Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany

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[edit] Cities subproject

I am pleased to announce that as of today, every city, town and municipality in Germany has an article in English Wikipedia! A big thank you to all contributors!

In the next phase of the subproject cities, we will improve the articles by adding infoboxes. Everyone is invited to help. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany/Cities for instructions. Markussep Talk 18:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Bravo - good job. STTW (talk) 19:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

--

It is pleasant that there are so many articles about German localities. Unfortunately most of them are stubs and include errors. For example most localities, that are "Gemeinden" (municipalities) in Germany are described as "towns" in the English wiki. Of Course a "Gemeinde" could also be a "Stadt" (town, city), but mostly a location that is called Gemeinde is a "Dorf" (village) in Germany.

Classification

  • Weiler (hamlet) - location smaller than a village but larger than a grange. A Weiler is not independent. It belongs to a municipality (village, town, city) or to a district of the municipality. A Weiler has usually no church, tavern, or else.
  • Dorf (village) - a Dorf can be an independent municipality or a district (suburb) of a town or city. It is a locality that has not the status of a Stadt. It is larger than a Weiler, has got a church, a tavern, small stores, even supermarkets, a town hall or an administravive office (if it is a district). The population of a Dorf can vary from a few hundres to several thousands of people.
  • Stadt (town, city) - a Stadt is a municipality that has a special status. Most of the Städte (pl.) got their title in the middle age, several hundred years ago. The status assured privilegs like the market right (ever), the right of own administration, the right to build a (town/city) wall, sometimes the right to mint and issue coins, etc.

The status Stadt was awarded by the souvereign in middle age. Today it is a decision of the Ministries of State.

In 1974 for instance the Ministry of State of Baden-Württemberg has awarded the status Stadt to the municipality of Mössingen. Before Mössingen got the status of a Stadt, it was a Landgemeinde (= rural municipality = village with a municipal council). Today Mössingen is a Stadtgemeinde (= urban municipality = municipality with the status of a Stadt) with a town council. In the state of Baden-Württemberg a municipality must have minimum a population of 4500 to apply for the status Stadt. But the minimum of population is not the only condition to get the status. So a municipality with a population more than 4500 does not automatically become a Stadt in Baden-Württemberg.

However, there are municipalities with a population less than 4500 people that got the status of a Stadt. Those municipalities have got the status in middle age, because of that the Ministry of State does not withdraw their status (historical Stadtrecht). Those towns are often located in rural areas, where there was no increase of population during the age of industrialization.

In Germany there is no distinction between a town or a city, both are called Stadt. However, Städte with a population ex 100,000 are regarded as cities. I think the British distinction of town and city is plausible, but the distinction in the U.S. is confusing (different from state to state). For instance the City of Maza in North Dakota has only 5 residents. In my opinion this is ridiculous.

In Germany there is another classification of Stadt. There are types, that mark no special status:

  • Landstadt (rural town) - Stadt with less than 5000 residents, (often historical Stadtrecht)
  • Kleinstadt (small town) - Stadt with at least 5,000 but less than 20,000 residents
  • Mittelstadt (middle town) - Stadt with at least 20,000 but less than 100,000 residents
  • Großstadt (large town, city) - Stadt with at least 100,000 residents
  • Millionenstadt (million city) - Stadt with at least one million residents

--MaiusGermanicus (talk) 17:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I think most involved are aware of the town problem, which is historical in the way these articles have developed. I have tried to fix it for Bavaria some time ago, but ran out of time. I might start again on the other states. Agathoclea (talk) 17:58, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Flag of Germany - help needed

For the last few months I've been working on Flag of Germany. In July it looked like this and now it looks like this. In working on this article, I've drawn on a number of articles that can now possibly be merged into this one (see various mergefrom requests now in the article) plus a number of articles from the German wiki, and a few other sources, while at the same time trying to provide as many supporting references as possible. I am very interested in getting this article up to GA (or even FA?) standard so I would appreciate it if people could proofread it and/or expand/clarify any points that may need attention. After working on this for the last few months, I'd really really need some fresh eyes on this article. Thanks - 52 Pickup (talk) 21:01, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Not long ago, I managed to get this article past GA review. If anyone has any thoughts on how the article can be improved further up to FA level, then come forward. I also set up a peer review (see link on article's talk page) in an attempt to generate more feedback but that is pretty quiet. The varying standards of other FA flag articles doesn't suggesting anything else to me. At the moment all I can think of is adding more and more citations. - 52 Pickup (deal) 15:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The article looks very good, and has even features I did not know yet (proposed alternative flags). Maybe the order should be re-arranged, with history coming before technical details or flag days, which result from history. As there are precedents in Wikipedia:Featured_articles#Awards.2C_decorations_and_vexillology, but also in Wikipedia:Former_featured_articles#Awards.2C_decorations_and_vexillology, maybe you should just put it up at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates, and we'll see what is asked by the reviewers? -- Matthead  Discuß   19:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
There are no set rules for the ordering of sections within flag articles, but it appears that technical details are close to the top (eg. see FA articles Flag of Portugal and Flag of Australia) but flag days can possibly be moved down. The GA/A/FA requirements for heraldry/vexillology articles are not clear (although the requirements for A-class are not really clear anywhere - i don't even know if it would qualify for A-class here at WPGER). But if you look at GA-Class heraldry and vexillology articles, A-Class heraldry and vexillology articles and FA-Class heraldry and vexillology articles you can see that the standards of the flag articles listed here are not all that uniform. I would like to nominate the article for FA some time soon, but I think it is best to make sure that the article spends enough time at peer review since that appears to be a pseudo-requirement for FA - see Wikipedia:Peer review/Flag of Germany. There are already a couple of outstanding issues there that I need to address, but real world committments are getting in my way at the moment. - 52 Pickup (deal) 07:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Alrighty, after all the feedback that has come in since running the peer review, and unearthing lots of extra supporting documents, I have finally bitten the bullet and nominated the article for FA - Nomination page - 52 Pickup (deal) 10:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
====> still help needed ? please see: [1] and [2] regards Tom --Dan Wesson (talk) 06:55, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that. A separate section on symbols used in the flag was suggested by the FA review. The tricky part is figuring out what belongs in the flag article and what in the separate Coat of arms of Germany article. Unfortunately I will be going on a long break very soon so I won't be able to make this suggested change at this point, but these links should help when I get back. The review is not closed yet, but a good copy-edit has been called for. - 52 Pickup (deal) 16:19, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Oktoberfest celebrations

I think this page should be looked at very soon. A vandal has clearly edited without it being noticed. The info sections appear to be fine, but the introduction has had "minor" changes. Boomsta (talk) 14:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Reverted, thanks for the note. In the future, you may want to consider fixing this yourself, see Help:Reverting. Happy editing, Kusma (talk) 14:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Athanasius Kircher FAR

Athanasius Kircher has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Nishkid64 (talk) 05:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tagging

User:Daniel Chiswick is tagging articles on the list of NPOV issues on the Wikiproject Germany page with NPOV tags. I'm sure he is trying to be helpful in telling the general Wikipedia editors that these articles have problems but it doesn't help that his mass tagging makes no mention of what is wrong with these articles. In short, he is trying to help but he is not helping just sort of spamming. 128.227.67.253 (talk) 05:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I was just given a list of tasks to do, so I'm trying to help. Daniel Chiswick (talk) 06:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

As I understand it, the task is to remove the tag (after fixing the problem), not to add it. Looking at the histories, for instance it looks to me as if Anti-German sentiment was added to the to do list in November 2006 because it had an NPOV tag. The dispute was apparently resolved and the tag removed in March 2007, but the to-do list was not updated. On the basis of the to-do list, the tag was apparently added again recently, though there is no apparent dispute on the talk page. The tag says not to remove before the dispute is resolved, but there appears to be no dispute. Or have I missed something?--Boson (talk) 12:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Boson is correct: the todo list is outdated (I used pages that carried the tag at that time). Please update it. Daniel, please only add NPOV tags to an article when you think the article isn't neutral, and explain on the talk page what the problem is. Kusma (talk) 13:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Uetersen and Breinigerberg

Any idea why Breinigerberg and Uetersen get articles in so many languages? The status as of now: Breinigerberg 117 languages, Uetersen 111 languages. Many of these wikipedias don't even have articles for Munich or Cologne. Another example: Międzyrzec Podlaski. Markussep Talk 16:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Breinigerberg because User:BBKurt created most or all of them in those languages, and Uetersen because of 87.122.X.X. Sciurinæ (talk) 16:16, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
And Międzyrzec Podlaski because of 83.5.X.X. There are no other such extreme cases, are there? The only unusually extensive coverage that I can find is that of Eschweiler. But that is nothing compared with that staggering number of 117 languages for Breinigerberg and its '971 inhabitants'. Sciurinæ (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
BBKurt must be an extremely gifted person if he/she speaks 117 languages, the articles in the ones I speak are correct. But copy-paste goes a long way probably. Markussep Talk 21:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Uetersen has now 214 articles (20 May 2008), User Huhu created most or all of them in those languages under various IP Addresses and he constantly expanded and revised. ---User:87.122.66.24 17:05 , 20 May 2008 (UTC) (from Germany).

[edit] Need help on Hans-Heinrich Dieckhoff

I have started an article on Hans-Heinrich Dieckhoff, but as my German is pitiful I cannot make much sense of the many German sources I've come across. I'm particularly interested in amplifying the following:

  • any info on his career before Washington
  • his term as ambassador to Spain
  • the book he published in 1943 (Zur Vorgeschichte des Roosevelt-Krieges. Junker und Dünnhaupt. Berlin. 1943)

Unfortunately Babelfish translation of the German Wikipedia page is barely coherent, much less informative.

Thanks for all the help you can give on this. Mangoe (talk) 05:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd also appreciate help on Hans Thomsen, and advice over whether Victor zu Wied merits an article. Mangoe (talk) 22:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
My thanks to User:Olessi for taking a pass over both articles. I have two further questions about Hans Thomsen. First, a person of that name is listed as a competitor in Fencing at the 1912 Summer Olympics - Men's épée. Does anyone know if this is the same man? Second, I have been unable to find a date of death for him, or for that matter any biographic details at all outside his activities as a diplomat. If anyone could at least come up with a date for his death, I would be most appreciative. Mangoe (talk) 16:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Erwin Adlers

Is the family name Adlers of Aders for the article Erwin Adlers? Perhaps somebody could help me on it? STTW (talk) 21:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The right name ist Erwin Aders.Karsten11 (talk) 13:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Thankx for the redirect. STTW (talk) 17:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notification of Move request : Braunschweig -> Brunswick (Germany)

There is currently a discussion at Talk:Braunschweig as to whether to move the page to Brunswick (Germany) or Brunswick, Germany. Feel free to comment there. Knepflerle (talk) 22:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Red dot design award

After creating the article I found that this article had earlier been deleted, just few weeks ago! Google says a lot about this award but mostly in german context. Perhaps some could help me in improving the article or lets say save it from being deleted again? --STTW (talk) 16:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] de:Vorlage:DSyk is now on EN as Template:DSyk - Translation of notes needed

I found de:Vorlage:DSyk and put it on the English Wikipedia as Template:DSyk - I do not know German so much of the text that came with the German template needs to be translated. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Minor German nobles AfD's and suggestion for Joint Task Force

Please see this discussion: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_European_history#AfDs_needing_expert_attention and the relevant articles and AfDs. We could use help with this and maybe we could use this as an opportunity to explore collaborating more formally. Thanks.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 15:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of continents, countries, and political subdivisions by total area

Hi, I'd appreciates some help in adding the States of Germany to this list. Cheers! bd2412 T 21:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Request withdrawn, this is now done. bd2412 T 21:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kobold peer review

Hello! I have recently listed the article kobold for peer review. The review page can be found here. I would appreciate it if some of the members of this project might take a look and offer some comments on the article. One area that would be nice to have feedback on is the German geographical locations mentioned in the article. Many of them are redlinks, but I may have misspelled something or not realized that a place is known by a different name or spelling of that name. Please take a look if you get a chance. Thanks, — Dulcem (talk) 06:29, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image request

Also, has anyone who lives in Germany and visited the cultural/folklore section of a museum ever seen any kobold carved figurines? If so have they taken a photograph? Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RWTH Aachen

Regarding WP:GERCON, should RWTH Aachen be moved to University of Aachen? Olessi (talk) 02:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Another similar case is Ruhr University Bochum and University of Bochum. Olessi (talk) 03:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I might be wrong, but I think RWTH is reasonably common in English (thus an exception might be warranted). This should definitely go through a move discussion before moving. Kusma (talk) 14:30, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Similarly, there is ETH Zurich. Even though the University of Zürich is a different organisation, ETH is never translated into English - at least, as far as I know. - 52 Pickup (deal) 14:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bucentaur: Translation of German text by Goethe

Hi, I would appreciate your help with translating the following German text by Goethe that appears in the article "Bucentaur":

Um mit einem Worte den Begriff des Bucentaur auszusprechen, nenne ich ihn eine Prachtgaleere. Der ältere, von dem wir noch Abbildungen haben, rechtfertigt diese Benennung noch mehr als der gegenwärtige, der uns durch seinen Glanz über seinen Ursprung verblendet.

Abfahrt der Bucentaure. Vedute von Francesco Guardi.

Ich komme immer auf mein Altes zurück. Wenn dem Künstler ein echter Gegenstand gegeben ist, so kann er etwas Echtes leisten. Hier war ihm aufgetragen, eine Galeere zu bilden, die wert wäre, die Häupter der Republik am feierlichsten Tage zum Sakrament ihrer hergebrachten Meerherrschaft zu tragen, und diese Aufgabe ist fürtrefflich ausgeführt. Das Schiff ist ganz Zierat, also darf man nicht sagen: mit Zierat überladen, ganz vergoldetes Schnitzwerk, sonst zu keinem Gebrauch, eine wahre Monstranz, um dem Volke seine Häupter recht herrlich zu zeigen. Wissen wir doch: das Volk, wie es gern seine Hüte schmückt, will auch seine Obern prächtig und geputzt sehen. Dieses Prunkschiff ist ein rechtes Inventarienstück, woran man sehen kann, was die Venezianer waren und sich zu sein dünkten.

With the help of an online translator and a dictionary I've come up with the following, but I suspect it's not entirely accurate and I'm unsure of the meanings of some words:

[In order to express the concept of the Bucentaur with one word, I call it a Prachtgaleere [magnificent galley]. The older one, which we still have illustrations of, justifies this designation even more than the present one, as we are dazzled by the gloss of its origin. ...

I always return to my old theme. If a genuine object is given to the artist, then he can achieve something genuine. Here was laid on him the responsibility of constructing a galley worthy of carrying the heads of the Republic on the most solemn day to conscrate their traditional dominion over the sea, and this task he carried out excellently. The ship is itself an ornament; therefore one may not say that it is overloaded with ornaments, and that its gilded carvings are useless. It is a true monstrance, in order to show the people that their leaders are indeed wonderful. Nevertheless, we know this: the people, who are fond of decorating their hats, also want to see those with authority over them in splendour and dressed up. This magnificent ship is quite an item of inventory, from which one can see what the Venetians are and desire to be.]

Do reply on the article's talk page. Thanks. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 03:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A-Class? and other review questions

We have a number of A-Class Germany articles, but I don't understand how. We have no process in place for A-Class reviews like e.g. WP:MILHIST (which is basically an in-project FA review), and the standards of some of these A-Class articles vary significantly. For example, many articles have not even passed GA, or are former-GA articles.

I'm not sure how active people are here with regards to article assessment, so I don't think that it is possible to set up an A-Class review system like in WP:MILHIST - although if anyone is keen to start, I'd be interested to know. Perhaps, in the meantime, some other criteria for A-Class should be used instead. The following is lifted from WP:AUST:

  • Criteria:Provides a well-written, reasonably clear and complete description of the topic, as described in How to write a great article. It should be of a length suitable for the subject, with a well-written introduction and an appropriate series of headings to break up the content. It should have sufficient external literature references, preferably from the "hard" (peer-reviewed where appropriate) literature rather than websites. Should be well illustrated, with no copyright problems. At the stage where it could at least be considered for featured article status, corresponds to the "Wikipedia 1.0" standard.
  • Reader's experience: Very useful to readers. A fairly complete treatment of the subject. A non-expert in the subject matter would typically find nothing wanting. May miss a few relevant points.
  • Editor's experience: Minor edits and adjustments would improve the article, particularly if brought to bear by a subject-matter expert. In particular, issues of breadth, completeness, and balance may need work. Peer-review would be helpful at this stage

For the moment, would it be right to say that an A-Class article should at least have passed GA? If so, then any A-Class articles that are not GA should be demoted to B. Or should we do away with A-Class completely? 52 Pickup (deal) 14:56, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

It might be interesting to start an A-Class review / peer review process here, to improve collaboration and to help this project to focus on writing good articles instead of just collecting and categorizing them. Generally, we should try to focus this project more on productive fun (like writing better articles together), and talking about the articles with the author is probably a better way to do that than managing assessment categories, especially at the higher quality levels. Kusma (talk) 09:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
In that case, maybe it would be better to work on setting up an article collaboration (WP:CO) instead of assessment? For that, all we need is to get enough interested people and start with a single article. - 52 Pickup (deal) 14:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I think that if you find an interesting article and start inviting people to help, they will. Many of my own article contributions are translations that I did to help somebody turn the redlinks in Sanssouci blue. It was great fun, and yielded a couple of DYKs for everyone involved. Kusma (talk) 13:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] German derivation of name lorchel for Gyromitra esculenta

The fungus Gyromitra esculenta is sometimes called lorchel or lorel in English but I can't find any reference as to what this word actually means or where it is derived. I am guessing German as the name is used there. Can anyone help me with a reference for the derivation of the word lorchel.

Also, this mushroom was long considered edible but is deadly when raw. There is some reference in English-speaking texts to it being officially discouraged in Germany and it would be great if there was any official german gov't ruling on it on a gov't website. All help much appreciated. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:43, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I have found no references too. Maybee this name refered to the city of Lorch (Württemberg). In Lorch there was a famous monastery (de:Kloster_Lorch), founded 1102. The monks may have used this mushroom.Karsten11 (talk) 10:07, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

There is an entry in the Grimm's Deutsches Wörterbuch, vol. 12, that might give a clue:

LORCHE, f.
1) pinus larix. vgl. lärche sp. 201.
2) eine art eszbarer schwämme, helvella mitra, die bischofsmütze, heiszen in Gera lorchen. NEMNICH 3, 129; nach ADELUNG ist lorche 'in einigen gegenden' auch name der trüffel. mit niederdeutschem lautstande lorken oder laureken, schwarze bülze, taubeney-grosz, wachsen um die kieferstöcke. FRISCH 1, 621b. [3]
1) pinus larix cf. Larch
2) a kind of eatable fungus, the "bishop's mitre" (i.e. Gyromitra infula) are called lorche in Gera. ... according to Adelung, "in some areas" lorche is a name of truffles. with Low German condition of sound, "lorken" or "laureken", black fungi, pigeon-egg sized, growing around pine's rootstocks.

--FordPrefect42 (talk) 11:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Help on film name

Der Blindgänger and Die Blindgänger were both released in 2004 and won film awards? --STTW (talk) 23:02, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I found that the second one was produced in 2003 and aired in 2004. —DerHexer (Talk) 23:07, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The first one was indeed shown at the Brooklyn Film Festival in 2004 (English title: "The Dud"), see [4]. It also has an entry at the IMDB. Markussep Talk 07:25, March 21, 2008
I've added these two links to the article now. --Cyfal (talk) 08:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Articles with notability flags

If anyone is interested, I see at Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Articles with notability questions - Help by Wikiprojects wanted that Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability has sorted articles with outstanding notability issues (as of 12 March 2008). Ours are here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability/Listing by project/Page 3#WikiProject Germany. They suggest making a project copy as an editable to-do list.--Boson (talk) 21:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Newsletter

How is the newsletter of this Wikiproject delivered? I have an approved bot that delivers newsletters. If you would like to have this Wikiproject's newsletter delivered, please follow the instructions on the bot's userpage. Thanks, - Milk's Favorite Cookie 01:19, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I did start writing the second edition but never finished - let me check. Agathoclea (talk) 07:10, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany/Outreach/Newsletter/March 2008 and sofar no-one is one the opt-out list except myself so we don't have to worry about this for this edition Agathoclea (talk) 08:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] WikiProject Germany: Articles of unclear notability

Hello,

there are currently 60 articles in the scope of this project which are tagged with notability concerns. I have listed them here. (Note: this listing is based on a database snapshot of 12 March 2008 and may be slightly outdated.)

I would encourage members of this project to have a look at these articles, and see whether independent sources can be added, whether the articles can be merged into an article of larger scope, or possibly be deleted. Any help in cleaning up this backlog is appreciated. For further information, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability.

If you have any questions, please leave a message on the Notability project page or on my personal talk page. (I'm not watching this page however.) Thanks! --B. Wolterding (talk) 15:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Ooops - I saw too late that somebody had already posted a link above. Never mind. --B. Wolterding (talk) 15:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment bot

Hi guys. I've got a bot that is fairly good at assessing articles automagically for class and in the case of municipality articles with a population figure in an infobox, for importance as well. I see you guys have been doing quite a lot of assessment manually, and if you want to carry on that way, it's fine by me, but I thought I'd make the offer and save someone some back-breaking work. There's been some discussion over on the France Project which you might want to read before replying - as I say there, the bot does seem to work better than you think it ought to, ;-/ and you save so much time with the automated assessments that picking over a few misplaced articles is trivial in comparison. I'm a bit snowed under with the comuni of Italy at the moment, so if you want to have a bit of a think about it, that's fine by me - and it gives you some time to put more infoboxes in place. FlagSteward (talk) 19:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Articles for deletion/Subconscious (band)

Please see: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Subconscious (band) about a German heavy metal band article nominated for deletion. If you know more about this subject please add your views. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 09:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ernst and Ernest

There is a whole family of people called Ernst whose articles were named Ernest and then the articles discussed them as Ernst:

I have moved Ernst I, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and Ernst II, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha‎. Looking at their family trees, there are the likes of Ernest Frederick, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld and John Ernest IV, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld etc. all with anglicised article names that then use the German names in the articles. Anyone got a bot that can deal with this mess?--Peter cohen (talk) 15:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ulmer Münster

Ulmer Münster is currently under the title Ulm Cathedral which is incorrect as it is a church not a cathedral. It is however also not a Minster (in the English meaning of the word). There is a proposal to rename the article to Ulmer Münster, which gets round these problems. However before I (or someone else) does this, what is the convention with putting umlauts into article names? Traveler100 (talk) 17:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Depending on what English sources would call the subject yes or no. In both cased the appropriate redirects should exist. Ulmer Münster is sufficiently known to have enough citations to make the judgement on the name I would say. Agathoclea (talk) 18:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some problem with a German user

Accidentally coming upon the article on Karin Büttner-Janz‎ I've noticed that its creator, Kay Körner (here's some personal information on him) has done quite a lot of good work here, for example translating articles from German. But he seems to experience huge problems now due to having uploaded a lot of copyvio images. He also used multiple accounts (sockpuppets), blanked pages sometimes (e.g. some Nazi-related), etc. However, I strongly object to opinion, that he is a vandal, just unfamiliar with Wikipedia's rules and Wikipedia's behavior standards. Could we help him somehow? E.g. point him out some help pages he should read before he proceed, but prevent admins from kicking him off Wikipedia completely. His last edits appear to be done under Kay Körner‎ account in Wikipedia (2008, January 5) and under the same account in Wikimedia [5] on March 25, 2008. Cmapm (talk) 23:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

While your attempt to help this fellow is noble in a way, you need scratch a bit beneath the surface and better inform yourself. He did not arrive to his current circumstance through a few simple image copyright violations or any lack of understanding of Wikipedia's standards of conduct. Characterizing his work, including his ill-made translations from German, as "good" is way off the mark. In my own turn, I would "strongly object" to an uninformed opinion of this user that paints him as any kind of innocent or good guy. Please go back and have a closer look at his track record before you wade any deeper into this. Wiggy! (talk) 00:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Most of his edits in Wikipedia are related to Sportvereinigung Dynamo. According to his bio page he was going for sports quite successfully. And if he trained at this society, he might be just an impulsive supporter of his own club. Wiki editing and communication is not his strong side, and his English is bad. But this doesn't mean he's a bad guy. My English is better, but I also spent quite a lot of time understanding Wikipedia's policy, and I have tons of images removed due to different understanding of "fair use" policy among wiki users. Cmapm (talk) 13:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
He is a strongly POV editor who conducts himself in an uncooperative manner. His edits under multiple user names extend far beyond the SV Dynamo article. He has a well-established track record of responding to other editors in an attacking manner using offensive or racist language in rambling harangues rather than engaging them in constructive dialogue. Copyright violations related to the images he uploads are the smallest part of the problem and are, frankly, insignificant against the other issues around this editor. I would suggest again that you get past the surface of his various user pages and examine his conduct in the histories of those pages. He has been blocked here and at de:wikipedia under multiple identities for cause, not for trivial reasons. Wiggy! (talk) 14:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Racist? This is serious, if this is true. Could you provide a few direct links, please? Cmapm (talk) 14:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but I didn't find any POV or unsupported claims in the following articles created by him: Karin Büttner-Janz‎, Jörg Landvoigt, Bernd Jakubowski, Gisela Birkemeyer. And the primary reason for block as evidenced by the discussion were namely image copyvios. At that discussion I see some POV from other sides as well, e.g.: "Don't expect any kind of civil response or anything approaching compliance from this guy. He's straight up POV with a long track record of disruptive behaviour and doesn't give a hoot about what you or anybody else has to say. Good luck. Have fun."; "Holy cow. And I thought he was giving me a hard time. The guy's a jerk and should be blocked in whatever incarnation he shows up." Cmapm (talk) 15:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
No, maybe not anything POV in those articles, but you haven't had to deal with this guy over the course of more than a year. I'm disappointed that you've decided to turn this on me by characterizing my remarks about Kay as POV. Those are my opinions based on my experiences with him and they were made in the context of talk pages, not in the main article space, which hardly makes them POV by the definition in use here. Make sure you understand the difference. And for the record, I stand by those opinions because they were hard come by. I note also that you chose to ignore the remarks by other users within that discussion with respect to Kay's overt hostility and racism to focus on my comments. That's narrow at best.
So that said, I'm done here. I've given you a heads up on this guy as a response to your solicitation on his behalf based on what I see as a very superficial evaluation his of conduct by someone whose has had minimal contact with him. (And before you bring it up, he beat the wikipedia concept of "assume good faith" and any related notions, pretty much to death a long time ago.) My experience is that there's lots of nice folks out here that are fun to work with. Not Kay. He's disruptive and beyond and not worth your effort. Again, he didn't get blocked here and at de:wikipedia for being a good egg. Good luck. Wiggy! (talk) 19:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Not only on you, please pay attention to a citation of offending remark by another guy, provided by me. No, I didn't ignore them, but his "hostility" and political bias also was "in the context of talk pages". As for your remark, that he is "not worth my effort", I think, I know better, what is worth my effort. One of my major focus points are biographies of Olympians. I find Kay's contributions to articles on Olympic champions valuable and I think it's wrong, that such folks are blocked from Wikipedia indefinitely. Cmapm (talk) 22:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
To add a bit to this discussion, like Wiggy, I had my dealings with Kay as well, even so only very recently. For a start, I think you may find him easier to deal with, Cmapm, because you are from the former CCCP and he doesn't see you as a "Klassenfeind". Everybody else however, is additude is hostile to from the start. If you look in the edit history of SV Dynamo, when he reverts other peoples work, he calls them "Gay boy", "Christian liars", "Bastards" and so on. I don't think this is the proper way to address other editors just because they don't share your opinion. Also, you will find he deletes virtually everything anybody else contributes to his "pet articles" (the world of SV Dynamo). In one word, he does not cooperate well with other editors. I have attempted to engage in discussion with him in German and Englisch and at times he can be quite resonable but at other times he just falls into a rant. While his talent is admittingly large, his tolerance for other people is not! I found myselve called a lier and a "Bundi" (not quite sure what sort of an insult that is meant to be?) quite a few times, there is an extensive discussion between him and me on the talk pages, fell free to read through it! If you do wish to still take him under your guidance, you are taking on a large responsibility here, be aware of that! In my opinion he needs to grow up and get out a bit more. In any case, greetings from my side,EA210269 (talk) 01:17, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
A "Bundi" is what people from former East-Germany call people from the old Federal republic of Germany (in German: _BUNDES_republik Deutschland). This nick is in no way positively biased, quite the contrary. In the early 90s, it was used to express disdain towards those Germans in the western part of the nation who had been doing better over the last 40 years. For me personally, his speach, origin and the way he enforces his position, and his position alone, paints a pretty good picture of a hardcore, yesterday East-German. Well, they, too, fade away. Greetings, Lost Boy (talk) 04:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation on "Bundi", however, as I'm quite happily one I do not consider it an insult at all from his side! To the contrary! And as I said above, I do hope he grows up eventually. Aapart from this, I agree with your accesment.EA210269 (talk) 05:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It looks a lot like the above mentioned user has returned under User:Shgdh and IP User:141.30.133.98. He follows his usuall pattern but his language seems more abusive then ever, revert bast. vandalism with lies, fuck you bastard! and revert vandalism by drug admin are not a good sign! He is now operating out of the Technische Universitaet Dresden rather then the Saxon State Library. I have reported the issue to theWikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.EA210269 (talk) 04:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Heinz Riesenhuber

I started a new article on this German politician. I would be glad if anybody could look over it. Regards, --Abrech (talk) 10:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

doneKarsten11 (talk) 11:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Transcribing help

I am trying to transcribe this invitation, with the words needed below. It's too blury for a non fluent speaker like me to read, and I can't get a better scan. If any one could help that would be appreciated, it goes für..... Epson291 (talk) 03:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


It says "für Herrn L. Mozkin
In der feierlichen Eröffnungssitzung ist das schwarze
Hemd und weiße Halsbinde vorgeschrieben".
Looks like an admittance card to a very formal / official event; in English, it would read
"(To/For) Mr. L. Mozkin
For the formal opening session, black
shirt and white necklet are (mandatory/to be worn)"
Hope that helps. BTW, what did you need that for? Greetings, Lost Boy (talk) 04:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

It actually says schwarzes Festkleid, rather than schwarzes Hemd, which would be black festive dress, rather than black shirt. --Mdebets (talk) 06:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Yep. You're right.Lost Boy (talk) 07:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
It's also "weisse", not "weiße", although the latter would be more correct. Yaan (talk) 13:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
In modern German orthography, "weiße" would be the correct form, but in 1897, when this membership card is dated, there where no strict orthographic rules, so "weisse" is okay. BTW, the holder of the card may easily be identified as Leo Motzkin. --FordPrefect42 (talk) 13:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
And since this comes from an invitation for an event in Basel, and Swiss German does not use the "ß" character, "weisse" is correct. 52 Pickup (deal) 13:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I've updated the image's informaiton. Epson291 (talk) 03:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question for members

I was just wondering if anybody noticed the [Pennsylvania German] Wikipedia. I just noticed when I was looking at, oddly enough, the article for Benedikt XVI. It seems easy enough to read, and interesting as well. Grsz11 05:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, not to hard to read, especially if your coming from southern Germany, I guess. Seems very closely related to the dialect in the Pfalz. I had a quick look and realised there also is a Bavarian wikipedia! Didn't know that either!EA210269 (talk) 06:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Believe it or not, there's also a Lower German Wikipedia at http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:H%C3%B6%C3%B6ftsiet ! Since Bavarians and North-Germans tend to look at each other like Maine Watermen might look at New Orleans French Quarter inhabitants, that doesn't really surprise me. Greetings, Lost Boy (talk) 07:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Looking at how many different German variations of wikipedia there are (German, Bavarian, Lower German, Alemannic, Pennsylvania German, ...) compare to the fact that there seems to be only one English one (discounting Simple English), what do you reckon, this means?EA210269 (talk) 07:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Interesting point ESA2 I think it might go back to the fact that these "dialects" were the mother speech of the areas until at least Luther, and are still spoken at home in a lot of areas. In English the various types are recent developments (since the 1700's), and followed the fixing of English orthography (or almost). Although an Australian, American, and Canadian may have different was of pronouncing the word Shane, for instance, it would be more confusing for each to try to write it phonetically. One could also consider the local pride issue too. For myself, coming from North Dakota, people from the "foreign" country of Canada don't sound all that different, but my own countrymen in the Carolinas do - so language is not something that has a local or nationalistic feel, unlike someone from Bayern or Baden. (I must say I rather enjoy coming across an article that talks about someone going "to hospital" or playing football with a round ball.)Amwyll Rwden (talk) 12:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal for new category

I was looking at the articles on the Romantic Road and Schwarzwaldhochstraße, and wondered if we should have a category for these like in the German Wiki. i.e. Ferienstraße If so, what would the best English translation be? Vacation Roads, Themed Drives, Tourist Routes...? Amwyll Rwden (talk) 12:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Good idea, German tourist routes sounds the best from my point of view, with maybe a little explanation in the Category header what it is all about.EA210269 (talk) 12:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that seems to be the best possibility. Marcus Cyron (talk) 21:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ADB redlist

Of the approximately 26,500 articles in the Allgemeine Deutsche Biographie, 7500 titles have been imported to the German Wikisource. I've done a bit of automatic and manual munging of them to try to point to plausible English article titles, removed the ones that already exist, and put the remainder at User:Delirium/ADB as a list of articles we should probably have at some point. --Delirium (talk) 03:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Good idea, although the English Wikisource would probably be the better place to put any ADB translations you may do. 52 Pickup (deal) 07:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Translation request

Due to the good ideas I got in my previous post, I will pose some related questions. Is there a standard way to translate Stadtteil / Ortsteil? Is there a list of standard translations for this type of term beyond this list? I would also like ideas about how to translate Herrschaft in the sense of a medieval land holding and the rights/responsibilities that go with it. For an example see here. Domain(s), holding, honor, ... I'm sure that there is a more precise English word for it. Amwyll Rwden (talk) 07:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Tricky. I don't think there is a standard way, but we threw around a few ideas here. As for Herrschaft, dict.leo.org has a few suggestions, out of which "domain" sounds good to me. 52 Pickup (deal) 07:51, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] German film editors wanted

WikiProject Films has solicited interest in creating a German cinema task force. We'd like to cordially welcome all regular editors of these articles to voice their interest in starting this task force so as to see if there is sufficient support. Many thanks! Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 02:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pforzen buckle

This article is currently ranked as Stub-class. Could someone please take a look and bump it up to Start- or B-class? Thanks. Aryaman (Enlist!) 13:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prime ministers of Bavaria

In an attempt to remove all red links from the Template:BavariaPMs I've created articles about some of the missing former PM's, specifically Graf von und zu Lerchenfeld, Heinrich Held and Ludwig Siebert. Now only Hanns Seidel is still missing but I hope to get to him soon. I've found only limited sources, except for Held, and if somebody with some more knowledge could add a bit more background, it would be great. EA210269 (talk) 22:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Help in translating German-English

HI,

Im new to wikipedia. I want to contribute by translating german wikipages to english. But there doesnt seem to be a clear-cut way to do it. Ive been going around in circles. Can anyone tell me how to go about translating a page. There seems to be just too much info and not much procedure.

Thanks Pavitrabaxi (talk) 06:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Did you have a look at Wikipedia:Translation? More specific info is on the talk of each article in the appropriate section, in your case Wikipedia:Translation/*/Lang/de. Go to any talk page of the articles there and read the detailed instructions. That should give you an idea how to proceed. If you like you can post your article there. Or else, be blunt, just translate the article, but don't forget to include a permanent link to the translated original page. HTH, --Jo (talk) 21:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Need help

I'm really taking German in school this year, but next year I will, so I'm not really that much use, but If you need any help just tell me. Thanks for your time. JosephJames6 (talk) 02:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spotlight

Spotlight
An article covered by this WikiProject, Kristallnacht, is currently under the Spotlight. If you wish to help, please join the editors in #wikipedia-spotlight on the freenode IRC network where the project is coordinated. (See the IRC tutorial for help with IRC)

...... Dendodge .. TalkHelp 00:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I added a BAP (German band) song I remembered which hadn't been listed under the Modern response section. How do you access the IRC channel, I seem to be unable to open the link? EA210269 (talk) 02:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:IRC tutorial...... Dendodge .. TalkHelp 16:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question on legal term: Farbentragen

During my translation of the Article de:Kartellverband katholischer deutscher Studentenvereine (Main Article: Kartellverband katholischer deutscher Studentenvereine), I keep running across two descriptive legal terms for German not-for-profit corporations and associations: "Color-carrying" (farbentragende) and "non-color-carrying" (nichtfarbentragende). Exactly what "colors" (Farben) are referred to in this distinction? Some background on the matter would be helpful in accurizing this Translation Work In Progress. B. C. Schmerker (talk) 06:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

de:Couleur explains this in German, the English version Couleur is possibly a bit too short.

--Kgfleischmann (talk) 12:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Presumably the information would be in Section 23, de:Couleur#Couleur entsteht aus studentischer Tracht? It appears that some students' associations adopted specifications for association uniforms under French influence, at a time when much of present-day Germany was under Napoleonic suzerainty, thus the "color-carrying" legal descriptor with "color" referring to an association uniform. Is this the case, as it appears; or need I additional information to determine the nature of the farbentragende Verbindung? B. C. Schmerker (talk) 06:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spotlight

Spotlight
An article covered by this WikiProject, 30 Years' War, is currently under the Spotlight. If you wish to help, please join the editors in #wikipedia-spotlight on the freenode IRC network where the project is coordinated. (See the IRC tutorial for help with IRC)

...... Dendodge .. TalkHelp 20:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] War of the Spanish Succession

Is up for Featured Article Review. Please take a look and see if you are interested in helping it come up to current standards. Thank you. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 01:35, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Draft Guidelines for Lists of companies by country - Feedback Requested

Within WikiProject Companies I am trying to establish guidelines for all Lists of companies by country, the implementation of which would hopefully ensure a minimum quality standard and level of consistency across all of these related but currently disparate articles. The ultimate goal is the improvement of these articles to Featured List status. As a WikiProject that currently has one of these lists within your scope, I would really appreciate your feedback! You can find the draft guidelines here. Thanks for your help as we look to build consensus and improve Wikipedia! - Richc80 (talk) 21:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] German Landtage

In the next days I'll try to create at least Stub-class articles for every German Landtag, so if anyone wants to help out, come join me. -Bundesamt (talk) 21:26, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Good venture. I´m familiar with the topic from my work on articles on ancient Landtage in the de:wikipedia and will try to help. Looking on Landtag, we can see, that some of the articles ars still existing.Karsten11 (talk) 11:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I will try to help improve the Landtag of Bavaria article, I've done a little already. There is some tables that could be copied accross from the German wikipedia with a little translation, providing they are correct. EA210269 (talk) 00:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Category:State legislatures of Germany seems to indicate that only 4 are missing (but perhaps some others are uncategorized or titled differently). Kusma (talk) 08:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I just found Berlin (Abgeordnetenhaus von Berlin). There is an article called Government of Hamburg, that treats the Bürgerschaft and the Senate. And there's Politics of North Rhine-Westphalia, which needs some editing (it doesn't even mention the Landtag). There's nothing about the Brandenburg Landtag yet (except the state elections, mentioned in the Brandenburg article). Markussep Talk 09:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Erfolgsduo Hagen

Does anyone know if this muscial act is likel to be notable? All the online sources I can find are in German (which I don't speak), sorry for the trouble. Guest9999 (talk) 22:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

In the german wikipedia we have deleted the article due to the lack of relevance after the AfD on [2008-01-04].Karsten11 (talk) 19:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The german wikipedia's relevance criterias are somewhat higher than the english ones. Well, I give you a translation of all facts of a promo text for the band argueing for relevance: "1998, they have been elected as second-best band of the Sauerland, the played together with In Extremo, Him und Knorkator, they performed at Hans Meiser, Oliver Geissen, Bärbel Schäfer and Jörg Pilawa and have already been broadcasted at Viva 2." (Meiser, Geissen, Schäfer and Pilawa are german television talkshow moderators, also used sloppy as abbreviations for the name of their talkshows; in Germany they are quite well-known.) Actually, this is a little bit, but not much for notability. --Cyfal (talk) 22:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
You're better off asking the music guys, sounds like they're on the borderline. But looking at Wikipedia:Notability (music) it's looking like they're OK - "Notability is met if the musician has been the subject of a broadcast by a media network. " Obviously there are media networks and media networks, but national talk shows should be OK. In general the music guys put more weight on releasing records on major labels (eg BMG or EMI), or getting music into the Top 40, so I'd emphasise the record releases (with publishers and chart positions) rather than TV appearances if that's possible. FlagSteward (talk) 03:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Erzgebirge and other common names

I am growing increasingly irritated when I find some geographical feature that is displayed under some obscure pseudo English name. I can just about stomach the Rhineland Palatinate- but who in their right mind thought of doing a redirect so Köln arrives at Cologne. To be consistent shouldn´t Mainz redirect to Mayence? Ore Mountains? Where are these 'cod' translations coming from? Will I wake up one morning and find the article on the Elstergebirge is now called the Magpie Hills (no that was irony not a proposal). Has anyone got an opinion.Should we be working on a policy to standardise spelling to those found in the Philips Atlas of the World 2001 ISBN 0-540-08070-5 (or any other that we can buy at WHSmiths)? That could be a proposal.ClemRutter (talk) 10:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) says: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. In my opinion widely usage in not really referenced in some cases (Cologne or Munich are not that cases). The english wikipedia is very rigorous to keep content proved and to give sources but naming is referenced by guessed volubleness. I think that some names are just inventions or generated by some pattern of name building. Places are not that problem, other proper names as like as names of universities and so on are more questionable. Geo-Loge (talk) 10:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't have any problems with Cologne and Munich, and generally, I'm happy with the conventions agreed on at Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany/Conventions#Contemporary placenames. I think most other names should use the German, because there is not normally a different and widely accepted English name. I'm not sure about using a single work, especially an atlas, for guidance: it is quite appropriate for an atlas or road map to use the local name, but this is not necessarily appropriate for an encyclopedia. Although I, personally, am not very fond of "Ore mountains", I can see that it is a special case because they are partly German and partly Czech. What is the accepted English name for the part or the mountains in the Czech Republic? --Boson (talk) 18:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
There is just one mountain range and parts only exist from west to east.. a translation of the Czech name into English would be Acerbic Mountains, I guess. English Wikipedia has some placenames in Czech language, for example the near by České Středohoří. Erzgebirge (and even Krušné hory) is easier to speak out.. ;) Geo-Loge (talk) 22:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
It may be worth our while to start a list of German placenames which have a more common English version. Any place name not on this list should then retain their German name, in my opinion. Regarding the Erzgebirge article, what would be wrong, in this case, to have a double name for an article? Erzgebirge - Krušné hory, whereby the order of name is determined by the alphabeth and the meaning explained in the first pharagraph? Ore mountain doesn't sit right with me. Are we going to rename the Erzgebirge Aue article to Ore mountain Aue, too? EA210269 (talk) 00:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
"Ore Mountains" is the accepted English name of the mountains, plain and simple. Britannica, The Guardian, Bloomberg, and The Washington Times all use it, just to name the first publications I could find. --Carabinieri (talk) 01:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I made my first comment to judge other folks reactions, so would now like to comment.

Carabinieri helpfully has collected some examples, of the 'artificial' name. I would suggest that these references are mainly circular- that the Guardian/ Bloomberg etc journalists took the name from Wikipedia. Using the search facility within the Guardian site, shows that it is not consistent.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/feb/11/germany.lukeharding1 uses Erzgebirge/ no translation.
http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/family/story/0,,1994409,00.html uses both, Erzgebirge/ Ore Mountains

Doing a number count on a search, gives 11/4 in favour of Erzgebirge, to few to be significant and heavily distorted by the existence of a football team.

I too have had a look at the britannica- but chose the edition that wouldn't be influenced by a Wikipedia error.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Erzgebirge
Between the Keilberg and the Fichtelberg, at the height of about 3300 ft., is situated Gottesgab, the highest town in Bohemia. Geologically, the Erzgebirge range consists mainly of gneiss, mica and phyllite. As its name (Ore Mountains) indicates, it is famous for its mineral ores. These are chiefly silver and lead, the layers of both of which are very extensive, tin, nickel, copper and iron.

This is fascinating because its article is firmly headed Erzgebirge. Also it may show how the error started as a subeditors mistake. (ore mountains) was a literal translation, but when capitalised it appears that this was the legitimate English name for this feature. Context shows that EB had intended it merely as a translation.

I think this is enough to show- the correct name. But still, I had suggested that we may use a standard atlas- I named one that is widely available. Its advantage is a flash on the front saying in Association with the Royal Geographical Society with the Institute of British Geographers. But this is not a rigourous approach to notability. I have similarly consulted a 1962 Johnston and Bacon Atlas, and the Oxford/Penguin World Atlas all with identical results. These are deliberately not Road Atlases which would use local spelling. The 1962 Atlas uses the Cologne/Munich spellings.

The other issue discussed was whether a cross border geographic feature should have neutral name. Where there is an English usage such Aix la Chapelle/Aachen this would be relevant, but in the case of Slovak, Lower Sorbian or Czech I cannot think of any transfer into English- and indeed in the case of Bohemia it is currently in the Czech Republic but there is a sizeable German speaking minority. There seems to be no usage of 'Ore mountains' before 1911.

There is also the small problem of the word 'mountain', in European English usage it is debatable whether the Erzgebirge are hills or very low mountains( Mittelgebirge) - 600m being the cut off point by one definition.

For the sake of accuracy, I think we should initiate the process to correct this mistake and change the advice in :Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)so it is no longer inconsistent when it says: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it.

ClemRutter (talk) 22:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Britannica was influenced by Wikipedia, since the 15th edition (Copyright 1980) also has "Ore Mountains". I would guess that geopolitical considerations were a consideration, since before 1918 the range of hills was entirely in locations where German was the official language and/or German was spoken.
The EB 11th ed. (1911) has Erzgebirge: "a mountain chain of Germany, extending in a W.S.W. direction from the Elbe to the Elstergebirge along the frontier between Saxony and Bohemia".
The 15th ed. (1980) has Ore Mountains, Czech KRUŠNÉ HORY, German ERZGEBIRGE, range of hills bounding the Bohemian Massif . . ."
I think the general rule stated at Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany/Conventions#Contemporary placenames is reasonably sensible:
  • "Wikipedia uses English names for other contemporary geographic features when the English usage is (1) universal or (2) the feature crosses language boundaries or (3) derived terms are in common use."
I am not sure that "Erzgebirge" has established itself in English for the whole range of hills including that part in the Czech Republic, as opposed to the tourist region in Germany, say. For instance, when talking of habitats, I'm not sure whether use of Erzgebirge would imply a smaller area than Ore Mountains. I think there may also be a difference in usage between geologists and botanists. --Boson (talk) 11:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
It's worth reminding people of two of the overarching principles of Wikipedia - WP:ENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME. So there would be little debate that Cologne is where the article should be, and Köln should be a redirect. Bilingual article names are deprecated in general, much better to use one name and redirect from the other - because except in rare circumstances, the common name in English is either A or B, but seldom A-B. And quite often the common name in English is not the English translation, but the local name. I had an Italian from the Aosta Valley recently, who found that people didn't understand her references to the nearby mountain which lies partly in France and partly in Italy - I had to explain that the English translation of "Monte Bianco" was in fact "Mont Blanc" and not "White Mountain"! So when it comes to Erzgebirge, you have to use a bit of common sense - my gut feel says that Erzgebirge probably counts as the WP:COMMONNAME, even though there are options in English and Czech. But I'm quite open to WP:RS proving me otherwise. FlagSteward (talk) 03:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)