Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive19

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Intermediate hockey

In 1984 Intermediate hockey was merged with Senior hockey by Hockey Canada, except in Ontario when where it happened in 1986. What was the age minimum and limit for intermediate?

Also, does any one have any info on the Hardy Cup? Hockey Canada doesn't know anything about it and the HHOF didn't answer my e-mail. I know it was the national championship... but I have no clue who has won it or when it was retired. DMighton (talk) 02:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know anything about intermediate hockey? DMighton (talk) 03:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't know much, but I found this photo on google. Flibirigit (talk) 08:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks J. I don't get it. Intermediate A hockey for the longest time was considered on par with Major Junior and Senior AAA and there used to be tons of tradition from what I can tell... even a challenge cup between Ontario Sr. and Int. Champions every fall... but I can barely find anything at all... not even the specific age bracket. DMighton (talk) 11:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
The intermediate was originally for teams at less than 'elite' level. It was not an age group division. It was adult, but juniors could play for the teams, just like juniors could play for seniors. This goes back before 1900. To compete for the Stanley Cup or Allan Cup, a team had to be intermediate, then could be 'promoted' to senior status after winning an intermediate title. Because senior teams are not at the standard that they were, there is no need for intermediate. It's pretty well all at the old intermediate level. Alaney2k (talk) 00:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I see. I know that in 1983 OHA Sr. A was merged with Major Int. A and in 1986 they were split into Senior AAA and Senior A... Int B was divided between Sr. A and Sr. B... and Int. C made the foundation for Sr. B. Senior AAA folded in 1987 and never returned until 2002. By 1993, there was only Sr. A in the OHA as most of the Sr. B teams had jumped to the WOAA. The only team that remains from that era in the OHA is the Petrolia Squires, who since 1970 have only sat out one season. DMighton (talk) 01:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Now, if I could only find out who all the Hardy Cup champions were. lol. DMighton (talk) 01:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

AMP Energy NHL Winter Classic

I have been been working hard on AMP Energy NHL Winter Classic, along with a couple others, and I think it has enough to be a candidate for a good article, so I would like to have some other members look at it, and possibly get a "peer review" to start the process in motion. Any constructive suggestions welcome, either on its talk page, my talk page, or here. Thanks! -- bmitchelf•T•F 02:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Just quickly looked at it, and right away I noticed that reference #7, regarding the singing of the Canadian anthem, is a broken link and doesn't go anywhere. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I've commented on the article talk page. --Krm500 (talk) 04:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Ice Hockey Player

Could someone add an image caption field to this infobox? I think it'd be a very useful optional field.-Wafulz (talk) 15:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It has been asked twice on the talk page of the template but it still needs to be done. Through {{editprotected}} too, unless an admin edits it. I have not checked how the code is supposed to look. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 18:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure really how to add this or I would do it for you. That being said I am not really sure how necessary it would be as the picture in the player box should always be of the actual player (ideally by themself) so not sure what more a caption could explain that would be relevant to the page. -Djsasso (talk) 22:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Well I just tried to add it and tested it in my sandbox and the caption did not show up. I don't know if I coded it wrong. (didn't look wrong) or if maybe you can't put captions on images that are inside tables. -Djsasso (talk) 22:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I found the syntax, and have made the change. Though I have to agree that I find a caption in that spot to be of dubious value. Add |caption = foo to any templates you want to add text. Resolute 22:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
It's not working. Pages without images have a parser function displayed on them. (→Zachary) 23:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
There I fixed it by the looks of it. And changed the name of the variable to image_caption so that it matches with image_size. -Djsasso (talk) 23:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I just tested that it worked when there is an image. Hadn't thought to check how it would affect the box when there is no image. Resolute 03:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems to work except when the image_size field is left blank. If I remove the field, it's fine. If I leave the field in but don't put in a value, it screws up.-Wafulz (talk) 05:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Team player categories

Skudrafan, Djsasso and I have been having some discussions about several of our present categories. One specific aspect of this that has come out of a CfM for Kalamazoo Wings players is how to handle a frnachise that changes names, but does not relocate. i.e.: the Anaheim Ducks. Presently, there are two categories: Category:Mighty Ducks of Anaheim players and Category:Anaheim Ducks players. A similar situation exists for the Detroit Cougars/Falcons/Red Wings. Ideally, I would support a merger of these categories, given that it is the same iteration of the same franchise, with category redirects created for the old team names, as Djsasso and I have agreed on the CfM referenced above. However, before I throw it up at CfD, I wanted to bring it here. Resolute 19:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

If/When you do it make sure you also do Toronto. -Djsasso (talk) 19:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I would merge them, just put a note on the actual category page. For example if the category is Detroit Red Wings players, just say a note on the page that it also includes players who played for the Falcons and Cougars. Croat Canuck Talk 21:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

USHL lists

I just discovered USHL Players Drafted by NHL, USHL Alumni in NCAA, and USHL Alumni in NHL. Are these lists worth developing, or are they superfluous? I lean toward the latter. Skudrafan1 (talk) 20:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

NOTE There is a related AFD from December 4, 2007. Flibirigit (talk) 20:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about the alumni in the NCAA article, but I think for a development league, a list of players that moved onto the NHL makes sense. List of drafted Frölunda HC players would be comparable, and is a featured list. I'd probably pare the list down to just those that made the NHL, and rename it List of USHL alumni to play in the NHL. (possibly expanding the acronyms). Resolute 15:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
  1. "USHL Players Drafted by NHL" has been moved to List of USHL players drafted by NHL teams. We should keep and develop this list.
  2. "USHL Alumni in NHL" was just moved to List of USHL alumni to play in the NHL.
  3. I put a "PROD" on USHL Alumni in NCAA. It is an extensive list with questionable notability. Might be better split up and added to each individual team? Flibirigit (talk) 16:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Tool of the day

I was looking thru recent changes and came across this... User talk:Chaz987654321.... banned 29 years for spamming. If only I could block telemarketers for that long. Flibirigit (talk) 18:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't you have a do-not-call register in Canada? :) --Krm500 (talk) 19:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but it only lasts five years. Flibirigit (talk) 19:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The longest a block can go is 30 years without it being indefinite. :D Maxim(talk) 21:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I've made a note on my calendar to look that guy up in 29 years, LOL... if I'm still on Wikipedia. Flibirigit (talk) 21:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

San Diego Gulls

I have proposed to demerge the San Diego Gulls article. Any comments at Talk:San Diego Gulls are welcome. Flibirigit (talk) 21:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Userspace and Usernames pretending to be articles

I have recently come across two users... User:2004 World U-17 Hockey Challenge and User:2007-08 Bozeman Icedogs season. Um... I'm not sure what think... any feedback? Flibirigit (talk) 01:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Both "users" seem to have User:69.144.85.125 in common. Flibirigit (talk) 01:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
So instead of creating sandboxes he created new accounts? --Krm500 (talk) 01:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that looks like what happened. Why? I don't know. Flibirigit (talk) 01:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's another User:Bozeman Icedogs Roster so called "user". Flibirigit (talk) 01:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Yet, none of these "users" appear on the Bozeman Icedogs article itself. Flibirigit (talk) 01:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Pages show up on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents and Wikipedia:WikiProject Spam/COIReports/2008, Feb 3. What to do? Flibirigit (talk) 02:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

There's even more! User:1974-75 Quebec Nordiques season What the hockey puck..... Flibirigit (talk) 02:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I asked about them all this morning (my time) at WP:ANI#Oddly-named accounts maintaining legitimate articles in user space. Almost no response. Were similar pages deleted or something? —Wknight94 (talk) 02:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Pages similar to 2007-08 "junior ice hockey team" season have been deleted by consensus. However 1974-75 Quebec Nordiques season and World U-17 Hockey Challenge are article that would be kept. Flibirigit (talk) 02:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Well I'd say, if you think they would make legitimate articles, just move them into article space and fix the incoming links (we shouldn't have links from template space to user space). And keep trying to contact the user or users (I'm guessing it's one person). I'm confused but there's really nothing bad going on. It's content - it's just being added in a peculiar way. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:10, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I just did move "User:List of American national hockey team rosters" into an article at List of United States national hockey team rosters. Please let us know if you find anything else! Flibirigit (talk) 03:15, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I did a move instead of cutting and pasting. That way, the original author gets proper attribution. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The attribution with a move is a good idea, but I don't think redirecting a user page to mainspace is a good idea. Flibirigit (talk) 03:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Sure, go ahead and fix that but leave a note so the person knows where their page went. (Similar to what you did but with the move tab to do the actual move). —Wknight94 (talk) 04:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

There's also User:West All-Stars Roster Thricecube (talk) 23:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Mid-season stats update template

Could someone update the text on this template? Is this some sort of 'I'm telling on you' kind of template? Alaney2k (talk) 19:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not an I'm telling on you template. It's an explaining why I just reverted you template. -Djsasso (talk) 19:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Richard Zedník

You guys might want to watchlist this for a few days until things settle down. The page was semi-protected for a bit yesterday, but is currently unprotected. - Rjd0060 (talk) 15:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Neck? I'd say it was a cut to the throat. --Krm500 (talk) 16:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I think neck is correct. Throat is for Malarchuk's one. --necronudist (talk) 18:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Just visited the Panthers site and they say neck laceration, I fold. --Krm500 (talk) 18:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
You can just say carotid artery. Glad he's stable, that was gruesome. -RiverHockey (talk) 01:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Btw, the Malarchuk incident is mentioned in the text, how about mentioning Bengt Åkerblom as well? He died of an identical injury, after a teammate was hit and his skate cut which swung up in the air cut Åkerblom's throat. --Krm500 (talk) 01:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The Åkerblom details are mentioned at the bottom of this article which is also linked from Malarchuk's article. Useful perhaps? Also to List of ice hockey players who died during their playing career? --Bamsefar75 (talk) 05:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Never heard anything about Åkerblom's incident... is there a video anywhere? --necronudist (talk) 12:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Search Youtube, some videos from the news the following day, but not of the incident. The incident should definitely be mentioned on the List. --Krm500 (talk) 16:06, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I added Åkerblom to the list, but the reference is weak. Most of the info I could find on the web are blogs, forum postings and brief mentions in news articles. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 03:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate Categories

There are duplicate categories concerning International Hockey League (1929-1936), one being Category:International Hockey League (1929-1936) players, the other being Category:International Hockey League (1929-36) players. The prior is a little better organized. -RiverHockey (talk) 21:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Already been fixed. Dates should have the full year 1936 so the duplicate was deleted. -Djsasso (talk) 21:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Featured picture

I'm featured!
I'm featured!

I've been thinking for a while about submitting Image:Wgretz.jpg for featured picture candidacy. I submitted it for a picture peer review but it didn't gain any major support so I'm not quite sure what to do. I think it's a high quality shot of Gretzky, and one of the best hockey images on Wikipedia. One user was worried that people would object since he wasn't in his prime during his stint with the Rangers. I recently failed with another candidate so I'm not sure if I should submit this one or not, what do you other think about it? --Krm500 (talk) 18:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

While I admit to not having any experience with featured pictures, I would say it couldn't hurt to try and see what happens. If it passes, all the better for us. If not, well it was worth a try. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
It was submitted by a user from the peer review. The candidate page can be found here. --Krm500 (talk) 20:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It passed! --Krm500 (talk) 15:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge Request

Ching Johnson and Ivan Wilfred 'Ching' Johnson both exist for the same player. Which article should exist? The Ivan Wilfred article talks about his minor league career more than the Ching Johnston article, while the Ching Johnson article talks about his NHL career more. Thanks. Patken4 (talk) 18:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The NHL career is more notable - The Ivan Johnson article should be merged into the Ching Johnson article. Also 'Ching Johnson' is the more common usage. GoodDay (talk) 18:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I am going to be bold and take care of this. I do not believe this would be a controversial move. I am working on a rewrite right now and plan on inserting the rewrite on the Ivan Wilfred page, and making the Ching page a redirect to the Ivan Wilfred page. Also, I have noticed that there are some playing discrepencies between the articles. based on what I can see, Ching did not play for Edmonton in 1953-54, that had to be Earl Johnson who also had the nickname Ching. There also seems to have been another Ivan Ching Johnson who played hockey, but not at the NHL level that seems to get confused with this one. You would think that if this Ching Johnson had of played for Edmonton in 1953-54 that his bio on Legends of hockey would have mentioned it for his induction into the HHOF in 1958. -Pparazorback (talk) 19:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Btw - the reason for my choice of using the Ivan Wilfred page is because that is his full name. Using that out of respect for him. The HHOF lists him by his given name Ivan as well. -Pparazorback (talk) 19:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Merger and re-write complete. -Pparazorback (talk) 20:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Elmer Ferguson Memorial Award

Hey guys, I'm looking for help with the Elmer Ferguson Memorial Award. I think we can make this into a featured list or possible good article. I believe it's important since all of its recipients gain entry into the Hockey Hall of Fame. We've spent so much time fixing up NHL trophies and the HOF itself, this should be included. Flibirigit (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to User:Scorpion0422 for creating Category:Elmer Ferguson Award winners. I've added a few members. Flibirigit (talk) 22:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

If anyone takes that category to CfD, I'd be surprised if it passes. There is a general sentiment that winning an award is typically non-defining for an individual. Certainly in this case, I doubt any of the members of this category are notable for being Ferguson Award winners. Resolute 22:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Was going to mention the same thing since categories for the more major awards have been toasted in the past. -Djsasso (talk) 22:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I created the category because many of the winners were in the Hockey Hall of Fame category and as far as I can tell, the award winners aren't full members. So, I created the category so winners can go there instead. -- Scorpion0422 22:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeah they aren't full members unless they got in through a full nom, so that does make sense. -Djsasso (talk) 22:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Considering the article for Tom Fitzgerald (Reporter) says he graduated college in 1989, I doubt it. :) Skudrafan1 (talk) 01:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protection request

I think we should semi-protect the {{Pro hockey team}} and {{Hockey team}} tempates as they are highly used infoboxes. Any request for edits by anonymous or new users can be made on the respective talk pages. I've had to revert and fix up numerous edits to display these templates properly on team pages. Flibirigit (talk) 18:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I should have suggested {{NHL Team}} also. Thanks, djsasso. Flibirigit (talk) 22:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
No problem. -Djsasso (talk) 22:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

John Arnold (ice hockey)

Do players such as this really merit a wiki entry? Keep in mind by using the pro rule we could thereby make a page for every ECHL and AHL player... -RiverHockey (talk) 22:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

It was this arguement that led to the creation of our notability standards. We hope people follow them when creating articles and thus avoid this issue. But in the end it comes down to WP:N says all professionals are notable and thus it over rules our criteria. Every once in awhile someone manages to sneak one through for delete though. -Djsasso (talk) 22:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
ECHL is a professional league? --Krm500 (talk) 00:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Indeed it is. It's at a level below the AHL, and above the CHL and new IHL if memory serves. Most NHL teams have affiliations with an ECHL team, which is where the AHL teams send their players. Using the terms of baseball, it would be classified as 'AA', with the AHL 'AAA' and NHL being the of of course. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Yup, most if not all NHL teams affiliate with an ECHL team. Basically the ECHL team is the farm team of their AHL team. Basically they are the lowest level of professional players that realistically have a shot at the NHL. The CHL and IHL are mostly has beens or never will bes. Whereas the ECHL still mostly has prospects hoping to make it. -Djsasso (talk) 03:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Sort of Swedish Division 1, where Alexander Edler and Fabian Brunnström emerged from then? --Krm500 (talk) 15:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, unless you are a goalie it is a little more rare to ever make the NHL on a permanent basis once you have been down to the ECHL level, but it is not out of the question. Players that tend to have played there are usually more of the grinder type than the gifted scorer. Or kids who go overlooked in the draft and had to work their way up through the different leagues as a free agent. -Djsasso (talk) 15:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. Many ECHL alumni have gone onto the NHL, but there aren't many big names in that list. For the most part, the every day players were either goalies or goons. Resolute 15:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Junior Player Notability

Seems at the current Mickey Renaud afd that one of the main opponents of the afd is now trying to bring up every previous afd to for a junior player to Deletion Review. So your comments either way on the issue are more than appreciated at the afd and drvs. -Djsasso (talk) 20:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Ice Hockey Player

There is some flaw right now with Template:Infobox Ice Hockey Player making the player's weight have a strange line break before "kg." I can't fix it because it is protected, so could an admin check it out for me? Thanks! -- bmitchelf•T•F 23:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

that template hasn't been edited in two weeks. Has the issue been going on that long? It may be an issue with {{Convert}}, which does the weight conversions, but the code for that one is way beyond my ability. Resolute 00:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Noticed it as well, didn't see it yesterday. --Krm500 (talk) 00:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I see it also. I checked the recent history of the templates connected to the infobox, but the only recent changes are the additions of the infobox that says "protected". Doesnt make sense. Someone else have a look. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 06:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Yep I think it's a problem with {{Convert}}: Using {{convert|{{{weight_lbs|{{{weight_lb|200}}}}}}|lb|kg stlb|lk=on|abbr=on}} which is copied direct from the code (I've added the 200) of the {{Ice Hockey Player}} gives 200 lb (91 kg/14 st 4 lb) (strangely though it seems to work when I tried it in the Sandbox --JD554 (talk) 09:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Resolved.
A good faith protection edit that had a small typo (a new line) in it. Isn't it ironic! It was being protected so errors like that would not occur. See Template_talk:Convert#Weight_conversions for details. You shouldn't ever have another problem again. Go WINGS!! —MJCdetroit (yak) 20:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Move help

I tried to move the article Allsvenskan (ice hockey) to HockeyAllsvenskan which is a redirect to the Allsvenskan (ice hockey) article. But it didn't work, probably since the page already exist as a redirect. Could an administrator please help me move it? --Krm500 (talk) 00:34, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I've added a G6 speedy tag (housekeeping) to the redirect page. Should hopefully be gone soon.--JD554 (talk) 09:41, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Should Template:Allsvenskan (ice hockey) be moved too? I have updated the headings of it. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 17:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Ron Baechle

How the heck did Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ron Baechle pass an afd? Flibirigit (talk) 07:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow. But unfortunately he meets the criteria of WP:N#General notability guideline. By having three separate articles about him in newspapers covers that (although I notice that they aren't all cited, perhaps a WP:V getout?). I'd suggest the article should be merged into the St. Louis Blues (hockey), but I'm not sure how to go about it. --JD554 (talk) 09:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
He already has been merged into the Blues article. Everything in this sub-stub is stated in the "Traditions" section. I'm going to redirect his article to St. Louis Blues (hockey) for now, but if anyone feels the desire to build a proper bio article, they are more than welcome. Resolute 15:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Team season vandal is back

Just indef blocked IceManMan (talk · contribs) for the same nonsense that has led to about a dozen other indef blocks already. Keep an eye out on the team season articles and revert as necessary. Resolute 02:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Can you name any other accounts? Then we can get a checkuser to block the IP. Maxim(talk) 16:50, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Look at Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of IceManNJD. 10 others. --Michael Greiner 01:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation (ice hockey)

I know that as a project we tend to prefer disambiguating by (ice hockey) rather than by (hockey). Having said that, should St. Louis Blues (hockey) become St. Louis Blues (ice hockey) by convention? Flibirigit (talk) 04:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I wish St. Louis Blues (hockey) really looked like St. Louis Blues. =( The hockey article is most likely what 80% of the people who want to view or edit "St. Louis Blues" would go to. Thricecube (talk) 04:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I suppose you could again propose moving St. Louis Blues to St. Louis Blues (disambiguation) and then moving the hockey team to St. Louis Blues and see if consensus has changed on that point. However, making such an article move would require a considerable amount of times fixing the incoming links. Resolute 05:21, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily. If such a move were to happen, one could simply make St. Louis Blues (hockey) a redirect to St. Louis Blues, making everything that much simpler. Kaiser matias (talk) 05:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Austrian Hockey League

User:Virenque is insisting we move Austrian Hockey League to EBEL hockey league. Here's a problem with that. EBEL is an acronym for Erste Banke Eishockey Liga, which would make the redundant article title of "Erste Banke Eishockey Liga hockey league." I've opened at discussion at Talk:EBEL hockey league. Flibirigit (talk) 20:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Team player lists yet again

So I'm busy trying to get List of Tampa Bay Lightning players to become a FL and have come across a few issues that I wouldn't mind getting some other opinions for. The following is what is stalling the process, anything in brackets is for clarification here:

  • The source which says it may be inaccurate - what in the list relies on it? (referring to hockeyd.com here)
  • Real names should be used, not names without diacritics. Can you explain why you would not use the real name? (Also in connection with this, making the list sortable)
  • Goaltenders table also has a mixture of — and 0 in the T and OTL columns. (Rather self-explanitory)
  • Colouring of current team members who have won the Stanley Cup.
    • The Stanley Cup winners are already coloured. Do you want current players to be coloured?

As it is, the colouring issue is the bigger of the few right now, though all of these are part of it as well. Any comments about this would be great, because I want to start focusing my energy on other things instead of picking through a list. Kaiser matias (talk) 06:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Per this WikiProject's guideline: The diacritics must be hidden, as the Lightning list is an NHL list. GoodDay (talk) 20:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Wider consensus would overrule WP:HOCKEY though. I've addressed the usage of zeros and dashes for T/OTL on goalie stats, I hope. On colouring, I see three ways we can deal with it:
    • 1. Just not colour SC winners, only active players or vice versa.
    • 2. Use bold text instead of colour for active players, leave SC winners alone.
    • 3. Colour individual columns only. i.e.: Highlight name only for active players, and higlight the notes section only for SC winners.
On my personal view, if we aren't going to highlight other award winners, then I see no reason not to highlight SC winners, though highlighting award winners, and just bolding active players works too. Resolute 23:13, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Wider consensus would overrule WP:HOCKEY? I hope it doesn't come to that. Though I do admit to having taken part in recent discussions at MOS (use English). GoodDay (talk) 23:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that we don't highlight SC winners. It keeps things simplified. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:02, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Senior teams representing Canada

Hey guys, I need some input at Talk:Ice Hockey World Championships#IIHF World Champions if any of you have detailed information. Thanks. Flibirigit (talk) 17:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject Boston Bruins

Has anyone else noticed Wikipedia:WikiProject Boston Bruins? I'm going to message the user about it.-Wafulz (talk) 20:54, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah this should probably just be a task force within the hockey project like we have with the New Jersey Devils. An NHL wikiproject was recently deleted for this reason. -Djsasso (talk) 21:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Hmm I can't even see where he put it up at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals. -Djsasso (talk) 21:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Teemu Selanne fan club?

Throughout my time hiding diacritics on all kinds of NHL articles, I've found that the name Teemu Selanne gets diacritized the most often. Is there a 'Selanne fan club' out there, that's is responsible? GoodDay (talk) 17:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

As has been said many times, many ways....you should have just left the diacritics alone a long time ago. They will continually be changed one way or the other no matter what we as a project decide. -Djsasso (talk) 17:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Nah! As long as the Project calls for them to be hidden? I shall hide them. GoodDay (talk) 17:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe what I am getting at is to just not stress about it. -Djsasso (talk) 17:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

It's OK. I just like to hear (or see) myself complain, once in awhile. GoodDay (talk) 17:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

You remind me of someone on the Rangers blog I frequent who goes by the handle "Nasty 1". The reason for this is that Selanne is one of the most popular players with diacritics in his name. I agree, don't stress over it too much; I go through hockey player pages to remove bogus nicknames. -- bmitchelf•T•F 18:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Heh...are you saying that GoodDay is nasty? :-) -- Gmatsuda (talk) 20:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Think of me as 'Pacman' & the diacritics as thoses little dots that I eat up. The ghosts are those big diacritics (those 'squares'). GoodDay (talk) 14:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Ȳöů ḍôп'т Г!₭ẽ ǂĥΣɱ Λəгγ мū₵ћ, ɾιɠɧʈ ĜʘØ₫₯åψ ¿ --Krm500 (talk) 16:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Arrrrgghhh, my eyes. Have mercy on me. GoodDay (talk) 16:35, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Haha, I love this conversation. Are accents and lines like fruit and ghosts that Pacman eats up, since umlauts are dots? By the way, it's a good thing to be like the "Nasty 1" because you are funny and nasty. -- bmitchelf•T•F 17:42, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

St. Louis Blues (hockey) (again)

The fight over the Blues captains list has begun, again. GoodDay (talk) 20:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

A new 'interesting' twist. The Blues named 'Eric Brewer' their 19th captain. This would support having 'Jim Roberts' & 'Garry Unger' in the list. GoodDay (talk) 19:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

It's already fixed, there is no need to discuss this on multiple talk pages. -Djsasso (talk) 19:42, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Admin help needed for cut and paste repair.

Requesting an admin from the group please have a look at OB I bajnokság, and repair its history. Thanks. Flibirigit (talk) 00:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

National ice hockey team rosters

I wasn't sure where to categorize National ice hockey team rosters, so I've created Category:National ice hockey team rosters as a subcategory of Category:National ice hockey teams. Does anyone have an alternative? Flibirigit (talk) 00:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

British Ice Hockey

New editor User:Phil edwards9 (talk,contributions) is making a real mess of British ice hockey. Some additions are blatant copyvios. I don't have time at the moment to go over his contributions. Could someone please check up on this. Flibirigit (talk) 01:29, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Warofdreams has taken care of this. Flibirigit (talk) 18:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

David Clarkson

David Clarkson (ice hockey) has been vandalized six times the past day. Can an admin please look at this? Thanks. Thricecube (talk) 16:43, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks like it is one person. Not a big deal. Just revert as necessary until they get bored. I've watchlisted the article as well. Resolute 00:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Ottawa Senators split

I've suggested that part of the Team History, including expansion drive be put in a separate article. I've added a discussion at Talk:Ottawa Senators. Size of the article is about 80k, getting a bit big. If I haven't followed procedure correctly, please forgive. Alaney2k (talk) 22:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Lame edit war...

Possible lame edit war starting at Colorado Rockies (NHL). Difference of opinion on relevant information. Flibirigit (talk) 20:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Yer both at 3 reverts, so I would stop there. But I agree with your side of the issue. -Djsasso (talk) 20:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I've explained in detail on Talk:Colorado Rockies (NHL). I hope this isn't going to escalate. Flibirigit (talk) 20:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Weird TOC link

So at 2007-08 Pittsburgh Penguins season, in the table of contents, when you click "Regular Season" under Player Stats for Skaters, it jumps down to Regular Season standings. Any clue how to correct this? Grsz11 (talk) 02:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It is working fine for me. -Djsasso (talk) 02:26, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Did you check after I changed it? Oh well, was pretty odd. Grsz11 (talk) 02:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Summit Series

Summit Series has been proposed to be renamed 1972 Summit Series. 132.205.44.5 (talk) 02:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

America West Hockey League

The AWHL article is a real mess. Does anyone know enough about the league to clean it up? Flibirigit (talk) 09:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Adding importance to assessment?

I've been thinking about adding an importance field to the assessment template. That way there would be an idea of what articles are more important to work on. I'm suggesting having Top, High, Mid, and Low as ratings. Top would be something like ice hockey, High would be Jacques Plante, Mid would be Mats Sundin and Low would be Pete Muldoon (all examples). Maxim(talk) 18:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind it, but we'd need some sort of definitive criteria.-Wafulz (talk) 20:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I have never liked the importance tag for projects. I find it is far to subjective, because one article is more important to one person than another person. Personally I don't see a need for it. I wouldn't be against it however. -Djsasso (talk) 22:53, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

List of NHL players

Ok, in my ongoing (and probably futile) attempt at converting the List of NHL players lists to bigger and better things, I plan on starting in on the alphabetical lists again, probably starting at a list that hasn't been turned into anything beyond a mere list, and moving it to the format now at List of NHL players: Z. However, I noticed that that list uses country of birth flags under the nationality heading. So, question I have before I get too far in, is are we using country of birth for that column, or are we using nationality? I'd like to keep it consistent. Resolute 19:56, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

My guess is that we are going by country of birth, unless they have played internationally for another country like we do for infoboxes etc. -Djsasso (talk) 20:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
True, but any player in the NHL now who was born in the USSR now represents a different republic internationally, i.e.: Russia, Ukraine, etc. Resolute 20:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
This is true, but again I would still use USSR for those players who haven't played internationally and their new one for those that have. Personally I prefer always using birth country but concensus has clearly been against that in the past. -Djsasso (talk) 20:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I think we need to go for either country of birth at the time or current nationality. No adding a different flag for someone who's played for a different country internationally. As I see it, that is rather POV as we are effectively classifying some players as being from one country while others are from a different one. It would make sense just to list country of birth as there's no arguing that. So if a players was born in Moscow in the 1970's they would be listed as being from the Soviet Union, but any born after 1991 (when we get there), would be Russian. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

To clarify what I said, since I don't like how it sounded: We should either continue with the system we have (listing players by nationality, which would mean using modern Soviet republics, etc.) or list strictly by country of birth, which leads to issues like Olaf Kolzig being South African or Dany Heatley becoming German. I think we should keep the status quo, after all if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Kaiser matias (talk) 06:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Does that mean that Robert Nilsson and Alexander Steen will be listed as Canadians? --Krm500 (talk) 02:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't see why they wouldn't, in alot of cases that how we list other lesser known players born outside Canada or inside Canada as the case may be. -Djsasso (talk) 16:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Wouldn't Steen and Nilsson be listed as Swedish since they have played for Team Sweden? --Bamsefar75 (talk) 17:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I wouldn't characterize Nilsson and Steen as Canadian any more than I would characterize the Regehr brothers as being Brazillian and Indonesian. I think I'll stick to nationality. Resolute 17:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
There we go. :) Back to the beginning. ;) -Djsasso (talk) 20:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Willie O'Ree vandalism

The Willie O'Ree articles seems to have constant vandalism from anonymous IPs lately. Maybe because it was Black History Month? I think we should semi-protect this page. Flibirigit (talk) 18:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

--necronudist (talk) 14:24, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Diacritics Alert

So much for our agreement at this WikiProject. User: Elrith, is adding diacritics to NHL related articles. GoodDay (talk) 00:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, that guy. I've tried explaining the "rules" to him before, but he was stubborn and didn't listen. He just kept reverting my edits to add the diacritics again, although wouldn't violate the WP:3RR if I remember correctly, but it was a while ago so I don't remember it too well. BsroiaadnTalk 06:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Just so long as you remember ALL player pages keep them. The only articles we agree to remove them off of was NHL specific topics. So one player's page having a player linked on it whose name has diacritics...those diacritics stay.I noticed a few of you reverting those edits of his as well and those are valid. -Djsasso (talk) 15:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Elrith has informed me, he has no intentions of respecting the compromise. Djssaso & Krm500 refuse to tweak the rules & allow me to 'hide' the diacritics on the NHL team articles 'current rosters'. I use to have fun on these Ice Hockey articles, but not anymore. The pro-diacritics editors (all over English Wikipedia), have major ownership issues concerning the 'English alphabet' & 'English language'. Anyways, you've broken me - I'm cleaning out my watchlist of hockey articles & revoking my WikiProject membership. I tired of being bullied. Cheers. GoodDay (talk) 15:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't recall ever saying you couldn't hide the diacritics of players names on NHL rosters....thats what the compromise was? -Djsasso (talk) 16:00, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Tweak the Project rules to allow the 'birth place' diacritics to be hidden? and we'll have a 50/50 split on the Hockey articles. Since you're choosing to be inflexible on those 'tiny' items on 30 articles out of thousands of articles on English Wikipedia? There's no hope of reasoning with you (pro-diacritics editors). GoodDay (talk) 16:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The city issue isn't mine to tweak, that's an entire wikipedia policy. -Djsasso (talk) 16:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, inflexible. GoodDay (talk) 16:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with being inflexible, again overall wiki policy trumps project policy. One could say you are the one being inflexible since its been you that constantly brings up diacritics. Me and Krm500 barely ever mention them. -Djsasso (talk) 16:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any valid point to keep diaretics on an English wikipedia. When names with foregin diaretics and accents are translated to English, the diaretics and accents become converted to normal lettering. My English keyboard contains zero diaretics on it so I will under no circumstances use them. Markus Naslund has the two dots above the "a" in his last name. I'm fine if people want to keep it on his page at very top, but I don't think the article should be redirected to a non-English version of his name. English is the only wikipedia that does this. If you take, for example, the Latvian version of his name, it doesn't get redirect to the Swedish spelling. Why would it? It's Latvian wikipedia, not Swedish wikipedia. So instead, his name is translated over to the Latvian translation of his name, which is Markuss Neslunds. Again, it is not redirected because they use the translation in their language. Why can't English wikipedia use the English translation? Save the Swedish way for the Swedish page. Thricecube (talk) 18:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Except that is not true, when you translate those words you do not simply remove diacritics. This is a misconception that most people on here that argue for removing them use. These are proper names and thus are not translated unless there is a English translation which is common ussage. However, just removing diacritics does not constitute a translation. Your example of Markus Naslund however, is correct because its a complete translation. Removing diacritics is not considered a translation. -Djsasso (talk) 19:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's not argue here. However much I may agree or disagree, this never gets us anywhere. Let's just stick to what the project rules on diacritics currently are (as well as having diacritics in town names, if wikipedia policy overrides project policy and if anyone can find it for confirmation...not saying it's not there, but it should be shown) and leave it at that. We have talked, and argued, about this many times and we've come to a compromise...I believe everyone agreed to this the last time. I do believe city names in North American team/league pages was agreed upon to be left out (as GoodDay said), but if wikipedia policy says otherwise we should abide by it. Elrith has been informed of the rules on diacritics in the past and has been informed recently as well, and has refused to go along with the rules time and time again, that's the point of this conversation. Is there any kind of action we can take against him for not following the project's guidlines? I believe he can continue to contribute positively (looking quickly at his profile, it seems he has). But, this doesn't mean he can break the rules, which he has explicity stated he will continue to do so. BsroiaadnTalk 06:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:V -- The NHL official website & the NHLPA official website, do not use diacritics in the players names or their birth cities. GoodDay (talk) 19:01, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
As was brought up to before, you can't source spelling in this maner. Because the webmaster will use whatever spelling seems natural to themselves and because likely their keyboard doesn't have the symbols so they don't likely take the time to spell it properly. -Djsasso (talk) 19:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Sure, but those are accepted biographies. Alaney2k (talk) 19:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Biographies with spelling errors in them. -Djsasso (talk) 19:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Biographies with spelling errors in them? That sorta sounds arrogant, to me. GoodDay (talk) 20:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 :-) But using other language's spellings in the face of -evidence- in the English language? Why? If the NHL and NHLPA agree, that should be good enough for us. :-) Alaney2k (talk) 19:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
The NHL doesn't make the rules of the English language. The English language uses diactritics in proper names unless there is an English translation like Munich (German spelling is München) for example. People who keep arguing that the English language doesn't use diactritics are incorrect. -Djsasso (talk) 20:02, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
For sure, but using another language's diacritics is an arbitrary decision. Just like whoever spelled Kiev did originally. I don't think it is correct that obscure places will use the native (IMO correct) spelling, but larger ones will. By accepting the foreign spelling, we are then introducing another convention, that of using other alphabet's characters when we don't really need to. We are introducing a conflict between the given biographies, and that on Wikipedia. It would seem that the more common/popular spelling is that of the NHL and NHLPA, mistakes notwithstanding. It just seems odd to use the player names as the NHL dishes out, but not the city names they give. Alaney2k (talk) 20:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't want to not have them on player names either, but to stop the constant fighting that goes on about diacritics, those who wanted them accepted this so that it wouldn't be debated constantly. As far as smaller places and bigger places using or not using translations. Not all towns/cities have translations. Usually its only the bigger cities that do. -Djsasso (talk) 20:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Give it up Al, ya haven't a chance. Come join the discussions at Wikipedia: Naming conventions (use English), if you're hoping for change. GoodDay (talk) 20:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

This is the place for talk in the Hockey area. I don't have any problem with the use of diacritics. I have a slavic background, in fact. It's that we don't have a way to figure out the pronunciation to transmit this to users. The average English reader will ignore the diacritics, making their use pointless and non-helpful. While I do like the use of what is the spelling that is friendly to the actual persons of the town, it's an arbitrary policy as is. Even the players names in their native alphabets is arbitrary somewhat. Look up Alexei Yashin. I do think that those people who are pushing the use of alternative alphabets don't realize the lack of knowledge about what those letters do. It's just not something that we think about or analyze. I ignore the diacritics myself and apply an English pronunciation. If I was speaking in Swedish or Czech (if it was possible for me to do so), I could figure it out. So, in the common usage, I am misspelling and mispronouncing these things. So, the original spelling with the native characters is not helpful, and I suspect that is the case for the average reader. Alaney2k (talk) 20:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh I fully expect that most average people just ignore them as well, which is why it just blows my mind that it seems to bother some people so much. Just ignore them if you don't like them, they don't make it any harder to read. Especially when they try to claim English doesn't use them. When clearly it does take a look at examples at List of English words with diacritics. -Djsasso (talk) 20:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Inflexible, to the end. GoodDay (talk) 20:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are. -Djsasso (talk) 20:48, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Inflexible, well who am I to judge? :-) I would disagree with Djsasso's last post. I do think it makes it harder to read. Especially in the case of limited browsers and browsers that speak the articles to those who cannot read. Where do you look up the pronunciation of several of these letters? Alaney2k (talk) 20:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I could see an issue with browsers that read things out to you, however, I don't know enough about them to know if they can't pronounce diacritics correctly. For all I know they could pronounce them correctly, I don't see why they couldn't. -Djsasso (talk) 20:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason why Dj & Krm (and their supporters) can't hand over fully the NHL articles to pro-English editors. GoodDay (talk) 20:55, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

There are many reasons, the spelling would be incorrect, and to some it would be an insult to spell their place of birth wrong. How would you like it if people spelled Canada wrong when refering to where you were from. I know I would be quite pissed off. Heck just think about the uproar that happened in Canada when they had the Canadian flag upside down during the World Series. That is the same sort of thing. We were flexible and gave you player names, you just want to keep pushing for more more more. -Djsasso (talk) 20:57, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

On the Swedish, Spanish, Czech, Japanese Wikipedia's etc, they can spell Canada, anyway the want. They can diacritize to their heart's content. On English Wikipedia? no way. Also the line 'it's spelt incorrectly' isn't helping this discussion - It's already known how we two groups view each others views (pro-English see the pro-dio's as arroganr & pro-dios see pro-English as ignorant). GoodDay (talk) 21:02, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

How many times do you need to be shown that the use of diacrtics are correct. That the English language does use them. They are not foreign characters as you keep pushing. -Djsasso (talk) 21:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Dj, you & the others (pro-dios) aren't ever gonna let us (pro-english) remove those diacritics, are you? GoodDay (talk) 21:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Most likely not because the use of them in English is correct. I love how you keep calling it pro-English as if diacritics are not used in English when they clearly are. -Djsasso (talk) 21:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I'll drop the topic here, then. Seeing as I'm just 'ignorant' & was mis-educated on the English alphabet. Again Al, we haven't a chance. GoodDay (talk) 21:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
You mean the Latin alphabet. ;) -Djsasso (talk) 21:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Did I say English? Stupid me, eh? GoodDay (talk) 21:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Why do you keep getting yourself worked up about this? I mean honestly, you've learned in the past that this is a topic that is just best left alone. There never will be a change from either side. Wikipedia as a whole will never come to an agreement on this subject. We have a workable compromise. We should just leave it alone. The diacritics are not going to jump off the screen and kill you some day. Life will go on. And all this wasted energy could just be focused towards more usefull editing. -Djsasso (talk) 21:27, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I need to interject here. It's for the average reader that GoodDay is speaking up for, something that you seem to be disregarding, Djsasso. The folks who are pushing the alternative alphabets are not the average (English) reader. Alaney2k (talk) 21:32, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

What exactly is this "satanic feminist" user doing? Haha. The NHL doesn't use diacritics, the names should remain as they are on the player's jerseys. -RiverHockey (talk) 21:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Messing with us for no good reason. How did you make that edit so fast? Alaney2k (talk)
He's obviously just another wiki user with too much time on his hands trying to boost his edit count. Made the edit so fast? -RiverHockey (talk) 21:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see him as sticking up for the average reader, as I don't think the average reader has any problem reading them. As you mentioned you just tend to ignore them if you see them. I see him as having a very "xenophobic" (his discription of himself, not mine) view. This arguement isn't about making it easier for the average reader. It's about getting his own way, or he wouldn't bring it up over and over again every few months. In fact there is a whole seperate encyclopedia for the simple english reader at Simple English Wikipedia. -Djsasso (talk) 21:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see your rationale. I don't spy on his edits like you do. :-) There are problems with having foreign alphabetic characters. For one, they don't guarantee accuracy of themselves. They are likely not helpful in pronunciation. And they are unfriendly to average readers, and possibly to special needs readers, and to people with lesser computers. It's got nothing to do with cultural imperialism. Alaney2k (talk) 21:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
But they are not foreign alphabetic characters, they are still English characters. Unfriendly or not, you would not change a big yellow flag to blue just because that makes it easier to see on the screen. You don't change something from correct to incorrect just because it would make life easier. If his arguements were as well thought out as yours, I probably wouldn't have as much issue with them. But his for the most part really are about cultural imperialism. -Djsasso (talk) 21:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
English characters, Dj? Don't you mean 'Latin characters'? GoodDay (talk) 21:48, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
See this is the pettiness I am talking about. I thought you were done and leaving? -Djsasso (talk) 21:51, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
You guys type fast when you are hot Alaney2k (talk) 21:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Responding to the other points you made: As mentioned on the Wikipedia page on this topic, English has no Academy, so the definition of 'correctness' is arbitrary when it comes to this. We as English speakers and readers, including GoodDay should be able to discuss the usage of characters that are 'foreign' to our language, without it necessarily be xenophobic or imperialistic. I would rather focus on the practical nature. As I've said, I do like the idea of using correct (as in how the locals use them) names, but putting unusual/foreign/non-English characters into English texts is not improving them, per se. Alaney2k (talk) 21:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry Dj (but you did correct me earlier). Anways, this is getting petty. GoodDay (talk) 21:57, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Depends on what you use wikipedia for, if you just use it for an "Oh that's interesting." resource or if you are using it for research. I prefer to have it close to what is actually used so peoples research is correct. Because wikipedia ends up influencing other things, for example I forget exactly what it was about but a hockey page on here quoted an NHL article as reference, but the article on the NHL site was just a quote from wikipedia (and acknowledged as such) so it was a circular reference. And to top it off the information was wrong, but is now quoted in newspapers through out the world and the information was completely false. By putting incorrect info in wikipedia it will eventually corrupt info elsewhere. -Djsasso (talk) 22:00, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

As enjoyable as this argument must be for you all, I am compelled to ask a non-rhetorical question: what's the big deal? As long as article names with diacritics have non-diacritic redirects — and vice versa — isn't everybody's position handled? Editors with US standard keyboard layouts (like me) aren't forced to use them when composing articles. I can use Jaromir Jagr if I want. From the reader's perspective, as long as we keep to the Latin-1 character set (and don't use Cyrillic for Russian names, for example), I don't see any issue. I'm a native English speaker, but I don't freak out when I see Jaromír Jágr instead. Does anybody seriously think there is a problem with that? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't bother you, but it does bother others. That's an issue of itself. Alaney2k (talk) 22:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
That has always been my position. It doesn't bother me if there is both. But it seriously bothers the people who want the diacritics removed. All I have been trying to say is don't get into edit wars (or talk page wars for that matter) over it. Just let the topic lay as is. -Djsasso (talk) 22:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, well that's my question: Why? Why does it bother some people? What's the big deal? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:13, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that is the question. I sure as heck don't get it either. -Djsasso (talk) 22:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
GoodDay, where are you??? :-) Seriously, I think that the use of them leaves you scratching at your head. Why are they there? Are we trying to somehow fool people into thinking we use them? :-) Alaney2k (talk) 22:16, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The way I see it is I will only except diacritics when either a) The NHL uses them on their jerseys or b) My English keyboard is remade to include these diacritics. We are the only Wikipedia to vary away from our own language. Every other language spells names with the diacritics and languages that are in their alphabet. Why would English differ? I just don't see the logic behind it. Thricecube (talk) 22:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It is being done to appease those who want them, and prevent an edit war. The use of them does not guarantee correctness. Alaney2k (talk) 22:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, the first point makes (some) sense to me, but I don't understand the second. Again, I am suggesting that nobody has to edit or search en.wiki using diacritics (i.e. use your keyboard), but unly to read them while browsing, should some other editor want to use them. Where's the problem with that? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Djsasso: Henrik Lundqvist article has a circular reference, if that's what you were thinking about. Topic: I can't belive this happen again, didn't anyone learn anything from the past arguments? Let's just stick to out compromise and let this discussion be for now. --Krm500 (talk) 00:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

When are we gonna remove dios from all the North American hockey team articles? Which was how the compromise was meant to be (until Djsasso & Krm500; forced their amendment on it). GoodDay (talk) 19:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
We didn't force any amendment, we simply showed you that Wikipedia already has a policy for place names is I just mentioned to you in the discussion below. -Djsasso (talk) 19:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
That's contradicting the NA team articles & their primary sources, the NHL & NHLPA. This is a case for Wikipedia: Ignore? wouldn't you agree? GoodDay (talk) 19:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Let me see. 'Teemu Selanne' is wrong, yet 'Finland' is right & 'Jaromir Jagr' is wrong, yet 'Czech Republic' is right. The dios must be completely removed from the North American hockey team articles. Those refusing, are continuing to be inflexiable (and ignoring attempts at collaboration); the NHL & NHLPA sources should be removed since they've been 'declared' unreliable by the pro-dios. GoodDay (talk) 20:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Common English spelling

I've been adding the common English spelling of players. Mostly of Czech descent, whose articles, as agreed, use the correct player name spelling, but use a non-English spelling. Djsasso wrote me to say that it was wrong to do so, or that I didn't follow procedure. I've done the edits 'in good faith', but I am always open to improve things. I think that it is useful information, especially if you want to do a 'full-text' search on a player. My point is that you can do a lookup of Yashin in full-text, although that is not his correct name, but if you were try Jiří Tlustý, you would not be able to do a lookup. Is there a better way to add that info? Alaney2k (talk) 21:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say it was incorrect to do so, I just suggested that you bring it here to discuss. These players all have redirects pointing to their articles, so doing a search is not affected by the diacritics in their names. (and if any are missing them, they should be added) -Djsasso (talk) 21:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't mean a search here on Wikipedia. I meant in the news media. You know the 'real world'? :-) :-) (Ok, well maybe not the Toronto media) Alaney2k (talk) 21:53, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I think you've got a good idea there, Al. GoodDay (talk) 21:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, if 'Mikey' will eat it ... ??? Alaney2k (talk) 21:53, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
It sure would be easier for eveyone, if our computers could filter out/filter in diacritics. Example- if my computer could filter out? I wouldn't be bothered by dios; where's if Elrith's computer could filter in? he wouldn't be bothered by lack of dios. GoodDay (talk) 22:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Sure, get a 1980's computer! Alaney2k (talk) 23:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Ahhh the 80's, the Fast Times at Ridgemont High era. I was just a little guy, then. GoodDay (talk) 23:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
One of my favourite movies. :) -Djsasso (talk) 23:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

If the current way I added it is a mess, how about this (e.g.) : Ľubomír Višňovský (en: Lubomir Visnovsky). What is in the en field should be that as used by reliable sources. It's a bit shorter, but does indicate what to use to look up the player externally to Wikipedia. I don't know if the native spelling has a reliable source, of course. ;-) Alaney2k (talk) 23:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the bold on the text after the en: should be removed. Alaney2k (talk) 23:46, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Looks good to me. GoodDay (talk) 23:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
You are being 'too easy to please'. This -must- mean it won't be acceptable to the general population. ;-) Alaney2k (talk) 23:52, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Fine, then you wont have a problem with "us" adding (Swedish: Nicklas Lidström) after Nicklas Lidstrom in the current roster section in the Red Wings article? --Krm500 (talk) 00:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Is it a problem to have the common english spelling in the player article? I don't think we need to open the 'current roster' issue as part of this discussion. Alaney2k (talk) 00:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

This is more of an eyesore than the diacritics. Simply ridiculous. You can't have a "common English spelling" of a proper noun. I'm pro-diacritics on this one: diacritics in the title and entry line, whatever anywhere else. Grsz11 (talk) 00:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

For many players, it doesn't add much. But it is needed because we don't have a place to state 'the typical spelling' of a player with foreign characters is the removal of those foreign characters with plain ASCII'. Like I mentioned to you, I am open to suggestions, preferably constructive ones. :-) Alaney2k (talk)
My belief (as was previously agreed upon) is the use of diacritics as titles and in the opening, but wikilinks and in-text mentions don't need them. I stand by the fact that you can't Anglicize a person's name. My name doesnt become Zak in German just because they prefer k over c. Grsz11 (talk) 00:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
It is common to 'trans-literate' a name. The Russian players in the NHL all have translated names. With all due respect, your POV is not objective. Alaney2k (talk) 00:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Don't mention the 'current roster' Krm500. I'm still frustrated with pro-dios ownership on that topic. GoodDay (talk) 00:25, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Ownership? You're the one running the show, why can't we just stick to the compromise. --Krm500 (talk) 00:30, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Me? running the show? On the contrary, if I were running the show? English Wikipedia would be free of diacritics (except where absolutedly needed). Trust me, I'm not running the show; far from it. GoodDay (talk) 15:14, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Please, this is not about the use of characters. It is about listing the typical, common English spelling for those players whose correct native spelling includes characters that are not in everyday usage. For the sake of being helpful. Not about being hurtful or bigoted. Alaney2k (talk) 00:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'll probably be banned for this, but is there really people stupid enough out there so that they can't figure out that for example Roman Hamrlík is Roman Hamrlik or Johan Franzén is Johan Franzen? --Krm500 (talk) 00:56, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Of course. ;-) Like I said, for most players it doesn't add much. But we should be consistent, no? In the case of Johan Franzen, I would expect to pronounce it Franzeen, (a 'hard' or 'long' e) with the Franzén spelling, which I don't think is correct. Because I do know French pronunciation. And we may find that spellings in English change in the future to phonetic, like we do with Chinese. It used to be Peking, now it is Beijing. I think we stick with a very simple, least irritating way to show what is the typical common spelling in English. By the way, the Šťastný's son, Paul of the Avalanche, does he or doesn't he use the familial spelling or does he use the anglicized now? Alaney2k (talk) 01:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
No where on Wikipedia is "english spelling" used so there goes the consistency you are talking about. Why not just make it standard to have IPA on every single article, that's what 99% of wikipedia does, why shouldn't we? And Franzén is pronounced with a long e. --Krm500 (talk) 01:17, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I think having the native spelling in the English wikipedia is a good thing. So you should first be happy with that. Because English speakers generally are not willing to defer. I think we are working on a 'good thing' here. Second, why must the 'common' English spelling be obliterated? As I mentioned previously, it would be the spelling you would use in a search of other (English) web sites. Third, we are dealing with a subject that people feel very strongly about. As for the IPA, that would be a great addition, but I think that the IPA is a complex solution. You need a tutorial to use it. Speaking of Franzén, could you add his pronunciation to his page? Alaney2k (talk) 01:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
As already pointed out, there are redirects to the misspelled names, we don't need them in the article. And no I can not add it since my knowledge of IPA is not good enough. --Krm500 (talk) 01:40, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
We need an 'IPA for Dummies' book. :-) But the users shouldn't. I would argue that we do need the en spellings. The NHL, NHLPA, hockeydb and the news media use them. They are a link to the 'real world', which is what this encyclopedia is about. Alaney2k (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I highly favor IPA over this. And as Krm said, there are redirects. You're edits have accomplished nothing but create a mess. Grsz11 (talk) 01:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Would it be to much to ask you to do the IPA then for Franzén? Alaney2k (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll do if the en-spellings go. ;) --Krm500 (talk) 01:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know, might be too easy. :-) Could you do Ľubomír_Višňovský's IPA? Looks like a 'toughie'. Would the IPA help a person like me, I wonder. That first 'Ľ', what does the 'accent-like strike' do? (Pardon my ignorance). Anyway, I would suggest (respectfully) that we need these spellings, dumb that they may be considered 'out of context'. I don't know why they -must- go either. Can you speak about that? Alaney2k (talk) 02:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Speaking to the 'mess' issue, adding the IPA is itself kind of messy. Maybe we need to put these sorts of things (en-spelling, IPA) in the Infobox? Alaney2k (talk) 02:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
They must go since; 1a, this is an encyclopedia. 1b if you don't care about the "diacritics" you can just ignore them and you have the exact same name that you are adding. --Krm500 (talk) 02:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
It's additional information. Others would perpetuate the argument that we shouldn't use diacritics at all, which you surely disagree with, yet you want to obliterate the english spellings. Why is one right and the other wrong? This can go on and on, (and has, sadly) and I believe putting both spellings on (in some fashion at least) can lead us out of this. An encyclopedia must be readable by its readers. It must be 'bought' in some sense. We can build support for the use of foreign characters by being generous both ways. If you push to obliterate, then people will continue to oppose that as much as you push the native spellings. Why keep pushing? I see lots of players articles that need work and our energies are diverted. Alaney2k (talk) 02:15, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Many people have troubles with numbers, does that mean that we should satisfy their need and remove statistics from all articles? --Krm500 (talk) 02:27, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The english spellings are like the statistics. They exist. Alaney2k (talk) 02:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there any chance of diacritics being confined to the title and first sentence? Grsz11 (talk) 02:31, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

In other fields, where you see things like 1 AD and 1 CE, you can't try to standardize. It's too late. Maybe it is not too late for hockey, but is up to the willingness of editors. I doubt that those who are 'pushing' the diacritics would be willing to go along with that. I think that it goes to the sense of 'correctness' about the spelling, etc. Alaney2k (talk) 02:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

There's a difference between just removing diacritics (which is what this is) and actually providing English spelling. Many German cities are spelt entirely different in German and English: Munich (en) becomes München (gr), Geneva becomes Genf, and Cologne becomes Köln. In these names though, there is no difference; there's nothing to change to. Grsz11 (talk) 03:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I've not removed anything. I added a simple piece of text listing the common spelling, the 'real world' spelling, if you will, that exists out there. I do not wish to remove the diacritics, accents, anything. The idea of Wiki being like a scientific journal is for the other alternative Wikipedias, where people are pushing the idea of experts in the field to review all articles. Alaney2k (talk) 13:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

This edit spree by Alaney2k goes against the project-wide consistency of biographical articles. If in some rare case providing a "common English spelling" would really help the reader, it can be added. In most cases, however, it is unnecessary and underestimates the reader, such as "en: Teemu Selanne" on Teemu Selänne. Common sense applies. Also, this matter should not be discussed here. Biographies that are part of WikiProject Ice Hockey are usually part of other projects also, and above all, they are part of the encyclopedia with 500,000+ biographies and a continuous effort to maintain a consistent style and layout. Changes to existing practice can be proposed at the village pump or at more relevant talk pages. Prolog (talk) 11:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Consistency would be good if it is true, but it is not. Read those articles with the players for which I've added the English spelling. Many use the other spelling throughout the article, some just in the first line. I have no doubt that many articles of European players use none of the native spelling of the player's names. I've been consistent in a very simple extra piece of text. This 'consistency' of the articles is not true. I've not changed any policies or proposed anything beyond adding what is found in reliable sources today. Go outside Wiki and you will find Visnovsky on the Web, in the newspapers, etc. The spelling I've added is citeable. Look at how the birthdates and birthplaces, etc. are listed. No consistency. So, please don't pick on my attempt to add something useful. Alaney2k (talk) 13:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

You guys are discussing from ages about diacritics. I don't see what's wrong with them. You've got the original (true, official, birth) spelling and the English common one. Where's the problem? It's an encyclopedia and it must be the more complete it can be. --necronudist (talk) 14:25, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

This is basically what I say, have both. Alaney2k (talk) 14:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
If somebody doesnt know diacritics, what do you they?: They ignore them. They block them out of their mind even if there isnt a spelling without them beside the one with them. Does the common reader even know what the accents do to the spelling? I know some, but certainly not enough to know how the hell to say Lubomir. Grsz 11 14:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The english spellings are the reality. It is wishful thinking that we use the diacritics outside of Wikipedia. We also ignore misspellings and grammar as well. Alaney2k (talk) 15:14, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
As you said, putting them in doesn't mean it helps with the pronounciation. That would be a good service from the 'pushers', to add those. I think the actual persons would like that. Alaney2k (talk) 15:20, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Come on guys/gals? Give Al's idea a chance. GoodDay (talk) 15:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly what is this adding when the IPA is already on the page?? Is it really necessary in a page like Niittymäki where only the 'a' changes? Russian is a different ALPHABET. A and Ä look close enough that people can figure it out themselves. This is entirely ridiculous. You need to put something like this to a vote before you just go and do it. People did this with MOVING people's pages from diacritics to non-diacritics just to generate discussion a year ago maybe? Maybe more? In any case it's bad Wikipedia practice. I don't know why WP:Hockey is so insistant upon constantly debating diacritics. It doesn't seem to be this big of an issue in all of the other articles using them (political leaders, place names, etc).

Speaking of Russian and other languages...

Hazelorb (talk) 15:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

It's a big deal, concerning the NHL related articles. Why? Those articles two major sources, the NHL official website & NHLPA official website, don't use diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 15:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
It's using the diacritics that is the "big deal", it should not be that the use of the English spelling, as is demonstrable, is a big deal. As for the IPA, it is debatable as to how useful it is to English speakers. Try to edit one. Some of those who are pushing for diacritics don't know how to do one. And it is not 'laziness', it's difficult. Alaney2k (talk) 15:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Not using diacritic's is laziness, which is why using the NHL site and NHLPA site as sources are not appropriate. It is not correct to just remove diacritics from a proper noun as has been said many times. The rules in the English language leave the diacritics on for proper nouns. This is why I am so vehemently opposed to removing them. But as millions of people have said in this discussion why are we debating this again. Just leave the topic alone. Goodday you are most definately the one with ownership issues here as someone else mentioned, you always bring these stupid things up. Just stick to the concensus and leave it alone. -Djsasso (talk) 16:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't have ownership issues. I haven't been involved (editing) in any of the recent edit wars concerning this topic. As I've told Krm500, if I was in control here? diacritics would be swept from the hockey articles (not to mention all of English Wikipedia); obviously, I'm not in control here. Again, please note - I haven't done any edits or reversions. GoodDay (talk) 16:12, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Ownership doesn't just mean making edits. It is the bringing up of the topic over and over again. No one else but you keeps bringing up diacritic debates over and over. Sure once the topic is brought up some of us debate it with you, but it is always you that starts the debate. -Djsasso (talk) 16:15, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Is it 'laziness' or 'energy efficiency'? :-) Alaney2k (talk) 16:18, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok, since either spelling are acceptable, valid, etc. in Wikipedia, I believe it helps to note the en spelling. Then we have only two to keep track of, others, not ok. And those lazy editors need to add those IPAs. Hear, hear. :-) Alaney2k (talk) 16:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I've made two complaints in roughly six (or more) months, over the slightly-in-favour of pro-dios compromise. I'd hardly call that ownership issues - It would be so much easier, to simply removed/hide those dios on the NHL team articles (current roster's birthplaces). GoodDay (talk) 16:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
There we go with the birthplaces again. The NHL does not decide how a nation or a city i spelled. What if a player was born on Åland, do you seriously think we should write place of birth as Aland just because the NHL is ignorant/illiterate. And Alaney2k; Ľubomír Višňovský in english is Ľubomír Višňovský, not Lubomir Visnovsky. --Krm500 (talk) 16:40, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
As I've said, over and over, I am not about debating the correctness. I am talking about the reality outside of Wiki. It's not just the NHL, it's all of the English media. Are -all- of them wrong? We are talking about an accepted common practice. Not whether it is 'correct.' And you can certainly debate whether anything is 'correct' in English. You or I cannot state beyond ourselves what is correct. There is no Academy determining the correct spelling of anything. And we certainly accept errors in english: e.g.: 'Go boldly where no man has gone before' in Star Trek. Alaney2k (talk) 16:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
You know, everyone? Al is trying to build a bridge between both sides of these issues. We all, can atleast show some appreciation for his efforts. GoodDay (talk) 16:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
You have to bend too. Alaney2k (talk) 16:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, I'll propose here (what I proposed to Elrith; who's turned it down). Have dios in all NHL hockey player articles (that includes content, of course) in exchange for complete removal/hiding of dios on NHL team articles. GoodDay (talk) 16:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
We already have dios in all player pages. That was what the old compromise was. -Djsasso (talk) 16:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The NHL team articles are WP:HOCKEY, that should be up to the project. Anyway, I'd rather focus on this one simple thing, that of listing the common en spelling, where it is different for a player. I am not trying to negotiate an end to edit warring, just trying to add something useful/helpful. Alaney2k (talk) 17:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Obviously the 'player' half isn't being respected at Joe Sakic, Mario Lemieux etc. It might be though, if dios were removed/hidden completely from the NHL team articles. PS- I think Al's solution on 'english spelling' in the bios opening line, is acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 17:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The issue, or "reality" is that this is an encyclopedia, based on many rules. Two key rules are Verifiability and No original research. In the case with diacritics the NHL and the NHLPA are not reliable sources since they choose to ignore them, so adding "english names" is against the ground rules of wikipedia. --Krm500 (talk) 17:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
No solution will ever be fully respected or there would already be a Wiki wide solution to the issue. -Djsasso (talk) 17:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
KRrm500: That's right, the diacritical spelling cannot be cited against the NHL sites. What is your point? Alaney2k (talk) 17:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
GoodDay's whole arguement hinges on citing them against those pages. That is the point. -Djsasso (talk) 17:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I can cite the english spelling against newspapers. Are they not reliable either? Please, I am trying to stay on track with adding the english spelling, not the whole of diacritics. That is another issue. I don't dispute the validity of the diacritical spelling. I cannot either show a cite for them. The english ones, I can cite. I can find them. They are not original research or anything like that. They exist. Like the nicknames, etc. Alaney2k (talk) 17:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Technically it is original research, in that you are comibining mistakes from multiple sources to try and make it appear as if those names are the correct spelling in English, which they are not. -Djsasso (talk) 17:27, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
We're not saying Teemu Selanne & Jaromir Jagr are the 'correct spelling'; we're saying they're the 'common usage in English spelling'. GoodDay (talk) 17:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Which in an encyclopedia would indicate that it is the correct English spelling. -Djsasso (talk) 17:34, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Al isn't trying to 'erase' the dios. GoodDay (talk) 17:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I am not saying he is. I am saying he is introducing inaccuracies into the page and more importantly making a big mess of the articles. -Djsasso (talk) 17:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Not to mention "en:Patrik Stefan" means the correct english spelling is Patrik Stefan for example. -Djsasso (talk) 17:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I still object to this whole pointless debate, which will never be resolved... It was wrong to change all of the articles without A VOTE FIRST. Hazelorb (talk) 17:35, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The articles should probably be switched back. -Djsasso (talk) 17:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Hazelob & Djsasso, you guys may do as you like (I'm not in the reverting buisness). You both know, however - it will spark off a bigger fire. The only solutions are 'mass page protections' or 'mass blockings of editors'. GoodDay (talk) 17:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The solution is 1. not mass editing articles without consensus and 2. drafting a proper proposal and putting it to a vote. Hazelorb (talk) (added missing sig Djsasso (talk) 18:29, 5 March 2008 (UTC))
We don't put things to a vote here in Wikiland Alaney2k (talk) 14:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Technically we do. It's called RFC, while its not a vote persay, it is what he means. -Djsasso (talk) 15:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I was away yesterday and I see 'probably revert' really means 'I will go ahead and revert'. Alaney2k (talk) 14:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so what proposal to add the english spellings to the english wiki would be acceptable or are you guys really 'hard-headed' about this? Can we
a) add the english spellings to the English wiki in the Infobox?
b)Can we add a standard section stating that the player is spelled differently in the NA media?
c) allow a sentence in the text stating that the player is spelled differently in the NA media?
It is puzzling to have to fight for the English spelling in the English wiki! Alaney2k (talk) 14:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

You are still missing the point I think. We don't believe this is the English spelling, this is why we do not want it. Why on earth does this keep coming up. Let's just leave things how they are. -Djsasso (talk) 15:49, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Because it's hard to determine when the 'last word' is in fact, written. :-) Do you not read the external media? Are you on the Wiki all day? Why can you not believe that they write the names without the latin additions? Alaney2k (talk) 15:59, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Again, just because media in one part of the world tend to spell it incorrectly, does not make it right. Going based on media in one part of the world is extreme bias. -Djsasso (talk) 16:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

And going based on media in the other part of the world, is also bias. GoodDay (talk) 16:04, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Which is why we should leave the topic alone. That being said, going by the media in the rest of the world is actually based on the rules of the English language that state diacritics are used in proper nouns.... -Djsasso (talk) 16:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Al is trying to help & he's being basically 'prushed aside. GoodDay (talk) 16:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not saying he isn't trying to help, I am just saying as are most of the people above, that it is just not a workable solution. -Djsasso (talk) 16:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
As Wiki says, there is no English Academy. It is always debatable as to the 'correct' spelling. That is not my point. It seems to be your point that the media spellings are banned from the player pages. We can't even -mention- it. Is that what you became an admin for? Alaney2k (talk) 16:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Please find a reference to Visnovsky using the native spelling in any English media. Can that be done? I tried to use his 'correct' spelling in a search on TSN. Does not work! This is the disconnect we need to bridge! Alaney2k (talk) 16:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
It wasn't my solution that player pages have diacritics, it was actually GoodDay's. Secondly I would like to see diacritics on every page quite frankly and moved quite alot to accomodate not having them on North American pages. Secondly my being an admin has nothing to do with this. I have no more say in this than anyone else. I have been arguing this since way before that ever happened, and will continue to do so. -Djsasso (talk) 16:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes it was my solution for the player pages. But, Al is offering an amendment to that; he does have a case for censurship here. Also, what about the 'dios' on NHL team articles? I didn't agree to that. GoodDay (talk) 16:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
You begrudgingly accepted it because if I recall no one was going to accept the compromise if you didn't. This isn't really a censorship issue, if you want no dios on player pages, then I want dios on the players names on team pages. It's quite simple really and why I think the topic should be dropped cause peoples feelings always get hurt in this debate. -Djsasso (talk) 16:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Djsasso, take my challenge. Please. Find Višňovský in any English media or not. If you don't will accept that the convention is to not spell it that way? Alaney2k (talk) 16:18, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't have time to search up every english language paper in the world. Remeber google is not the be all end all of sources. That being said I did already find one web page spelling it that way, not really sure I would call it media though. -Djsasso (talk) 16:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Yummy, see my posting at your page Djsasso. You too Al, come to Dj's page. GoodDay (talk) 16:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, djsasso, then who is the 'lazy editor' now? :-) (reverb on (as in 'karaoke')) THEREFORE YOU MUST ADMIT (reverb off) that the common convention is to spell without the pronunciation marks. And I submit respectfully, humbly that we should be 'allowed' to mention them somehow. I use the word 'allowed' deliberately because you 'policed' the pages I worked on and reverted them. So you've taken that on. Alaney2k (talk) 17:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I did not police them, I put them back to where they were so that a discussion could have been had, you deliberately went and made a mass change without consulting those involved which you had to know was a nono. I would switch them back if a concensus is reached. But a concensus is not reached. In this discussion alone, you have been overwelmingly opposed by multiple editors, not just me. It is not just up to me to allow you to do anything, you can try and add what you want, you will likely be reverted by the multiple people who reverted you. In my reverting of your edits I found a large number of people who reverted them before I did that haven't even spoken in this discussion. That should show you that at the moment concensus is clearly against you. -Djsasso (talk) 17:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Walks like a duck, talks like a duck. :-) You took on the policing role as part of being an admin. I admitted an error, in my first paragraph on this topic. Lighten up, please. :-)

Alaney2k (talk) 17:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, the common spelling is not Višňovský, I think that's been shown. Alaney2k (talk) 17:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I should also bring up Mikhail Grabovsky. He seems to be spelled Mikhail Grabovski in English. So it's not just diacritics. hockeydb uses Grabovsky, but the NHL and TSN do not. We probably should investigate his spelling for cites, etc. Alaney2k (talk) 17:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

If he is spelled Grabovski then by all means change it. That is very different than diactritics. -Djsasso (talk) 17:17, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
In this case, please advise me how to figure out what is the correct spelling? That's all you allow, after all. ;-) Alaney2k (talk) 17:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
This case is a translation, removing diacritics is not. -Djsasso (talk) 17:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Please advise, that is my request. Maybe someone else should answer. Alaney2k (talk) 17:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what you want to know then, there is a difference between translation and just removing diacritics. München to Munich or Grabovsky to Grabovski are translations. Selänne to Selanne is not a translation, but a removal of diacritics. -Djsasso (talk) 17:41, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
You have stated that the NHL is not a reliable source for spellings. Please advise. Alaney2k (talk) 18:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Now you are just trying to be arguementative. Why suddenly are you so passionate about this when you have never even discussed it before. Again, read above to all the opposes above to your suggestion and stop trying to focus on me and make it sound like its me that is blocking you. I am doing no such thing. No one person can make these kind of calls. You are just falling into the same routine of denying what anyone else thinks that you did when you got in your spat about the Ottawa Senators articles. Looking above there is clearly an opinion that this is not a good idea. A project simply cannot make the kind of calls you want to implement. If you want changes in policy go ahead and go to Village Pump and start arguing your case. Our compromise before was just to get an end to the constant edit waring that was happening. Bringing it up again is only going to start the edit waring again. -Djsasso (talk) 18:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
"It takes one to know one". "Stick and stones". I did not call you argumentative, I said you 'policed' my edits. That's not pejorative, IMO. As I've stated, I've tried to be helpful. As I understand it, you will revert the edits if they don't use the correct spelling. But you refuse to accept the NHL as the correct spelling. So, for Mr. Grabvoski, how do we determine this? Really, this is the problem by stating only one spelling is 'correct'. Alaney2k (talk) 18:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually I never add or remove diacritics to articles unless its reverting someone who was adding or removing them contrary to our compromise. It's a missconception that I actually go around adding diacritics to everything, I don't even know if I have ever done it once except in support of this current compromise. Mr. Grabvoski has already been adjusted, I said the NHL isn't correct for spellings in terms of diacritics, and a search of other english references show they most often use an i. The way we adjust for multiple spellings on wikipedia is through redirects. -Djsasso (talk) 18:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for determining Grabovksi. I see you used the 'they most often use an i' as your determination. That is my argument, though. I feel soiled. :-) As for the Sens, definitely a revival. ROTFL Alaney2k (talk) 18:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
No, the compromise has not been respected, 'concerning North American hockey team articles. Also, let's not have 'edit wars' on any of these topics; we can all agree to that. GoodDay (talk) 19:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
When was the last time you saw an experienced member of the project add diacritics to a players name on a team page? I don't know that I have ever seen one since the compromise came into effect. So that being said seems to me that its being respected quite well. -Djsasso (talk) 19:07, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The dios are suppose to be removed/hidden completely; they've not been. You've (plural) not yet respected the 'North American half of the compromise'. The 'dios on birth places at the NHL articles, were added against the majority's preference. GoodDay (talk) 19:18, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually that isn't true at all, and the last time you complained about this there were links shown to you that the compromise only ever affected players names. Wikipedia overall already made a call on place names, unless a town has an Exonym it uses its native spelling, as a project we can not over rule that. -Djsasso (talk) 19:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Should we note on the WP:Hockey page for player bios, where it mentions diacritics, that Wiki policy for biographical articles is applied/should be applied here? Something to that effect? That's what should be made clear to everyone, even in this project. Then it wouldn't look like you are policing to your standard, Djsasso. Alaney2k (talk) 19:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure what standard you think I am policing to anymore, all I did was revert your edits to exactly how they were before you made them so a discussion and possible concensus could be established, I wasn't following a particular standard. But yes Wikipedia policy always over rules anything we decided as a project. No single editor is bound by anything that the project decided, people can add and remove them at will. It is just us as a small group within wikipedia trying to find a way to stop the reverting that goes on amoungst us that this compromise was put in place, so atleast the major hockey contributers wouldn't war. But no one that edits wikipedia is bound by whatever we as a project decide. -Djsasso (talk) 19:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Wait a sec, this is getting confusing. We're having simultaneious discussions here (see me above). GoodDay (talk) 19:28, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
See what above? I have long since been confused by what you two are talking about. -Djsasso (talk) 19:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I noticed. Alaney2k (talk) 19:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Don't forget to reply to the first part, about adding the WP:BIO reference or something. Alaney2k (talk) 19:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

This exonyms thing is interesting, thanks for bringing it up. Why are we not using 'Slovensko', instead of 'Slovakia'? Or 'Sverige' instead of Sweden? It seems incorrect to use the endonym for a town in Slovensko, but not the endonym for the country. And of course using our own exonyms on the NHL team pages for the player names. Which we can't seem to verify, I might add! Of course, this goes beyond hockey. Alaney2k (talk) 19:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

We probably need a task force. Does a task force get gadgets? Alaney2k (talk) 19:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
You have it backwards, we use Slovakia because of the eoxnym. Munich is an example I used above of when we use it, we use the English version of the word. But not all towns are translated in such a way, and in those cases we use the native version. -Djsasso (talk) 19:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
No gadgets. Alaney2k (talk) 19:49, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I wish! Anyways, I am done in this arguement, nothing new is being stated. -Djsasso (talk) 19:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Good, I get the last word. Allow the common spellings, people! Rise up against your Politically Correct oppressors! :-) Mix your endonyms with your exonyms and let's dance! :-) Alaney2k (talk) 19:59, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Foreign professional leagues

Do we count these as the start of a players career? For example, the Evgeni Malkin article had his career start at 2003, but he wasnt drafted until 04, and didnt play here until 06. Grsz 11 15:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

If it's a professional league, that's what I've seen done. I think it is mentioned in the template for infoboxes. Alaney2k (talk) 15:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, any professional league anywhere counts. Be advised though that not all second tier leagues in Europe are professional even if they are looked at as such. But yes things like the Russian Super League are considered professional. -Djsasso (talk) 16:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The career_start option on Template:Infobox Ice Hockey Player defines "top national leagues in Europe and Russia" to be professional, sounds simpler than it probably is. But it works fine in my world. More often the problem is knowing if the player begun playing in the autumn or spring part of the debut season. I often guess by looking at the number of games and nobody has had any objections yet. :) --Bamsefar75 (talk) 16:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I think we decided at one point to go by the year the season starts in, but I might be incorrect. It would have been a few years ago I remember talking about it. -Djsasso (talk) 16:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

J.S. Aubin

What is this goalie's status? He is not listed on the Ducks roster, though we know the Ducks traded for him. Alaney2k (talk) 21:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Last I heard, he reported directly to the Ducks' AHL affiliate. -- Gmatsuda (talk) 21:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Using sortable tables

Does anyone here know how to properly use sortable tables? I've got myself into reformatting a page and want to incorporate a sortable list, but have come across a problem. I want to be able to list dates in chronological order but can't find a way to make it work. The help feature is rather confusing to the point that I have no idea what it's talking about, so I'm here. If anyone would care to explain how to add dates into a table, that would help a lot. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:24, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I've used it here:
Player GP GS MIN W L OTL GA GAA SA SV SV% SO
Ty Conklin 29 27 1646 17 5 5 66 2.41 895 828 .925 2
Marc-Andre Fleury 24 22 1238 11 9 1 56 2.71 617 561 .909 3
Dany Sabourin 23 20 1243 10 9 1 57 2.75 595 539 .906 2
COMBINED 38 23 7 178 2.67 2107 1939 .920 7

Is this something like you were looking for?

Name Year of Birth Number of Times Arrested
George 1957 10
Luther 1976 4
Monica 1995 0

Grsz11 (talk) 04:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Use {{dts|dd|mm|yyyy}} --Krm500 (talk) 11:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Just tried that, and it still goes by alphabetical months rather than chronological. Unless I'm doing something wrong with it. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I did get this whole mess to work. It's now available at List of NHL retired numbers for everyone to see. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:49, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Hockey Hall of Fame on the main page

The Hockey Hall of Fame will make the main page on March 7. This caught me off guard because I didn't think it would make the main page less than a month after promotion (I've seen people say 6 months after promotion is too soon) and I had been considering requesting it in June when the new inductees are announced. -- Scorpion0422 15:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Congrats! Grsz 11 16:12, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Nice, which image will be used as the lead image? --Krm500 (talk) 16:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I would guess the one of the building itself. That is the best one on that page. But I could see them using the logo. -Djsasso (talk) 16:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice to see. I was considering nominating Joe Sakic for early April to start off the playoffs, but I guess I'll mabye wait until July for his birthday if this is happening. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The Stanley Cup would be a good one for the start of the playoffs. It's worth requesting because Raul once told me the minimum period for the same topic is 2 weeks, and at one point there were 3 Soccer articles on the main page within 2 months. -- Scorpion0422 18:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

That would be a better topic, seeing how the Avs are still fighting to even make it in. We should definetly go for getting the Stanley Cup on for it. I do believe the playoffs start on April 6, so we can request it as early as now. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Yay my first FA on the Main Page... :-) And Stanley Cup should make an appearance, too. Any suggestions for Ray Emery to appear on the Main Page? ;-) Maxim(talk) 20:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Isn't better to wait just a little bit with the Stanley Cup, for example when the conference finals start? --Krm500 (talk) 21:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I would aim it for the end of May beginning of June for when the finals start. -Djsasso (talk) 21:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Congrats. I can see why they would quickly promote to the main page. That is an impressively comprehensive and sourced article, well deserving of its feature status. Canuckle (talk) 22:27, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Jeez. If you guys get all of these articles on the main page now, I'm going to have a lot of problems getting Calgary Flames on the main page when the 2008-09 season opens.  ;) Grats on getting that one up! Resolute 02:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Hell...I'm having a hard enough time getting Nashville Predators referenced and rewritten...much less featured...way, way, way too much Jim Balsillie stuff for a team that wasn't sold to him... --SmashvilleBONK! 23:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
      • Do you want some help with that article? Maxim(talk) 23:07, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
        • You don't know how awesome that would be. --SmashvilleBONK! 00:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
          • Honestly, I think Balsillie's attempts to purchase hockey teams would make a good article all its own. Resolute 01:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
  • That would make for an interesting article. Jim Balsillie and the NHL or something, incorporating his attempts to go try and buy the Penguins, then the Predators. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
          • Oh, and good luck bringing it up to FA standard. Certainly takes a lot of work. Resolute 01:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Yay, it's there! Several articles I've worked on have made the main page, but this is the first one that I did a lot of the framework on, so it's very cool. -- Scorpion0422 00:42, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

NHL Article

What's it going to take to get this to FA-status? --SmashvilleBONK! 03:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Probably not that much really. It looks like it just needs some prose issues fixed up, probably a lookthrough to make sure references are relevent, and the like. If we as a group tried, it could probably be ready within the month. Not a bad front page article for November 26, if I do say so myself. Kaiser matias (talk) 06:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Bruins task force

Stormtracker94 (talk · contribs) has agreed that Wikipedia:WikiProject Boston Bruins should be a task force. It's got six members as a project, so it should have enough activity. Do I have to go through any official motions to make it a task force?-Wafulz (talk) 23:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't think so, Sweden and New Jersey task forces were started at the same time after a discussion about the idea. --Krm500 (talk) 00:03, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Alright. Could a template wizard add a "bruins task force" option to {{Ice hockey}}? Please and thanks.-Wafulz (talk) 00:28, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Template is protected, you need an admin. --Krm500 (talk) 00:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I could put it in myself, but I don't know what the code would be.-Wafulz (talk) 20:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Should be working fine now. Test it on Boston Bruins and it seems to be all good. If someone wants to make an image more similar to the Devils one, then let me know and I can add it in. Right now its just the logo, which may or may not meet fair use. -Djsasso (talk) 22:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
As expected, the logo was removed. Anyone want to make a BOS image like the NJD imagine we use for the devils? -Djsasso (talk) 15:42, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Sammy Pahlsson birthplace

I see more references to Ornskol than to Ange. Is Ornskol an exonym? See this direct quote from Brian Burke: [1] Alaney2k (talk) 22:11, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Nope, they are two different places. As I mentioned, what I found is that he was born in Ange but grew up in Ornskol. I linked both in his player page. I believe Ornskol is where MODO is located which was the team he played for before coming to North America. So what it seems like is that he left home to play in the MODO system. -Djsasso (talk) 22:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Now isn't that properly Örnsköldsvik, ( Sverige :-) )? BTW, why did you take out the pronunciation? Are you policing that too? Is it 'against the rules'? I have not taken out the distance course on IPA. (yet) I see the phonetic used elsewhere. Should I tell you where .... hmm? Alaney2k (talk) 22:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I actually already replaced it. It was an innocent bystander. I accidentally pasted over it when I put in the source etc. -Djsasso (talk) 22:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I humbly apologize. When we find a phonetic, what is the real policy vis-a-vis reality? Alaney2k (talk) 22:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I am not really sure what the policy is on pronunciation. I think we are supposed to use IPA, but I am not positive. -Djsasso (talk) 22:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
But not unsurprisingly I found a link Wikipedia:Manual of Style (pronunciation). -Djsasso (talk) 22:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
According to that phonetic is okay... but use IPA too. Alaney2k (talk) 22:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Samuel is born and raised in Ånge, and brought the cup there during the summer (images, video). After the celebrations in Ånge he had a party in Örnsköldsvik with it, the next day Selänne received the Cup and it's entourage in Finland. --Krm500 (talk) 23:11, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

He played hockey in Ånge with the local hockey club/team Ånge IK which is currently active in a division of the third-level league (Division 1). According to Eurohockey link the team was in "Division 2" during the 1992-93 season when Samuel picked up a couple of games, at the age of 15 to 16. Division 2 was the third-level league in Sweden until 1998-99, so they still play at the same level today. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 01:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
What does 'Ångeborna välkomnade Ångesonen Samuel Påhlsson' mean? That's in the images site. Alaney2k (talk) 04:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Roughly means 'The citizens of Ånge welcomed "the son of Ånge" Samuel Påhlsson (home)'. Rationale for reverting your edit Alaney; "Ornskol" is wrong, many papers or whatever (North American sources) often mistake place of birth for the team the player played for, for example I've seen Henrik Lundqvist's POB being listed as Frolunda. Frölunda is a borough of Gothenburg, if he was born there his POB would be Gothenburg, Sweden. However he was born in Åre, far far away from Gothenburg and Frölunda..... --Krm500 (talk) 05:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
No problem on the revert. We should put a note about Ornksol on the site though. I don't live anywhere near enough to there to know the relationship, and obviously many people think it is the same place. Otherwise, us eds will continue to mess up. Continue this at Talk:Samuel Påhlsson Alaney2k (talk) 15:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
It's rougly 250km between Örnsköldsvik and Ånge. He moved there to play for Modo, there no other connection. The sources that say he is born in "Ornskol" are not reliable sources and can therefor not be used on wikipedia. --Krm500 (talk) 16:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. This includes NHL.com and the Anaheim Ducks website. Even HockeyDB.com says he is born in Ornskoldsvik. The Eurohockey.net site is more correct, on Samuel Påhlsson it reads "Borgsjö", which is the parish where Ånge is located. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 18:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)