colin Renfrew (see 1994 References) notes how Turkic languages spread by Elite Dominance:
“…incoming minorities…conquer other populations and…impose their languages on them. The Altaic family spread in this fashion…”[Colin Renfrew, World linguistic diversity, Scientific American, 270(1), 1994, p.118]
Genetic alteration can only occur as a result of one of more of the following:
[a] Sustained migrations across a long period of time
[b] Population dispersals by farming,
[c] Dispersals forced by climactic changes.
In general, the Turks did not arrive peacefully but as conquering elites who imposed their languages upon indigenous populations (Azeris, Arranis, etc.). Conquering elites provide very modest genetic changes to the indigenous populations that they conquer. However, they can alter the population’s language as result of their elite military and political dominance.
(d) The Cavalli-Sforza et al. Genetic Studies.
Renfrew’s studies have been corroborated by Professor Luigi Cavalli-Sforza (see photo below) and his colleagues, who have concluded the following after decades of genetic research:
“Around the third century B.C., groups speaking Turkish languages…threatened empires in China, Tibet, India, Central Asia, before eventually arriving in Turkey…genetic traces of their movement can sometimes be found, but they are often diluted, since the numbers of conquerors were always much smaller than the populations they conquered…(p.125)…Turks…conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453..replacement of Greek with Turkish ..Genetic effects of invasion were modest in Turkey. Their armies had few soldiers…invading Turkish populations would be small relative to the subject populations that had a long civilization and history…(p.152).” [Cavalli-Sforza, Luigi (2000). Genes, Peoples and Languages. New York: North Point Press. P.125, 152]
Hungarians are considered to be Magyar speaking Europeans – not an Asiatic Turkic people. In like manner, why are the Azerbaijanis (of Iran in particular) being forcibly re-defined as “Turanian” simply because they speak Seljuk Oghuzz Turkish? How can a single index (Turkish language) be used to virtually erase Azerbaijan’s mighty civilizational identity in Persia? Azerbaijan has been of vital importance in the development of Persian civilization, just as Hungary has been a vital element in the development of European civilization.
It is here were the barbaric aspects of “race criteria” break down. In Afghanistan we have the Mongol descended “Hazara” (lit. “The Thousand” in Persian) who now speak Persian, or the many people of Khazar Turkish-Jewish descent in Dagestan (next to Chechniya) who speak Persian. Conversely, Azerbaijanis are an essentially Iranic people who mainly speak Turkish. A branch of the Turcophone Azeris are believed to have been settled in Iran’s Fars province by the Safavids– they are today known as the Qashqai’s (note photo of Qashaqi girl by Shahyar Mahabadi).
.....with all this criteria many of the Azari articles will have to refurbished. 72.57.230.179
[edit] The Seeds of Discord are Being Planted
Iranians, Editors, People of Rational Minds, Academics... The seeds of propaganda are bieng planted: reports of the massacres of Azaris are being doctored. Look at what is weing said by editors from the Republic of Azarbaijan about Azaris, [1]. They are really trying to forment biased articles. They have created to alternative articles about Shah Ismail I, one being a mythical Turk king. WE should merge the article and get rid of the Pan-Turkist fiction! 72.57.230.179
[edit] News about Iran
British troops are mobilizing on the Iranian border http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060830&articleId=3097
[edit] Further signs of War against Iran and Syria
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=NAZ20061001&articleId=3361
[edit] Misc
[edit] Help needed
Following are lyrics of Shakila's song Yegaaneh, which I completely love. It would be *awesome* if someone can translate it for me. Thanks a ton!
تا کی به تمنای وصال تو یگانه
اشکم شود از هر مژه چون سیل روانه
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه
خواهد به سرآیدشب هجران تو یا نه
جمعی به تو مشغول و تو فارغ ز میانه
هر در که زنم صاحب آن خانه تویی تو
هر جا که شدم پرتو کاشانه تویی تو
در کعبه و در دیر چو جانانه تویی تو
منظور من از کعبه و بتخانه تویی تو مقصود تویی ...کعبه و بتخانه بهانه
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه
بلبل به چمن زار گل رخسار نشان دید
پروانه در آتش شد و اسرار نهان دید
عارف صفت حمد تو از پیر و جوان دید
یعنی همه جا عکس رخ یار توان دید
دیوانه منم ..من که روم خانه به خانه
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه
جمعی به تو مشغول و تو فارغ ز میانه
عاقل به قوانین خرد راه تو جوید
دیوانه برون از همه آئین تو پوید
تا غنچهء نشکفتهء این باغ که بوید
هر کس به زبانی صفت حمد تو گوید
بلبل به غزل خوانی و قمری به ترانه
رفتم به در صومعه زاهد و عابد
دیدم همه را پیش رخت راکع و ساجد
در بتکده رهبانم و در صومعه زاهد
گه معتکف دیرم و گه ساکن مسجد
یعنی که تو را می طلبم خانه به خانه
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه
بلبل به چمن زان گل رخسار نشان دید
پروانه در آتش شد و اسرار نهان دید
عارف صفت حمد تو از پیر و جوان دید
یعنی همه جا عکس رخ یار توان دید
دیوانه منم ..من که روم خانه به خانه
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه
جمعی به تو مشغول و تو فارغ ز میانه
deeptrivia (talk) 00:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Iran article award
I'm offering an award for expanding Iran-related articles, as long as they deal with current political or religious events. See the Award Board. Cdamama 14:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Yerevan
Hi. Members of this wikiproject may wish to comment here: [2] to help resolve the dispute. Regards, Grandmaster 13:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] New proposed project on Western Asia
First, my compliments on the quality of the organization of this talk page. Secondly, and more directly, there is now a proposed project dealing with the region of Western Asia and the countries within that region at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Western Asia. It has been suggested that the scope of the project be expanded beyond the countries included in the official UN designation of the region to include Iran as well, given the role that Iran has played the people of Iran have played in the history of the region. I would greatly appreciate any input on that page as to whether the members of this project would favor or disapprove of such an expansion. Even were the project to be expanded, it would not in any way seek to "trump" any extant projects for areas in its scope, potentially including Iran, but deal only with those articles and subjects which deal with matters which include things outside the scope of any of the other related projects. Any input would be more than welcome. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:10, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 20:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Mehran Karimi Nasseri
I noticed a problem that was propagated on a lot of wikis (from that article I suppose). The transliteration of the name is a mistake, as it is written Merhan, while its name is مهران , transliterated by Mehran. That would be great if an admin here could change the title (as Mehran Karimi Nasseri is a redirect, I can't do it), and give that information to other wikis. Fabienkhan | talk page 11:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Geographical names in Iran
For the title of some pages (such as Māzandarān Province), the exact transliteration is used and for many others, just the common spelling is used. I think we should have a uniform guideline for these names.
My proposal is using the common spelling as the title of the page and mentioning the exact transliteration in the introduction (just after the original name in Persian alphabet). In the case that there are several common spellings for the name, the spelling used in the official governmental websites or publications should take precedence over the others. Jahangard 21:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- For info : this is the way we do on french WP. We have created a template that allows us to write in persian script and with exact transliteration besides the common spelling : See the template and its use. Fabienkhan | talk page 10:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Wildlife of Iran
Kindly contribute to this article when you get time, and request others too.
Thanks
Atulsnischal 13:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- for those who can understand french, you can also translate from fr:Faune d'Iran. Fabienkhan | talk page 17:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Iranian plateau
There is a brief article on the Iranian plateau written from a geological perspective, it was completely wrong, although I've changed it to the geological minimum. However the Iranian plateau is also a major area of ancient civilizations discussed and studied by anthropologists, while I know a bit about the geology of the Iranian plateau because it is an accretionary regime like California, and know some about various civilizations of the region, I've never studied, and don't have time to research, the extent and a description of the Iranian plateau from a geographical perspective. It is an extremely important region from an anthropolgical point of view, and articles link to the geological stub, thinking it includes information about the geographical region, which it does not (except that I include information that it belongs in the introduction, once I realized this omission). IMO this article needs immediate attention to add a description to the importance of this geographical region to the studies of ancient civilizations from the archaeological evidence. It also wouldn't hurt if there were an Iranian geologist on-board. KP Botany 18:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Military conscription in Iran?
Would anyone like to create an article about military conscription in Iran? Check out the articles in Category:Conscription by country for examples. Siyavash 20:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Subregions of Iran
Are there any administrative divisions within Iran above the provinces, such as geographic regions? The category Iran-geo-stub has become large enough that it needs splitting along such lines. Please reply at my talk page to be sure the Iranian wikipedians have a say in this! Aelfthrytha 04:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Urgent attention
According to WikiCharts — Top 100 — 03/2007 Battle of Thermopylae and 300 (film) are the 2nd and 4th articles of wikipedia which have been viewed in this month. Please pay attention to them. Khoda negahdare shoma Sa.vakilian(t-c)--19:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Norouz or Nowruz
There is a discussion about the main title of that article. Check its talk page. Jahangard 04:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bilateral relations discussion
I would like to invite you all to participate in a discussion at this thread regarding bilateral relations between two countries. All articles related to foreign relations between countries are now under the scope of WikiProject Foreign relations, a newly created project. We hope that the discussion will result in a more clean and organized way of explaining such relationships. Thank you. Ed ¿Cómo estás? 18:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Contemporary history of Iran
Do you agree on making a wikiproject or at least a task force (like this)about Contemporary history of Iran which includes issues since 1900.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 06:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I think we can make a new wikiproject if ten wikipedians support this idea. This new wikiproject comprises several task forces:
- Constitutional revolution and decline of Qajar dynasty
- Pahlavi dynasty
- Iranian Islamic revolution and Islamic republic of Iran
- Contemporary arts and literature
- Contemporary scientific and technological activities
- Contemporary religious activities
- Contemporary economic and social activities
Please add your idea here:--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 06:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- You mean since 1900 yeah? I think that's a great idea. We can have different "departments" that deal with different things (like WikiProject India has). I personally like doing biography articles so I will take that responsibility --Rayis 09:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
-
- I'll try to find time to participate. --Leroy65X 17:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- Good idea. I will support. Farhoudk 08:05, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
- Agree definitely. Sangak Talk 14:09, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
- I propose to start with a task force until there would be at least 10 active members.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 07:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Pre-revolution Iran flag
The flag has been deleted. It used to be Image:Image:Iran flag with emblem 1964-1979.png, but no longer exists. Recently there have been users going around on every page deleting photos that have no tag or according to them are being used incorrectly. Someone please upload the image again. It was used in several articles, specifically sports-related ones.Nokhodi 03:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, can you post some links to the exact version of the flag that was removed.Azerbaijani 04:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC
- That's the problem, I wasn't the original uploader, nor do I know where the file is from. Nokhodi 04:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Article to watch for non-NPOV edits
A huge amount of dubious claims, such as Iranian support of Al-Qaeda and bin Laden, was inserted on Quds Force in the past months. I removed these claims, and the reversion war seems to have stopped. But an editor has stated that he "will diligently seek to improve this article with mainstream sources that only a very biased partisan would object to." I am not sure what that means, but please add the article to your watch lists to avert dubious POV edits.--Gerash77 04:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Projects Quality Scale
Hello. So before we can class an article as an A article, we must first put it throught the Good article nomination process? There are lots of good articles out there, so maybe we should start putting them through nomination.Azerbaijani 15:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Persian Wikipedia Needs Help and Improvement
The Persian version of the wikipedia needs alot of improvement. As I have said before, it is very shameful that the Persian wikipedia doesn't have many fleshed-out articles, and infact not many articles in general. It would be extremely helpful if we can have a goal of editing and adding new aticles to the Persian wikipedia as well. We specially need the help of those people who are fluint in writing in Persian. It would be nice if we can get the Persian wikipedia to reach the top 10 wikipedias, we do after all have many dedicated members.
Among Persian wikis that need improvement are:
* Iran * History of Iran * Politics and Government of Iran * Persian Culture * Science in Iran * Geography of Iran * Irans Nuclear Program
Some Persian Wikis that don't even exist are:
* Economy of Iran * Demographics of Iran * Military of Iran * Transport in Iran * Communications in Iran * Energy of Iran
If you have any ideas or comments or are simply going to help please say so here. Thanks alot for the help and concideration!
pedram-e 05:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
- There are some great problems. One of them is the problem of dispute resolution. As I know there isn't any policy or guideline and any committee to do so which results in endless controversies. I think it's more important to help them with it. You can speak with their admins like Hojjat or Behaafarid --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 12:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
-
- i'm just thinking out aloud here -
- do you have Persian translations of the various meta documents such as WP:NPOV and Wikipedia:List_of_policies ? i see that the NPOV page certainly exists in fa, and a short summary of List_of_policies exists, but it looks like a lot of work in translating them and/or modifying them in ways appropriate to the Persian cultural context (i can't imagine that a lot of it is culture-dependent, but some of it may be) has not been done yet.
- One idea is to challenge all people participating in a dispute and say, hey, we want to learn from the experience of other language wikipedias, so let's propose to freeze this particular article until we have translated documents X, Y, Z of the List_of_policies - if you want to be able to edit this article A, you should be willing to put in some work to develop articles X, Y and Z, which in turn may help us to resolve this dispute more constructively.
- Of course, if the people involved do not know english or another language in which the documents exist, then they would have to wait until someone bilingual can do an initial translation, and then the others can modify it or discuss it.
- Part of the idea is that if people in a dispute translate some of these meta-pages, then they will be forced to accept that unless they more or less follow these rules, they'll just be involved in endless, unconstructive disputes where everyone loses. Moreover, they'll be forced to accept that such rules/guidelines do in fact exist - many people grow up in circumstances where their idea of conflict resolution is by force and balance of power rather than patient, polite rational argument based on empirical evidence - but if they learn about the latter, i don't see why they won't accept it. It doesn't require a PhD in astrophysics to understand basic commonsense logic.
- Another way of saying this: the fact that people are strongly emotional about certain issues does not mean that they are incapable of stepping back and looking at the issue more objectively or from others' points of view. If they are serious, long-term wikipedia editors, then they should be willing to do some meta work and should be able to find ways to NPOV the relevant articles they're working on.
- Something which is obvious anyway: Most Persian speakers are presumably in Iran or have Iranian background. Iranian democracy was overthrown by the US/UK in 1953, there was a revolution leading to not a huge improvement in the human rights situation in 1979, and although there's been a gradual indigeneous democratisation and opening up, it's hardly surprising that among the 70 million or so Iranians (and Iranian expats) there's a quite wide variety of POVs. Conflicts should be expected: what is important is to develop a conflict-resolution culture - i.e. getting to the meta stage: Wikipedia:List_of_policies - IMHO this doesn't require so much a committee or powerful admins, it rather requires broad knowledge and understanding of and practice using the concepts/methods/techniques.
- i hope this rant has helped. :) Boud 00:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
- PS: i would like to see an article by fa.wikipedians celebrating the soon-to-be achievement of getting 20,000 articles... You could write both about good points and bad points (such as difficulties in conflict resolution). :) Boud 00:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
- i'm just thinking out aloud here -
[edit] Excellent Article all Iranologists and members of Wikiproject should read
I quote:
The war dossiers against Iran and Syria, the last two bastions of independence in the Middle East, are being built. General Wesley Clark, the former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO in Europe, has confirmed that the White House has been plotting a course based on a major military roadmap in the Middle East, Central Asia, and East Africa that would start in Afghanistan and Iraq and end with Iran. [2] Clark has stated that, after Afghanistan, seven additional nations were on the the Pentagon’s list to be attacked and invaded over a five-year period: Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and finally Iran. [3]
......
The use of discretionary executive and presidential powers in the hands of the White House is slated to take place during a period of national crisis. The National Security Agency (NSA) eavesdropping controversy that arose after 2001 demonstrates some of the capabilities of the Bush Jr. Administration in regards to the use of executive powers under the pretext of war-time or emergency measures. At present, the American President has decided to exercise only a few of his emergency powers. Under the National Emergencies Act the White House has only utilized provisions relating to the military and U.S. national security. The White House can exploit extraordinary powers that suspend civil liberties and can even challenge the American Constitution. Because of the uncertain and the shifting shape of the “Global War on Terror” that is continually being redefined, a moment may arise when a “Constitutional Dictatorship” is declared to ensure the continuity of government. [5]
Moreover, the mechanisms have been put in place in the United States to allow for the hypothetical extension of the presidential term of George W. Bush Jr. or allow Vice-President Richard (Dick) B. Cheney to become U.S. president in the context of a war-time or emergency situation. This eventuality could occur should a major international war be launched in the Middle East— which is what a war against Iran and Syria would effectively create.
.....
The Guardian, one of Britain’s most influence newspapers, has released a controversial article claiming that Iran has planned a secret summer offensive to drive U.S. troops out of Iraq for 2007. [6] There are fresh attempts underway to link Al-Qaeda to Tehran once again, similarly as the attempts to link Al-Qaeda to the late Saddam Hussein and his Iraqi government. The Associated Press also concurrently in step with The Guardian and other major information outlets released an account of Iranian plans to attack the European continent
......
After the fall of Iraq, only three Middle Eastern states remained that were outside of the orbit of the Anglo-American alliance and their partners. These countries were Lebanon, Syria, and Iran. Lebanon was the weakest of the three and under heavy Syrian influence.
.....
The Israeli Chief of Staff, Daniel Halutz, estimated in November 2006 that there would be a war with Syria in the Summer of 2007. [30] Several Russian analysts have also warned that there could be a war in the Levant between Syria and Israel that could spillover into the rest of the Middle East. Indeed, in Israel there is much talk about a “sizeable” war in the Middle East that will consume the Palestinian Territories, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, and Iran. The leadership of Iran and Syria are prepared for the possibility of such a war too, and warning against it. In the wider Arab World, there is also much talk and whispers about a major war— a “great war.” There are also reports and growing fears in the Caucasus, Cyprus, Greece, Turkey, Pakistan, and Central Asia on the possibility of a war in the Middle East.
Here is the rest of the article in its fullest http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5791
[edit] Emad Khorasani
Would anyone be able to help at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emad Khorasani? The article is likely to be deleted through lack of sources, unless someone can translate some online biographical details from Persian to assert notability. Thanks. Gordonofcartoon 17:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Project: Persia (کارهایی برای ایران)
Hi !
A new website called "Project: Persia" has been built in order to unify Iranians' efforts in defending Iran and her culture. One hand can't produce so much sound, so let's go to the Project: Persia.
Suggest your friends to join Project: Persia as soon as possible.
Sasanjan 21:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] IFD help =
We need help from someone who can read Farsi at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2007 July 20#Image:Imam_in_Mehrabad.jpg. Thanks. howcheng {chat} 17:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Evolution and education in Iran
I'm trying to track down which countries besides the US don't teach evolution or teach it with some controversy in the classroom. I've discovered that Saudi Arabia doesn't teach it at all, and there is controversy at least comparable to the US in Turkey, but we need more thorough information about this for the article creation and evolution in public education. Would somebody familiar with education in Iran be able to explain the situation here, on my talk page, or on the article's talk page? Thanks, Richard001 23:57, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Ara**** Gulf in the new Hollywood block-buster which called scientists "too smart" to be Iranian !!!
Dorud Dear Friends...
Take a look :
From RadioJavan Website :
"The blockbuster-movie, Transformers, which came out last month in theaters, had one of the characters call the Persian Gulf... the Arabian Gulf. This Dreamworks and Paramount Pictures made by Michael Bay has made over $500 million world-wide. In another scene of the movie, claimed that the scientists were "too smart" to be Iranian. Michael Bay is also rumored to be directing the video game adaptation of "Prince of Persia", which is set to be released in summer 2009."
Also read this: http://www.payvand.com/news/07/jul/1312.html
We should prepare a petition as soon as possible, and also express our words in the WP article of the Transformers movie.
A new forum has been created for unifying all our efforts: http://www.project-persia.org/talk/forumdisplay.php?fid=23
It's a big shame if we continue our current funny silence, we must shout as loud as possible
Sasanjan 09:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- The part about Iranian scientists not being smart enough clearly belongs in Anti-Iranian sentiment.Hajji Piruz 15:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
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- I believe it wasnt really part of the script until Michael Bay, the director added it. there is an interview that could be found in the internet supporting this, my view is that this was just added to create blockbuster talk concerning the movie, amazingly done at that. It was a marketing ploy pure and simple. --ParthianPrince (talk) 21:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
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- WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Please do not use Wikipedia as a medium to recruit people for a petition, or to "shout as loud as possible." --Wikiacc (¶) 01:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Iranian Scouting
Can someone please render Aamaadeh Baash (Be Prepared), the Scout Motto, into Persian script? Thanks! Chris 15:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] im an Arab, and not Persian
Assalam Alaykom... i believe in Two great Nations Living side by side, and making a world alliance, between a Unified Arab League and a Unified Persian Republics... that Include Iran, Central Asia, Pakistan and Kazakhstan...
well regardless of my dream that seems far, im a major contributer in the Arab Articles, especially in the Maps arena...
i was really interested by the different Persian Dynasties lately, and have created over 10 maps, that i personally admire, for the Persian Dynasties, but i dont really know where to post them for this group... or is there a Persian Project on Wikipedia??
Map Link -> [3]
peace be with you all, and please contact me here —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arab League (talk • contribs) 22:42, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
alaikum assalam, thank you for your support my brother, may be you can aid us more in creating certain maps in which there is a time line from the medes dynasty to sassanid dynasty, a sort historical changes, like the ones they have with the Mongolian conquests.
and I wish as well, that the greater Iran will be united once again, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and the like. --ParthianPrince (talk) 20:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Category:Iranian democracy activists
Earlier today I created Category:Democracy activists by country, along with several new subcategories thereof, including Category:Iranian democracy activists. I've aleady placed a couple of people in this category, but I'm not familiar with all of the other individuals who also belong there. So I thought perhaps some of you folks might wish to lend a hand with this endeavor. Regards, Cgingold 02:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Battle of Thermopylae GA sweeps review: On Hold
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the requirements of the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. I have recently reviewed Battle of Thermopylae and have determined that it is in very good shape but need some assistance to remain a GA. I have put the article on hold for seven days until the issues on the talk page of the article are addressed. I wanted to mention it here since the article falls under this project, and if interested, could assist in improving the article and help it to remain a GA. It currently has a few problems concerning inline citations and other general fixes. Additionally, I will be leaving messages on other WikiProjects and editors affiliated with the page to increase the number of participants assisting in the workload.
If you have any questions about what I've said here, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 23:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Articles for Deletion Ali Dehbashi and Bukhara magazine
Articles on this magazine and its publisher have been nominated for deletion, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Bukhara_magazine and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ali Dehbashi and and some attention from people who might know how to evaluate them would be helpful. DGG (talk) 00:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Nur Ali Elahi and Hajj Nematollah
(Cross-posted to WikiProject Kurdistan) I've added this project's banner to Talk:Nur Ali Elahi and Talk:Hajj Nematollah. There is currently a dispute as to whether the former article should be (re)named "Ostad Elahi". I invite anyone knowledgeable about the subject (and, perhaps, with boundless mental energy) to weigh in at Talk:Nur Ali Elahi#Article Name. As for the second article, there's not really a dispute, but it faces a similar issue. I'm not knowledgeable about either subject, just trying to help straighten this out. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Military history task forces
Hi, I want to suggest making two new task force in Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history. One of them about Persian military history before Islamic era and the other one about Iranian military history since establishment of Safavid dynasty. There is another task force which covers wars between 650CE to 1500CE. Do you support this idea.--Seyyed(t-c) 05:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
We can also make just one task force like Indian military history. Former suggestion is based on period and the later one on nations and region. --Seyyed(t-c) 05:45, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
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- That looks like a very complicated thing. But I am sure it is good to start it and eventually it will be pick up and hopefully some expert will be found in the area. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 22:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] kermanshahi-irani
is there any iranian member here on wikipedia who is fom iran and coms fromthe province of kermanshah in iran and if there is by any chance such a user who is it for i seek a user who is from kermanshah becuz i wanna discuss some things with someone from kermanshah and wanna ask some things. Shojaijekhi (talk) 20:07, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Gorgon
What does Gorgon refer to in the Persian sense? Chris (クリス) (talk) 17:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- in what sense of the word Gorgon do you mean, if it is regarding the stories in antiquity, the Greeks along with the Oracle of Delphi states that the Persians are descended from blood of Perseus who in turn killed the Gorgon, Medusa. Hope this helps. --ParthianPrince (talk) 20:41, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- In the sense of being a family or extended clan, I read about it but can't find a reference. Thank you so much for your help! Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 05:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- I wonder if this is it. Gorgan Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 01:11, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Shah Seyyed Ali Kazemi
Hi. I've come across an new(ish) article on Shah Seyyed Ali Kazemi, who was apparently a member of the Pahlavi dynasty. It seems a worthwhile article but it does need some citations for verification. Do you know of any suitable resources for this? Thanks. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Abu Musa & Greater and Lesser Tunbs
I need help. Lotfan komak konid!! There are some Arabs trying to edit things and make these islands look like that they are part of Arab-land. I can not go head to head with them all alone. Please help me out in cleaning these pages out of Arabic craps. Motshakeram. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Musa —Preceding unsigned comment added by Axamir (talk • contribs) 07:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Axamir, you are misrepresenting the discussion. No one is trying to make things look one way or another. The articles both say the islands are administered by Iran (and indeed, both articles carry the Iranian flag). They also note, accurately, that the islands are claimed by both Iran and UAE, and do not attempt to render judgement. But you have attempted to erase mention of the dispute[4][5][6], yet have not provided references to justify this. Again, the discussion is not about who actually controls the islands or even who is in the right; it's simply over the relatively minor issue of whether there is a competing claim. PRRfan (talk) 08:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Template:Iranian diaspora
Hi --- I'm the author of Iranians in Japan and am doing some other work on articles related to emigrant populations. Just wondering if you think it's a good idea to change the {{Iranian diaspora}} template into a footer rather than a sidebar, as has been done for {{Overseas Chinese}}, {{Ethnic Koreans}}, {{NRI-PIO}} (for Non-Resident Indians), etc. I put an example below, feel free to edit it (change the dividing groups, etc.) Cheers, cab (talk) 12:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
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- I can help with the diaspora here in southeast asia but in reality, the persians that are here in the Philippines are roughly estimated at 3500, Ive read a thesis concerning this--ParthianPrince (talk) 20:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Help request
Can somebody from the project look at the article Shah Ahmad Marashi. It says this shah ruled from 1726 to 1728 and succeeded Tahmasp II. However, the latter ruled until 1740. I'm confused and am starting to wonder whether the article is legit. Pichpich (talk) 20:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Ali Mahmoodi at AfD
Another editor has created an article about Ali Mahmoodi, identified as a former Vice Minister of Roads and Transportation of Iran. However, the article has no references and is currently at Articles for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ali Mahmoodi. If you can improve the article within the next few days, please do so. You may also want to comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ali Mahmoodi, especially if you can confirm (or if you are unable to confirm) the information in the article. --Eastmain (talk) 03:07, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Aid
it seems we might be needing aid from outside wikipedia, I am currently trying to convince some artists to help us with characters from antiquity, hoping they would liven up some of the pictures our ancestors were painted in. hope this works.
I hope to promulgate our culture in this way and insure, in my own little way that Persian history in itself is everlasting. --ParthianPrince (talk) 21:14, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] artists collaboration
Ive taken liberty into this by asking a few artist from different websites to help us with portraits of our the men and women who shaped our history. Ill try to add pictures once I get to iran again. --ParthianPrince (talk) 06:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] translation request
For Iran Scout Organization, would you please translate:
- Fereshtegan-e Pishahange Īrān into Farsi text?
- I still need this one, and every time I try to type it in, the Wikipedia reverses the order of the letters, can anyone help? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 20:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
- احيای مجدد سازمان پيش آهنگی در سال 1382 توسط پور مهر محسن زنجانی برای دريافت اطلاعات بيشتر به سايتهای زيرمراجعه فرمائيد into English text?
Thank you so much! Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:04, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Iranian National Heroes
Hi.I am gonna write an article on this topic and i have a problem. I don't know what to concentrate on?please help me,Bbadree (talk) 22:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Are Kukuli and Lenjān the same place?
Are Kukuli, located between Esfahan and Shiraz, and Lenjān near Isfahan the same place? Chesdovi (talk) 21:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] please create this template in Farsi
{{Copy to Wikimedia Commons}} Thanks! Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:39, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Sassanid Empire
Sassanid Empire has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 05:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Assyria (Persian province)
I have been working on this article for a while now and I believe its ready to pass good article criteria. However, there is a problem in naming the article. An admin got involved in an move-war and now we are at its current title. I have demostrated how its current title is not right in Talk:Persian_Mesopotamia#THIRD_OPINION and Talk:Persian_Mesopotamia#Requested_move. I would like the Iranian WikiProject members to give their opinion on the issue. Thanks for all you guys's time. Chaldean (talk) 20:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Iran in the Dutch Empire
Hello everyone! There is a discussion at Talk:Dutch Empire#Request For Comment: Map, because user Red4tribe has made a map of the Dutch Empire (Image:Dutch Empire 4.png) that includes significative parts of Iran. Would you like to comment? Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 15:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
New Map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dutch_Empire_new.PNG http://www.colonialvoyage.com/ square=tradingpost (Red4tribe (talk) 16:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC))
- Still OR, POV and unsourced (yours is not not a credible source). Please discuss stuff at Talk:Dutch Empire#Request For Comment: Map. This was just a request for comment, not a discussion. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 16:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
http://www.colonialvoyage.com/
http://www.colonialvoyage.com/biblioDAfrica.html (credible source) (Red4tribe (talk) 16:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC))
- That seems to be citing
Floor, Willem "Dutch-Persian relations" In: "Encyclopeadia Iranica" Bibliotheca Persica Press, Center for Iranian Studies, Columbia University, New York.
Online version of that entry which does not mention any territorial holdings of the Dutch Empire in Iran, as far as I can tell. --Wikiacc (¶) 20:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Persian script needed
- Dayereh Badagnani (talk) 19:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- Fereshtegan-e Pishahange Īrān Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 20:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Need assistance at Lute
Are there any active members of this project? Requests for assistance over a period of weeks appear to be going unanswered.
This text appears at the article Lute:
| “ | The words "lute" and "oud" may have derived from Arabic al‘ud (العود; literally "the wood"), though recent research by Eckhard Neubauer suggests that ‘ud may simply be an Arabized version of the Persian name rud, which meant "string," "stringed instrument," or "lute." | ” |
Is it correct, and, if so, what is the Persian spelling and etymology for "rud"? Badagnani (talk) 02:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Peer review:Roman-Persian Wars
Please check here and add your viewpoint about Roman-Persian Wars.--Seyyed(t-c) 02:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Draft Guidelines for Lists of companies by country - Feedback Requested
Within WikiProject Companies I am trying to establish guidelines for all Lists of companies by country, the implementation of which would hopefully ensure a minimum quality standard and level of consistency across all of these related but currently disparate articles. The ultimate goal is the improvement of these articles to Featured List status. As a WikiProject that currently has one of these lists within your scope, I would really appreciate your feedback! You can find the draft guidelines here. Thanks for your help as we look to build consensus and improve Wikipedia! - Richc80 (talk) 21:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Ali Mardan Khan
Hi. Could someone please review this article, and read my comments on the talk page - I don't know if it's me who's confused, or the articles ! Thanks :-) CultureDrone (talk) 08:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
