Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography page.

Contents

[edit] Confidence scams

I set up the template Confidence Tricks for confidence scam related webpages. I figure we should probably do the same for other related crimes like Serial Killers, Bank robbers, Hackers, etc. Remember 21:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox title

I feel that the title "convicted criminal" should be inside the box instead of outside of it, but I do not know how to make this change. any code-savvy wikipedians can help? the box is at Template:Infobox Criminal. Wooyi 22:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Task forces

Here is a suggestion as to the design (largely borrowed from WikiProject Military history) regarding adding related projects in the place of "task forces" as well as additional features for {{WP Crime}}. MadMax 08:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

{{WPMILHIST
|class=
|auto=
|small=
|portal= 
|A-Class= 
|peer-review= 
|old-peer-review= 
|collaboration-candidate=
|current-collaboration=
|past-collaboration=
|attention= 
|needs-infobox=
<!-- B-Class parameters -->
|B-Class-1=
|B-Class-2=
|B-Class-3=
|B-Class-4=
|B-Class-5=
<!-- Task force parameters -->
|Australian-crime= 
|Australian-law= 
|British-crime= 
|Canadian-law= 
|Irish-Republican-Army= 
|Law= 
|Law-enforcement= 
|Terrorism= 
|Terrorism-and-counter-terrorism= 
}}

[edit] Merge proposal

[edit] Emily Brogan

The article Emily Brogan, a member of the Provisional IRA, has been tagged as non-notible and may be in danger of being deleted in the near future. MadMax 21:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I tried to find it in google but couldn't, dont know why. Wooyi 21:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Probably she is not a leader of IRA, but if she is notable the IRA project editors would come up with some printed reference. Wooyi 23:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Martha Stewart

Martha Stewart's mug shot Image:Marthastewart.jpg is being accused as a hoax, can someone please verify it? Wooyi 22:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

My comments on Wooyi's talk page:
Yes, I did remove the Stewart mug shot and, yes, I do believe it is a hoax. First of all, the image was taken from a blog...bad practice. Second, The image clearly has been doctored...it looks to me like Stewart's head has been copied from another image and pasted into a mug shot image. Third, I believe Stewart's mug shot was taken in June of 2003...the date in this image looks to be 6-21-02. I find it very inappropriate to take a "mug shot" which is most likely a hoax from somebody's blog and than upload it to a Wikipedia article and act as though it is the real thing. --MatthewUND(talk) 22:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Wooyi, I think the main problem seems to be the picture's source which is a known hoax journal which suggests the photo may have been altered with that purpose in mind. Hpwever, while I've found an additional website which uses the photo (see [1]), I'm unable to find any other photos related to her arrest including on major celebrity mugshot websites such as Mugshots.com. I have found an alternative photo of Martha Stewart in a prison jumpsuit [2], however, I'm unsure weither this is a legitimate photo or if it's in the public domain. MadMax 06:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I don't feel Wooyi is entirtly at fault. It certainly is very convincing at first glance and there is no indication it was altered on the original website (such as a disclaimer or copyright notice). However, while I would obviously agree the photo's reliability in question, it should be importent to take in consideration that it was an honest mistake. MadMax 06:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks MadMax. I will be careful about images in future. It was my careless mistake. Wooyi 05:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Al Capone

The article Al Capone, which is within our project, was under persistent vandalism and an administrator has agreed to semi-protect it. Wooyi 22:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Albert Fish

Albert Fish has been rated as "Good Article". It was created (or developed) by new member User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ). Thanks Mr. Norton! Wooyi 01:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposals

A series of articles have been proposed to be merged at WikiProject British crime. MadMax 02:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Novi Ligure Homicide

An article that is related to our project Novi Ligure Homicide is being proposed for deletion, you are welcomed to discuss it here. Thank you! Wooyi 02:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questions

Here are several questions from the unofficial WikiProject Organized crime which have not been answered.

for additional questions see the project talk page.
  1. I've reformatted the Los Angeles Mafia, however it still needs a lot of work from more knowledgeable editors. Would a more appropriate title be Los Angeles crime family or even the more specific Dragna crime family ? MadMax 11:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. I've been working on some of the lesser known Jewish mobsters of the 1930s, mostly associates of Lansky and Buchalter, and I've come across a discrepancy between a claim in a published book "Murder Inc." by Burton B. Turkus and Sid Feir which claims Philip Kovolick was killed in 1949 after shaking down New York bookies in a protection racket and a New York Times article which reports his body was found sealed in a drum in Hallandale, Florida after fleeing from an indictment to appear before a Manhattan grand jury. Any thoughts ? MadMax 19:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  3. I've been trying to add additional information to Vincenzo Aloi, another article created by User:TheChin, since it was previously redirected as a stub to the Colombo crime family. However, the article doesn't clarify weither this is Vincenzo "Buster" Aloi or his son. I'm assuming its his son, given the 1923 birthdate, however the article give a much higher position within the Colombo family as consigliere (when he is stated as a New Jersey capo in 1988 [3]) ? MadMax 14:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
  4. The date of death for Abraham Friedman differs between AmericanMafia.com and April 28 according to Albert Fried's The Rise and Fall of the Jewish Gangster in America (see [4]). MadMax 12:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
  5. I recently ran across the article Arthur Adler, however is this the same man who was killed by Sam DeStefano ? MadMax 14:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  6. There doesn't seem to be any mention of Genovese mobsters Louis DeSorbo and John Matarazzo, online or otherwise. If anyone can provide sources, please do so. MadMax 21:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  7. In trying to complete the somewhat inconsistant liniage of policy operators in New York, orgininaly begun by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), I'm unable to find who succeeded Anthony "Fat Tony" Salerno following his imprisonment in 1986. Assuming he retained control Harlem's number rackets after becoming head of the Genovese crime family during the 1970s, would it be logical to assume Vincent Gigante came into control following Salerno's downfall ? MadMax 21:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Articles for deletion

  • The following articles have been proposed for deletion:
  1. Ebony Simpson (kept), an Australian murder victim nominated on the basis of being a non notable/memorial entry. Interestingly enough, it has been proposed by one editor to merge the victim to the crime, which has apparently been becoming common practice.
  2. CrimeLine (deleted) - proposed as a non notable/unverified organization.
  3. Dean Roberts (criminal) (deleted; currently under deletion review) - proposed as a non notible drug dealer
  4. Michael Tyrell (drug trafficker) (Kept) - proposed as a non notable criminal

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by MadMax (talk • contribs) 04:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Flag question

An editor who edited Stanley Williams removed the flags in infobox and pointed out the problem here. Let's discuss here whether if we remove all flags from criminal biography infobox or keep them. Wooyi 20:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer here, Wooyi. I think the most relevant issues from my perspective are that the flags are visually "busy" and distracting, and also, to borrow from WP:FLAGS, "Flags place unequal emphasis on location, especially in infoboxes. With a flag, Paul McCartney is English Flag of England. Without a flag, he is an English rock singer and songwriter who was in The Beatles." I don't think that removing flags from every infobox on Wikipedia is a good idea, but for criminal biographies, it may make sense. Most of these folks aren't politicians, and their notability has little or nothing to do with nationality. If most pictures are worth a thousand words, these flag icons are worth at least several dozen words ;-) and it seems like overemphasis on the trivial for criminal bios. — coelacan — 01:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I've previously discussed this issue with Longhair and, while I do believe this is an issue which should be resolved, it could be useful for criminals who have died outside their native countries (as opposed to being a bit repetitive to keep for those who have died in their own respective countries). MadMax 02:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, the infoboxes should state the location of death. That info should be easily available for anyone who's looking for it, but I don't think it's exactly hidden in a flag-less infobox. Is location of death so important that there should be a colorful eye-catching icon there that demands a little piece of every reader's time? — coelacan — 06:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I haven't really any opinion on the matter one way or the other, however if there is no real practical defined use outside of lists and such, I'm not sure I understand why the flag templates exist at all if their use is discouraged on biographies. MadMax 04:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, keep in mind that while I endorse what WP:FLAGS has to say, it's just an essay, not policy. The use of the templates is discouraged by many but not by everyone. I can see how it's useful in Angela Merkel's biography. Her "Germanness" is a major component of her notability. Richard Müller's, less so. I wouldn't draw unwarrented attention to Müller's nationality with a flag icon, although I can see why Merkel's infobox has one. — coelacan — 08:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion of notability guidelines

According to discussion regarding the deletion of drug trafficker Michael Tyrell, Smerdis of Tlön mentioned there has been some discussion at Wikipedia:Notability (news) regarding the notability and sourcing policies of criminal biographies. Apparently there has been a growing opinion that articles deemed "non-notable" are to be deleted, however this is the first I've heard of it. Does anyone know anything more about this ? MadMax 02:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It is very hard to draw a line, and the proposed Wikipedia:Notability (news) was not adopted as a policy. WP:BIO's primary criteron says for a person to be notable it must be subject of secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject and it also says mentioning of the person in sources cannot be incidental. The following special criterion did not cover criminals, however. I guess that a notable criminal should be a primary subject of articles in at least two reliable newspapers. I also think that non-notable local newspapers probably don't count. For the case of Michael Tyrell (drug trafficker) it looks like it has been covered as main subject in articles on some national newspapers that have entries on wikipedia themselves, so I guess it should be kept. Wooyi 04:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Just to follow up a sec, we're currently looking at merging WP:N and WP:INCLUSION into a revised general guideline on notability. The main standard in WP:INCLUSION is that an article should include more than one independently published verifiable reference and the references should not all be published simultaneously (eg it shouldn't be three different papers reporting on the same wire story on the same day). In the specific case of Michael Tyrell's article above, the references included appear to span a two year time frame, so my guess is it would pass both WP:INCLUSION and WP:N. Dugwiki 17:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
The problem, as I see it, is that it's a fairly trivial achievement for a criminal to meet WP:BIO. Just about any homicide or major robbery in a city with two media outlets would appear to make it; if it's covered in both, this criminal deserves an encyclopedia article under that standard. This is why I tend to feel that criminals need to have some kind of evidence of lasting interest in order to be worthy of an article. What should those criteria be? Idunno. - Smerdis of Tlön 15:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
To reply to Smerdis above, note that both WP:INCLUSION and WP:N recommend that the references be spread out a little over time. Multiple newspapers publishing the same story on the same day or two day period wouldn't count. That's intended to weed out some of the "one shot" crime stories and such. It won't weed out every local crime story, but it does catch a number of them. Dugwiki 16:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you are right, it does. It may, though, still make every criminal who goes to trial or receives a sentence a potential encyclopedia subject. This will happen some time after the crime and the arrest, and usually will be covered independently by the local media. This, too, sets the bar too low, at least in my opinion. - Smerdis of Tlön 16:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree, the bar is intentionally low. It's set low since a low requirement is all that appears currently likely to receive strong consensus. Articles about cases which minimally pass WP:N and WP:INCLUSION might still not be considered good articles for Wikipedia by all editors, and such controversial cases are going to require more detailed debate beyond the scope of the general guidelines. So yes, the guidelines err on the side of over-inclusion. Dugwiki 17:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Create Category:Crimes by year ?

While categorizing an article about a particular crime, I noticed that there doesn't seem to be a category for the year of the crime. Almost everything in Wikipedia has a category indicating the associated year of the event/birth/creation/etc, so it looks like an oversight that nobody has created Category:Crimes by year or something similar.

I was pointed to your project as the one that would likely have the most significant influence on maintaining such a category, so what do you guys think? Currently the only option for categorizing crimes by year is to put them under the "year by country" category, such as Category:1977 in the United States for a US crime that occured in 1977. It might be useful as a way to study crimes in a similar historical context, and would be a consistent category tag that basically any crime event article could include. Dugwiki 21:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Seems like a logical category to create. MadMax 04:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree that creating a "crimes by year" category is reasonable and necessary, go for it. Wooyi 03:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the positive feedback. I'll probably start on it today or tomorrow using a template system similar to Category:Works by year.

Ok, I've set up the basic category templates for Category:Crimes by year. It should be fairly straightforward. Each yearly category uses Template:crimesyr for its format. Feel free to adjust the templates I set up as desired.

I also in the descriptions said that the categories should use the year of occurence of the crime, and for articles about a serial set of crimes use the year of the first crime in the series. (Otherwise you'll end up with a bunch of categories for crimes that span a number of years).

The next step is simply to start populating the categories and creating new categories using the templates as needed. I'll start doing some of that, but please feel free to add them as you find articles with missing crime years.

Finally, I also created Category:Year of crime missing to house articles which currently do not include the year the crime occured. This is similar to Category:Year of birth missing and is meant to be a temporary placeholder until the year can be included in the article. Dugwiki 19:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FYI on alleged crimes

In the course of the above categorization of Category:Crimes by year I've noticed a few articles which allege that someone committed a crime, such as talking about the subject being sued or indicted, but for which no conviction resulted. I just wanted to make a general caution that unless an article has verifiable information that the subject was convicted of a crime they should not be labelled with "crime" categories. Otherwise you're basically calling that person or company "criminals" without providing actual verified information that they are officially criminals.

That's not to say there aren't alternatives. For example, Category:Scandals can be used for articles about people or companies who receive negative public attention for being accused of committing a crime, regardless of whether or not they receive a conviction. I would recommend using that category for public allegations, and reserving "criminal" categories for people and organizations who are legally considered criminals. Dugwiki 21:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Crimes by year and Category:Criminals similarities

I noticed in the course of populating Category:Crimes by year that a lot of the articles involving specific crimes are actually biographical articles about the associated criminals. Thus many of the "crimes" articles appear instead under Category:Criminals. That's not a problem, per se, but it does point out that a good place to look for articles to populate Category:Crimes by year is Category:Criminals. Dugwiki 17:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lewis Libby controversy

Some editors repeatedly tried to eliminate the "charge" and "penalty" row from the infobox in the article Lewis Libby, an article in the scope of the project. Please take a look at it and express your opinion here. Thanks! Wooyi 19:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template size

Can someone please take a look at this header? It's way too big. Thanks. Xiner (talk) 00:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but I don't know how to fix templates. If someone does please decrease the size of that row. Thanks! Wooyi 20:21, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sasha Spesivtsev

I came across an article Sasha Spesivtsev, saying he was born in 1970, but some say it is 1969. Can someone check and clarify on this? Thanks! Wooyi 20:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of Italian-American mobsters

An ongoing discussion at the List of Italian-American mobsters is discussing how the list may be removed for supposed violations of European hate speach laws. MadMax 22:48, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article

The article on the Argentinian police officer who was a perpetrator during Dirty War, Miguel Etchecolatz has just passed the GA nomination and became a Good Article. WooyiTalk, Editor review 02:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] William Bennest

I have created this article: all we need to do now is to expand it, keeping it within WP:BLP policies. This one will be hard, because so far there is only one source on the article, and finding other sources is hard.

Please see the talk page of the article. --SunStar Net talk 15:53, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category deletions for Category:Gang members by affiliation and its subcategories

An editor has recently nominated Category:Gang members by affiliation and its subcategories Category:Vice Lords, Category:Gangster Disciples, Category:Crips and Category:Bloods. MadMax 03:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

They should not be deleted, as they are important to categorize organized crime articles. WooyiTalk, Editor review 03:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Smaller WikiProject banner

Hi all --- does {{WP Crime}} have an option (e.g. something similar to the standard as "small=yes") to make the box small and right-aligned? If not, could someone who's good with templates add one? Thanks! cab 23:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes I noticed this too... is there a small banner for use? MrMacMan Talk 03:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Virginia Tech Massacre

The motives section of the Virginia Tech Massacre was deleted probably because the article was too long. Stalking is a serious issue particularly on college campuses. The narrative in the section on Cho's motives alluded to his stalking female students and disturbing behavior in the classroom. The section was probably deleted to make the article shorter, but by making the article shorter it left out valuable information that may prevent further death. By minimizing the importance of stalking incidents, females do not report the incidents, do not go to court to get a protection order, no action is taken against the stalker (including serious psychiatric intervention) and sometimes this leads to deadly consequences. In fact, if only a single female were killed by a stalker or a domestic violence incident, there would not even be a reference in Wikipedia. In some jurisdictions, reports of stalking result in legal intervention and in others multiple reports accumulate and no action is taken. If more follow-up had been done in 2005 when the first complaints were made against Cho perhaps 33 more people would be alive today. Cherylyoung 10:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I moved this to the talk page from the Project page. Quadzilla99 11:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, I personally don't think stalking played a role in the massacre. There are tons of stalkers in our country, many of them are good people who are just obsessed with another person of the opposite sex. There are stalkers who intimidate the victims, it happens. But in general, most stalkers don't kill. When this massacre happened, some even blamed Asians, as an Asian myself I could not understand it. Hopefully it would not stir up a moral panic against stalkers, either. WooyiTalk, Editor review 20:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes stalking does lead to murder. Sometimes after the stalker murders one person he goes on to murdering others. Cho photographed female students legs under the desk in Niki Giovanni's class. He looked up the email address of 2 female students and even found out personal information about their families. The second female student complained in 2005 because Cho showed up at her dorm room after having sent her the disturbing IM's. Andy Koch, Cho's roommate at the time said that he quit bringing females to the dorm because Cho would harass them. It is possible that Cho was actually stalking Heather Haugh, Emily Hilscher's roommate. If more attention in the investigation is focused on stalking, perhaps Virginia will re-examine their laws for personal protection orders. In Michigan 2 girls were being stalked and given death threats on the answering machine with a countdown of days until they would die. Ten days, nine days etc. A third girl was killed on the last day. Because of that I spent a lot of effort in 1994 to see that the laws for personal protection orders, truth in sentencing and sentencing guidelines were passed. Stalking is a serious issue. Cherylyoung 05:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I will participate in the Criminal Biography section. Cherylyoung 05:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recognized content

I'm starting a new section for recognized content such as GAs and FAs, feel free to comment/revert. I think the section should only list content that was improved or developed by the project. Rather than articles that just falls under the scope. I'm not wed to the idea so feel free to comment. Incidentally Matthew Cox is now a GA. Quadzilla99 13:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template sharing

Hi. I think if your scope is mostly made up of biographical articles, you ought to consider becoming an official workgroup of WikiProject Biography and sharing our wonderful template {{WPBiography}}. Please respond at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography or Template talk:WPBiography if you are interested. Thank you. --kingboyk 16:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

The project, at least in my own view, covers both criminal biographies as well as organizations, crimes and other topics related to true crime and criminology. However, I'd certainly be in favor of the project working with WPP:BIO. MadMax 16:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
That wouldn't preclude working with us. Either you can make use of our non-bio=yes parameter for articles which aren't biographical, or you could maybe set up a workgroup with us for just the biographies. (Although I do note that your project's title is specifically "Criminal Biography" :)) --kingboyk 16:37, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Can I second that proposal? Your project currently only has 42 articles that are bannered, so the change wouldn't be very difficult... -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 20:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I'd rather maintain an independent project personally. Quadzilla99 22:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Columbine High School massacre FAR

Columbine High School massacre has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it should be kept since the reference thing can be gradually improved by adding them. Also only a minor portion of the article has alleged problems, the whole thing I think should not be delisted. WooyiTalk, Editor review 20:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference

A great resource was recently pointed out by Mikedash as the Library of Congress recently established a website for its newspaper digitisation project. This is especially helpful for those using the New York Times and Boston Herald from ProQuest, as the website itself currently features 25 major newspapers between 1900-1910. MadMax 20:08, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Harry Shapiro (American criminal) nominated for deletion

An AFD of a criminal's biography, Harry Shapiro (American criminal) has been proposed for deletion in this discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harry Shapiro (American criminal). You are welcome to comment there. WooyiTalk, Editor review 02:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish-American organized crime

There is currently a debate to discuss moving the article title of Jewish-American organized crime to American Jews in organized crime. The reasoning for this move is to provide what has been refered to as a conspiritorial and almost accusatory title. Personally, I feel this is the same argument which has been brought up time and again for virtually every ethnic-related organized crime topic for more then two years now. The page move is based on POV, however I don't feel the title is anymore "offensive" then African-American organized crime or Greek-American organized crime nor do the articles serve to "decide the name of articles that effect entire ETHNIC GROUPS and RELIGIONS".

However, a point was brought up regarding Mafia and the Irish Mob and I think these articles should be broken up between there U.S. and international equivalants (ex. Irish-American organized crime and Italian-American organized crime). MadMax 05:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mass deletion/renaming of criminal and street gang related articles

Another editor has yet again nominated Category:Gangs by ethnicity as well as virtualy all ethnic and historically related street gang categorires on Wikipedia. I feel this is a fairly serious issue which is becoming more and more frequent in recent months. MadMax 19:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Matthew Cox

I'm currently trying to get this article up to FA length, but I'm having trouble getting new sources. To clarify I've scoured pretty much everything that was released up to mid April, any help would be appreciated. Quadzilla99 22:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

To clarify more news should be coming out on him (he was recently captured) but I haven't found any yet. Quadzilla99 22:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can dig up. MadMax 04:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Buster from Chicago

An editor recently left me a message regarding Buster from Chicago and his suggestion, according to Jay Robert Nash, that his identity may have been Leo Vincent Brothers. I only had Carl Sifakis's "The Mafia Encyclopedia" to go by, however does anyone have any sources that can clarify this ? MadMax 05:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment

Should we be using the 1.0 bot (Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Using the bot) to start assessing the Criminal biography articles? Remember 18:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

  • That would probably be a good idea and, personally speaking, I do find it difficult to determine the importance of artices when entering a grade by hand. I wonder if it would be possible to use a bot to tag the {{WP Crime}} on article in the crime categories as well ? MadMax 04:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Polish Crime

I have an article which keeps being blocked which I would like to add to the Polish Crime section. It is referenced, notable, and verifiable and describes the life of Julian Dobrowolski. Right now though, it is blocked from being remade. I was advised to contact the Criminal WikiProject on the subject and would really like some help regarding this situation... Benek69 18:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC) Thanks

[edit] Error in Chris Benoit Article

There is an error in the Chris Benoit article and since its talk page is locked I'm putting this on your page. It says he killed himself late Saturday or early Sunday. That is WRONG! He killed his son at those times. He killed himself on Monday. How can a dead man send text messages?

[edit] Misuse of Infobox criminal

WikiProject Criminal Biography input at Misuse of Infobox criminal would be welcome. -- Jreferee (Talk) 17:57, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Charles Whitman

I was hoping to bring Charles Whitman to Good Article status soon, in the hopes of one day possibly reaching FA if I can only find a way to track down his relatives and get PD releases for the photos (because the FU photos are what's bogging us down right now). It's been a pet wiki article for me for ages, I have 315 edits that have made up most of what the page is Is thnow (and another 119 edits to the talk page, holy crap) - and I would very much appreciate constructive criticism on how to improve it. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 07:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tyrone Noling AfD

I didn't see a Crime-related deletions list, so I'm posting here. Thought your group may be able to provide insight into the AfD for Tyrone Noling and whether the Ohio Supreme Court ruling of his death sentence is notable. Canuckle 22:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion sorting

Hi, a request for a crime related deletion sorting list was made at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Deletion sorting#Crime deletion sorting. It sounds like a good idea as there as there is a steady flow of these, so here it is: Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Crime. It is empty at the moment. Please notify any other WikiProjects that will also be interested in this new list. John Vandenberg 15:13, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] American Serial Killers

I have been trying to enter the Serial Killer Infobox including a photo for all of the serial killers listed under the American serial killers category. This of course takes a lot of time. I was wondering if anyone would like to help out? I would like to do this for serial killers from all countries eventually. Jmm6f488 20:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serial Killer Task Force Up and Running

The Serial Killer Task Force is up and running though still a little under construction come and check it out and feel free to join. Jmm6f488 08:38, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mountain Meadows massacre

I have requested a peer review for the Mountain Meadows massacre article. I am placing this here in hopes editors can take a look at the article's treatment of the event. Any feedback is appreciated. --Robbie Giles 13:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I put up a CFD

Here suggesting that Category:Parents who murdered their children be renamed Category:Parents who committed filicide. I really don't know how CFD works (I've never listed anything there before), so I could use some help, and of course input. Thanks. Nosleep1234 09:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC) Thank you for the input. Nosleep1234 19:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I won't get involved at the moment (it's probably over by now anyway) but I don't really think either name is suitable. You should find an appropriate word like 'filicidals'. Filicide can only be committed by parents anyway, so saying 'parents who committed' is an unnecessary pre-statement. It's like writing 'criminals who committed homicide'. Unfortunately it doesn't look very good and I'm not even sure if it's a word. People write 'murderers' or (I think) 'manslaughterers' (lol) rather than 'homicidals' for example. Homicide is either used as a noun for an act or an adjective ('he's homicidal') but not as a noun identifying a person so far as I'm aware. Whatever category that you come up with, don't include 'parents' in the name, but instead, put it inside the 'parents' category if there is one in existance, or something like 'child crimes' or 'criminal parents' or something like that. Whatever is appropriate, since I am no familiar with such categories. Tyciol 15:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rock Springs massacre

Hello everyone. The article Rock Springs massacre, while not tagged by this project probably falls within its scope. It is a current Featured article candidate, if anyone here has the time comments would be appreciated after reviewing the featured article criteria and comparing those to the article. You can see its entry and participate in the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rock Springs massacre. This message is an attempt to jumpstart lagging discussion, talk page posts on WikiProject pages which have tagged the article went unnoticed as the three projects are less than active at this juncture. Thanks ahead of time. IvoShandor 09:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured article review of Schabir Shaik trial

Schabir Shaik trial has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. — Black Falcon (Talk) 05:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where was info found

I was curious about the information given on a conviction in Indianapolis. In all my research including his brother Mikal's book there is never a mention of this and I'm wondering where the contributor obtained this particular information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jarrodssis (talk • contribs) 18:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Is this woman in prison now? She was a minor when she comitted the crime and obviously insane. This is a miscarriage of justice under US law.70.20.133.75 05:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move proposal

  • I'm not sure where to put this, however Talk:1871 in organized crime and Talk:1872 in organized crime should be moved to 1871 in organized crime and 1872 in organized crime respectivly. 71.184.36.216 03:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tables Galore

I've been adding crime stats tables to cities. I think they go great in the articles. Check them out: West Palm Beach, Florida Fort Myers, Florida Opa Locka, Florida etc...

I suggest you do the same in your hometowns! ReignMan 03:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mass deletion of criminals

I've updated the listing of crime-related articles on AFD. Members of the project and its related Wikiprojects that there seems to be a lot of criminal biographies being listed for deletion at present on the basis of being non-notable, despite many of these having cited references and sources. What is disturbing, at least from my perspective, is the comments which have been made by users in these debates who simply feel there are "too many" biographies on criminals, however well it meets Wikipedia's notability guidelines. 71.184.39.74 23:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assistance

Uh a vigilante editor has gone off and Wikified every bit of the "Craigslist Killing" including both the victim and the perp. I'm not really for Encyclopedifying peoples lives especially when the criminal act is isolated and no actual motive has been released. I would nominate both the individuals articles for deletion and simply combine their information into the "Craigslist Killing" article. I ask this Wikiproject to assist in overseeing these pages based on their knowledge of other similar Wikified crimes. 64.122.208.184 16:48, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Charles Manson

We have nominated this article for Good Article status. Anyone who hasn't spent a lot of time working on this article is asked to drop by Charles Manson, Wikipedia:Good article nominations#Law and Talk:Charles Manson to look it over and leave comments. Thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 21:59, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1985 Rajneeshee assassination plot

[edit] Robert A. Hawkins

There is some debate over the correct use of infoboxes in relation to this subject. As it falls under your Wikiproject I thought you might be able to contribute to the debate on which is the best manner to proceed with the article. Parsival74 (talk) 21:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lo Piccolo images

The images Image:Lo_Piccolo_photofit.jpg and Image:Lo_Piccolo_arrest.jpg have been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. - Mafia Expert (talk) 13:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the Black P Stone page

who wrote the page page on the Black P Stones? Whom ever did it, plagiarized and did not properly site the original author, Alex Alonso of StreetGangs.com. If you visit the page on the Black P Stones at http://www.streetgangs.com/bloods/bpsn.html you will see the information was taken word for word and four other sources are noted at the bottom of the page, omitting the true author, Alex Alonso.

What type of editors does wikipedia employ here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.254.49 (talk) 08:44, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need to prove the Black Guerilla Family is a gang.

There is a difference between a revolutionary organization and a gang. The existence of an article on the Black Guerrilla Family, identifying them as a gang, is incredibly problematic, considering prison administrations identify political inmates as part of this group (as part of their prison gang validation strategy) and then confine them to segregation cells (SHU) indefinitely. The lack of citations, evidence, and scholarship in this article only continues this misidentification and contributes to the misery of such prisoners. What 'gang-related' activities do members of this 'gang' engage in? Where is the evidence?

Let's be a bit more responsible, no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.15.167 (talk) 00:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] jones town

I have seen no mention of the us army sending in a company from Panama headed by a Capt. H.C.S. whose mission was to investigate an armed conflict within the town. they landed by air transport 3 miles from the settlement. capt. hcs deployed his men around the town then sent in a team to access the situation. the lieutenant name with held was so rattled at what he saw that he broke radio code and told the capt about the dead. the capt organized his company to complete a house by house search for combantants -- none were found. the located an 83 year old lady who was hidden under the bed. the cpt reported the crime scene, in two days was told to leave some soldiers for body detail and the rest of the company was ordered back to base in Panama. vv

[edit] Nominations?

How do I nominate School shootings to be upgraded from "start"? - If this is it then I nominate the article and am currently working on it. Also I am a new member so be nice! LOTRrules (talk) 22:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Shame no-one had the courtesy to respond. Sorry newbie mistake I looked at the wrong page, it's good article nominations page I wanted. LOTRrules (talk) 21:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nomination of "Justina Morales"

I would like to see the "Justina Morales" page tagged in the same manner as the "Nixzmary Brown" reference, both of which I've contributed to recently in light of Nixzmary's ongoing trial, and a comparison to Justina Morales by columnist Andrea Peyser. Thank you.--MurderWatcher1 (talk) 20:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2008 Lane Bryant shooting

I'd have thought this to receive more attention (likely because it wasn't on the MP)... Circeus (talk) 00:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

There's been some updates on it since. Anybody up to updating the article? Circeus (talk) 23:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mexican Mafia

Mexican Mafia needs work. A lot of it. Calvin 1998 Talk Contribs 06:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject British crime

Can a member of this wikiproject take over the running of the British crime wikiproject and possibly merge it with the general wikiproject on crime. This is because I am taking a long break from wikipedia and I don't know when I shall be returning.--Lucy-marie (talk) 14:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yigal Amir

There is an issue with an anon problem removing the "Infobox Crime" time and again, even though the recommendation was to add the infobox for convicted murderers. I would appreciate if someone can take a look, also on the talk page. gidonb (talk) 00:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Update on The Criminal justice Portal

[edit] AfD nomination of Timothy Shepherd

An editor has nominated Timothy Shepherd, an article which relates to this WikiProject, for deletion. Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Timothy Shepherd Thanks, Johntex\talk 22:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack on FAC

FYI, I have nominated the article 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack for consideration at WP:FAC. Your comments at the FAC discussion page would be appreciated. Cirt (talk) 09:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed amendment to notability guidelines

There have been many arguments at multiple biographical AfDs about articles on the victims of murders that have received significant press coverage. I have, in conjunction with other editors, formulated a guideline proposal at User:Fritzpoll/Notability (criminal acts) which would potentially impact on some of the work you do here. I would like to ask people from here to come, read the proposed guideline and make comments or suggestions on the talk page. Your more expert feedback would be most welcome. Best wishes - Fritzpoll (talk) 12:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP Crime

For reasons I haven't been completely successful in tracking down, {{WP Crime}} generates Pages that link to Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Geelong. I found some causes at Template:Crime opentask and Template:British crime opentask modified them. These templates also might be part of the problem. Anyway, please take a look and see if you can if fix. Thanks. GregManninLB (talk) 01:19, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New form of human trafficking

In February, a travel agent in Ghana chartered a Ghana International Airlines aircraft on the pretext that a group of 'Ghanian' tourists would be spending two weeks in Barbados. The aircraft left Ghana around 1 Feb 08, and was supposed to return to Barbados to 1) deliver any group of 'tourists' and 2) take the first lot back to Ghana. The aircraft didn't arrive as expected on 15 February, and to this day (15 April 08) most of those 'tourists', who turned out end up coming from both Ghana and Nigeria, are still stranded in Barbados, with the Ghanian government dragging its heels on their return. The rest have basically left Barbados for other countries (not long after arriving there). Due to the fact many of these 'tourists' are now working in Barbados (construction, etc), and some have gone on the record that they don't want to go back to Ghana, they want to be allowed to stay in Barbados to work, it is now believed that this is a new form of human trafficking. I think this would make an interesting addition to the Human trafficking article, and could also help build a Barbados-Ghana relations article as well. Having little time to add this, I am posting this at the following: Talk:Human trafficking, WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, WikiProject Sociology, WikiProject International relations, WikiProject African diaspora, WikiProject Human rights. Perhaps contributors to the Human trafficking article or wikiprojects could look at it further and include it in the article, as this hasn't gathered much attention outside of Barbados and Ghana, and if it is human trafficking, it will change the modus operandi of traffickers. Searches of google and google news for barbados+ghana will return plenty of results, mainly from Ghana or Barbados which can be used. --Россавиа Диалог 17:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Range of crimes/Notability/POV

At present this project appears to be proceeding without a clear limit to its range.

  1. What crimes make the grade?

speeding?, littering, jaywalking, shoplifting, attempting to kill Hitler?, obstructing tanks in Tianamin Square?, following Falung Gong in China?, not being a Roman Catholic in Franco's Spain?, sodomy where and when it was/is illegal?, adultery?, heresy?, witchcraft?

  1. Do the following peoples qualify as criminals? Eric the Red exiled for killing Thorgest in a fight over a borrowed shovel?, St Peter crucified by Roman authorities, St James as he was charged with "breaking the law" before being stoned?, Alexander Solzenitzen and other political dissidents in the former Communist Bloc sentenced to Siberian gulags or killed by the Stasi?

I ask because the application of the term "criminal" has negative connotations and if it is being applied selectively in ways that amount to WP:OR then the wider WP community will need to consider how best to approach this project. The term "criminal" seems to be most accuarately applied to someone found guilty of a crime by an authority - any crime ruled as such by any legal authority in any period of history in any culture. The application of this NPOV use of the term would render this project rather large. And perhaps understandably lead to many contributors to biographies protesting. How do regular contributors to this project address the issues raised here? SmithBlue (talk) 03:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Miscarriage of justice

I am working on several wikipedia pages about people in jail who are probably innocent. People have been connecting them to this crime project. That is fine but please realise that there also exist people who, even if they are officially speaking "convicted criminals", probably did not commit any crimes whatsoever; sometimes the crimes they are supposed to have committed probably did not even exist. To mention my two favourite famous non-criminals: Lucia de Berk, Kevin Sweeney case. Gill110951 (talk) 19:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject Prisons

If anyone's interested, I've proposed a new wikiproject for the creation of articles regarding specific prisons here. --Cdogsimmons (talk) 20:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)