Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gender Studies/Archive 3

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align="left" This article is part of WikiProject Gender Studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Wikipedia. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.

Contents

Violence against Women

I got involved with the article after reading some of the comments on a recently closed AfD #15 on this days listing which has since been recreated and expanded as Domestic violence against men. I was appalled at the WP:POINT being exhibited, especially by those who contended that if that article got deleted then the corresponding Violence against Women should also. Looking at the article, I agreed that it needed some POV clean up and general expansion. I started to do some re-write on the article but time contraints will limit my ability to devote extensive time. Any help from other editors would be greatly appreciated. Agne 16:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

asking for comments regarding the exclusion of women in List_of_major_opera_composers

I would like to request comments and suggestions for the following situation in Talk:List_of_major_opera_composers#Not_so_fast.__There_is_obvious_POV_gender_bias_here . This is a very long, complicated situation involving whether women should be included on this list of Opera composers. As a male musician who has done quite alot of research on women in music, I firmly believe that a representative sample should be on the list (I'm not suggesting 50/50 or even 30/70, just two or three representative women). When I first noticed this article, it was completely unsourced, and the "important composers" were chosen by a collegial system ("I like that." "I don't like that") without any mention of sources. I marked the article NPOV and Unsourced. The article quickly became sourced, but I continued to bring up the issue of gender bias and brought three sources to the discussion after consulting the International Alliance of Women in Music [[1]], all of which were dismissed because they only contained works by women. However, when the list was finally completed (I was asked not to participate, as I was considered to be have a POV agenda towards women and living composers), six of the ten lists used only contained the names of men. The other four only contained one woman (Judith Weir). If lists of only women composers are unacceptable, why are lists of only men composers acceptable? And was are sources which could prove the importance of women in music dismissed as having a POV agenda.

A colleague who is a teacher of Women's studies at an American University has suggested that this is a textbook case of "canon forming" or the creation of hierarchies using preconceived notions. The process involves making a hypothesis using the notions that one already has, such as "Important operas are only composed by dead, White, European males", using the sources already utilised for making the hypothesis for proving the statement and then dismissing contradictary sources or discrediting individuals who make statements which oppose the primary hypothesis.

I am certainly not asking anyone to get directly involved here, as this is already become quite violent and an RfA is currently underway. I would however appreciate any ideas concerning how to confront this sort of gender bias, any useful sources and other ideas, as well as general comments. Thank you Jean-Thierry Boisseau 20:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


Request for help

I'm working on an article for a rather odd play by W. S. Gilbert, Charity about the differences in treatment of women and men who have had sex outside of marriage, and, basically, attempting to demonstrate the Victorian view of women in that situation as baseless and wrong - that women can commit what was then considered sexual impropriety whilst remaining good women, and not being permanently fallen women. Aye, it's probably irrelevant now: We've gone beyond those beliefs, but it deserves to be known about.

However, whilst my knowledge of the Victorian attitudes is reasonably good, I'm not sure of my ability to produce a well-cited section on the historical background. Can anyone direct me to appropriate books? Adam Cuerden talk 15:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 23:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Categories

I can't help but notice that you have only feminist categories and NO masculist categories. If you really intend to eliminate or reduce gender bias from WP, you ought to start with the PGS page. You can't ever acheive gender neutral from a solely feminist view. How about cleaning up the sexist bias in the Categories.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.19.14.21 (talk) 03:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

Template

After someone's comment at Superhero, I thought I would offer a suggestion. You might want to create a different template for talk pages instead of using your navigational template (Template:WikiProject Gender Studies). Check out Talk:Superman for some examples, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide for why this may be preferred. - jc37 17:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Front page

I've just happened upon this WikiProject, and while it interests me I'm finding the front page a little busy and lengthy - I think it could be streamlined a bit to better facilitate new people immediately seeing tasks to be done of interest, thereby contributing new work to the project. I'm going to make some changes, feel free to revert them if you don't think they're good ideas. Kurieeto 01:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


POV Check: Freedom from censorship in wikipedia articles?

Feminist Phyllis Chessler in her (2006) The Death of Feminism (Chapter 1: The "Good" Feminist) makes the following statements about totalitarian thought control in elite academic and media circles. I added these excerpts here because I added well-sourced qualification to this project (see discussion below) that reflects these concerns about gynocentric, reverse-sexist, and misandric gender bias. Ironically but not surprisingly, I already see I face the same tactics (as an editor) to silence this so-called "non-consensus" content from, I imagine, 'good' feminists and/or other editors who sympathethize with them...no personal offense to any editor here. I have no problem with constructive NPOV criticisms but I have sound cause to suspect that this project in particular, is a politically loaded project being used to pander to 'oppression' feminist POV with no consideration given to other POV's much less to GENUINE NPOV gender-bias corrections. I hope we will use civil, overt, and constructive discussions here rather than cunning, covert, and destructive totalitarian tactics to resolve issues related to the addition or subtraction of politically incorrect and/or politically correct content in this project. To see a blatantly reverse sexist ("feminist") project is POV to me. I added some balance to the project so that we can INDEED eliminate all forms of blatant gender bias be they for or against 'gender'-feminist POV. Please keep in mind that so-called 'gender-oppression' is an untested and often falsified "GENDER"-feminist theory that is being used shamelessly as an ideology. We need some sort of NPOV balance here.

(drop in editor)

"Does she (an unnamed lifelong Democratic feminist in New York mentioned in the preceding paragraph) believe that engaging in dialogue with the designated "enemy" somehow constitutes traitorous behavior? If so, and I suspect this is the case, I must ask: Is she only afraid of the Republicans--who have not abolished her First Amendment right to speak out as feminist and who have not rescinded the Fourth Amendment against improper search and seizure--or is she afraid of the media and the academic elite who view civil conversation with anyone who opposes them as a high crime?"
"It is crucial to note that our government has not criminalized free speech nor have dissidents been jailed for saying whatever they please. In my opinion, the chilling of free speech has been unilaterally imposed by those who claim to act on its' behalf."
"What sort of group or person refuses to recognize the existence of and refuses to even talk to, no less hire, someone with whom they disagree? What sort of group or person persistently slanders and demonizes those with whom they happen to disagree on key political issues? What sort of group or person demands uniform party-line thinking--and is powerful enough to coerce people into "hiding" their potentially dissident views, sometimes even from themselves"?
"Surely I must be talking about the power of the former Soviet state or Nazi Germany, Maoist China, or any one of the many Islamic dictatorships; or I must be describing Republican or conservative thinking. Alas, I am not."
"Today totalitarian thinking is also flourishing among media and academic elites. Oddly enough, such totalitarian thinking and its consequent thought control are flying high under the banners of "free speech" and "political correctness". Dare to question these elites' rights to expose or challenge them, and you'll quickly be attacked as representing a new and more dreadfull form of "McCarthyism" and "witch hunting".

(drop in editor) 128.111.96.152 01:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

POV Check: "Correcting any systemic gender bias" indeed!?

Content in question:

However other researchers who study the usages of the term gender have distinctly opposing views. Misandry researchers Nathanson and Young assert that 'gender' is a term used by radical, or what they call "ideological" feminists to propagate gynocentric misandry. They assert that almost all gender research is gynocentric, and that the very term 'gender' is a "front" for Marxist, Romanticist, and Classist forms of female-superiority feminism. Other oppression-feminist authors may also have POV's about these researchers POV's...in which case they deserve to be well-sourced and shown here with NPOV balance as well. The aim of this Project is to correct any systematic gender bias on Wikipedia.

Someone reverted the content above from this project as being not in 'consensus' whatever that means in a project like this that is aimed at ALL forms of systemic and gender bias on wikipedia. I added this content to flag systemic and GYNOCENTRIC gender biases I see all over feminist related pages after reading Nathanson and Young, Hoff-Sommers, and other non-gender-ginning feminists' takes on this. I suspect this project was created to pander to the points of view of misandric, gender-ginning, 'patriarchal oppression' feminists (please see Women's studies, misandry and feminism ) who use the term 'gender' as a cunning, covert, and blatantly gynocentric weapon of war. Many other more moderate feminists and non-feminists have challenged these blatantly gynocentric, and often misandric "gender feminist" ideologies. I insist on a non-sexist, non-'genderist', non-reverse sexist project...otherwise this project is just the usual type of cunning totalitarian tactic we see so much in other politically correct channels. To revert the above content just because none of the orginal authors of this project page like it is a POV stunt to have ones cake and eat it too. I am going to reinsert the content. I insist that before it is reverted again good NPOV reasons be provided. My aim here is some kind of GENUINE non-sexist, non-reverse sexist, and non-'genderist' NPOV...as may be shown well in Sexism (drop in editor) 00:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 22:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

A flaw in your logic...?

I noted on your front page you do not wish to add pro-female POV, et al, however you also say right above it, quote, This project does not aim to correct a perceived pro-female or anti-male bias in Wikipedia. Nor does it seek to write general critiques of articles about gender-related topics.. So you wont add pro-female bias, but you won't remove it either? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by David Fuchs (talk • contribs) 21:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

pertinent CFD

Interested editors should see Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 December 30#Category:Feminist artists — coelacan talk — 01:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

  • That CFD ended up with no consensus; but, some of us are continuing the discussion at Category talk:Feminist artists. The basic question is, should the category continue as what it is currently (cross-section of all artists who also are feminists) or should it be limited to artists whose art is feminist, who are producing feminist art? If this category shouldn't be limited that way, then should there be a separate category to try to capture those artists making feminist art? Because presently that category is lost among the artists-who-are-feminists. ... The same issue is applicable to other biographical categories, btw; feminist lit critics, and so on. This points out the need for articles like "feminist art" and so on. --lquilter 21:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Modern girl

I don't know if any of you are familiar with the Japanese social development of the Modern girl in the 1920s; though distinguished from flappers by writers both then and now, the development shares many similarities. If anyone here is familiar with it, I would like to invite you to expand upon the article; I am currently reading about it for class, but (a) admittedly, am not that interested in the subject, and (b) am not a sociologist, gender-studies student, or anything like that and do not really know how to re-express or describe the concepts well. Thank you. LordAmeth 13:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

LordAmeth, your work on the Modern Girl is really good. I have no background in Japaneese culture and knew nothing about the Modern Girl until I saw the article so I don't feel knowledgable enough to edit it. I have just one issue; if indeed these Modern Girls were not real people but representations of "ideal" women - should the first line be amended to make that clear immediately? It could also be important to show the influence, if any existed, of the New Woman on the Modern Girl. --Cailil 21:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Gender Studies Page

I've recently edited the Gender Studies page to try to improve its quality and its depth, but the page needs a lot more work. As a practitioner of Gender Studies I was appalled at its lack of clarity and references. Its section Gender in Psychology is tagged as biased - frankly the section is so badly written that it need to be deleted or drastically revised. The page needs more sections such as Gender Studies in Film Theory (i.e. Laura Mulvey), Literary Theory, Race Theory (i.e. Richard Dyer's 'White), Anthropology, Sociology and more. In my revision I've defined Gender Studies as: a field of Cultural Studies that analyzes the phenomenon of gender, both in people's lived experience and cultural representations. I recognize that such a definition needs debate and I want to invite it. Please look at my section on the Talk:Gender_studies page about the revision. For anyone about to edit the page, please only make changes that you can reference - the article needs more citation urgently. Also, I hope that my alterations have corrected any POV language and/or "weasel words" outisde the Gender in Psychology section. If anyone can help with this page please do. Cailil 00:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Gaze article

We're having an issue on Gaze. An article existed and was complained about for POV reasons by someone who seemed mostly unhappy with the discussions of male gaze. A lot of additions and edits were made that seemed to be fairly mechanical attempts to create an artificial equity. The debate was contentious & not getting anywhere; I picked it up from a CFD or harmonious editing call, and drafted some replacement text that, I hoped would both retain the critical points without raising the POV flags of the folks upset with feminist criticism. The main critic is engaged, but no other feminists / gender studies folks have weighed in to make sure that the rewrite looks good from that side, too. Please join discussion & edit the sample text -- thanks. Talk:Gaze --lquilter 21:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)