Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethiopia/History

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Contents 1 King infoboxes 2 Medieval King infoboxes 3 Walashma dynasty 4 Richard Pankhurst 5 Emperor collaborations 6 Ethiopian history articles 7 Usage of Dervish vs. Mahdist

[edit] King infoboxes

I've recently added succession boxes to all of the Aksumite rulers. I feel as if the chronology is certain enough to add it for now & with any changes we can always update it. Otherwise links to the rulers right now would be minimal (until we get Kingdom of Aksum expanded). I was thinking a good thing to do would be to have an infobox for every ruler from Endubis to Armah that had one of the better preserved Obverses of their coin for their image, followed by perhaps some standardized information (e.g. bisi name & tentative date & Ella name) underneath it, as well as the succession box there. What do you guys think? The same would be appropriate for the Solomonid & Zagwe rulers if we can get images for them, even if they're not contemporary. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 21:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Note that the images could be gotten from Munro-Hay's book (drawings) or from here (actual coins) by claiming fair use, which I think would work in this case. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 04:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I considered adding succession-boxes for these rulers when I created these articles but decided not to, because for most of them not only their reigns but their order (& in some cases their very existence) is disputed. Adding a succession-box would give a lustre of certainty where there still is none. However, now that Yom has done this I don't see any reason to undo it unless this becomes the basis of a disruptive & irreconcilable flamewar. (And, for the record, I can't see this happening in the foreseeable future.) -- llywrch 16:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

PS - More importantly, I believe that creating articles -- let alone infoboxes -- for most of the "Later Axumite kings" would be pointless because all we know for most of them is their name. For a very few -- Degna Djan, 'Anbasa Wedem, & Dil Na'od -- there is enough material to write something about them, & two of them already have starts of articles. (And there is one other king of Axum who needs to be added to this list. He's known only thru inscriptions, & I keep forgetting to create an article about him. Can't remember his name offhand, though.) -- llywrch 16:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I definitely agree with regards to the later kings. Most are simply legendary and based off of the kings' lists, are they not? What do you think about my image proposal, though? Do you think they would qualify as fair use (and if so, what about for Axum coinage?)? — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 16:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea (I forgot to write about that, sorry), although I'd guess that these images may actually fall under public domain. (Can an image of a 1500-year-old coin be copywritten? Museums will say yes -- even if it's not so, I know of at least one Wikipedian who will argue no.) Best to check with other folks in the relevant part of Wikipedia to be certain. (Either Wikipedia-legal-L or one of the Talk pages, I'm not sure.) As for infoboxes, could we wait on that until we have more articles with adequate content? Nothing can ruin the appearance an otherwise acceptible article like too many infoboxes. -- llywrch 17:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Too many infoboxes when articles are short are definitely ugly, but I'm planning on expanding all of them (though not all can be expanded to GDRT's length). I meant that we could merge the image of the ruler's coin, the naming info (i.e. bisi name, regnal name, and Ella name when applicable.) and succession box into a single infobox in the right hand corner, similar to what's been done for the Ottoman empire Sultan articles. I'll go ahead and upload the pictures later today with the explanation and bring up the copyright issue at Wikipedia Legal, but I don't think there'll be a problem. I would ask permission, but I'm not quite sure how to get a hold of the guy, so if you find out, just let me know. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 19:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

From what I've understood of the many conversations on the topic of licensing images for Wikipedia, most important is to add the proper license when you upload it. Images that don't have licensing info will be promptly deleted -- probably on the one day you decide to take a break. I'd just mark them as "out of copyright" & my explanation above (it's an image of a 1500-year-old coin), & wait to see whether anyone complains. -- llywrch 21:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know that photos of ancient images (I guess it's because it shows no creativity in that it's just an obverse and reverse image) couldn't be copyrighten. I wish I had a scanner (I'll have to go to a library), as I have a couple good images in Pankhurst's The Ethiopian Borderlands that I want to upload. It's an excellent source, and has contemporary portraits of Ras Mikael Sehul and his enemy, the Oromo Woodage Asahel (I have no further information on him), who could be used to replace the image of Dejazmach Bulcha in the Oromo article (it also has a portrait of Emperor Dawit I, but that's already uploaded and used on the Lebna Dengel page). I'll start uploading the coin images now. Did my comments regarding the infobox clarify what I meant, by the way? Do you still oppose it, or should we use it? — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 22:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

(Refactoring indenting) The issue about copyright of ancient art is mostly caught up over the question whether museums can restrict the publication of their holdings thru manipulation of -- er, recourse to -- the law. Personally, I try to avoid the issue by only using objects where the image itself either is in the public domain -- or is so visible that the museum would need to prove that I infringed upon someone's copyright -- but that's just my strategy. (BTW, something that I thought about after I posted the above is that there is one numismatic authority that allows their images to be reproduced freely. I don't remember the name of this source, but someone over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics might know what I'm talking about.)

As for the infobox issue, I guess my opinion has been influenced by how the articles about ancient Egyptian pharaohs have evolved. Infoboxes are easy to create, so it's tempting to shove material into them (& I'll admit, they provide an accessible & easy-to-read precis of the subject). I still think that adding them to these articles is not the best thing, but if you start adding them I'm not about to go along behind you & remove them. :-) -- llywrch 01:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think the infoboxes add a face to the name and sort of make for easy navigation (through the higher position of succession boxes, which will become an issue in some of the articles which will become longer), as well as being aesthetically pleasing. I can't see adding more to the infoboxes, though. The standardized info I proposed earlier might work, but it'd be lopsided since "Ella" names are only known for a few kings, and since bisi names are known for all the early kings, but none of the later ones (excluding Lalibela). Speaking of the infoboxes, there's an extra row at the very bottom of all of the infoboxes (empty) that's bugging me, but I can't figure out how to get rid of it. Do you have any idea? Also, I have a bunch of images for coins for the kings to add (in gallery format) that I haven't uploaded yet. What's your opinion on this? Should I wait until adding more information? Also, I'd like some help over at Axum coinage. There's more information to be added, and with some more images and copy-editing, I think we can get it up to FA status, which should generate some interest for WikiProject Ethiopia as well. I'm also halfway done with the Great Oromo migration article (another one that I think can be FA if we can find some images), which refers to a lot of provinces, so I'm thinking of making a big map of ancient Ethiopian provinces sans borders as a base for other maps to be created. The only problem is, I don't have a very large blank map (preferably with major rivers like the Blue Nile, Awash, Omo, and Wabi Shebelle) on which to start putting names (which should be easy and quick if I have the map). Anyway, that's just my plan, and I would like some help in it, but it's not strictly necessary. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 03:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Medieval King infoboxes

What do you guys think about an infobox for kings of the Solomonic dynasty and perhaps Zagwe that would incorporate years ruled (absent for the Zagwe), birthyear/date and place (when available), deathyear/date and place (when available), and Regnal name. All of the emperors should use a biographical infobox, but I think it would be useful to have regnal names in the infobox and, if we choose to incorporate it in the main text (for those where the regnal name isn't important, obviously not for kings like Libne Dingil), we would mention the name outside of parentheses at the end of the first sentence or later in the introduction. I say out of parentheses because they're already getting very long from the transliterations and Ge'ez script. Of course, portraits and images would be difficult to get ahold of for most, but we could make do with some later Gonderine interpretations for most. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 04:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Walashma dynasty

I've run into a problem regarding the earlier Walashma dynasty rulers. First of all, there's apparently an earlier Sabr ad-Din Nahwi ibn Mansur ibn 'Umar Walashma` (the first) who founded the dynasty, dying near the turn of the century (inheriting rule from a man called Bäzitu -> Bazitu per Arabic transliteration? who ruled 1279-99, but these numbers disagree with EncycAeth.).

(Splitting Yom's paragraph to answer specific points.) This would be Sabr ad-Din I; the dates before 1400 are very uncertain, & the battle he fought against Amda Seyon I has been dated to 1328 by Taddesse Tamrat, & to 1332 by Huntingford. I have more confidence in Taddesse Tamrat's chronology, but I felt that Wikipedia's NPOV guideline required me to mention both.

According to my notes, Taddesse Tamrat states in his Church and State in Ethiopia that Umar Walashma first appears in recorded history in 1277, originaly based in Adal. He conquered Shewa, & finally killed the entire ruling Mahzumite dynasty in 1285. Taddesse Tamrat draws this from the "Dynastic chronicle", in which the account of events varies in places from what al-Makrizi records. I can only hope that he evaluated the evidence correctly.

The Sabr ad-Din put as "I" right now is named as the Second by Pankhurst. I don't know how he's classified by EA as that issue isn't out yet and they simply name his full name (without ascribing a number - Sabr ad-Din b. Dalhuy b. Mansur), differentiating him this way from the founder of the dynasty (though they don't say this explicitly), but not helping in the numbering. The real problem is with Haqq ad-Din, as there were 3 of them. The way the dynasty is set up now recognizes only 2 as legitimate rulers, but completely different from how EA does it. The first one was ca. 1301/2, the second ca.1320s (according to his article 1328 - only pre=1332 in EA), and the third ca. 1376/7-86 (which doesn't fit the Ethiopian sources as noted in the article). EA has the 1301/2 one as the first and the late 14th c. one as the second, choosing to call the middle one simply a governor for Sabr ad-Din since he wasn't mentioned in the list of the Walashma rulers by Maqrizi. Some apparently identify him with the first Haqq ad-Din (i.e. the one EA says r. 1301/2), among them Basset, Perruchon, and Huntingford. They do not, however, list Pankhurst (they only mentioned the above three). His book was released in 1997 (the EA for D-Ha in 2005), which may mean it was ignored thus far, but it could be because he didn't make this identification, but it's not certain. How should we reconcile this? — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 08:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

First, I'm pretty sure that our Haqq I fits the first one of your list (ca. 1301/2), & Haqq II fits the third. The first Haqq did exist: he was one of the 5 sons of Umar Walishima. (The other 4 being Bazan, Sabr ad-Din, Jamal ad-Din I & Nasr ad-Din [no article for him].) Trying to remember what I read, I think I remember one author mentioning a governor Haqq, but the personal details that would help distinguish between these Amirs with the same name are so few that I'm honestly not certain whether the primary sources distinguish 3 different people of this name, or that our secondary authorities are guessing whether there are 2 or 3 men of this name. I grew frustrated trying to reconcile the differing accounts in the primary sources thru what more recent writers reported was written. (I'm not sure if the "Dynastic chronicle" and/or al-Makrizi have been translated into English; having one or both at hand would help me understand just what the authorities are trying to do.)

Are you sure Haqq I is ca. 1301 on Wikipedia? The text says fl. before 1332 and describes Amde Seyon (r. 1314-1344) attack on him, exactly the same as the events in the Amda Seyon I article regarding the 1328 Haqq ad-Din. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 21:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The materials I constructed this series of articles from leaves a lot to be desired. While J. Spencer Trimingham has information about the entire dynasty, he excludes lesser-known members, & I'm growing more convinced that he has made some mistakes. Taddesse Tamrat is quite good about the persons he mentions, but only covers the earlier memembers of this dynasty -- up to about 1450. Pankhurst likewise is good for what he covers, but doesn't cover everything. As a result, I know there is a lot of missing information -- but I was unable to uncover more information about these people before I moved on to other topics.

I also suspect that I made mistakes in trying to fit these pieces together; unfortunately Yom, you're the first person who has a clue about this subject to check my work. In some places here all I could do was guess, & hope more information would be availabel soon. -- llywrch 05:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I wish I had Trimingham and Huntingford's books. They're often referenced, but I don't have anyway to check what they actually said to make sure no interpretation is in the text. I'll try to work everything out, but the best thing to do might be to ignore it on the Amda Seyon page and note the controversy on all of the relevant individual Walashma pages. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 21:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Another thing just came up. The page is at Wedem Arad, but (as the German Wikipedia notes), apparently he was also called Wedem Rä`ad, which is where he is listed in Encyclopaedia Aethiopica. Which title should we use? The issue of EA with W in it hasn't come out yet, so I don't know how we should list him. Taddesse Tamrat also uses "Widim Rä'ad." — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 23:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

That is odd; I honestly haven't seen his name spelled any other way, & don't remember Taddesse Tamrat spelling his name as "Widim Rä'ad" in his Church and State. (I may be misremembering this, but I'm sure that both Henze & Budge give the last part of his name as "Arad". In any case, we need to at least include this variant in his article. -- llywrch 05:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

He spelled it "Widim Rä'ad," but I believe he noted "(also Arad)" or "(also Ar`ad)" or something like that, which is what I presume EA will do. I'm just curious as to what the "correct" name is. Should we keep him where he is or list him at Ra`ad? — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 21:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Richard Pankhurst

I believe Richard Pankhurst has contributed a lot of historical information on Ethiopia. We should locate and use this resources to grow our project.

P.S. : I believe we should write an article on Richard Pankhurst for his notable work. Elfalem 06:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Good points, but I'm not sure if he'd be available. You could try to contact him through email if you could find it. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 04:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Emperor collaborations

While nothing on the scale of an actual collaboration, I was wondering if a good way to focus contributions related to history would be to go through the Solomonic Emperors (about whom there is plenty of literature) one by one and expand the articles. Users could still contribute to other Ethiopia-related (and History-related) subjects at the same time, of course, but the focus would be a particular Emperor until we got up to Haile Selassie (or we could add info about Mengistu and Meles Zenawi too, I guess). It would largely be unorganized, but I think it would be useful for coordinating edits and expanding these articles, as I find myself with a bunch of sources for different topics, but without a plan of action to improve all of these. I figure the Emperor articles are some of the most important history articles, and after that we can start focusing on religious figures and territories (and other periods of history, of course). What do you guys think? — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 03:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

A focus for our contributions is better than none -- even if it's not the best candidate. The only problem I see with selecting Emperors is that for some of them there is not enough material available to make decent articles about them: one example of this would be the Emperors during the Zemene Mesafint that I have rated "Low" importance. -- llywrch 17:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethiopian history articles

I just wanted to add that if one goes into the Persian empire article, you will see on the right hand side, it shows a list of rulers and when you click on each link it shows each era, and I was wondering if we could do this t the Aksumite article? Also Yom, i was wondering if you could make one BIG article on the WHOLE Ethiopian empire regarding the Aksumite Kingdom, Zagwe and Solomonoid. In my opinion, it shows that the Ethiopian empire had many kings. I would be glad to contribute as much time as possible to add to any ethiopian history related articles, the current one being the emperors article Cluckbang 20:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)Cluckbang

Such an article already exists -- History of Ethiopia. It needs a lot of work, though. -- llywrch 20:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Usage of Dervish vs. Mahdist

Should an attempt be made to standardize the usage of the term to describe the Sudanese encroachments of the 19th century? I understand that the historical term dervishi is falling into disrepute among contemporary scholars. 165.2.186.10 18:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)