Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities/Archive 1

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Ram-Man's comment and subsequent discussion

I don't know if anyone will read and respond to this before I just go ahead and figure out what to do, but I have a problem. I was working on the Towns and Cities of Lancaster County, Pennsylvania using the data provided by the United States Census Bureau. Now the state is divided up into governing bodies lower than the county. Such bodies include boroughs, townships, and CDP (not sure what it stands for). The problem is this. Townships are not unique to one and only one place. That is, a simple city name of "CITY, STATE" will not be sufficient uniquely identify a city. In fact some towns, like Ephrata, Pennsylvania are both a borough and a township. This may not pose a problem for some towns (like Ephrata), but the township name may be repeated in various counties across the state. Thus, a person looking for Brecknock in Allegheny County may get the page for the Brecknock in Lancaster County, and unless they are a native, they won't know the data is the wrong data. And the people in each township *think* that they live in *the* Brecknock. Also, the famed Intercourse, Pennsylvania is not even an official borough or township. There are many towns that are like that. My guess is that they simply lack a governing body in the town (too small or whatever). But these names could theoretically be used as official names elsewhere causing a naming conflict. I am almost positive that similar naming conflicts can exist in other states (but maybe not all). Is the solution to develop a different (and much more cumbersome) naming system? How can we solve this problem? Or do we just ignore it? -- Ram-Man Dated September 21, 2002

I ran into the same problem in Connecticut, where there are towns and townships and boroughs with the same name. We probably ought to just create one page for all of them and indicate on that page that there are different places. -- Zoe Dated September 22, 2002

I don't feel right about that, especially since one township name in PA is used by like 5 or 6 counties. That suggests to me that we should have some kind of naming system to keep them apart. A disambiguation page is fine, but they should all have unique names. Somehow we need to have the township , the county and state. Take "Washington township" for example. We could have [[Washington, Pennsylvania (Lancaster County)]] or [[Washington, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania]]. Does it matter? But for something simple like the town I was born in, Ephrata, Pennsylvania should include both the township and the borough on the same page and just explain the differences under the "Law and Government" heading. - User:Ram-Man September 22, 2002

Well, then I vote for Washington, Pennsylvania (Lancaster County). -- Zoe September 22, 2002

Eclecticology reports going off-track

I got off track trying to track down the Brecknock Townships that you mentioned, and could not find one in Allegheny County as you suggested. I did find one in Berks County which makes mere sense since it is adjacent to Lancaster County, and the two townships are themselves adjecent. See http://pasdc.hbg.psu.edu/pasdc/Search/Search.html and http://dgmweb.net/genealogy/6/PA/PA-Cos.htm

In any event and in both occurrences of Brecknock the word "Township" is a part of the name, so it must be a part of the article title in the same way that the word county is a part of a county's name. This is not the case for most boroughs but using it is certainly a consideration when it is something distinct from the city or town. The word "borough" seems to mean different things in different places though and I would avoid it unless it's absolutely necessary. I did raise the issue during the course of the city name disambiguation discussion, and proposed the [city, county, state] format when it would be needed because there are two or more uses of the same name in the same state. Based on the above this would give us [Brecknock Township, Lancaster, Pennsylvania] and [Brecknock Township, Berks, Pennsylvania]] The word "county" can be left out here since it's only purpose is as a disambiguator, but I still tend to use it for counties whose name is the same as that of a state. For Ephrata you would then have [Ephrata, Pennsylvania], [Ephrata Township, Pennsylvania] and [Ephrata, Washington]. I hope this helps. Eclecticology

PS- I've actually visited Ephrata, PA! Reading Thomas Mann's novel Doctor Faustus had made me curious about hearing Beissel's musical style.

PS2- CDP = Census Designated Place.

Dated September 22, 2002 by User:Eclecticology

Ram-Man's comment on redundancy of Ephrata

It seems a waste to me to have both [Ephrata, Pennsylvania], [Ephrata Township, Pennsylvania]. Wouldn't it be simple to just add a new heading to the city which explains the cities within a township (at least in this context a township includes multiple towns and may or may not be a town itself). Or even simpler, forget making two, just put the information in under the Government heading. If we do separate them, there is very little to say in an article on [Ephrata Township, Pennsylvania]. It would be a poor excuse for an article. Oh, and I prefer the city, county, state format with the word "County" removed. -- Ram-Man

For sure. Especially if the town is in the township of the same name. There's always a need to look at each case on its own merits. If you combine them now, nothing prevents us at a later time from dividing them when there is adequate material. Eclecticology