Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Greater Manchester/Archive 15

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Ceremonial posts

Hello again,

Just to let you know I've been busy creating a High Sheriff of Greater Manchester article, to bring us inline with the rest of the British Isles. On my search for material, I came across www.gmlo.org, which is a rather useful source for the project. --Jza84 |  Talk  00:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, David Wilmot would be getting on in years... Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I know! Well spotted! Me thinks we need a disambiguation there! --Jza84 |  Talk  12:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Merge?

Came across City Centre (Manchester ward) and wondered if it should be deleted. Its contents appears in Manchester City Centre. --Jza84 |  Talk  10:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I've changed it into a redirect. Oldelpaso (talk) 10:42, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, good call. --Jza84 |  Talk  11:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Apparently...

Greater Manchester was abolished in the 80s ([1]). It's always Oldhamers (we have some rather vocal groups here)... I'll try to convince the user otherwise, but ask that you can watch Kezzer37 (talk · contribs). Thanks, --Jza84 |  Talk  11:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

List of people from Bolton

One of our project's short term aims is to elevate this article to FL status. There's not been an awful lot of activity on the article recently (25 edits so far in 2008). This does seem like a bit of a waste since it seems close to FL, in fact the only barrier I can see at the moment is the short lead (criterion 2). So I'm asking for ideas, what do people think? How could we improved? Should we be bold and throw the article straight into the WP:FLC process now and see what happens? Nev1 (talk) 22:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure the IMDB is/was given as an example of an unreliable open source, but this needs clarifying. I think we've discussed images in the past too. --Jza84 |  Talk  23:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Articles for deletion?

I'm a little bit concerned about Mcyssjm2 (talk · contribs). I believe some of the pages he's contributed to need deleting, namely:

--Jza84 |  Talk  12:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The Jim McMahon (politician) article is certainly missing a lot of citations and looks a like personal research. It also needs a bit of a clean up (I'm not sure why most of the text in within a thumbnail). The other articles aren't too bad, just a little stubby that's all (in my opinion at least...) —PolishName 20:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I think the main question here is are any of these notable enough? There's been a previous debate on the notability of councillors resulting in the deletion of several articles (I can't remember where the rest are as it's a long time since I came across it). Even the Roy Oldham article, about the leader of Tameside council and the longest serving councillor in Britain I think, was deleted and he is more notable than either of the politicians mentioned here. Also, councillors' articles (oddly enough, mostly from Oldham) have previously attracted a lot of vandalism and POV pushing. I'll also draw Aileen Bell (politician) to attention as I don't think she satisfies WP:NOTABLE.
Regarding the wards, I think they should be merged into the Failsworth article, rather than clutter up the project with stubs on small wards that are not likely to be greatly expanded. I can't see them being expanded without duplicating information already in the Failsworth article. Nev1 (talk) 23:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
FYI another councillor, Pav Akhtar, just about survived two runs at AfD. First and second. Mr Stephen (talk) 23:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I think the case of Pav Akhtar is slightly different; Akhtar is notable for reasons other than being a local councillor. The people highlighted here are 'just' local politicians and notability is not asserted. Nev1 (talk) 23:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I would delete all of them (I AfD'd PA and stand by my nom). WP:NOT a soapbox, free webspace, etc. Mr Stephen (talk) 23:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I think we should get rid of the politicians (and the articles too) and try to integrate the info from the wards into the Failsworth article and have them as redirects. Does anyone disagree? Nev1 (talk) 00:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Not me. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  00:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Nor me. Not sure about the articles though ... ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I guess you guys are right; delete them ;) —PolishName 07:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Since we've got 5 people agreeing here, and no one disagreeing, I've gone ahead and turned the ward pages into redirects after adding a couple of sentences to the Failsworth article. Nev1 (talk) 00:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Good call. --Jza84 |  Talk  00:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm tempted to try and get the politicians speedily deleted as I can't see a debate elsewhere being very productive. Nev1 (talk) 00:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I've just reread WP:PROD (I'd confused it with WP:AFD) and have prodded the articles. Should be sorted soon. Nev1 (talk) 00:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
My understanding is that you only have to take it to AfD if another editor decides to remove the prod tag, and I can't see that happening in this case. But stranger things have happened I suppose. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Famous last words, User:81.152.188.90 has removed the tag and reinstated unsourced information. Next stop AfD. Nev1 (talk) 20:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Bundle them all up into one discussion, I think. Also for your bundle: Barbara Dawson. Mr Stephen (talk) 20:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent)Done. I'll have a look myself, but I'll ask others to have a quick scour for GM councillors who could be added to this debate. Nev1 (talk) 21:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The result of the AfD was "delete all". Nev1 (talk) 16:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Sadly only the articles though. The politicians are still there. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 16:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
One step at a time ;-) Nev1 (talk) 19:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Our logo

Just thought I'd let everyone know that the Greater Manchester Army Cardet Force has a very simillar badge to us! There's even one for sale on eBay (nothing to do with me guys, just showing it as an example!) --Jza84 |  Talk  00:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Irwell Valley

I've long thought that Wikipedia could do with an entry on the Irwell Valley considering it's importance to the area industrially and now as a nature trail - so I've created a basic page, copied lots of text from other articles, and just thought I'd bring it to the attention of others. I'm going to have my tea now, I shall continue work on it later on :) Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

That looks like a great start. Well done! --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

A question for our new administrator

... or indeed any administrator. Are there any of the GM tagged articles that are unwatched? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi! I'm struggling for Wiki-time this week, so my editting abilities have been impaired. However, I've still got time for a a quick answer... in short, I'm not sure! I haven't quite worked out how to find and seek unwatched articles amongst some very (expectedly) mediocre buttons! I'll have to get back to you on that! --Jza84 |  Talk  23:29, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that it's actually possible to do this, at least with the current set of tools. Basically, Special:UnwatchedPages (which is restricted to admins) only has a static list on it, which are regenerated every so often. It only seems to have the first ~ 1000 entries on it, which currently doesn't get out of the numbers (lots of entries on asteroids have been added recently, which has probably clogged it up). Mike Peel (talk) 16:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Seems like there's someone already working on this. [2] --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I have a supplementary question. Can administrators see who's watching a page? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:30, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

If they can, then it's not easy to work out! To me, it looks like additional "block", "protect" and "delete" buttons, ONLY. :S --Jza84 |  Talk  18:13, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Aren't there also some extra special pages that you can see? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
No, they can't. The reason why is partly explained on Wikipedia:PEREN#Create_a_counter_of_people_watching_a_page. I guess the reason why it doesn't exist solely for admins is that no-one's thought up a use for it that's compelling enough to write such a tool.
The main buttons I find myself using are the delete and protect buttons (in that order). Block is also useful every so often, as is the ability to view deleted pages. While there's a couple of other bits, those are the functions you gain when you become an admin. Mike Peel (talk) 18:45, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Ah, OK, thanks Mike. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Yorkshirian

What do people think about the latest work by Yorkshirian (talk · contribs)? He's a self-styled traditional counties advocate. I'm not happy with edits like this to our highest priority article. --Jza84 |  Talk  01:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I may be missing something, but I don't see the problem. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, take a look at his last 4 or 5 edits, and summaries. See also Talk:Greater Manchester. --Jza84 |  Talk  01:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Yorkshirian's views have no place here. His history shows a disregard for the truth and he seems to believe Yorkshire still exists as something more than it really is. It's a shame he's chosen to attack our county, why not attack the West Midlands or Merseyside as they are in the same position as ours. ┌Joshii┐└chat┘ 16:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I hate to say this, but I really don't see the problem either. Greater Manchester is a metropolitan county, and is a ceremonial county - I can't see disagreement on this point. The question is all about is it "a former administrative area" or not. Well, he's provided a reference for it, and quite clearly there is no County Council doing any administration across the area any more; whilst there are joint bodies populated by representatives from the Metropolitan Borough councils, these aren't covered by Acts of Parliament or the like as far as I'm aware. The best example for this is for the joint body that deals with waste - IIRC Wigan MBC have nothing to do with it. It's one of those marvellous grey areas that we get every so often. I wouldn't have a problem with him saying the same sort of thing (as long as it's referenced) about any of the other Metropolitan Counties. It's also the case that Greater Manchester is right next to Yorkshire, so he's probably simply more interested in a more local topic for him.
As far as I can see, it's got nothing to do with traditional counties, as he's not trying to say "Lancashire" or "Cheshire" at any point. Fingerpuppet (talk) 19:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Cheesden Valley

I've added a bit to Cheesden Valley, I wondered if anyone could have a quick shufty and see if it's allright, and possibly add anything to it? I plan to add co-ordinates to the mills at some point but not right now as I'm lying on the sofa with my lappy, and the cat sleeping on my chest. Not exactly ideal! Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:09, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

A nice start, but I don't think the payrent.co.uk reference will stand up to scrutiny as a reliable source. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I may have to amble down to the library for better sources then :) Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I really like the picture next to the lead, but could it be bigger? The peer review of Kersal Moor suggested using {{wide image}} for panorama images, perhaps at the end of the article. Nev1 (talk) 23:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I added a panorama, I'm not sure it looks right though - my monitor is 1680 wide so it looks a little odd. Is there an option to automatically size it? Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I really don't like that panorama at the end of the article, but perhaps it's just me. I also think that the image in the lead should be a bit bigger, perhaps 300px? I think the MoS advice is only to avoid setting image sizes to less than 300px, as that's the highest resolution that a user can set via preferences. I could be completely wrong though. :lol: --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree, so I changed it back but enlarged the image slightly. The annoying thing, the really annoying thing is that I planned to go up there again and take that picture again but with better equipment and from a better angle, now they've built sodding great windmills all over it, totally ruined the view :( Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh, that's where they are. You can see them from miles away. Mr Stephen (talk) 23:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
"There are signs that human activity was taking place in around 8000BC." The source (I'm assuming megalithic portal is the source) doesn't give the date of the activity, it gives the range of the Mesolithic so I think that sentence could be dropped as it's slightly misleading. Also, do you know if Wind Hill is in or around the valley? This link mentions Bronze Age activity. Nev1 (talk) 01:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

"There are signs of human activity in Heywood dating from about 8000 BC." The connection needs to be made between Heywood and the Cheesden Valley. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject Merseyside

Hello everyone, I hope this isn't considered spam but it seemed like a suitable place to ask around and see if there might be people here who would be interested in supporting and contributing to a Wikiproject focusing on Merseyside. I'm trying to gauge if there is suitable interest before making a formal proposal. Cheers Zenichiro (talk) 19:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The Manchester terrier

I saw a book on the Manchester Terrier the other day and thought I'd look to see if there was an article about it. Of course there is one called Manchester Terrier, which is embarrassingly badly written, with a large chunk of text plagiarised from an American website. That's assuming they didn't copy it from wikipedia of course. However, I thought it may be of interest to the project members all the same, especially as it's considered an endangered breed in the UK. I'll have a go at improving it when I get some time. Richerman (talk) 16:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

AfD section?

I cam across an article Cheadle Bleachworks, that is being considered for deletion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cheadle Bleachworks, it looked like it should be part of your project so I added that, and I came here to see if you have a listing for project articles that were in an AfD and found this link Wikipedia:WikiProject_Greater_Manchester#For_Deletion but it does not seem to go anywhere other than your main project page. --Captain-tucker (talk) 10:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)