Wikipedia talk:WikiProject France/Archive 1

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Proposal: WikiProject France

Anglicisation

A few have undertaken the task of "Anglicising" French terms in Wiki articles (eg/: "Région => Region"; "Département => Departement") - there doesn't seem to have been any discussion about this, so any point of view would be welcome. THEPROMENADER 16:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Anglicisation2

I am all for using English terms in the English language Wikipedia when the English term exists and is used. This is not equivalent to dumbing down Wikipedia, but simply using English. --Bob 17:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but "department" in English is not the same as département in French, nor is préfet in French the same as "prefect" in English. Please provide a better argument. Physchim62 (talk) 17:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it is. Look at the OED entry : here --Bob 18:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, for me, the biggest thing is that the French use the english words in official english language websites/brochures etc. See: [1], [2], [3], [4]. This is besides them being in common use and appearing in the OED. --Bob 19:25, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The idea is to find something similar. Préfet is very damn close to prefect. In that case, nearly all country articles have to be rewritten to take into account such variations. In any case, prefect and department are used by many major news organizations to describe whatever specific intonation "préfet" and "département" might have. That's the whole point: most common name in English should be used, not to mention the fact English should be used in the first place. There is no way that you can argue that "préfet" is somehow so different than "prefect" that it cannot be used, unless of course, we want to confuse uninformed readers into saying "WTF?"... Région is nearly 100 percent close to region, and department and prefect are very close to préfet and département to be used as adequate English translations. Again, if we are going to make an exception because this is French, then we would have to rewrite tens of thousands of articles for nearly all non-Anglo-Saxon countries, since all languages are equal, right? :)) Baristarim 18:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The OED disagrees with the claim of difference; one of the definitions of "prefect" is "representing préfet" prefect, sense 1d. Prefect has other meanings, but so does préfet; and they are largely the same other meanings. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Are we discussing the use of English in the body of the article, or simply in the article title? WP:UE is specific to naming conventions, not the article itself. If we're discussing the body, then significant judgment must be exercised when making "translations." For now, I'll just say that one shouldn't auto-replace a word just because it "looks like" and English word. There's no obvious reason why a French Région should be treated differently from a Swiss canton (or an Ecuadoran canton, for that matter). Canton is not commonly used in English, but it's not "translated" as state or county or some such. Région is a French word, and when used in a French context, it has a "French" meaning that may be quite different from the English word Region used in an English-language context. WP:UE already gives latitude for non-English article titles, and logically, even more latitude should be given for the body of the article, in which it's easier to provide additional context, links, etc. --Ishu 17:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The word Canton is used in English and is in common use already. --Bob 19:25, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you could provide some examples. Wiktionary and dictionary.com do not seem to agree that canton is an English word in an equivalent sense. --Ishu 21:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Easy, look at the second link you gave me: 2. (in a department of France) a division of an arrondissement. they even used the english spelling of department, furthering the usage of the english words. Also, look at the OED definition: [5]--Bob 23:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

No it doesn't. There is no way that someone can argue that "région" is somehow so different than "region" that it cannot be used. Open up a dictionary and search for the translation of Région to English.. What do you get? As for the French regions, what is important is how they are referred to in English. Nearly all encyclopedias and news organizations are likely to say "the Lower-Normandy region of France" and not "the Basse-normandie région of France". I actually ran into someone who tried to delete my addition of the translation of Basse-Normandie since he said "that's an administrative region, there is no need to say that it means "Lower-Normandy"".. Go figure.. I know French, I wouldn't have problems, but unfortunately not everyone knows French, and they don't have to in any case. This encyclopedia is for people who can speak English, not for French school children. :) Baristarim 18:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

And "région" doesn't have a different meaning when used in the French context. It is the French word for "region". I have been running into this problem ever since I came to Wikipedia, and that's why I find a bit annoying that such an obvious fact needs to be explained in the first place. I heard the fact that "région" can refer to the administrative regions in France, and that's why it might have a special meaning. I am sorry, it doesn't. In French, when people refer to the regions of Italy, they also use the word "région" and not regioni. Région is the common name used in French to refer to what region might and does refer to in the English language. In that case, we can modify nearly every article about non-Anglo-Saxon country, place, biography etc. Republic in French doesn't mean the same exact thing as in English either I suppose, but it is 99 percent the same. Heck, even "human rights" might carry a different meaning philosphically in French than in English, so should we say "Droits de l'homme in France" instead of Human rights in France? :) That's all. Baristarim 18:14, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Ishu does make a valid distinction. Article titles are intended, as WP:NAME says, for readers rather than editors; for a general audience rather than specialists - the distinctions of the specialists should be introduced in the text. There's no reason an article can't begin by saying the "prefecture (Fr. preféture), or capital, of the department (Fr. départment)"; then, having defined the term for the monoglot, go on to discuss the preféture and départment (italicized). What would be wrong is to use "prefecture" (in France; Rome and China are different) without explaining that it's not a territory.

On the other hand, there's no great harm in using "prefecture" and "prefect" throughout; many English books do. To do anything clumsy in order to avoid the English words is wrong; and we really do want to avoid sounding like the Victorian travel books that use gare and rue and au pied de la lettre to show off that the author has actually Been Abroad. What both Twain and Fowler mock should be avoided. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a reference work in English. The articles in it should use English vocabulary whenever possible, regardless of whether a few people might consider the specific use of a certain term to be not "common." If, in a major English dictionary, a term has among its meanings a sense that is equivalent to that of its cognate in another language, there is no question that the English term is valid and preferable. We should not use foreign terms to describe something for which there is a perfectly good English word, merely out of fear that anglophone readers might balk at gaining new awareness of the scope of a word's meaning. If people want to limit their awareness of the diversity of the English language, they have only to watch, listen to, and read major media sources in the U.S., who all work tirelessly to reduce the public's vocabulary.

As for French terms, a huge portion of our English vocabulary comes directly from French, so many of our words naturally have the same meaning as their French cognates. Readers who are interested in French topics will likely already be aware of this fact or willing to accept it. Those reading about administrative divisions in France, for example, are not going to flounder in the middle of an article when they encounter the word "department" being used for "département." If they're not already familiar with that English use of the term, they're going to adapt on the fly--say to themselves "Oh, our word means what the French word does--whaddaya know!"--and continue on their merry way in the article. This epiphany will be quick and painless, I promise. Some examples of EN-FR cognates:

department

region

prefecture

-Eric ^(talk) 19:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

It's all a question of context. What struck me most in the above was ' Nearly all encyclopedias and news organizations are likely to say "the Lower-Normandy region of France" and not "the Basse-normandie région of France" ' - not only is this an unfounded assumption, this outlines exactly the potential problems of French terms "Anglicised" into words commonly used and understood in a way typical to the English language. The point is that, in the first phrase I cite, an English speaker will most likely not recognise the word "region" for what it is: a real and fixed political entity. One can just as easily say "the Lower-Normandy area of France" and it would have the same meaning to the uninformed reader. Yet writing "X in the Lower-Normandy région", with "région" properly italicised to boot, leaves no doubt that "région" is a real and existing French administrative district with its own distinct meaning. Apply the same argument to "département" if you will. THEPROMENADER 20:22, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who understands the finer points of English and French will be able to tell you that région and region have two very different meanings. Dictionaries (and the OED is not the only one) define region as a general geographic area without fixed boundries. The French sense of the word région is a very fixed administrative division ; as such, pasting the English term on top of the French one invites ambiguity and dumbs-down wikipedia. The difference between département and department is even greater, since in English a department isn't at all territorial. Departments in English are used to speak of gouvernment bureaux or parts of large stores or companies. I'm shocked that I have to explain these differences to a group of people who claim to have fluent knowledge of French. --Aquarelle 20:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

This user has just obfuscated both the English definition and use of department and the French definition and use of département. The same applies to region and région. --Bob 23:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I am not involved in this project, and came across this discussion by accident, but I would like to add my two pence' worth to what is a significant debate. I would expect any editor to respect the use of foreign language words when they: (a) are relevant in context, or (b) differ in meaning and/or usage. The above comment explains that very well. I would consider that to be a logical extension of the approach taken by Wikipedia's guidelines on British versus U.S. English: the appropriate, relevant, and necessary usage of French words and spellings in their proper context deserves the same respect. Adrian M. H. 21:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) I was invited to join this conversation, which probably means that a prior participant expects they know what I will say. I don't usually edit French geography articles, so feel free to ignore me if you wish. My preference would be to use the local words for proper nouns, and common nouns words that don't have an exact translation in English. As someone noted above, région and département have well-defined French meanings that are not what an English speaker would expect region and Department to mean out of context. We also use "Oblast" in some Russian articles, presumably as the word does not translate neatly to English. I'd say be careful that you don't lose an anglophone by using too many foreign words, but this is the English wikipedia - there is a Simple English wikipedia for people less literate in English, so precision should be favoured over simplicity. --Scott Davis ^Talk 21:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The English word "county" doesn't have the same meaning when you are talking about a "county" the UK as it has when you are talking about a "county" in the U.S. That doesn't keep us from using the word, doesn't keep people from understanding that when you are talking about administrative subdivisions of a country, the context of the local practices provides part of the meaning of the word. Thus we get along quite well using "department of France" as having a more specific meaning than just the word "department" in general. Gene Nygaard 22:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, for lack of a better word editors have had to settle for over-extending the usages of county, but when a better option exists we take it. For example the term "parish." Are you proposing that we fill all the France-related articles with the repeated use of "department of France" instead of just saying département ? That strikes me as going out of our way to be English-only. Unfavourable ! --Aquarelle 22:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Sorry, Gene Nygaard: I don't see the relevence. "County" is recognisable as an administrative entity in all languages and usage; English "region" and "department" can be many things, even a descriptive noun. THEPROMENADER 22:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I will also point out that the French terminology is used in English-language texts such as those written by the French government's statistical agency (the INSEE) and by several France guidebook (such as the one sitting in front of me on my desk). IMHO, Wikipedia should not be tailored to xenophobic readers, and these French words flow very nicely with the English article (I couldn't care less what Mark Twain thinks about it. He made a living from complaining and mocking everything he came across). --Aquarelle 21:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The English words are used by INSEE in recent reports. Just take a look at these reports from INSEE:

• http://www.insee.fr/en/ppp/ir/accueil.asp?page=SD2004/dd/sd2004-dep.htm
• http://www.insee.fr/en/ppp/ir/accueil.asp?page=SD2004/dd/sd2004-mar.htm
• http://www.insee.fr/en/ppp/ir/accueil.asp?page=SD2004/dd/sd2004-cartes.htm
• http://www.insee.fr/En/ffc/Fiche_doc.asp?doc_id=1302&path=&zip=
• http://www.insee.fr/en/ppp/ir/SD2004/dd/pdf/SD2004_carte4.pdf
• http://www.insee.fr/en/ppp/ir/accueil.asp?page=sd2004/doc/lexique.htm#P3

Also, it used by the French government in brochures about France:

• http://www.cotesdarmor.com/uk/espace-pro-observatoire.php
• http://www.ambafrance-us.org/atoz/descript.asp#6
• http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/france_159/discovering-france_2005/profile-of-france_1977/index.html#sommaire_6
• http://www.premier-ministre.gouv.fr/en/acteurs/gouvernement/

Besides this, the term département also has other meanings in French outside of the administrative subdivision context, just as the English term does. I am very surprised that User:Aquarelle is unaware of this, especially as he speaks fluent French. --Bob 22:53, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, the term région does not only mean a fixed administrative definition in French, as it can be used to define many different things. One should not obfuscate... --Bob 22:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I did make mention above about context. When browsing through an INSEE document or website, we can be sure that what we're reading about has something to do with French demographics or administrative divisions. One already has a context (or pretext) for understanding even before reading such documents, as it is dictated by the locale he is reading in. English "region" and "department" in generalistic Wiki articles do not have this context. THEPROMENADER 23:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

And my argument is that there is context on a page such as Vaucluse. To the average reader, do you think that using the French term département is any better than the English term? the French government doesn't seem to think so. This Vaucluse article states:

The Vaucluse is a department in the southeast of France.

To the right there is a map with the location. Using the term département does not aid in the understanding.

The French government describe their administrative setup as [6]:

The French Republic comprises:

• Metropolitan France, divided into 22 regions and subdivided into 96 departments
• Four overseas departments (DOM) - Guadeloupe, Martinique, Guyane (French Guiana) and Réunion
• Five overseas territories - French Polynesia, Wallis and Futuna, Mayotte, Saint Pierre and Miquelon and the French Southern and Antarctic Territories
• and one territory with special status: New Caledonia

--Bob 23:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, explaining things here is not explaining things in the article itself - even that list has its own context (you don't even need proper nouns to understand the signification of each term explained like this - In even "divided into 22 wonks and subdivided into 96 weevils" we would understand what wonks and weevils are) - even this discussion has its own context to help our understanding! Yet place a word without context or further explanation, or worse still one with recognisable multiple meanings in its use in its own language (worse still: if the same has (an)other meaning(s) than its native-language counterpart), and you've added a level of ambiguity to what should normally be a straightforward label for a precise thing.

Your example is a good one: as far as ''The Vaucluse is a department in the southeast of France.'" is concerned, I'd have to say that, again, the meaning and purpose of the word "département" in "The Vaucluse is a départment in the southeast of France." is much much clearer to any and all readers. Département in French, in this context, has a precise use and meaning, used like this it is even labelled as such, and for clarity it should be left that way if at all possible. THEPROMENADER 00:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you and, specifically, with Aquarelle's point that "Dictionaries...define region as a general geographic area without fixed boundries. The French sense of the word région is a very fixed administrative division; as such, pasting the English term on top of the French one invites ambiguity and dumbs-down wikipedia. The difference between département and department is even greater, since in English a department isn't at all territorial..." I think most English readers completely unfamiliar with French, upon encountering "department" in a sentence where département is meant, would get the vague sense that it was simply someone's poor vocabulary choice, because no native English speaker would use "department" in that way. Upon encountering "region" where région was meant, the same reader would emerge with the wrong understanding that an official, precise administrative unit is, instead, an unofficial, imprecise geographical area. Despite their superficial similarity, the words are sufficiently different in meaning to be false friends. In such cases, the simplest solution is best and briefest: use the French words in lieu of the English words. If that would leave the reader unclear, then resort to English, adding sufficient context to clarify meaning. The argument that "only English should be used in an English encyclopedia" doesn't fly because English encyclopedias have never recoiled from deploying a foreign word when no English term conveys the same, well, nuance -- that's how English enlarges itself, by naturalizing foreignisms. Vive la différence -- et l'assimilation! Lethiere 05:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

One shouldn't cherry-pick definitions to fit your own POV. If you look up the word region in any decent dictionary, you will find another definition that states something to the effect: an administrative division of a city or territory. [7]. Are you aware that England is divided into regions and Scotland was 11 years ago? These regions had/have very specific boundaries. For department see elsewhere. Therefore, your entire argument is baseless. --Bob 20:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but if context is what we require, then using the French word adds nothing to that phrase and is just as ambiguous, probably more so IMO. Especially as département means many other things outside of the administrative setup, something which is being heavily overlooked in this discussion. --Bob 00:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Mais non, mon cher. Using the French proper noun for a specific French appelation practically brands it into the reader's mind that that word either is a precise object, is a name, or has a precise meaning and definition - in its own language. We are not seeking to "Frenchify" adjectives or descriptive terms here; we are discussing the translation of precisely-named French administrative entities. THEPROMENADER 00:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow——amazing that this has become a debate! Here we go: the English word “department” comes from the French word “département,” and means in English what “département” means in French, especially when you make that clear in the context of your English Wikipedia article at the first instance of the word in that article. Look in good English dictionaries for confirmation. Whew, can we go back to work now?

I think the raison that some personnes are résisting the anglicisation is dû to the possibilité that they are incapable of making the observation that a vaste——is it possible prédominante?——proportion of English words came into the langage directly from French. As a conséquence, these personnes have difficulté in using the application of logique in an argument seeking a résolution to a problème, a problème that should not éxiste because it is évident that editors of the anglophone Wikipédia should compose their articles in English, and those on the francophone Wikipedia should composer their articles in French.

Do I finally make myself clair, or should I composer the reste of this in français as a démonstration that I am not content to go under the appellation of “xénophobe”? When you keep présenting illogical arguments in the face of multiple démonstrations that your idées are fausse, it might forcer us “xénophobes” to supposer that you have not read the simple raisons we make clair above, or that you refuse to accepte that termes can have multiple connotations—and that in a properly introduced contexte a lesser-known connotation can servir admirablement in that article. Your refusal to confronter the réalité that your insista(e)nce is illogical risques to exposer a penchant for faux jugement. (Note: I’m not sure if the words in italics are in English or French). -Eric ^(talk) 00:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

lol Je partage la même opinion que PMAnderson et Eric. Use English. Any possible ambiguity would be set aside at the first mention of a term, along the lines of "a department (Fr. départment)". If one of our readers is unable to properly contextualize words even after such a clarification at the first mention of a term, he won't be able to understand the rest of the article anyway. - Regards, Evv 01:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

We are not translating "chien" into "dog" here. Départment is more than a noun - it is a proper name for a very particlular thing. Same with région and canton - each is an appellation for a fixed and very definable entity. Again, the English translation may not be recognised as such if the "translated word", should its real definition be unknown to the reader, has several meanings - this is the very reason that the overwhelming majority of concerned article contributions have used the original French version, and this is most likely why none until now have proposed any Anglicisation of such "proper name" terms. Again, is is most 100% certain that an italicised département is not the "department" that most English-speakers know and use every day. Flip the word into an ambiguous but imprecise English translation, and you remove that certainty of comprehension. Let's keep it simple.THEPROMENADER 16:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)