Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hiking Trails

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[edit] Grand Canyon Trails (cont.)

Im an avid hiker of the Grand canyon (having done all but three, and total having been in the canyon over 45 times) so Im goin to work on the Grand canyon trails. Ive created all the trails pages, and Im workin on getting all the pages to be laid out the same (the only difference being between above and below rim trails). I have tagged all the trails under this project and asked for them to be mapped (i dont know how to do that yet). First Im goin to lay out my basic outline for all the trails (incluiding the Trails template), this should take me a couple of days, then Im goin to go to each trail and write them using my outline. This should take me a good month, cuz its a lot of writing, but ill try to write the most important ones first (which means the below rim ones). After I have completely written all the articles, im goin to put each one for peer review, and see where they stand. From the looks of things this project looks pretty dormant, but if there is anyone who would like to help, i would love it. Also im open to any suggestions or good sources, etc. Hopefully everything will go well and we will have a better wikipedia!!!
Gonzo fan2007 talk ♦ contribs 07:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Units of Measure

Why are you using mi in the template? I have never seen distances written this way. The MOS also gives: "The reader should see a space between the value and the unit symbol, for example "25 kg" not "25kg". Use   for the space (25 kg) to ensure that it does not break lines." as a guideline. Rmhermen 18:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I made the changes you pointed out. I got rid of the subscript and put the space between the unit of measurement and the measurement itself. As for miles, I am using the abbreviation "mi" to distinguish it from "m", or meters. Thanks for pointing this out to us.VegitaU 19:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I wasn't clearer. I was refering to the subscripting, not the use of mi as an abbreviation which I think is ok. It may not even be necessary to abbreviate it - there is plenty of room on those lines for a spelled out "miles". Rmhermen 20:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template Values

Hello. I had recently added a short hiking trail (Alum Cave Bluff Trail) in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park to Wikipedia, not knowing that your project here was underway. I have added a template to the page, but for some reason the template is displaying that the elevation change, high point, and low point are all unknown, when I have the figures for them in place. Can you explain why this is happening? I am pretty new to Wikipedia, but I think I'm doing it correctly. Also, could you tell me how to create a map to display in the template, or is that not necessary for a trail so short? I appreciate you help. Blinutne 19:30, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure thing. The reason the values weren't coming up was due to a difference in the Variable names (e.g. ElevChange) and what appears in the template (e.g. Elevation Change). All the values are available on the Project Main Page. Basically, to put a specific Elevation Change in:
|ElevChange=2,700 [[Foot (unit of length)|ft]]
needs to be typed for the proper display on the template.
|HighPoint= and |LowPoint=
are the Variable names for those values. As for creating a map, that's up to you. If you have a non-copywrited map or one you have personally created, it would be an excellent feature to display, but it's not overly important as long as the trailhead starting and ending points are there. Thanks for your addition, by the way. If you want, you can add your name to the Contributors list on the Project page. Also, I will add the Alum Cave Bluff Trail to the list of project pages. Thank you again!
VegitaU 21:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Heh, I see. Well thank you for clarifying those points and adding the trailhead into the template, it fits in much better there. There are a few more trails that I am quite familiar with in the area, and I will add what I can, but I don't have photos of any other hiking trails, so they may be somewhat lacking. Again, though, thanks for your help. Blinutne 11:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elevation Change

Can we clarify that the elevation change is net or total? For most hikers the total gain is the most important number, rather than the net gain between the starting and ending points. Also, in some instances there is a difference depending on the direction traveled. These pertain more to short dayhiking trails than long distance trails, so might be acoomodated best with a separate template. In ancy case, good project. Cheers, -Will Beback 22:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I've tried to put total elevation change figures wherever possible, but some trail sites don't specify what kind they are using. For example, the elevation change for the Appalachian Trail is 90 miles and obviously the total elevation change, but the change for the Skyline to the Sea Trail is 2,600 feet; the net change between the highest and lowest points because the trail doesn't have any major rises or falls between trailheads... the trail is primarily sloped in one direction. I've also ignored positive or negative figures because, as you said, it's different depending on what direction you take. I don't distinguish between elevation gain and elevation loss, instead use elevation change. I would like to hear any other ideas on this or what anyone feels we could do to improve this. Thanks for bringing this up.VegitaU 01:34, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
One argument for using the total elevation change figure is that it allows for a user to make the kind of comparism that many of us do routinely, which, for a single direction climb, is to look at the ratio of the elevation change to the length of the hike. Looking at a map and making this calculation one way for a trail I'm going to hike, I know from experience that 1:10 is a moderate but steady grade, 1:7 is going to feel like a real uphill, and 1:4 or 1:5 is definitely going to be a serious climb. (I'm talking day hiking or backpacking, not technical climbing, of course.) The ratio of elevation change to total length for the John Muir Trail (15/211=1:14) and the Wonderland Trail (8/93=1:12) quite accurately reflect the fact that these babies involve pretty steady ups and downs. I must say, though, that the ratio for the AT (90/2700 equals 1:30) doesn't seem quite right. I am not familiar with the trail south of Connecticut, but in New Hampshire and Maine, I would guess that the ratio is less than 1:15. Rickbb 04:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Another point related to elevation change: the trail description lists the average slope as 18% -- but if you divide the length by the elevation change you get less than 10%. So either the listed number is wrong, or there is in fact a lot of up and down (which I doubt) or there is something else going on that I can't think of. -- Ken

[edit] New category

I just finished a series of the five hiking trails that lead to the summit of Mount Le Conte in Tennessee. Because of this I have created a new category for them to be placed in and would like to know if it should be added to the project page. There aren't anymore pages to go in it, but all of the trails do have the template on them. Blinutne 04:30, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure, please go ahead and add it if you like.VegitaU 04:49, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shortcut

In addition to thanking whoever it was who decided to use my (slightly-out-of-focus) picture of an AT blaze in the userbox, I'm letting everyone know I just created a shortcut for the project page: WP:TRAILS. Daniel Case 06:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grand Canyon trails

Hello! I'd like to contribute more to the hiking project, and since I hike the Grand Canyon, that is where I'd like to start. I've already added a few, including Hermit Trail and Tonto Trail. I am lacking good citations (I've made a few), but I am reviewing my accumulated research materials (books, trail guides, etc.) to beef them up. I'd certainly like a critique of what's there and am willing to take any suggestions to provide some really good, comprehensive articles about a place I love! Notary137 09:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

In addition to the above, I'd like to list Grand Canyon trails in its own article, List of trails in Grand Canyon National Park. See my discussion topic in Talk:Grand Canyon National Park. I think it is a good idea since there are 25 separate trails within the park, and it will help manage links between them and provide information on the trail system in general. I hope to create all the trail articles necessary (with as few stubs as possible) by October 7th. Notary137 19:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I have added the list article as stated above. Notary137 06:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I have created a common template for trails in the Grand Canyon at Template:Grand Canyon trails. I'm still working towards creating all the articles, some will be stubs. Notary137 04:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map and image?

Can we see if it would be possible in the template to have space for both a standard picture and a map? (see {{Infobox city}} and {{Infobox Bridge}}, for example). I would do it myself if I were surer with template syntax. Daniel Case 04:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Active Wikiproject?

I noticed that at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory/Culture/Sports this project is noted as inactive. This will not effect what I'm working on, but is that the case? Notary137 05:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 14:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 19:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Hiking Trails Project Template by State

I have added the template HikingProject to all the pages in the state trails categories through i think Idaho. Please finish up what I have started (I'll do a few more states when I find time) Leif902 20:19, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Backpacking

Hello,

As part of the Trails WikiProject, You all may be interested in the newly formed WikiProject Backpacking, an effort to increase the quality of Backpacking related articles and media on Wikipedia. I hope that we may work together with other closely related WikiProjects (this one included) to make camping and packing articles the best they can be!
Regards,
-Leif902 13:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 You're invited to be a part of WikiProject Backpacking, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to backpacking. To accept this invitation, click here!


[edit] Not a Travel Guide

WP:NOT specifies that wikipedia is not a travel guide. How does this apply to hiking trail articles? What level of detail should editors go into?

I think a style guide is needed on the wikiproject page to specify what sections should be included and what should be excluded to avoid being a travel guide. (This comes out of edits to Overland Track) --Ozhiker 09:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Diagrams

WP:TRAIL is a template system originally designed for trains that is also being used for public transit systems, canals, and roadways. I have put examples using the railway icons in Galloping Goose Regional Trail and Lochside Regional Trail. Icons could be created specifically for trails if there is interest. Vagary 10:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

you might like to see discussion in Talk:Long-distance footpaths in the UK.ClemRutter 18:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moving {{Trails}} to {{Hiking trail}}

You may be interested to know I have proposed that the Template:Trails be moved to Template:Hiking trail. Please discuss this change at Template talk:Trails#Requested move rather than here. -- Patleahy (talk) 05:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Infobox Canadian Trails

Template:Infobox Canadian Trails has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Patleahy (talk) 22:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coordinates

Folks writing about trails may be interested in the use of coordinates in tables containing lists of features, on articles like Manchester Ship Canal and Netherton Tunnel Branch Canal.

Pages marked with {{coord}} can be exported as KML (for use in Google Earth, for example) via Brian Suda's site, in this format:

http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/geo/get-geo.php?type=kml&uri=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherton_Tunnel_Branch_Canal

The same URL can be pasted into Google Maps as a search, and will show the locations, as push-pins on a map

I've requested a template, to create such links for any page on which it appears. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 13:28, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The template {{kml}} was created - and promptly nominated for deletion. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 22:07, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{Trails}} listed for deletion

I listed {{Trails}} for deletion. This is just a redirect to {{Infobox Hiking trail}} and not an actual template. If you have an opinion please share it at Redirects for discussion instead of here. -- Patleahy (talk) 19:10, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Appropriate scope should be narrow for an Encyclopedia

I am searching for a place to contribute to the web's content on hiking trails, and as a 'believer' in public-domain content (and its variations), I naturally found both this project and Kildare79's proposal for a separate 'wikitrails' wiki over on Wikimedia. While trying to decide which seemed more logical, I came up with what I hope is a helpful clarification of this project. Note that I don't intend criticism, just a hopefully constructive clarification of what place Hiking Trails have within an encyclopedia. This is fully aligned with the stated purpose and scope on the project page, but those are currently terse and thus ambiguous.

I think this project should limit its scope to the kind of culturally important trails that would be in an encyclopedia -- as the scope says, 'named' trails. This is not a small subject, since 'culturally important' could be interpreted on a local basis. In the San Francisco bay area, the Skyline-to-the-Sea trail is pretty famous, while the trails of the Purisima Creek Redwoods Open Space Preserve certainly aren't famous by name. And while that Open Space Preserve does warrant its page in Wikipedia, the miscellaneous trails within it don't.

The route to Half Dome in Yosemite National Park is another good example. The 'Half Dome Trail' starts well into the backcountry. So in order to document it, one would have to choose what other trails need to be take to get to it. The Vernal Falls trail or Misty Trail? Or should there be an expansive discussion of the John Muir Trail and all other other combinations that could be taken? As a 'named' trail, there is no such thing as the Half Dome Trail.

And that point to the general problem: most of the trails people hike aren't 'named', per se. If one goes to Yosemite (or to Purisima, etc.) one is almost certainly going to traverse several linked trails.

With the steadily lowering prices of GPS units and increasing interest in geotagged everything, the interest in this topic will undoubtedly rise, and it makes sense to make sure people's energies aren't wasted. There should be a firm guide to those scope within an encyclopedia, and a guide to other more appropriate fora for people that wish to document their favorite local hikes. I suggest that the Wikitrails project become the appropriate target for 'lesser' trails and more of a guide-book style, and that the template for this project contain space for redirection, when appropriate. MrRedwood 03:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

FYI: about a year ago I tried writing up a hiking trail on WikiTravel and they told me it was out of scope. I agree that a proper location is sorely needed. Vagary 04:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I contributed a little to this project a few months ago, but ended up with the same opinion as MrRedwood and Vagary. Since then I've been running and growing the Mediawiki-based Hike Database from January 2007. Its sole purpose is to be a free, editable hiking guide describing hikes, trailheads, campsites, and natural areas. MrRedwood, I'm also a resident in the Bay Area, so a lot of the content I've put up is based centered there. See for example the Skyline to the Sea Trail page I worked on a few months ago. Please take a look around. We always welcome new contributors. Miguel.v 15:45, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Here is Kildare79's proposal which was mentioned above: meta:Wikitrails.
I agree that Wikipedia is not a good place for most articles on hiking trails. About two months ago when I moved Template:Infobox Hiking trail I reviewed all the articles which use it. I believe most of them will never contain any information other than a trail description. This information is not appropriate in an encyclopaedia. Rather either keeping or deleting these articles I think that Wikipedia and the hiking community would better served if these articles were moved to a different wiki. At a hiking specific wiki they could benefit from a more sympatric set of guidelines.
I also agree that there are notable trails which should be the subject of an article. I find it hard to come up with an appropriate guideline. Perhaps we should say that hiking trails which have been documented in sources other than trail guides or trails which are the subject of substantial works on themselves alone are worthy of inclusion.
I was not familiar with Hike Database. It looks promising however we could not simply move articles from here to there because these two wikis have incompatible licences. I think a GFDL compatible wiki where trails which are not appropriate for Wikipedia may be the answer. A personal concern is that such a wiki would take away support from the many excellent local websites which also encourage trail maintenance and environmental advocacy.
-- PatLeahy (talk) 00:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Hike Database chose the Creative Commons License for reasons similar to Wikitravel's. In practice, this hasn't been a problem, since overlap with Wikipedia mostly occurs with things like the history and ecology of natural areas. The vast majority of Hike Database describes things that are useful in a guide, but not an encyclopedia, like how many cars can park at the start- and end-points of a hike, which turns to take at trail intersections on a hike, where there are good places to camp, etc. For topics that do overlap, it's easy enough to paraphrase from online sources. Miguel.v 20:06, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikitravel makes a good argument for using a CC license. My point about the licenses, was that there are many articles in Wikipedia (e.g. Cape Final Trail) which could be moved to a better home if a compatible one existed. -- PatLeahy (talk) 20:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UK National Trails and U.S. National Trails System

I have proposed renaming National Trails and National Trails System. Please see Talk:National Trails#UK National Trails and U.S. National Trails System. Please add your opinions there rather than here so that the conversation happens in one place. Thanks -- PatLeahy (talk) 20:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geolinks alteration

Alteration of Geolinks is under discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Geographical_coordinates#Proposals. Changes or deletion are likely soon. (SEWilco 19:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC))

[edit] GA hiking trail

Just to let you know that Leeds Country Way is now an official Good Article. Are there any Featured Article hiking trails, or other GAs? Is there a list or category for them? In nominating it at WP:GAC I struggled to find a classification: I'd have used "Geography/Miscellaneous" if it had existed, but finally went for "Everyday life/Recreation/Miscellaneous". PamD 09:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Metacomet-Monadnock Trail

Been putting a lot of work into the Metacomet-Monadnock Trail and associated features. Let me know what y'all think. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 07:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hiking trail infobox suggestion

I'm wondering if the "Trailheads" part of the infobox should be reworded. . .it's too deceptive. What you're really talking about here are terminus locations, not trailheads. For instance, the Appalachian Trail has thousands of trailheads, not just the trailheads on Springer Mountain and Mount Katahdin. Furthering the confusion here is the idea that "trailhead" means "a place to park my car" to many hikers. (The idea of the summit of Mount Katahdin as a "trailhead" seems preposterous). Recommend changing back to "start/end points." --Pgagnon999 (talk) 15:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Start/end points is more familiar in the UK, so I'd welcome that change. I wonder if there should also be a "circular centred on..." option, for trails which form a continuous loop? PamD (talk) 16:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA categories

If you're nominating a hiking trail for Good Article, there's now a more suitable classification for it. I've been having a discussion at User talk:Geometry guy about GA categories for long-distance paths (he moved Leeds Country Way), and there's now a new Good Article class of "Geography and Places / Geography / Nature reserves, conservation areas and countryside routes", which is probably a neater fit than anything which was there before (though there are some long-distance paths which aren't really "countryside", eg Capital Ring). In Good Article Nominations it's just "Geography and Places/ Geography" with a note "Includes: Bodies of water and water formations; Geographers and explorers; Geography; Islands; Landforms; Nature reserves, conservation areas and countryside routes; Urban and historical sites". I think it's an improvement. At present there's one GA hiking trail, and another nomination (South West Coast Path). PamD (talk) 16:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Florida Trail

Hi. I'm organizing an effort to improve coverage of the Florida Trail in Wikipedia. I'm a member of the Florida Trail Association living in Central Florida. If anyone wants to help organize the effort, please leave me a note. Carl M. Anglesea (talk) 21:06, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA for another hiking trail

South West Coast Path is now a Good Article - as well as being a fabulous walk! PamD (talk) 23:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why "hiking" trails?

Greetings. Most "hiking" trails are multi-use trails. Why characterize them as "hiking" trails? Why not expand the scope of this project to include all trails? --Una Smith (talk) 14:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trails.com has purchased Topozone.com

I just thought I would let everyone know (if you haven't already heard) that Trails.com has purchased Topozone.com, and thus Topozone.com is now subscription-only. If you have any articles that reference or externally link to Topozone, I suggest replacing them with a free topographic map service. Bms4880 (talk) 20:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)