Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Endangered languages

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[edit] Comments

Excellent idea. Chamorro language is one endangered language I have knowledge of. CyberAnth 20:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] collaborations

  • Just to see what can be done, I'm gonna create a "collaborations" section on the main project page. My idea for collaborations is that, instead of working intensely on one article for a short period of time, I would put up four. Then people could pop in and out, adding a little something to any one of the four over a longer period of time. Rather than high-intensity, narrow-focus collaboration, it would be lower-intensity, broader-focus collaboration.
  • My idea is to put up two "endangered languages" and two "language revitalization" links. However, I am not really sure which languages would be good ones for the "endangered languages" topics. I am open to suggestions...

--Ling.Nut 15:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good, from my experience with WP:MESO there's probably not yet the critical mass of active participants to expect too much rapid development, and so broader and longer focus would seem to be more achievable. Might like to start out with one of these from the Mesoamerican languages, since a few of those signed up are active in that area.--cjllw | TALK 02:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
That sounds good. Maybe I'll try to find one article that doesn't exist Misantla Totonac and one that has some good info but needs lots of TLC. Thanks! --Ling.Nut 06:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] extended leave of absence; anyone wanna take charge of the project?

Hi all,

I am very sorry to say that I'm cutting back my Wikipedia participation to nearly zero for an extended period. It will be at least 6 months before I take it up seriously again; perhaps even longer. I need time to study for my comprehensive exams (sometimes called "prelims") for my PhD.

Unfortunately, there's an extremely high probability that Wikipedia:WikiProject Endangered languages will be shut down. If anyone wants to take charge of it, become its leader, etc. then you should know that it's definitely OK! I would in fact be grateful.

I will almost certainly poke my nose into Wikipedia every so often, looking for messages etc., but will not do any serious work.

Thanks!! --Ling.Nut 20:25, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ling.Nut, Eeek! Please don't take this project down, it's a great idea. In my experience WikiProjects (like Wikipedias) can soldier on quietly for a long time before they hit a critical mass for mysterious reasons. The ideas in the collaboration section above seem like a sound (if modest) beginning. I'm going to look into Misantla Totonac, myself.
Good luck with your exams, thanks for starting this project, and look forward to your return! --babbage 21:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the encouragement! Now it's time for head/books/hit! Like I said, I'll be checking for messages in case I left any business unfinished, but won't be adding much if anything to anything. :-) --Ling.Nut 21:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Oops I missed part of your message. I'm not talking about taking the project down myself; others will do that. Apparently there are people who cruise around WikiProjects looking for inactive ones to kill. At least, I have heard of..mmm.. three that I know of & can remember at the moment... projects having to fend off such attacks. I would think those people should have something more productive to do... but... --Ling.Nut 23:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, that is an absurd way to "contribute" to Wikipedia. We'll keep the palisades up here while you're gone ☺ --babbage 21:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Let us keep Enlang alive! (please add your name to the list)

I think there is a (perhaps small but) significant number of Wikipedians here (and we can probably recruit more, with time) who will agree that this is an important project, well worth pursuing, and who are willing to do what we can to ensure that it survives and prospers. Ling.Nut has done a great service by acting to set this thing going, thereby creating an opportunity that we must all now seize.

It is my suspicion that there are several of us here who believe this, but perhaps none of us has come to the fore to volunteer ourselves as a new "leader" (in a manner of speaking) because (1) we're worried about the time commitment (or our time is already committed); (2) we're worried about the responsibility; (3) we feel inadequate to the task or don't know enough about it. (I include myself.) This does NOT mean we don't care about Enlang or are unwilling to help if we can.

If I am right about that, then what I think we have to do at this stage is attempt a COLLECTIVE COMMITMENT. Perhaps the above-mentioned limitations are true of all of us here and now as individuals but AS A TEAM, complementing (and encouraging) each other, we can still move forward on this project. I propose we make a move in that direction now, in response to Ling.Nut's announcement, and that the first move should be a symbolic re-confirmation of our willingness to keep the flag flying for endangered languages through this wikiproject. I know we have already created a list of participants, but it won't hurt to reaffirm our preparedness to do what we can and let Ling.Nut know that. So can I start the ball rolling? --A R King 08:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I WILL TRY MY BEST TO WORK TOGETHER WITH OTHERS TO DEVELOP ENLANG AND MAKE THIS PROJECT A SUCCESS

[edit] idea=resource sharing

left an idea on my talk page --Ling.Nut 02:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Best article on an endangered language?

Hi folks,

Are there any featured articles on endangered languages?

Have any suggestions for articles that we should try to emulate? --babbage 14:09, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the guidelines from WP:Languages should serve our purpose as well.Maunus 14:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Laal language, by Mustafaa, is featured. Aother featured article on a small, though not endangered language is Nafaanra language. Also, Nobiin is a fastly receding language and our article on it is reasonably close to FA standard (in fact I've been meaning to push for FAC but lately I have lacked the time to polish it). Sorry for plugging my own articles... — mark ✎ 15:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
In the time since this question was asked, Irish phonology and Mayan languages have both been featured. (Not all Mayan languages are endangered, though.) —Angr 05:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Immediate tasks

  1. Define our use of "endangered" - is Chamorro with 60,000 speakes endangered? Is Eyak with one speaker endangered? . Since this is a hopeless task that an only be largely arbitrary I think we should find an authority on language endangerment and stick to their definition.
  2. Search for existing articles on endangered languages and apply the [[Category:Endangered language]] to all of them in order to give us an overview of which languages have articles, and which ones still don't - many languages of north america that are close to extinction aren't tagged with the category yet. Most south american langauges doesn't even have articles.
  3. Then we need to review those articles to see how they can be improved, maybe we should make a rating scheme and templates etc. although I think we could do with out it and merely have a subpage here were we rate all articles centrally.Maunus 14:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
On that last point, I agree. It seems to be en vogue for every WikiProject to have their own huge banners and rating systems on the talk pages of even remotely relevant articles. Let's try to avoid that. — mark ✎ 15:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
  • The banners have "small" options; see Talk:Popora people. And the bot that compiles statistics is extremely convenient. But I have been sorta wondering if there will be a backlash against the system. For one thing, its omnipresence makes it seem lowbrow/populist & just plain overdone.
  • Another option is a hand-coded table (or tables), similar to the one currently on WP:ETHNIC. We were chipping away at that one, removing items as they were assesed in the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team's assessment system. Would hand-coded tables be organized geographically and then sorted by ranking.. or... or... ? You'd need to think very carefully about what columns you wanted to include; redoing them once started would be a pain in the neck. But if you talked it over and had a good format from the outset, then adding new elements to an existing table is not a big deal.
  • I'd like to get those tables that appear at the top of the project page out of my user space and into main space. I'd like to simply kill the List of endangered languages page altogether; the page would be 'huge if it were ever really seriously implemented. Replace it with the tables in my user space (erm, after moving...).
  • That's all! --Ling.Nut 17:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
To the first question above, sheer numbers alone aren't good enough. If the 60,000 speakers of Chamorro are all over age 50, it's endangered. If 30,000 of them are under age 25, it's not. (This is a rough rule of thumb, not a formal, citeable definition!) —Angr 05:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] file sharing

No one responded to my idea, which I take to mean that no one thinks it's worth the trouble. :-) But I made the folder anyway, to get rid of my Totonac files without deleting them. You can email me for details etc. if you want access to the storage I created. --Ling.Nut 23:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ling.Nut, Sorry, I didn't mean to imply by my silence that your idea is not worthwhile, I'm just a bit busy with (as some people like to put it) "real-life" duties at the moment. I imagine your proposal will be useful. Perhaps we need a mini-tutorial on how to use it? :-) Cheers, Alan --A R King 10:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
In my case I think I just didn't understand it well enough to have an opinion on it. I think a mini tutorial might be a good idea.·Maunus· tlahtōlli 11:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

(undent). I'm emailing both of you (if you have email set up). --Ling.Nut 15:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I was silent for the same reason as A R King, but it's actually a great idea. It's just that I'm afraid I won't have too much time to contribute in the following months. How much data does a Yahoo briefcase hold? I would be willing to make some of my sources available (stuff on Defaka, Dahalo, Dahlik, Nobiin springs to mind). — mark ✎ 16:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
You know what, one option would be to use the briefcase not so much (or not exclusively) for storage, but mainly as a means of exchanging files. That way storage capacity is unlikely ever to be an issue. For instance, Mark, if you would like me to have your source materials on X you can put them in the briefcase, let me know you've put them there for me, then I go in and download them (I can store them on my hard disk, a CD or whatever), let you know I've done so, and if necessary the files can be removed from the briefcase after that (at least if space ever becomes an issue). Actually, I like hoarding copies of material relating to endangered languages! I can share what I have, but the trouble is, most of what I have is from the internet anyway. Alan --A R King 17:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Only stores 30 MB. Need to zip all files; delete some after we are certain they are no longer needed. Also could get more than one briefcase, but that would begin to be a slight hassle. It might be worth the trouble; depends on how much file sharing we do... Also could use them as Alan suggested, as a medium of exchange. I suppose we also could get more storage elsewhere, but that might involve spending money, and I am rather allergic to that particular activity :-)
I already have one briefcase set up; have emailed Alan with details. I'll try to email you as well, Mark, if you have email set up. Maunus, I wasn't able to access an email option for you. :-)
Later, --Ling.Nut 18:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I enabled email earlier today when I saw your response.·Maunus· tlahtōlli 20:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, I got the email. Will take a peek soon. By the way, if space becomes an issue in the future, I could also set up a shared FTP account at my own domain (no limits on disk space). But for now, a Yahoo briefcase will probably do. — mark ✎ 14:12, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Either way is OK. I have many files re Kohanga Reo and Punana Leo, some of which are large (at least one dissertation, IIRC). But I don't know whether anyone has those two on their "to do" list.--Ling.Nut 16:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Ling.Nut: I have some experience and knowledge of both Hawaiian and Maori, and am hoping to do something on them some day, so I'd be interested in both of those. BTW I have a Punana Leo contact and some or their material too (but I'm not sure where). Nothing electronic though. Alan --A R King 22:37, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Ok I'll put those in the storage too. I think I'll copy the text of .pdf files (those that can be copied, anyhow) to .txt files, thus saving space. I dunno when I'll get around to it... certainly this week... --Ling.Nut 23:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can y'all do me a favor?

I'm not gonna log into Wikipedia at all for several months. Zero. Zip. Zilch. It is just too darn tempting to reply to messages, to add references, etc etc etc.

Can one or two of y'all keep my user page and talk page on your watch list(s)? I just don't want any heathen yahoos putting neo-Nazi shtuff or messages about who is gay or whatever on those pages. :-)

I will be checking my email daily, and am very happy to reply to any queries etc. Links are on both pages mentioned above.

Thanks!!! --Ling.Nut 02:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

OH PS — I forgot just one thing — could y'all watch the lists that are atop the WP:ENLANG project page, and are in my user space? After all, they are a part of this project... Thanks!! --Ling.Nut 02:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Endangered Language Fund: Native Voices Endowment

Considering the recent announcement on Linguist list, maybe someone should beef up the article about the Endangered Language Fund. --Ling.Nut 01:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Perhaps we should all pick a single language to work on for a while?

Hi folks,

It seems to me that it might make sense for the group to pick a single language to work on together. Of course not everyone will be familiar with the language or even the language family involved, but we could all research together and work on a language for, say, two weeks?

--babbage 05:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I propose we work on the Rama language and the Rama Cay Creole·Maunus· ·ƛ· 06:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I have this one:
  • Language shift and language death: the case of Rama in Nicaragua
  • C Craig - International Journal of the Sociology of Language, 1992
I also typed in Rama Nicaragua on Google Scholar and saw some promising-looking documents....as usual, I can't make promises. My wife and I have been resting for the past 2 or 3 days, and will probably rest tomorrow as well. But we really need to study for prelims. --Ling.Nut 21:07, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Rama sounds like a good choice, depending on how much information we can come up with. At first blush there seems to be more than what I found for Totonac (which I gave up on for lack of info). Incidentally, I have found a couple articles in Spanish, :
http://www.laprensa.com.ni/archivo/2005/mayo/08/opinion/
http://archivo.elnuevodiario.com.ni/1999/diciembre/08-diciembre-1999/nacional/nacional14.html
The second has a brief description of the phonology that we could use as a start. --babbage 01:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
(By the way, it's kind of hard to Google for Spanish resources since "rama" means "branch" in Spanish, heheh.) --babbage 01:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to keep replying to myself, but I would like to add that the more I've looked into this language, the more interesting it has become. There has been quite a bit of activity in terms of revitalization, too. I'm going to start leaving working notes on the discussion page at Rama language, hope to see some of you folks over there! --babbage 07:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

In response to a proposal over at the Endangered Languages Wikiproject, I am prepared to contribute a section on grammar to the article on Rama language. It will take me a few days or weeks depending on how much time I have available and also how much source material I can get hold of. If I could consult a full grammar I could produce a longer grammar sketch of the type I did in Miskito grammar, for example. I understand there is such a grammar but unfortunately I can't get hold of it unless it is available on-line anywhere or someone could provide me with some kind of access. Any help would be appreciated. If not, I'll do the best with what I find, and will at least provide some grammar notes, even if sketchy. (I'm posting this both on the Endangered languages project page and the Rama language discussion page.) --A R King 11:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I have found a huge amount of information on Rama at the following location: http://www.ailla.utexas.org/site/welcome.html Registration is required but it's free to use (just search for "Rama"). There are sound recordings, a dictionary (with a useful preface), and several stories. Although the Rama Language Project seems to have put together a grammar, it doesn't seem to be included among the resources on this site. I've also collected several links with some background information, I'll post those over at Talk:Rama language See you there! babbage 20:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC) ☺

[edit] Endangered languages (and language revitalization) discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals

Brief proposal and discussion of scope: User:Ling.Nut#Current_Projects

Skeletal project page: see top of page for links to lists of endangered languages that I have been working on:

User: User:Ling.Nut

Interested Wikipedians (please add your name):

[edit] Anybody have access to an electronic copy of this article?

HI,

  • Title: Thao Reduplication Source: Oceanic linguistics [0029-8115] Chang yr:1998 vol:37 iss:2 pg:277 -297

If you can get a .pdf of this article, could you please email it to me? Thanks! --Ling.Nut 01:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I checked my resources, and it's just a bit too old. I think what I have access to starts with Vol 38. No. 2 in 1999. Sorry ... Keesiewonder talk 01:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
yeah that's the problem I have, too.. but thanks for the attempt! :-)
  • I "might could" also use this article, if anyone has it:
  • Rightward Reduplication in Formosan Languages Revisited by Amy P. Lee
  • --Ling.Nut 01:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Is this it? [1] --Keesiewonder talk 01:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes indeed! I'm sorry I asked you to look for that when it was right there! I looked on Google scholar instaed of regular Google, and got only the abstract among the hits...
Thanks!!!--Ling.Nut 02:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
No problem; glad to help! Keesiewonder talk 09:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia offer on Linguist List

[edit] Interesting link FYI

I've been trying to re-locate a really nifty interactive-overlay PDF of BC aboriginal languages, created using the BC provincial government's MapPlace system in some kind of joint project with I think the Union of BC Indian Chiefs, or one of the major First Nations governments (neat if I can find it, will post the link here if I do) and came across this which looks like it's of interest in terms of general topics concerning endangered languages management/issues, so posting it here FYI for anybody who finds it interesting. If someone else happens to know where that zippy PDF map I'm talking about is, please let me know; it's an amazing application of MapPlace.Skookum1 00:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I poked around a bit looking for the map you mentioned, but was unable to find it. Am busy-ish now; perhaps in a week or two I'll devote more time to looking... Thanks for the link! :-) --Ling.Nut 21:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, as for the link it seems to have problems loading; the main mapplace map doesn't; not so often; has to do with server-load on the govt, or shoddy software maintenance or whatever (often the case with bc basemap and related services at maps.gov.bc.ca). The language map I was talking about was linked off one of the main BC First Nations pages, danged if I can remember which one; it was off an External Link; gonna have a look around again but there's lots of even "main" pages it might be on....if I find it I'll be back of course. the MapPlace tool, somewhere on the main page, for making your own maps, is pretty cool but like I said seems to have trouble loading; copyright-free map generation, at least for anything in BC.Skookum1 21:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New fora on American Indian languages at ProZ.com

Some of you may be interested to know that a new English-language forum and a new Spanish-language forum have just been opened at ProZ.com (a big website for professional translators all over the world) for the purpose of discussing issues about American Indian languages. It would be great to have input from more people, and perhaps some information flow between this project and such initiatives. I encourage people to take a look and see if they want to contribute, and I have also told the people on the Spanish forum there about WikiProject Endangered languages. See you there! --A R King 05:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The image on the talk page template

Right now, {{WPENLANG}} has a big white square on it. Is this supposed to represent the emptiness we all feel when a language dies? I'd like to replace it with something else. My first thought was Image:Oktava319.jpg, a picture of a microphone, to indicate an important tool of fieldworkers seeking to record endangered languages before they die. Any other thoughts? —Angr 14:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

My only idea, inspired by the old {{lang-stub}} image, was maybe some short word in IPA fading to white left to right. — Laura Scudder ☎ 16:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
That seems so negative. We want people to get excited about endangered languages, not depressed. (Okay, okay, a microphone isn't exactly exciting, and its relevance isn't immediately apparent either, I admit...) —Angr 17:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

(undent) I simply thought, no image is capable of capturing this concept. It is also an attention-grabber (witness this thread). To be honest, I support leaving it as it is for those two reasons, and 'not 'cause I chose it... Ling.Nut 23:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment?

I note on the WP:PROJDIR that this project is supposed to do assessments. Does anyone have a specific page of this project that I can link to there to let people see how you all are doing? Thank you. John Carter 00:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I think everyone agreed that we shouldn't have an assessment system.. nit sure why we are listed as having one... Ling.Nut 10:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, since all articles affiliated with this WikiProject are also associate with WikiProject Languages, which does have an assessment system, it would be superfluous for this WikiProject to have one as well. —Angr 15:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
OK. I removed the word "yes" which had been put in the assessment section. For what it's worth, I'm just trying to update the directory and ensure the links on it actually lead somewhere. For this project, there wasn't a link to another page, put just a link to the word "Yes", which was a bit confusing. John Carter 15:23, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pūnana leo & The Green Book of Language Revitalization in Practice

Hey, I just created Pūnana leo... does anyone have The Green Book of Language Revitalization in Practice at hand, to beef up the content of the article:

  • Wilson, W. H. & Kamana, K. (2001). "Mai loko mai o ka 'i'ni: Proceeding from a dream. The 'Aha Pūnana Leo connection in Hawaiian language revitalization" in L. Hinton & K. Hale (Ed.) The Green Book of Language Revitalization in Practice. San Diego, CA: Academic Press.
  • thanks Ling.Nut 14:52, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Spelling correction: 'i'ni is a typo for 'i'ini. Apparently the mistake got into the source from which this is copied (at least it shows up on a google search) but it is a mistake nonetheless. In Hawaiian the glottal-stop consonant or 'okina cannot precede another consonant! --A R King 05:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reconstructed languages

Category:Reconstructed languages may be relevant to you. Sai Emrys ¿? ✍ 10:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Not really; reconstructed languages are abstract constructs (like Proto-Indo-European) and have little relevance for endangered languages. —Angr 11:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent projects?

Hi fellow ENLANGites,

Anyone working on relevant articles of late? I just wrote what amounts to a glorified stub on Nuwa/Kawaiisu. (Still quite shoddy, but it's a start.) In the process I found a template that others might find interesting: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Languages/Template. Unfortunately for endangered languages many of the categories in the template are more or less irrelevant. Nonetheless, I found it to be useful for getting something started. I'd welceme revisions, and will seek out some more resources on Nuwa myself. Cheers, --babbage (talk) 23:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Userbox

I've made a userbox for those who want to show their membership of the project on their userpage. It isn't really very nice so if anyone wants to improve the design they are more than welcome. Its code is {{User Wp ENLANG}} and it looks like this:

ENLANG

This user is a member of WikiProject Endangered Languages.

.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 13:26, 29 February 2008 (UTC)