Wikipedia talk:WikiProject EastEnders/Archive 5

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 New talk page 2 The Butcher siblings... 3 Gallery on Sharon article 4 I also know that Wikipedia is not a forum BUT... 5 Wikipedia Day Awards 6 Schools 7 Images 8 Good article nomination 9 'In popular culture' section on the main article 10 Infobox - actor/image 11 A bit of useless information: 12 Social realism 12.1 Alcohol and drugs 12.2 Discrimination 12.3 Death 12.4 Families 12.5 Illnesses and disabilities 12.6 Mental disorders 12.7 Money 12.8 Pregnancy 12.9 Sex 12.10 Violence 13 CFD notice 14 Tony Hills question 15 In popular culture 16 Look! 17 Template:EastEnders 18 Vandalism to Phil Mitchell, Ben Mitchell (EastEnders) and Sonia Fowler 19 CFD notice 20 Walford Death Map 21 Listification of categories

New talk page

[Why do I always notify you all when I archive the old talk page?] The archive can be found here. Trampikey ^{(talk to me)(contribs)} 16:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The Butcher siblings...

Who was the eldest and when were they supposedley born?

I'm asking because the article for Pat Evans says that she met Frank in Clacton when she was 16. She was born in 1942, placing the meeting in 1958 - then it says that June got pregnant "soon after"... but Ricky was born in 1973 - 15 years later... so I'm asking- is Clare like 15 years older than the rest of them? Is Ricky younger than Clare and/or Diane? And how long is "soon after"? Trampikey ^{(talk to me)(contribs)} 16:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, Diane is older than Ricky, that much we do know (check their infoboxes). I always assumed Clare was the oldest. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 22:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Clare is definitely the eldest, and quite a lot older than the others as she was given Janine to look after when when June supposedly died in 1987. According to one book, Janine was 4 when that happened and Ricky and Diane were still at school. I cant find any dates for when Clare was born though. Gungadin 23:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

If Janine was 4 then Clare was probably in her 20s at least. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 00:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone seems to have put the wrong dob on Diane Butcher's infobox. She is younger than Ricky. Born in 1974, which is right because she ran away from home on her 16th bday in January 1990.Gungadin 00:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it was a typo. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 14:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

So we're guessing that Clare's the eldest and the one Frank cut ties with Pat over? (by the way - there's a rough timeline of events before 1985 on my sandbox) Trampikey ^{(talk to me)(contribs)} 22:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes Clare's the eldest, but even though Frank maried June when she fell pregnant, he didnt cut all ties with Pat. They continued their affair on and off for years supposedly. Even when she was married to Pete. I remember a bit of tension when Frank found out that Wicksy wasnt Pete's, and worried that he was the father, but was told he wasnt. Pat was a bit of a nimpho wasnt she :)Gungadin 01:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Gallery on Sharon article

I was thinking of putting a picture gallery on the Sharon Rickman article. I have numerous images of her over the years, looking entirely differnt in most of them and thought it would be good to put a gallery section in the article to show her changing styles. What do you think? and also do you know how to do it? or can any direct me to any article that I can copy a layout from? Gungadin 02:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it would go against the rules of fair use, as it's only fair use to use a limited number of images. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 10:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

And there's already 14 fair use images... that's probably too many. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 10:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I didnt think of that :( I'll get rid of some of the unnecessary images i put in Gungadin 12:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

K i got rid of some images, and took out some stuff in the article which was not relevant to Sharon, although there is probably still a lot of descriptive info about Chrissie, Sam, Den and his murder which isnt really necessary in this article, especially as Sharon wasnt even in the series when it occurred. If you think more images should be removed, then perhaps we should think about merging all the In Popular culture sections from each EE article into one article, like I have seen them do on other tv series on Wikipedia.Gungadin 17:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with that proposal, because it would just be the sme as the In popular culture section od the main article... Trampikey ^{(talk to me)(contribs)} 19:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Obviously we'd delete the "In popular culture" section and link to it on the main article. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 18:26, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, but I don't think there's enough content in the section as it is to create a new article... (Merry Christmas by the way!) Trampikey ^{(talk to me)(contribs)} 22:30, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Changed my mind - see below! -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 16:12, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I also know that Wikipedia is not a forum BUT...

Pauline's death was bloody stupid. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 21:54, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I'm wondering if that knock on the door will have have something to do with her death. Gungadin 02:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Mum? Mum? Mum? She's dead! At least shake her! At least get Sonia to check her over! Bloody stupid! — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 14:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

God you should've heard my father all the way through the Christmas episodes... "Garry and Cunty are up a fucking ladder dressed as Father Christmas!", [when Minty fell] "Why didn't he just fucking die?", [about Stacey] "Oooh that girl's got lovely legs!", [about Stacey after she slept with Max] "Why did she do that?! I don't like her now" Trampikey ^{(talk to me)(contribs)} 14:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

And my sister - "Did Betty die too?" Trampikey ^{(talk to me)(contribs)} 15:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh god, they sound terrible! But don't you think it was stupid that Martin just shouted at Pauline and then turned around and said "She's dead"? — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 16:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes! -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 16:13, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

And it's getting worse! If Dot had an ounce of sense she'd have asked Sonia her side of the story first. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 23:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Schools

Do Walford High School and Walford Primary School really need their own articles? They're very short and I think they should be merged with the list of buildings. What do you think? — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Maybe some of the other places should be merged into another article too - like Walford east and Albert Square, which are also fairly short.Gungadin 17:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Albert Square wouldn't fit into any of our current lists, so can't be merged. Not sure about Walford East either. Hmm that bit about Billy on the tube's been removed... :( I think both articles can be expanded to include events that have happened. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 23:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah- merge! -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 16:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Done! — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 23:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Images

I've just completed the task of populating Category:EastEnders images, at least as best as I can without actually going through every EastEnders article to check the images in them are categorised. If any of you want to do that, you're very welcome to. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 02:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all your hard work. If I come across any that you missed I will add the category, and i'll also make sure I add that cat next time I upload in the future.Gungadin 02:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Great stuff. The only ones I will have missed are ones that don't have links to EastEnders in the description page (such as Image:Demi miller ee.jpg, which I just found). I also used AWB to search for your image contributions, but it may not have given me a complete list. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 13:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Also you have to pipe the category (i.e. type [[Category:EastEnders images|{{subst:PAGENAME}}]] otherwise they'll be listed under the letter I. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 13:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Good article nomination

I've just nominated Pauline Fowler as a good article candidate. I didn't think any improvements could be made, it's well referenced and has lots of out-of-universe stuff, and there's not much to be added now she's dead, so I felt it was time to nominate! — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 20:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The same could possibly be done for Lou Beale... Trampikey ^{(talk to me)(contribs)} 20:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Although I do think we should remove the cast card links from the external links, because of copyright issues... the same reason links to youtube videos are removed. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 20:58, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I fully sourced most of the text, so hopefully they wont be failing it for poor sourcing now, although they probably wont like the length of in-universe stuff.Gungadin 00:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I hope the in-universe stuff won't be too much of an issue, with all the out-of-universe stuff that's there. If it fails for that reason, we'll either have to forget about nominating articles or go into less detail... I sincerely hope it passes, cos everyone's worked so hard! — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 15:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a good article, but some sections are definitely too detailed and over-written - I've cut "Deception and reclusiveness" down a little, but it probably needs to be trimmed some more (every single event in the storyline doesn't have to be quite so detailed!). Good luck with the featured article proposal! Stephenb (Talk) 16:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I've added some more out of universe stuff - Criticisms of the character and bits about her exit. The out of universe section could probably be put into subsections now, like "casting" "critcisms" and "notable storylines". does anyone think it's worth doing that? Gungadin 18:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Well done everyone, Pauline Fowler has been listed as a good article! — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 22:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

'In popular culture' section on the main article

Does anyone think it should be split off into a new article? Stuff could also be gathered from other 'In popular culture' sections on other articles, such as Pauline Fowler, and also added to the article. (I'm not saying that they should be removed from the character articles, just duplicated in a new article to increase content.) The article (which I think should be called EastEnders in popular culture) could be split into sections, i.e. 'Television', 'Music', etc. Also, I'm going to start a section in the article about the website and internet fandom - anyone have any ideas what I can write? It'll probably appear on my sandbox over the next few days - anyone's welcome to edit it! -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 16:11, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I think it's a good idea. I'm sure we're missing loads of references. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 23:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a few stored up in the memos on my phone. Like Vicky Pollard referring to her friends tits as "looking like the Mitchell brothers". -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 23:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Infobox - actor/image

The actor in the infobox is the last actor who played the character. In the case of Billy Jackson, this was Bluey Robinson. However, the image is of Devon Anderson. It looks a little strange and most people will associate Anderson with the role. Should we change the rule in cases such as this one (I'm sure it doesn't happen often) or should we try to find a screenshot of Robinson in the role for the infobox? — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 01:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

As it's the character's page, the image should be of the character, not neccessairily the actor, and the only image we have available of Billy at the moment is one of Devon Anderson. Though if anyone has the episodes with Martin and Sonia's wedding, a more recent picture of Billy would be great! -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course, it just looks strange having one actor's name with a picture of a different actor. Has any other character returned for only a short time to be played by a different actor? It would be great if we could find a picture of Robinson as Billy for the infobox, and move the Anderson picture down. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 10:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

A bit of useless information:

These are the characters who have links to their articles from the main EastEnders article (in order of where they appear in the article!):

• Pauline Fowler
• Arthur Fowler
• Mark Fowler
• Michelle Fowler
• Pete Beale
• Kathy Hills
• Ian Beale
• Lou Beale
• Peggy Mitchell
• Mo Harris
• Pat Evans
• Ethel Skinner
• Dot Branning
• Jules Tavernier
• Mo Butcher
• Nellie Ellis
• Jim Branning
• Patrick Trueman
• Huw Edwards
• Lenny Wallace
• Garry Hobbs
• Minty Peterson
• Den Watts
• James Wilmott-Brown
• Steve Owen
• Jack Dalton
• Andy Hunter
• Johnny Allen
• Sam Mitchell
• Chrissie Watts
• Zoe Slater
• Nana Moon
• Kat Moon
• Alfie Moon
• Dennis Rickman
• Little Mo Mitchell
• Deano Wicks
• Carly Wicks
• Kevin Wicks
• Bradley Branning
• Max Branning
• Tanya Branning
• Lauren Branning
• Abi Branning
• Bert Atkinson
• Denise Fox
• Chelsea Fox
• Squiggle Fox
• Rob Minter
• Sean Slater
• Oliver Cousins
• Elaine Jarvis
• SJ Fletcher
• Owen Turner
• Caroline Bishop
• Jack Edwards
• Liz Turner
• Stella Crawford
• Preeti Choraria
• May Wright
• Li Chong
• Shirley Carter
• Evie Brown
• Grant Mitchell
• Courtney Mitchell
• Ben Mitchell
• Sharon Rickman
• Frank Butcher
• Sue Osman
• Ali Osman
• Nick Cotton
• Gill Fowler
• Phil Mitchell
• Harry Slater
• Trevor Morgan
• Sonia Fowler
• Janine Butcher
• Jean Slater
• Stacey Slater
• Joe Wicks
• Keith Miller
• Darren Miller
• Billy Mitchell
• Honey Mitchell
• Janet Mitchell
• Kelvin Carpenter
• Tony Carpenter
• Saeed Jeffery
• Naima Jeffery
• Lofty Holloway
• Mary Smith
• Harold Legg
• Andy O'Brien
• Debbie Wilkins
• Sasha Perkins
• Kate Mitchell
• Juley Smith
• Derek Harkinson
• Dawn Swann
• Martin Fowler
• Dan Ferreira
• Ronny Ferreira
• Barry Evans
• Lisa Fowler
• Joe Macer
• Vicki Fowler
• Jake Moon
• Charlie Slater
• Ruby Allen
• Tiffany Mitchell

...just thought you might like to know... -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 23:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Why? — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 11:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually it's good to know so we don't have too much overlinking, but non-members won't look here for the list so we need to keep an eye on any additions to the page. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 11:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Social realism

Trying to gather together all issues highlighted in the show; take a look and try and help me out!

Alcohol and drugs

Alcoholism

• Phil Mitchell
• Lorna Cartwright

Drink driving

• Pat Butcher

Drug addiction

• Nick Cotton
• Janine Butcher
• Donna Ludlow

Drug dealing

• Nick Cotton

Drug production

• Martin Fowler

Discrimination

Homophobia

• (against) Colin Russell and Barry Clark

Racism

• Nick Cotton (Kelvin Carpenter, Ali Osman)
• Jim Branning (Alan Jackson)
• Darren Roberts (Matthew Jackson)

Death

Cot Death

• Hassan Osman

Euthanasia

• Ethel Skinner (Dot Cotton)

Murder

• Reg Cox (Nick Cotton)
• Eddie Hunter (Nick Cotton)
• Jack Dalton (Dennis Rickman)
• Barry Evans (Janine Evans)
• Andy Hunter (Johnny Allen)
• Den Watts (Chrissie Watts)
• Danny Moon (Jake Moon)
• Pauline Fowler (Sonia Fowler) (?)

Muder in self defence

• Saskia Duncan (Steve Owen)

Suicide

• Donna Ludlow
• Leo Taylor
• Clive Dixon

Vehicle-related

• Andy O'Brien (lorry)
• Charlie Cotton (lorry)
• Tiffany Mitchell (Frank Butcher's car)
• Stephanie Watson (Pat Butcher's car)
• Ashley Cotton (motorbike)
• Debbie Bates (car - hit and run)
• Pete Beale and Rose Chapman (car - hit and run)
• Steve Owen (car)
• Jamie Mitchell (Martin Fowler's car)

Families

Adoption

• Rebecca Miller (Sonia Jackson/Martin Fowler → Neil Miller/Sue Miller)
• Donna Ludlow (Kathy Hills/Marcus Duffy → Gerald Ludlow)
• Sharon Rickman (Carol Stretton/Gary → Den Watts/Angie Watts)
• Janet Mitchell (almost)

Adultery

• Arthur Fowler (Pauline Fowler/Christine Hewitt)
• Cindy Beale (Ian Beale/Simon Wicks, Ian Beale/David Wicks)
• Ruth Fowler (Mark Fowler/Conor Flaherty)
• Den Watts (Angie Watts/Jan Hammond, Angie Watts/Michelle Fowler, Chrissie Watts/Zoe Slater)
• Frank Butcher (Peggy Butcher/Pat Evans)
• Pat Evans (Roy Evans/Frank Butcher)
• Irene Raymond (Terry Raymond/Troy Harvey)
• Sharon Mitchell (Grant Mitchell/Phil Mitchell)
• Phil Mitchell (Kathy Mitchell/Lorna Cartwright)
• Max Branning (Tanya Branning/Gemma Clewes)
• Patrick Trueman (Yolande Trueman/Pat Evans)
• Laura Beale (Ian Beale/Garry Hobbs)
• Rob Minter (May Wright/Dawn Swann)
• Sonia Fowler (Martin Fowler/Naomi Julien)
• Martin Fowler (Sonia Fowler/Sarah Cairns)

Bigamy

• Charlie Cotton (Dot Cotton and Joan)

Child custody

• Courtney Mitchell (Grant and Tiffany Mitchell)
• Ben Mitchell (Phil Mitchell and Ian Beale)

Divorce

• Den and Angie Watts
• Lofty and Michelle Holloway
• Frank and Pat Butcher
• Frank and Peggy Butcher
• Phil and Nadia Mitchell
• Phil and Kathy Mitchell
• Ricky and Sam Butcher
• Grant and Sharon Mitchell
• Terry and Irene Raymond

Fostering

• Patrick Trueman and Yolande Trueman
• Mark Fowler and Ruth Fowler

Mixed-race relationships

• Carol Jackson and Alan Jackson
• Matthew Jackson and Carmel Jackson
• Michelle Fowler and Clyde Tavernier

Paternity disputes

• Denise Fox (Patrick Trueman/Aubrey Valentine/Cedric Lucas/Dwight/Earl)
• Courtney Mitchell (Grant Mitchell/Tony Hills)
• Bobby Beale (Garry Hobbs/Ian Beale)
• Simon Wicks (Pete Beale/Kenny Beale/Brian Wicks/Den Watts)
• Vicki Fowler (Den Watts)

Runaways/homelessness

• Diane Butcher
• Mary Smith
• Disa O'Brien
• Zoe Slater

Illnesses and disabilities

Asthma

• Lofty Holloway

Brain tumour

• Tom Banks

Cancer

• Peggy Mitchell
• Irene Holloway (fatal)
• Dot Branning
• Cedric Lucas (fatal)
• Evie Brown (fatal)

Deafness

• Ben Mitchell

Depression

• Frank Butcher
• Arthur Fowler

Down's syndrome

• Janet Mitchell

Heart attacks

• Roy Evans (fatal)
• Tom Clements (fatal)

HIV/AIDS

• Mark Fowler
• Joe Wallace
• Gill Fowler

Huntington's disease

• David Collins

Kidney transplant

• Ronny Ferreira (Tariq Larousi)

Mastectomy

• Peggy Mitchell

Meningitis

• Vicki Fowler
• Ben Mitchell

Multiple sclerosis

• Colin Russell
• Susan Rose

Paralysis

• Nick Cotton

Premenstrual stress syndrome

• Jackie Owen

Sickle-cell anaemia

• Lloyd Tavernier

Mental disorders

Agoraphobia

• Janine Butcher

Alzheimer's disease

• Mo Butcher

Bipolar disorder

• Jean Slater

Depression

• Sue Osman

Illiteracy

• Keith Miller
• Darren Miller

Mental breakdown

• Arthur Fowler
• Sue Osman
• Dot Cotton

Schizophrenia

• Joe Wicks

Money

Bankruptcy

• Ian Beale

Fraud

• Willy Roper

Gold digging

• Vanessa Carlton (Barry Evans)
• Janine Butcher (Barry Evans)
• SJ Fletcher (Minty Peterson)

Insurance claims

• Grant Mitchell (torched The Vic)
• Frank Butcher (hired Phil to torch the car lot)

Unemployment

• Arthur Fowler

Pregnancy

Abortion

• Stacey Slater
• Vicki Fowler
• Michelle Fowler
• Zoe Slater

Forced abortion

• Natasha Butcher (due to spina bifida)
• Etta Tavernier (due to Sickle-cell disease)

Infertility

• May Wright
• Sharon Watts

Miscarriage

• Kat Slater

Stillborn

• Viv Hobbs

Teenage pregnancy

• Michelle Fowler
• Vicki Fowler
• Sonia Jackson
• Demi Miller

Sex

Child abuse

• Kat Moon (Harry Slater)

Child of incest

• Zoe Slater

Prostitution

• Janine Butcher
• Kelly Taylor
• Zoe Slater (almost)
• Roxy Drake
• Mary Smith

Rape

• Kathy Beale (James Wilmott-Brown)
• Mo Mitchell (Trevor Morgan, Graham Foster)

Sexual harassment

• Debbie Bates

Violence

Arson

• Trevor Morgan

Attempted murder

• Phil Mitchell (Lisa Shaw)
• Trevor Morgan (Mo Morgan)

Domestic violence

• Trevor Morgan (Mo Morgan)
• Matthew Jackson (Carmel Jackson)
• Phil Mitchell (Kathy Mitchell)
• Billy Mitchell (Jamie Mitchell)
• Grant Mitchell (Sharon & Tiffany Mitchell)
• Howard (Simon Raymond)

Kidnap

• Trevor Morgan (Mo Morgan, Sean Andrews)
• Billy Jackson
• Vicki Fowler (Audrey Whittingham)
• Courtney Mitchell (Simon Raymond)

Self harm

• Kat Slater

Thanks -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 17:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

There's also Sarah's stalking of Martin, but that doesn't seem to fit in to any of the above. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 00:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

CFD notice

Removed cfdnotice, cfd has completed. --Kbdank71 15:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Please also note Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 February 20 for a review of the decision regarding Category:Actors by series. Tim! 08:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Tony Hills question

For the sake of correct categorisation, as my memory of Eastenders in 1998 is a bit hazy (I was 8), I have a question. Was Tony Hills actually gay... or bisexual? I understand that back then the word gay would have been used more explicitly than the b word, but in his relationships with Tiffany, Polly and Frankie... was he faking heterosexuality or was he genuinely attracted to them, only to later fall in love with Simon? Reply with thoughts or opinions, please. ~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 14:15, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I think he was confused, then decided he was gay... but bisexual works too... -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 14:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Should he go in both categories (Category:Fictional gay men and Category:Fictional bisexuals), one, or their parent (Category:Fictional LGBT characters)? ~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 14:36, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd go with LGBT, same as Sonia Fowler. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 21:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

In popular culture

I'm working on a page about pop culture - I need to know which characters have pop culture sections in their articles so I can incorporate them too. I have done Pauline's already. -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 19:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Dot Branning, Barry Evans, Peggy Mitchell, Sharon Rickman, Anthony Trueman, Mo Harris, Den Watts, Charlie Slater, Mark Fowler, Kat Moon, Phil Mitchell, Pat Evans, Zoe Slater, Lynne Hobbs, Beppe di Marco, Billy Mitchell and probably many more besides... — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 22:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Look!

Just wanted to show this off, because it took so long, and I love it! -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

That looks really good. Mrs Osman is ancient! Is that the one that appeared in 1989? they must have changed her from the one in 1985, as she wasn't so old. Gungadin 01:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I think it's the one from 1985... I didn't know she appeared in 1989... -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

And by the way, how do you pronounce Guizin? -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the mother appears in 1989 when the family comes to take Ali Jr away from Ali snr, or near the time Sue gets locked up. I think the father possibly appears on Ali's exit when his family drag him away from Walford for good — well two male relatives do anyway. The Osman mother from 1985 (who appeared with Ayse) wore glasses. Some of the Osmans names are'nt pronounced how you might think. Guizin is pronounced sort of like Gwizzum and they say it really quickly like they are sneezing. Emine is pronounced Eminé. They also pronounce Rayif like they are saying two separate words - Ray-If, and the little children go around calling Ali, Ali-unja. Whatever that means...probably Uncle. Every so often they all start rambling on and abusing each other in Turkish, which Sue moans about because she doesnt understand a word.Gungadin 02:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

It looks good but you can't licence it under the GNU Free Documentation License because it contains images copyrighted by the BBC. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 11:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Template:EastEnders

If I changed the template so it used the {{navigation}} template, would it be too small? It would look like this. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 21:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

It does seem a little too small, but that's probably because i'm not used to seeing it like that and also because I think i need glasses. If it reduces the amount of space it takes up then I would say use the smaller print, as i'm sure others wont notice the change in size. Gungadin 23:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I prefer it how it is; I think the other is too small. -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 11:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it's too big as it is, especially on very short pages! How about making "auto-hide"? — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 11:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

No, making it auto-hide would be rubbish - if people have an aesthetic problem with it, they already have the option to hide it. -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 17:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

So can I make it smaller or what? — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 19:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

No, just leave it! -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 17:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism to Phil Mitchell, Ben Mitchell (EastEnders) and Sonia Fowler

I have reported the constant vandaism of these articles here, and requested semi-protection for Phil Mitchell (here) and Ben Mitchell (EastEnders) (here). -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 17:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

You know I would have semi-protected them as soon as I saw that edit summary. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 18:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I keep forgetting your admin status! -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 20:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Well that's very naughty! But of course, I'm not always here to protect and block. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 21:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

CFD notice

Please see Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_February_16#Category:Television_producers_by_series for a category deletion nomination of Category:EastEnders producers. Tim! 07:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

And also: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_February_16#TV_directors_by_series

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_February_16#TV_writers_by_series

Tim! 08:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I think, if the directors, writers and producers categories are to be deleted, we should move the articles into the EastEnders people category. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 13:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Walford Death Map

I noticed that someone has made a page for the walford death map. Personally I dont see how this is notable enough to get its own page, so it should probably be nominated for deletion, but I remembered someone saying they were doing an article on EastEnders on line, so I thought i'd draw it to your attention in case you think it should be merged into something else. Gungadin 21:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, after having read the page I don't think there is anything there that anyone will want to use :) Gungadin 21:58, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

It certainly doesn't deserve its own article, but can be moved and expanded so it's about all of EastEnders online, but then cut down what it says about the Death Map, i.e. get rid of the list of names. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 19:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Listification of categories

This is something we have to due to consensus that the categories for directors, writers, producers and cast members should be lisified and deleted. We need to create List of EastEnders directors, List of EastEnders writers and List of EastEnders producers, but are we going to use the two list of characters articles for our list of cast members or should we also create List of EastEnders cast members (it would be categorised differently to the current articles)? List of EastEnders cast members already exists as a redirect to the list of characters. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 22:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

If we do create a list of cast members, I think we should list them in chronological order of joining... and we can list the years they were in it as well - same for the other articles too. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 22:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Another semi-related question... do we want to move List of previous EastEnders characters by year of exit? Such as List of past EastEnders characters by year of exit? As now I can delete the target page to make the move. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 22:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The producers, directors and writers can pretty much be put here if they still work on the show, if the list gets too big though, we can create a list (List of EastEnders crew members?) We'll keep the character lists I think, they're perfectly good enough. For incidences like David Scarboro and Danniella Westbrook, they're in the character's past, they can be mentioned on the character's page... Shame on them for leaving anyway. Also, yes it would be good if you could move it to that, please! -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 23:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

We should have a list for crew that includes people who no longer work on the show. One article for all the crew sounds good though. I wasn't suggesting we lose the character lists. We do have a problem with actors like Westbrook etc, as they're not mentioned on the list of characters and therefore we wouldn't be listifying the category correctly. That's why I was suggesting a new article for the cast members, in addition to the characters... Do we need the "by year of exit" part of that page title? — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 23:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

One of the categories was deleted rather than to be listified, but should still be included in our crew article. As long as we know who was in the category. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 14:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I suppose we don't need "by year of exit". Westbrook etc. are in the characters' articles, and to listify the category just to house the few reacsts would be unneccessary. The current character lists are enough. Also, I'm presuming all the articles in the category that needs to be listified for actors who have since had their character recast mention that they were in EastEnders anyway... that's good enough. -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 15:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Can't it just be changed to cast and character (listed by year of exit) and then Sam, Mark, Peggy and Billy Jackson etc can just appear twice on the list with their different actors? Gungadin 15:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

That is my worst nightmare. It would look so untidy. Lists of characters are better than lists of cast! -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 15:52, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

If we only have one list for characters/cast, I'd prefer it to be a list of characters. So I think we want just one list, and therefore the category for EastEnders cast members can be depopulated and speedy deleted (I can do this). It's just a shame that certain cast won't be listed. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 19:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Can we add actors such as Westbrook to the lists of characters next to the character they played after the last actor who played the character? Please don't say no, they should be listed somewhere in a list. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 19:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

No we shouldn't. It looks awful, just look at List of characters from Coronation Street! They're listed on the character articles, and EastEnders is mentioned on their articles. That's enough. -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 19:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with AP. The list should be about providing a comprehensive list, which it wont be if the primary actors arent included. It may not be as aesthetically pleasing, but that isnt the most important thing. Perhaps an asterix can be placed next to the recasts and then a "notes" section at the bottom of the article stating that the actor was recast and listing the originals.Gungadin 20:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

There's only Danniella Westbrook, David Scarboro, Jo Warne, Devon Anderson and Ashraf Karim (as well as babies) that I can think of. It'll look awful, and I don't think actors should be credited with a role that they were not associated with at the time the character left the show (or, if this suggestion applies to the present characters too, actors that are no longer synonomous with the character), shouldbe credited with the role. The list is a character list and not a cast one, so should be the CHARACTER and the last actor who played them... -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 20:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

"That's enough" - no it's not. We should have a comprehensive list, as Gungadin said. Nobody associates that Bluey guy with Billy Jackson. I'm not suggesting we do it the same as the Coronation Street article. Actors should be credited with roles that they played. That's like saying we should forget about the first nine actors who played the Doctor in Doctor Who! Or even taking Phoebe Coltman-West off the list because Freyja Coltman-West was the last of the twins to actually appear on screen. Ever since I joined Wikipedia I thought it was wrong not to have all the cast listed on the list of characters, regardless of the fact that it was a list of characters, not cast. If you don't want the previous actors' names next to the most recent actors' names then we could use reference tags and create a section for notes at the bottom. If we don't include Danniella Westbrook, David Scarboro, Jo Warne, Devon Anderson, Tony Wredden, James Martin, Joseph Shade, Alex Stevens, Casey Anne Rothery, Matthew Silver, Morgan Whittle, Carissa O'Meara, Josephine O'Meara and all the others somewhere in a list then we've let the Wikiproject down by not being comprehensive. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 20:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Personal preferences should be put aside and the decision should instead be based upon whether their inclusion will be useful for research purposes etc. I dont see any benefits in excluding important information just because it makes the list less tidy. It also goes against what the project stands for. We really have no right to choose what information will be relevant for readers based on aesthetics. Gungadin 21:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Jo Warne, Tony Wredden, James Martin, Joseph Shade, Alex Stevens, Casey Anne Rothery, Matthew Silver, Morgan Whittle, Carissa O'Meara and Josephine O'Meara are not useful at all for research purposes. The only actors who are in any way synonymous with their characters are Danniella Westbrook, Devon Anderson and David Scarboro. It seems, however, that my opinion is apparently wrong, so do what you want. All I'm saying is that it will look terrible. -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 21:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

They're no more or less useful than Matthew Ashforde, Anna Lauren, Rae Hendrie, Julian Harries, Rachel Cox, Patricia Brake, Maurice Roëves, Bill Ward, Eddie Nestor, Joseph Millson, Susan George, Rupert Hill, Graham McGrath, or several other people who appear on the list. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 22:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Surprised to see you made the changes, but once I fix the column widths it won't look so bad. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 15:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

As we are using this as our "cast list" now, I am depopulating the cast members category, and adding the soap opera actors category where necessary.... — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 16:11, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I've just created List of EastEnders crew members but it could really do with cleaning up and expanding as I didn't have much information to go on... — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 17:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)